Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Widewing on August 12, 2006, 01:18:48 AM
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Flying light bombers as fighters
One of my favortite things to do in the MA from time to time is to take up a single-engine dive bomber or light bomber and use specifically as a fighter.
Typically, I include the SBD-5, TBM-3 and IL-2 in this group.
Last evening, I flew an SBD defending a base against a steady stream of incoming enemy fighters and bomber formations. Generally, I'll climb out to about 8,000 feet and await the incoming aircraft.
I managed to kill a Spit16 and a Niki, both being easy kills as they attempted to turn with the SBD. Unless you are flying a Zero or Hurricane, don't do that.... I added an assist on a Tiffie and had killed an Ostwind prior to that.
Later, I went offline and tested the SBD and the TBM for turn radius and turn rate. MOSQ had tested the SBD recently and with full flaps generated a turn radius of 397 feet, at 17.3 degrees/second @ 82 mph.
I believe that MOSQ had allowed his speed to degrade too much. I was able to generate a radius of 387 feet at 19.3 degrees/second @ 89 mph.
With four notches of flaps, I saw 405 feet at 19.9 degrees/sec ond @ 96 mph.
For the TBM with full flaps, I recorded 391 feet at 20.2 degrees/second @ 94 mph. The TBM has over 600 more horsepower than the SBD, and this added thrust shows up as an advantage in turn rate.
Compare those numbers to the Spit16: 450 ft, 19.9 degrees/sec @ 107 mph. The Niki can do at least 414 ft, 22.5 degrees/sec at 111 mph.
Many players see planes like the SBD and TBM and assume they will be easy kills. If they fail to maintain a significant speed advantage, they can find themselves in deep trouble.
My regards,
Widewing
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i seen wat they can do and dont look at them as a easy meal, if they had the 6 50s(i dont remember if they do) u wouldnt have a prob racking up.
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Weren't there Navy pilots that got multiple Zero kills in the SBD in the early part of the war--say Coral Sea, etc.? Made some of 'em Wildcat pilots if I remember correctly...
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I know for a while SBDs were used to intercept Kates and Vals.
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My favorite bomber/fighter must be the D3A, it's great fun to see a Hurrican trying to turn with you!
And when they do seem to turn closer, add 1 notch of flaps and KAPOW there you have him again :lol
It does take awhile for those 2x.303's to do some damage though
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A20 is fun as well, but I'm a sucker for twin engines.
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I wish i had seen this earlier. I have recently felt the wrath of Furball's TBM. Its a biatch if you dont expect it!
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SBD eats the TBM Reynolds...
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I like using the IL-2 for defense on bases that are under CV attack. They are good for killing LVT's
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Originally posted by Angus
SBD eats the TBM Reynolds...
I was in a 109 G14 vs a TBM. I underestimated it at slow speed... Youve seen the pictures.
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I sometimes like to use my B-26 as a fighter usually if I have some how managed to lose my drones. One time I managed to get onto a P51's six when he got low and slow, chased him down and blasted him :D On another ocation I had a good 10 minuit fight in my Boston 3 vs a P51 I would have had him if only the Boston had better guns, I raked his belly with a real impressive looking burst of 303 fire but not a ounce of damage on his end :) Finally after turn after turn of on the deck hand cramping rudder (I wish I had peddles) twisting fighting he finallly got a good shot on my wing and I went down.
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Originally posted by Reynolds
I was in a 109 G14 vs a TBM. I underestimated it at slow speed... Youve seen the pictures.
So, you screwed up ;)
Well, if you had swapped with Furbie, the outcome would have been the same.
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Originally posted by Flayed1
I sometimes like to use my B-26 as a fighter usually if I have some how managed to lose my drones. One time I managed to get onto a P51's six when he got low and slow, chased him down and blasted him :D On another ocation I had a good 10 minuit fight in my Boston 3 vs a P51 I would have had him if only the Boston had better guns, I raked his belly with a real impressive looking burst of 303 fire but not a ounce of damage on his end :) Finally after turn after turn of on the deck hand cramping rudder (I wish I had peddles) twisting fighting he finallly got a good shot on my wing and I went down.
I do the B-26 thing too Flayed. It is not that bad for a bomber to use as a fighter. When I was in Nazgul I shot down two Niki's doing 300mph in a climb, clearing a then squaddie. I didn't land, La7 blindsided me. But this thing can get nasty if one chooses to fly it as such.
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Hehe, memorable as it is, I once killed Fester's Ta-152 in a B26 :D
That's not the most memorable klill though, hehehe.
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you know I gotta ask, how do you accurately measure the turn radius? it's not like there are tape measures built into AH.
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what i love when flying B26's is when if a fighter manages to get by me on their first pass and they go under me to extend. And Continue to fly level i just nose down a bit aim and BLAM! I get my kill.:D :lol
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Originally posted by Mustaine
it's not like there are tape measures built into AH.
....fortunately for you :lol :t
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I'd like to have the single 20mm MG FF option to JU88.
-C+
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Originally posted by Furball
....fortunately for you :lol :t
is that your best attempt at zinging me back :lol :p
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I guess "flying" LW for years beat the E-fighting style into me so hard that whenever I am in a plane that has better vertical performance than the one I'm fighting I'll use it.
None of those bombers has the power to hold the nose up to match any fighter in the game, which is why they are easy meat. The problem is most people in the game don't realize that.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
is that your best attempt at zinging me back :lol :p
zinging you back?
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Originally posted by Furball
zinging you back?
after you not replying to the revor comment i wasn't sure what you were up to... waiting to strike i thought :lol
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oh ok, didnt really have a comeback - i dont even know who revor is apart from some tard that got banned.
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Originally posted by Furball
oh ok, didnt really have a comeback - i dont even know who revor is apart from some tard that got banned.
i didn't either here :rofl :aok
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Oh I almost forgot 1 of the best runs I had. I was in a single JU-88 and 2 YAK-9U's came after me.. They must have been noobs or I am actually that damn good but I managed to make one auger into the water and shot the other down with that tiny nose gun lol :rofl. Went back and landed laughing all the way.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
you know I gotta ask, how do you accurately measure the turn radius? it's not like there are tape measures built into AH.
It's a function of speed, time and distance. For example, if it takes you 53.45 seconds to make three complete circles and your average speed is 94 mph, you can calculate average turn radius and rate. Rate is easy. Simply multiply 360 x 3 / time in seconds. In the case of the TBM, this is 1080/53.45, or 20.2 degrees per second.
Radius is more complex, but I'll make it as simple as possible.
mph / 60 x 88 (which is 5280/60) = feet per second (FPS).
FPS x time = total distance traveled in three circles / 3 = circumference of one circle.
circumference / Pi (3.14) = diameter of circle. (note that rounding off Pi as I did will introduce a very minor error)
Dia / 2 = radius of circle.
So, for the TBM it takes 53.45 seconds to fly 3 circles at an average speed of 94 mph. Thus, 94 / 60 x 88 = 137.866 fps. 137.866 x 53.45 = 7368.9733 feet traveled / 3 = a circumference of 2,456.324 feet / 3.14 = 782.269 feet circle diameter / by 2 = 391.11 feet average turn radius.
Accurate data requires exceptional attention to maintaining speed and altitude. Test results will often vary from tester to tester, but the lowest figures are generally the most accurate IF the test methodology is carefully adhered to. Most of us who do this testing do at least three tests and average the results.
We simply provide data that allows pilots to gauge performance of each aircraft. How close a pilot can come to that performance in combat is wildly variable from individual to individual, as one would expect.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Urchin
I guess "flying" LW for years beat the E-fighting style into me so hard that whenever I am in a plane that has better vertical performance than the one I'm fighting I'll use it.
None of those bombers has the power to hold the nose up to match any fighter in the game, which is why they are easy meat. The problem is most people in the game don't realize that.
Urchin makes an excellent point.
The reason guys are successful flying planes like the SBD and TBM is that the enemy gets sucked into the trap of maneuvering inside the bomber's flight envelope. Very bad mistake.. Stay reasonably fast, fight up hill and the bombers will quickly have to go on the defensive and, unless the pilot is exceptional, will eventually get shot down.
Reynolds was sucked into fighting inside the TBM's maneuver envelope. I'm sure he'll avoid that in the future.. Well, let's hope so. ;)
My regards,
Widewing
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WW,
I'll have to try the SBD again and see if I can keep it as fast as you. Do you mind if I add your TBM figures to the next version of the list I publish?
Your post reminds me of how much more interesting the single engine bombers could be if we had the SB2C-5. With two 20 mm cannon and the ability to carry two dual 50 cal gun pods under the wings, we'd have a bomber with a heck of lot of fighting firepower.
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But the Helldiver was a pig....
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B7A2 'Grace' had two 20mm cannons, same kind as the N1K2-J or A6M5b, and it was definately not a pig.
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Specs and pics?
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Model kit review with pics:
http://www.internetmodeler.com/1998/november/aviation/hasegawa_grace.htm
Performance:
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/IJARG/aichib7a.html
Quick look:
Max. Speed: 351 mph (565 kph) at 21,490 ft.
Service Ceiling: 36,910 ft. (11,250m)
Climb to 13,125 ft.: 6 minutes 55 second.
Range: 1,889 miles (3040 km)
Only 114 built though.
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So, Stuka/SDB on Steroids :D
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Supposedly it would turn with, or out turn, A6M5s.
And 351mph is not bad at all for an attack bird.
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That are nice specs. There would be whining if that bird appeared in AH hehe.
As for carrier born attackers, wasn't the firefly one of them?
And then there was the A-26 ;)
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Originally posted by MOSQ
WW,
Do you mind if I add your TBM figures to the next version of the list I publish?
By all means....
Being curious in nature (there's an opening if ever I saw one), I will probably test the A-20G, Boston Mk.III, Ju 88, Ju 87, B-26, B5N and Ki-67.
Certainly those with fixed forward guns....
My regards,
Widewing
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i was flyin a A-20 and got 7 kills on pnzrs and a -1C came out of no where:O. He missed me and tryed turnin with me. It lasted only 20 seconds and his wing was fallin to the ground .:t
i got some good perks for it.:D