Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: AquaShrimp on August 15, 2006, 04:26:16 PM
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How can the U.S. maintain its technological edge over the rest of the World?
Now it seems to me that other countries, such as India and China, are cutting the technology gap by using a very sneaky method- education. India offers free college to anyone who wants a degree in computer-science. Fully 1/3rd of graduate students in the U.S. are foreign.
So what are we to do?
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Clearly, we need to take all our money and our young people, and...
send them to foreign countries.
Also, let's piss away billions flying a 30 year old deathtrap spacecraft.
That's my plan! :aok
Back on topic, nothing will happen unless our society starts to value education instead of focusing on issues like gay marriage, Lacey Peterson, Mt. Soledad, presidential hummers, war on drugs, war on immigration, etc.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
How can the U.S. maintain its technological edge over the rest of the World?
Now it seems to me that other countries, such as India and China, are cutting the technology gap by using a very sneaky method- education. India offers free college to anyone who wants a degree in computer-science. Fully 1/3rd of graduate students in the U.S. are foreign.
So what are we to do?
What do we do, why nothing of course. We continue to let them educate their children in our piss poor education system while our kids get a real education in better countries.
:cry :furious
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Actually we have an awesome education system when it comes to technology at the post graduate level. The problem is that there aren't enough Americans qualified or willing to take part in it. On the other hand, a lot of the foreign students stay here and work, and there are social benefits. In my department I got to know people from Poland, Pakistan, Russia, India, China, Taiwan, Korea, Turkey, Czech Republic, etc.
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See Rule #7
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Remember, in the end, there are only 4 things that we can do better than everyone else:
- music
- movies
- microcode (software)
- high-speed pizza delivery
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
How can the U.S. maintain its technological edge over the rest of the World?
Now it seems to me that other countries, such as India and China, are cutting the technology gap by using a very sneaky method- education. India offers free college to anyone who wants a degree in computer-science. Fully 1/3rd of graduate students in the U.S. are foreign.
So what are we to do?
Between federal Pell Grants and student loan deferments anyone from a low income house hold can go to school if they want too...
If your goal is to have more students taking science type courses, it would be better to create incentives like awarding more federal pell grants to students wanting to take theses type courses.
But regardless of whether or not we have more students taking science courses if there are no jobs for them what good will it do?
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Fully 1/3rd of graduate students in the U.S. are foreign.
So what are we to do?
Would that mean that the remaining 2/3 are not foreign?
2 of 3 grad students in America are American?
Where did these students get their primary, secondary, and undergrad education?
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Some, like Chinese and Indian grad students, received their undergrad education in their home countries. Others, especially those from Africa, received undergrad education in the U.S.
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Where do the 2/3's who are Americans receive theirs?
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
How can the U.S. maintain its technological edge over the rest of the World?
Now it seems to me that other countries, such as India and China, are cutting the technology gap by using a very sneaky method- education. India offers free college to anyone who wants a degree in computer-science. Fully 1/3rd of graduate students in the U.S. are foreign.
So what are we to do?
The sad but true thing is the thief's in the U.S. goverment don't even realize that education has a great return of investment. (rollseyes)
I guess they just want their pork now, always now.
We need to offer full tuition for undergrads. Not too likely to happen anytime soon though.
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Well, Dupont gives enormous grants to educate honor students in the field of Chemical Engineering. I had a couple buddies who actually got paid to attend the University of Delaware CE Honors program(one of the best if not the best in the nation for Chemical Engineering). As soon as school was over, Dupont scooped them up and put them to work. It was a great promoter of the discipline.
The thing to do would be to widen this approach for other areas of engineering. This will help keep the talent in the engineering field, I believe. It won't, however, solve the problem entirely.
I have another friend who just finished a PHD program at Virginia Tech in Aerospace engineering. He's got a job lined up with the Airforce, but is already talking about dropping it and heading off to work for a startup that some of his older classmates have going (they're developing a fiberoptic fly-by-wire system for military aircraft, dubbed Fly by Fiber). He says, understandably, that the real money is in the private sector, and not with the huge companies, but with the small ones. Starting your own company, once unthinkably risky in that field, is now becoming an only way out.
I think that despite all the out-sourcing, it's exactly this sort of risky behavior that will be our saving grace. The brains are out there, and as long as they keep getting those degrees, they will be looking for ways to maximize their ability to earn (yes, the bucks make the difference). Earning, these days, cannot be gauranteed for jobs that can be readily given away for 1/5 the price, so it has to be done with creativity and originality. Our biggest task is to narrow the gap between how many engineers we produce, and how many are turned out by china and india.
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4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Remember, in the end, there are only 4 things that we can do better than everyone else:
- music
- movies
- microcode (software)
- high-speed pizza delivery
While you may have had your tougue firmly planted while typing this, it's interesting that none of those perceptions may be true.
US music is no longer as popular outside the US as it was, or still perceived to be. Check out the top songs and artists and you'll see home-grown across the board in other continents. Same for movies. You would not find the same sentiment about US software, or even pizza delivery, outside the US.
The more traveled and involved you are in international business, the faster the bubbles of superiority burst.
One technology the US does better than anyone else is weapons development, manufacturing and delivery technology. And in a world where might has always made right, that seems to be the technology that matters.
Foreign university students in the US are declining in general, due to visa restrictions, and computer engineering is the fastest declining category because the US has no advantage any more. Mathematics is mathematics and US students are not more advanced in mathematics than the rest of the world. International collegiate software competitions are not dominated by US universities. In fact, the US does poorly in them.
Basic mathematics, trigonometry and calculus, have not changed for centuries, so why have university mandatory textbooks in the US become as expensive as used cars? Treating education as a for-profit business can't be helping all able students access.
I don't think the US is 'threatened' by the education of others. I know that wasn't said here, but there are people who promote that image. Not everyone is university caliber. US public school does a poor job of preparing high school graduates without university potential to do anything.
With 5 billion people in the world and 25% having an IQ above 110, it stands to reason that there will always be more people outside the US improving their education and technology than in a US with 300 million people.
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I think the main difference is the opportunity that someone without a degree has in the U.S. vs alot of other countries. It really isn't that big of a deal. I earn a salary that is mid-upper range for most BS or BE degree holders without having a degree. I'm a bit lucky to get my job and would not be re-hired for it since I don't have a degree, but the opportunity presented itself and here I am. My dad earns a salary very close to mine as a truck driver for UPS. He's been doing that for 40 years now. No degree there and a very nice living for his lower-middle class family and a migration to upper-middle class as the years rolled on. No degree needed there.
I haven't noticed a leap of intelligence umongst the upper educated no matter where the people are from. The PhDs I work with (75% PhDs here) are your typical smatter of people. I am amazed at some of the specialty education the people receive and the knowledge they have in their field, but they all end up coming to me or one of my two co-workers in the end to ask for help. They're so specialized that they can't function on a broad scale. It's rather odd.
As to how the U.S. can maintain a technical edge... it's strictly driven by supply and demand as well as the inginuity of a few people (just as many without degrees as with them). The rest of us just hang on for the ride.
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Originally posted by Mini D
I think the main difference is the opportunity that someone without a degree has in the U.S. vs alot of other countries.
I'm curious, MiniD. What countries would you site as examples of this main difference?
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we have a 60% public high school graduation rate around here
I think we should start with the failing 40%
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Originally posted by Rolex
I'm curious, MiniD. What countries would you site as examples of this main difference?
Salary, by a long shot.
There are a few countries that beat us out, but only a few. The average salary difference between educated/uneducated in the U.S. is not significant either. Contractors help that out significantly as well as trucking/trade/transportation. There's a reason many foreigners that get masters and PhDs in the U.S. stay here and work. If they went home, they'd be earning significantly less, even on a salary/cost of living scale.
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Originally posted by Mini D
There's a reason many foreigners that get masters and PhDs in the U.S. stay here and work. If they went home, they'd be earning significantly less, even on a salary/cost of living scale.
India is a good example,
I work for a software company that allows people from India to key remittance work. This is a job that most high school drop outs end up doing here in the states. But in India they have keyers doing this with PHd's. If I spent all that effort and time getting a PHd and ended up with a job keying check amounts I would be pissed, and on the first boat going to the USA... :)
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I don't think that many of our public school graduates could take any real technical graduate courses... once they leave public 12th grade classes they pretty much have to start over.
I don't think making public school extend another 2-8 years would do much except make kids fatter and cost us billions.
lazs
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Fully 1/3rd of graduate students in the U.S. are foreign.
So what are we to do?
"Fully 1/3rd"?
So we to presume that 2/3 Americans being graduate students is a BAD THING? Wake up from your slumber Rip Van Winkle.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
nothing will happen unless our society starts to value education
I couldn't agree more. One thing I would like to see is a full time school day. We live in a society where both parents work full time, it's kind of silly for kids to be out of school at two in the afternoon. If we can have the best military in the world, there is no reason not to have the best education system in the world.
Here, Boston metro area used to have one of the best public school systems in the world, it's a shadow of itself now and it's a shame
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I value education... I don't think many teachers do tho. I think most teachers... and the teachers union in general.... think that what they want is all that matters.
We are paying more every year for schools and getting less.
The way to value education is to have standards that are strict and high. Flunk kids who can't or won't learn and fire teachers who won't or can't teach.
What we would have left would be enough.
It is the only way to "value" education.... throwing money at it and making sure that every student passes by lowering the standards does not "value" it. Shortening the school day does not "value" it. Allowing the teaching of social skills does not "value" it.
None of the countries that are so admired by you all here would put up with either our students or our teachers of today...
that is the simple truth.
Both the way that we treat teachers and students needs to be overhauled if either is to have any "value" or respect.
lazs
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
How can the U.S. maintain its technological edge over the rest of the World?
By bringing the U.S. back to the U.S. By this I mean cut our dependency on foreign countries for everything from soap to microchips.
Hands on.
Another good starting point would be to put teachers in place in public schools who actualy wish to teach something useful instead of using it as a platform for their personal agenda.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Another good starting point would be to put teachers in place in public schools who actualy wish to teach something useful instead of using it as a platform for their personal agenda.
Can you convert this general statement into something specific? This is a good place to use a SMART objective.
Specific - What exactly is the goal?
measurable - How will success be determined? For example, "I will read this book by tuesday" is measurable because there is a deadline.
attainable - Is the requirement possible? How about feasible? What kind of money will it cost to implement?
results focused - Does the goal focus on getting something done, or is it focused on complaining about something that exists?
timely - What is the prospective timeline?
The SMART objective structure is something I use all the time in my personal and professional life, it seems like as good a time as any to apply it to here as well, and your generalized statement in particular.
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If you have the time check out this article.
Why Startups (http://www.paulgraham.com/america.html)
Paul Graham has the credentials that make his essay worthy (see his bio). I agree with most of his points. Some of them are political in nature but they all have merits.
Tax rates are probably (imo) the biggest factor to start up success. Back in the early 90's I ran my own tech/export company. Part of my plan was to keep margins thin for the first 5 years to build a client base. Our state changed governors and they added a corporate franchise tax. There was very little incentive for me to increase my cost to cover the extra tax so I sold out and moved on.
The top 10
1.) It allows immigration
2.) It is rich
3.) It is not a police state
4.) Its universities are better
5.) It has less restrictive labor laws
6.) Work is not strictly identified with having a job
7.) It has fewer regulations
8.) It has a large domestic market
9.) It has venture capital funding
10.) Americans change careers more often
If you're interested in startups, he has other articles on his site you might like.
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By bringing the U.S. back to the U.S. By this I mean cut our dependency on foreign countries for everything from soap to microchips.
Hands on.
And I'm sure the average consumer will buy into a huge hike in prices for all manner of goods.
Globalisation is a fact. It's the 21st century, not the 1930s. It sounds like some have yet to adjust to that fact...
The best companies exploit Porter's diamond and operate in tough competitive environments. Think of it as building corporate muscle.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
"Fully 1/3rd"?
So we to presume that 2/3 Americans being graduate students is a BAD THING? Wake up from your slumber Rip Van Winkle.
Yeah thats a bad thing. Americans should make up 90-95% of graduate students. But don't let this post distract you, I'm sure you need to get back to your lucrative job in the food service industry.
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4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
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One more thing. I think in the past, the U.S. has had an advantage in manufacturing because it used technology over manpower. Textiles for example. In the U.S., 5 women with new singer sewing machines were doing the same job that 100 chinese women hand sewing were doing. We've lost that manufacturing technological edge.
And cars. We don't have the manufacturing edge to produce cars cheaper than our competition, plus our designs are either inferior or on par with foreign cars, not better.
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Originally posted by soda72
Between federal Pell Grants and student loan deferments anyone from a low income house hold can go to school if they want too...
If your goal is to have more students taking science type courses, it would be better to create incentives like awarding more federal pell grants to students wanting to take theses type courses.
But regardless of whether or not we have more students taking science courses if there are no jobs for them what good will it do?
There are plenty of jobs in this country. Here in N. Florida we have 3% unemployment. If there is no job where you are you have 2 choices, move or elect people who will bring and keep jobs into where you live.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
Well, I was being civil, I see you've decided to follow a different path.
You said, and I quote:Another good starting point would be to put teachers in place in public schools who actualy wish to teach something useful instead of using it as a platform for their personal agenda.
What agenda? Which teachers specifically? What change would you make? How would you filter the people who meet your undefined criteria? How do you determine who wants to teach versus who wants a platform?
I invite you to try again.
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Originally posted by BluKitty
The sad but true thing is the thief's in the U.S. goverment don't even realize that education has a great return of investment. (rollseyes)
I guess they just want their pork now, always now.
We need to offer full tuition for undergrads. Not too likely to happen anytime soon though.
The whole education funding argument is smoke and mirrors. We spend an enormous amount of money on primary and secondary education and we get very little for it. Per student we spend a lot more than other countries. NYC itself spends close to $10K/student/year ($11,172 for 2003-2004). The problem is a lot of that money goes to ancillary expenditures. (in the case of NYC 40% goes to non-classroom instruction costs)
Same is true of higher education. College budgets are bloated and the cost of tuition only keeps rising with little benefit to the student.
We could educate high school graduates with the equivalent of the 2 year college degree if we only had the will to do it. It takes more will and effort than money but the education establishment doesn't want that because it would upset their gravy train.
(http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/international/IntlIndicators/figures/Fig03.gif)
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Originally posted by Rolex
I don't think the US is 'threatened' by the education of others. I know that wasn't said here, but there are people who promote that image. Not everyone is university caliber. US public school does a poor job of preparing high school graduates without university potential to do anything.
Right on the mark Rolex. We do a very poor job preparing those who will not, through economics or personal choice, go to college. There are plenty of jobs that really do not require a college degree but it is required by corporations only because of the poor education that high school students get in basic English & math skills. Colleges are spending lots of money remedializing entering freshmen in these skills they should have been taught in High School.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I value education... I don't think many teachers do tho. I think most teachers... and the teachers union in general.... think that what they want is all that matters.
lazs
The teachers unions could care a whit about your child's education. There are good and dedicated teachers out there but the union in general only cares about itself and it's political agenda. They will use your children to advance that agenda.
I spent the 1st 1/3 of my technology career dealing with the education community and I had ample opportunity to work with teachers, administrators, School Board members and union representatives both local and national. Most of them are arrogant elitists who believe they are smarter than everyone else.
The highest paid teachers, the lowest drop out rates and the highest test scores in the US are all in non-union school systems.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Well, I was being civil, I see you've decided to follow a different path.
You said, and I quote:What agenda? Which teachers specifically? What change would you make? How would you filter the people who meet your undefined criteria? How do you determine who wants to teach versus who wants a platform?
I invite you to try again.
It's pretty easy to find the agenda Chairboy. One need only to look. Actually one need only to have a conversation with your average educator to see where their political agenda lies. One need only look at the political contributions and activism of the NEA.
When my daughter was in high school I went to parents day and met her teachers. 2 of the 6 I considered educated and professional, the other 4 I would not have hired to walk my dog.
It is time to make performance a factor in teachers salary and retention, not tenure.
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I blaem teh librules.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Well, I was being civil, I see you've decided to follow a different path.
You said, and I quote:What agenda? Which teachers specifically? What change would you make? How would you filter the people who meet your undefined criteria? How do you determine who wants to teach versus who wants a platform?
I invite you to try again.
OK........................... ........
Another good starting point would be to put teachers in place in public schools who actualy wish to teach something useful instead of using it as a platform for their personal agenda.
Any clearer this time?
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Any clearer this time?
I admire the persistance you employ in just repasting your original message over and over. If you are incapable of communicating effectively, then, well, at least you have the persistance.
You still haven't described what the agendas are, how you would make it happen, and so on. Can I expect another repaste? Or are you able to answer the questions? I look forward to your reply.
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Import more Japaneese ;)
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I admire the persistance you employ in just repasting your original message over and over. If you are incapable of communicating effectively, then, well, at least you have the persistance.
If you are incapable of comprehending what I said, I`m sorry but I can`t help you. Don`t see anyone else having much of a problem with it. It`s about as clear as it gets. Straight forward and to the point.
I`m soooo sorry you find it so perplexing. Please do not let it interfere with your day to day life.............or your professional one.
You still haven't described what the agendas are, how you would make it happen, and so on. Can I expect another repaste? Or are you able to answer the questions? I look forward to your reply.
I feel , at this point, another trip around the block would not open your eyes to the scenery.
I would like to suggest that you do your best just to carry on.
Please accept my profound apologies for causing you such confusion and turmoil.
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i smell smoke, the kind that you sometimes smell just before a
FLAME WAR!!!
zOMGOMGOMGOMG u n00bs r all teh sux!!!!!1
i m teh flame war beserxor!!!!! rofllololol:furious :furious :mad: :mad: :O :O :rofl :rofl :rofl :aok
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Clearly, we need to take all our money and our young people, and...
send them to foreign countries.
Also, let's piss away billions flying a 30 year old deathtrap spacecraft.
That's my plan! :aok
Back on topic, nothing will happen unless our society starts to value education instead of focusing on issues like gay marriage, Lacey Peterson, Mt. Soledad, presidential hummers, war on drugs, war on immigration, etc.
I think too large a % of US kids are so squealing stupid at the time they graduate high school, they will never catch up, and the best they can hit is community college...or maybe a degree in education:rofl
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Import more Japaneese ;)
Indeed, it wouldn't hurt to have more immigrants from cultures that place more value on education than Americans.
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Originally posted by Debonair
i smell smoke, the kind that you sometimes smell just before a
FLAME WAR!!!
zOMGOMGOMGOMG u n00bs r all teh sux!!!!!1
i m teh flame war beserxor!!!!! rofllololol:furious :furious :mad: :mad: :O :O :rofl :rofl :rofl :aok
Nah, I was honestly curious about what Jackal1 was talking about, but I guess he didn't know either. Not worth any sort of flame war, not by far.
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thats too bad, i luv teh flame wars.
i'm working on a MMO flame war sim (with AI n00bs, so u can practice offline)
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I`m just beside myself.
See me?
:rofl
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funked... If we really want to value education then we should import jap teachers and administrators and let them run our school system.
or... we could just have a voucher system and then we would know it it was the teachers or the parents fault.
Since the japs spend half the money and get twice the results... I would say that it is pretty obvious that the fault lies in our teachers and the public school system.
lazs
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Remember, in the end, there are only 4 things that we can do better than everyone else:
- music
- movies
- microcode (software)
- high-speed pizza delivery
If it weren't for the movies and music on your list, I'd think you've been reading a bit too much neal stephenson.
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Originally posted by Neubob
If it weren't for the movies and music on your list, I'd think you've been reading a bit too much neal stephenson.
Actually, that was a direct quote from the first page of Snow Crash, so well done! I was wondering if anyone was going to catch the reference.
http://www.ereader.com/product/book/excerpt/12128
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Actually, that was a direct quote from the first page of Snow Crash, so well done! I was wondering if anyone was going to catch the reference.
http://www.ereader.com/product/book/excerpt/12128
It was a particularly salient quote too, because in all its audacity, it actually made a bit of scary sense. What a weird book, though, eh Chairboy? Hell of an imagination it takes to come up with Stephenson's unique approach to rape-prevention. I also took quite a liking to REASON.
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I have heard a rumour that in the US you can't hold a failing student back a grade because it might hurt their feelings. Is this true?
Surely making someone repeat a year in high school is better for them than letting them graduate without knowing anything.
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Originally posted by Gryffin
I have heard a rumour that in the US you can't hold a failing student back a grade because it might hurt their feelings. Is this true?
Surely making someone repeat a year in high school is better for them than letting them graduate without knowing anything.
It hasn't quite gotten to that level yet, at least on an institutional level. There might be scattered schools that have dumb policies like that, but it's certainly not the norm.
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IMO, the problem might not lie within the schools themselves. Its the attitude of the general public. Education is just not that highly valued. The opportunity is definately there if someone wants to go to college. But of course, to excell in a field, a person must be willing to dedicate more than just a few hours a day in college to learning.
So what I really think matters is the emphasis a person's family places on learning and knowledge at a young age. By the time a kid reaches high school, he needs to already have a serious attitude about school. Because this knowledge is the foundation for college.
Some psychologist say the problem today is that kids just don't have alot of motivation to succeed. Its not like kids today (for the most part) are growing up in abject poverty. Suburbian kids live in nice houses, with all the modern comforts. So why work extra to do well in school? Contrast this to the highly motivated foreign students, growing up in highly crowded cities, relatively few modern amenities. They know what will happen if they don't do exceptionally well in school. They'll wind up back in China or India working for a dollar a day selling fish.
So to sum it up, the educational opportunities in the USA are there. The attitude and motivation arent.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
IMO, the problem might not lie within the schools themselves. Its the attitude of the general public. Education is just not that highly valued. The opportunity is definately there if someone wants to go to college. But of course, to excell in a field, a person must be willing to dedicate more than just a few hours a day in college to learning.
So what I really think matters is the emphasis a person's family places on learning and knowledge at a young age. By the time a kid reaches high school, he needs to already have a serious attitude about school. Because this knowledge is the foundation for college.
Some psychologist say the problem today is that kids just don't have alot of motivation to succeed. Its not like kids today (for the most part) are growing up in abject poverty. Suburbian kids live in nice houses, with all the modern comforts. So why work extra to do well in school? Contrast this to the highly motivated foreign students, growing up in highly crowded cities, relatively few modern amenities. They know what will happen if they don't do exceptionally well in school. They'll wind up back in China or India working for a dollar a day selling fish.
So to sum it up, the educational opportunities in the USA are there. The attitude and motivation arent.
Couldn't agree more.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Some psychologist say the problem today is that kids just don't have alot of motivation to succeed. Its not like kids today (for the most part) are growing up in abject poverty. Suburbian kids live in nice houses, with all the modern comforts. So why work extra to do well in school? Contrast this to the highly motivated foreign students, growing up in highly crowded cities, relatively few modern amenities. They know what will happen if they don't do exceptionally well in school. They'll wind up back in China or India working for a dollar a day selling fish.
So to sum it up, the educational opportunities in the USA are there. The attitude and motivation arent.
On the other hand... maybe the children are rejecting our definitions of success. How do these psychologists measure success? All too often success is measured as wealth or material possession.
It's nice and all. It's comfortable. But it's not going to bring happiness.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Contrast this to the highly motivated foreign students, growing up in highly crowded cities, relatively few modern amenities. They know what will happen if they don't do exceptionally well in school. They'll wind up back in China or India working for a dollar a day selling fish.
The overwhelming majority of students do not stay in the US. Those who came to study didn't come from poor families. How do you think they paid tuition and living expenses?
There are more middle-class families in India than there are in America and the entire rest of the world isn't earning a rupee, euro or yen a day selling fish.
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A majority coming from the science side of the house do stay in the U.S.
But, you are spot on with the middle-upper class issue. The foreigners hitting grad school here are not from poor families, as a rule.
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That's true for post-graduate students. Some of the numbers get kind of fuzzy for several reasons: undergraduate statistics sometimes not included, some students entered with permanent-resident visas, some are continuing post-graduate study under fellowship agreements, etc. Many do have temporary working visas because companies recruit them aggressively.
Foreign students in the US are declining about 20% a year anyway since there is a confused policy. Corporate and academic America want them for their skills and tuition, some politicians want to exclude them as an election issue, but American students are not hindered by foreign students.
Interestingly enough, the US isn't even near the top in percentage of foreign students in tertiary education. It ranks 17th in OECD countries.
In international mathematics assessment of 15 year-olds, the US ranks tied for 21st among OECD countries.
In problem solving for 15 year-olds, the US ranks 23rd.
I'm not a fan of teacher bashing. It's up to the parents to motivate their children to pick up a book on their own, learn the content of a course and develop good study habits. If their child isn't learning something, then pick up the book and help them with it.
Americans kids still only do about an hour per night of homework. That isn't something teachers can control.
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LOl aquashrimp... are you saying that our teachers and administrators are as good or better than other countries?
If we had vouchers and imported jap teachers and administrators then we would improve education.
We "value" education here. It is the teachers and the administrators who don't value it... they value something else entirely.
They fight any testing or ability to fire their worthess butts. They ask for more money every year and get less accomplished.
insanity has been defined as doing the same things over and over and expecting different results...
The way kids are being taught and the way teachers and adminestrators are doing it is the very denfenition of insanity.
Blaming everything under the sun but the people doing the teaching is insanity.
Not allowing a diverse school system with vouchers is insanity... can you imagine the same people running the K-12 school system running every university in the country? Is that what we want?
Paying people full time wages for a part time job and having the buildings abandoned allmost half the daylight hours a year is insanity.
We "value" education... we just feel that we are getting the shaft... we are paying twice as much as most countries (and even our own private schools) and getting half as much.
Yeah.... someone does not "value" education but it isn't the people being sucked dry by higher and higer education costs every year for less results.
I don't think the teachers union can keep up the blame game much longer.
I can't wait till their greed and arrogance push people over the edge.
lazs
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Originally posted by Gryffin
I have heard a rumour that in the US you can't hold a failing student back a grade because it might hurt their feelings. Is this true?
Surely making someone repeat a year in high school is better for them than letting them graduate without knowing anything.
That`s close to the truth in some schools here.
Usualy it is not to keep from hurting the students feelings. It is done to keep the teacher and the school itself from looking bad.
It takes someone with a serious problem or someone who just refuses to put forth any effort to fail in high school in most schools. What is taught is so basic it is laughable. Nearly to the point of See Spot Run.
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some districts here pay the schools less money if they hold a student back.
lazs