Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Eagler on February 15, 2001, 08:18:00 AM
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Some more info on clinton's best buddies. This really isn't new, they have been killing babies for a long time....population control.
Taken to the extreme with legalized abortion, this scenario can happen anywhere in the world eventually...
As for China, I don't think they get it yet... Not quite civilized nor enlighten enough for me.
Eagler
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China Uses Abortion as Female Genocide
CNSNews.com
Thursday, Feb. 15, 2001
LONDON - Shocking pictures of an apparent victim of China's "one-child policy" - a newborn baby girl lying dead in a gutter, ignored by passers-by - have prompted shock and revulsion.
The pictures, published in a British newspaper Wednesday, come at a time British government officials are holding talks in China over human rights issues.
The U.S. administration is also this week expected to decide on whether to support an annual U.N. resolution condemning China's human rights record. Members of the Senate Tuesday introduced a resolution urging President Bush to "take the lead" in an international censure of Beijing.
The photographs were taken by a horrified visitor and smuggled out of China after police questioned her for photographing the dead child, and confiscated films.
The woman said the baby's naked body, spotted lying alongside a road in a small town in Hunan province, was still warm - she had clearly been dumped and had just died.
Many passers-by on their way to work ignored the child, the Mirror quoted her as saying, while some stopped to look, then walked on. Pictures showed life going on as normal, until an elderly man eventually put the tiny body into a box and carried it away.
The woman said she called the police, who took more than three hours to arrive. When they did, they questioned her for an hour, checked her identification papers, and took all her film, except for one she managed to hide.
China's population is expected to increase from 1.26 billion at the end of 1999 to 1.6 billion in 2050.
Abortion Used Against Women
Under a "one-child policy," introduced in 1979 to help slow down the galloping population growth rate, parents are routinely sterilized and face large fines if they have more than one child.
The government claims it has successfully prevented 250 million births since it was introduced.
But it has also been estimated that the policy has resulted in there being 60 million more males in China than females. Many parents, aware they will only have one child to look after them in their old age, want that child to be a son, say human rights campaigners.
As a result, parents who can afford it have their child screened in the womb, then abort girls. Those who give birth to girls may abandon them or leave them to die.
Determination of gender during ultrasound scans has been officially banned for years, but the practice continues. One 1999 report on the International Planned Parenthood Federation Web site says that between 500,000 and 750,000 unborn Chinese girls are aborted every year after sex screening.
Last August, Western newspapers reported a case in which "family planning" officials had killed an unauthorized baby in front of its parents.
The Huang family already had three children when the mother fell pregnant again, according to the reports. Having botched an attempt to induce an abortion, "family planning" officials then ordered the father to kill the newborn baby, whom he instead tried to hide. Eventually they found the baby boy and drowned him in a rice paddy, in front of the parents.
"China's population-control policies allow petty bureaucrats across the country a free hand to ruin people's lives as they extort bribes and gifts and dispense life-or-death decisions," one London newspaper reported at the time.
After a public outcry, authorities reportedly arrested three "family planning" officials.
According to information provided by the Chinese Embassy in Britain, the government views the policy as benefiting the whole of society. It claims that "forced abortion and sterilization are strictly prohibited by the Chinese laws and offenders will be punished according to law."
A Taiwan newspaper in December quoted the director of China's state "family planning" commission as admitting that the policy has led to forced abortions, sex-selective abortions, as well as infanticide and the abandonment of newborn girls.
But China would go on implementing the policy, he said, while continuing to oppose "coercion" and "induced abortion."
The policy has been relaxed in some areas, and some parents are allowed to have a second child, in return for paying a fee, often more than a year's wages.
Desensitized
Britain's largest pro-life organization, Life, said that while the pictures were deeply upsetting, it was grateful to the photographer for getting out images depicting so vividly "the depths that China's so-called family-planning policy has sunk to."
Life spokesperson Nuala Scarisbrick commented on the obvious indifference of passers-by to the abandoned baby.
"Evidently in China they have become as desensitized to the horror of culling newborn children as we in the Western world have become to destroying preborn children."
Scarisbrick berated the British government for funding international "family planning" agencies that promote abortion. She called on the government to follow President Bush's example and stop using taxpayers' money to support these agencies.
The human rights organization Amnesty International said while it did not have a position of the "one-child policy" itself, it was opposed to the resulting human rights violations.
"We believe the Chinese government should take action to ensure that its family planning officials do not commit human rights violations by making women have abortions, even physically detaining them to have abortions," said Amnesty's Isabel Kelly.
Gary Streeter, international development spokesman for the opposition Conservative Party, said Wednesday it was essential that Britain contributed in no way to "this appalling practice" and lobbied Beijing to ensure that it ends.
In a letter to International Development Secretary Clare Short, Streeter called for an extensive review of all British-funded Chinese government and nongovernmental bodies "to ensure that no British taxpayers' money is directly or indirectly supporting the one-child policy."
A spokesman for Short said in response to queries that the department "does not fund population control in China or anywhere else."
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I say use no family planning whatsoever.
I can learn Chinese, when the masses arrive.
Eagler, this post is about the Chinese system, not abortion per se. The topic is a bit of a misnomer.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up space"
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<Looks at 10 foot stick...nope not long enough>
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I'm sorry Eagler, but saying legalised abortion can lead to the situation in China (anywhere in the world) is, to be frank, roadkill.
Completely different cultures with completely different values.
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Originally posted by Dowding:
I'm sorry Eagler, but saying legalized abortion can lead to the situation in China (anywhere in the world) is, to be frank, roadkill.
Completely different cultures with completely different values.
Extreme today, yes.. in the future, a generation or two - possible. If the government is large and controlling enough, who will be able to stop they? You guys still have your sling shots??
Eagler
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Eagler - examine the facts. In Chinese society, boys have always been more highly regarded than girls. Can you say the same for Western societies?
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A baby laying in the gutter as an argument against abortion doesn't really work.
China is China.. a different world and a different culture.
I have to side with everyone else here Eagler.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Eagler:
As for China, I don't think they get it yet... Not quite civilized nor enlighten enough for me.
well instead of broadly insulting the entire culture you should make the distinction between the government and the people.
the people aren't packing into boats for weeks on end to escape because they agree with the system.
every week some crack potato in the u.s. tosses her baby in the trash and every week someone gets killed while onlookers stand slack-jawed.i doubt you make such broad insulting statements about the u.s. though -
also you might try spending some time there and you would understand the difference between the people and the government. To say that a 5000 year old culture that you've never had any real contact with is not enlightened enough for you is a bit broad--
all you hear here are the deeds of their 50 yr old gov't - not the culture itself-
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My argument here is that abortion is used as birth control by a government and the people permit it through there own lack of self control (birth control) or ignorance. I put the teenager who throws her baby in the trash, the crack potato who aborts her kid to rush off to the next john, and many other examples of human selfishness as it pertains to aborting one's own flesh and blood, in the same boat as these ignorant Chinese gov and population. My concern here is that if it is government sanctioned, government policies as China's are the next logical step..
Eagler
[This message has been edited by Eagler (edited 02-15-2001).]
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" these ignorant Chinese gov and population "
" ... Not quite civilized nor enlighten enough for me."
"there own lack of self control (birth control) or ignorance "
- yeah your agrument is crystal clear....
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mrfish
I just realized you or your spouse may be oriental and I am offending you. I am sorry. I would think that if the populous had such a different mind set than it's government, policy would change or at least we'd hear about it when the tanks rolled over the demonstrators.. I think they are numb to it as most Americans are numb to the entire abortion idea. If you are for life you are a nutcase. If you are for terminating a living being, well you are normal... weird. Post is to point out that it could happen anywhere in the world where sensitivities to life have been removed.
Eagler
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Originally posted by Eagler:
Extreme today, yes.. in the future, a generation or two - possible. If the government is large and controlling enough, who will be able to stop they? You guys still have your sling shots??
Eagler
Yes, let's outlaw abortion right now through laws, and ensure that citizens stick to the letter of the law through draconian enforcement. That way we'll ensure that government doesn't get too big or controlling.
-- Todd/DMF
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i am a first generation 'muhrcan' eagler - my pa was a german. my wife is chinese though so i may be a bit touchy - too much probably but nothing a beer couldnt fix (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
they are desensitized in some cases but so are new yorkers and san franciscans etc- i think everyone has personal biases i am no different
- mass abortion is no way to fix population control and it makes me sick too but the culture isn't as evil as its painted really - i spent some time visiting the po-lin buhddist monastary near hong kong and there are all kinds of 3-legged one eyed half dead dogs runnin around because the monks take them in when they are discarded - the chinese are fiercely protective of their kids - it isnt uncommon for a grown adult to be physically chastized by their aged parents - the bond is very strong and i was afraid they would be mischaracterized - in reality they are very conservative and family oriented which is why you rarely see chinese immigrants beggin in the wellfare line -
- i think abortion ought to be legal for the record <i am ducking now>b but it ought to remain immoral - does that make sense?
in other words it shouldn't be like "oh i am getting an abortion today - messed up and got pregnant again heheh see ya at diner"
- but i like the current supreme court definition.
people should get abortions when they are desperate and they should see it as another chance at doing the right thing and feel remorseful - personally i couldnt imagine an abortion in my household! its unthinkable- but for some dumb poor kid somewhere it is viable i think. cheers -
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Originally posted by mrfish:
personally i couldnt imagine an abortion in my household! its unthinkable- but for some dumb poor kid somewhere it is viable i think. cheers -
I couldn't either mrfish until my oldest did what he thought was best after not having the intelligence nor self control to prevent it in the first place ... I am sure that contributes to my sensitivity of the entire subject. If the choice wasn't as convenient as it is today, more use it as birth control than will ever admit, maybe one would be more responsible with one's actions as they pertain to creating life.
<S> mrfish
Eagler
[This message has been edited by Eagler (edited 02-15-2001).]
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<S> Eagler
yep - easy to be an armchair philosopher safe in my comfy work chair - much tougher when it ain't a drill....
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<S> Eagler. Informative post. I am pretty muchly game for any post that slams abortion. This was actually more about chinese politics, but still informative. THe daughter of one of the ladies I work with just adopted a chinese girl. She is a doll, I can't imagine anyone wanting to throw these children away. I don't want to characterize all chinese poeple this way, but there is a large amount of poeple ditching their girls over there. This lady spent several weeks over there during the adoption and she said the orphanages were just packed with girls, but no boys. Anyway, thats my 2 cents.
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Gunslayer, it's just that in the Chinese culture, boys are valuable. They can provide for the family and so forth, whereas the girls are a liability, and a costly one.
This combined with China's attempt to control the population growth makes for the current situation.
One must also ask whether it is the Chinese government that is making them orphans, or the Chinese culture (which is FAR older than the government). To me, it's clear it's the people doing what they've always done, but on a much larger scale because of the population control attempts used by the Chinese government.
And, I must admit, I am glad the Chinese are TRYING. Their attempts might be misguided and wrong, but their intentions, to somehow get population growth controlled in a country that consists larlgey of uneducated farmers, are good.
We speak about worries of overcrowding, yet forget to try to find an answer. The Chinese government has tried, but due to the very old Chinese culture and the way woman and men are viewed there, it has backfired. Still, something *has* to be done.
Of course the best way to a stable +-0 population growth is a well developed economy with educated people. That would, however, mean that every Chinese family would have a gas guzzling RV.
Interesting problem.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up space"
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 02-19-2001).]
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Yeah, id rather have 1.6 billion chinese girls running around than 1.6 billion chinese men (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Tac, personally, I prefer Japanese women to Chinese women, aestethically speaking (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif). Your mileage may vary.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up space"
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The numbers probably pale compared to India. There its not the numbers of children so much as the desire for the first born to be a male. culture...
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Yep, i agree. Chog sux. It an abortion (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Pirado