Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: bkbandit on August 16, 2006, 04:13:41 PM
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of course like 90% of the guys in the game i went straight to 51d witout giveing the b model a chance. BIg mistake. SHe has alot to offer and i find myself flyin her most of the time now. She feels more agile she accels alittle better, the lack of a bubble cockpit doesnt hurt nothin, she feels faster in the climb, and of course she has abnormal range. If b model had 6 50s i wouldnt bother wit anythin else(unless its the f6f). 51d is faster at different alts but over all she is slower and the alt were i fly most of the time b model got almost 30mph on her, she got the bubble canopy, and the range is prob alittle further then the b but then again whos useing all that fuel.
What do u guys think. I watched alot of docs and read alot of things and it preety much says that the b model cant hold a candle to the d model, but then i fly it and its great. Shes like the hot girl that wheres the big sweats and big shirts and doesnt do her hair, under all that mess shes a fox.
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my impression is that with a number of planes, the latter addition of the bubble canopy just makes it possible for you to watch the con behind you catching up & with the early hood, you dont need to look back...
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Originally posted by bkbandit
Shes like the hot girl that wears the big sweats and big shirts and doesnt do her hair, under all that mess shes a fox.
:aok
I like the "B". Its got more spunk than the "D" will ever have in my opinion as a fighter. As an attack plane I do feel it falls short compared to the "D". The "B" is the plane I have the most fun in, but I just wish I could fly it better than I do. :(
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Not exactly true, as the later planes that had the bubble canopies often had higher top speeds.
The B used to be harder to fly, before it got a VERY generous boost with the views in the upgrade. It doesn't fly as well as the D does. It's got less guns but almost as much ammo. Between 12k and 25k it's faster than the D, but that doesn't always mean "better".
The one benefit is the slightly (very slightly) increased stability due to the raised dorsal structure. It helps keep you from spinning out in stall fights. Like I said very minor increase, but it's there.
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The B had a stability problem just like the D only not as bad. Late production Bs got the fin fillet the Ds got.
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Originally posted by Krusty
It doesn't fly as well as the D does.
In what way? The P-51B is lighter, turns smaller circles and is generally swifter on the controls. Aside from lacking two MGs, it gives up little to the P-51D in performance and offers superior handling.
Many WWII pilots found themselves dissatisfied with the P-51D, preferring their old P-51Bs and Cs. Note also, that 2/3rds of the P-51C run were fitted with the same engine as the P-51D... Meaning that they had slightly better performance than the later model because they were lighter and a bit cleaner in terms of drag.
My regards,
Widewing
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i just came from flyin them both, the b feels way lighter but u feel both the absence of those 2 50s when ur shooting at heavyer armour targets, like bombers and such(funny thing is a snuck up behind a p47, and killed him in a short burst, nothin fell off he just poped, arrent jugs stronger then that). Any performance data would be nice, things like turn radius and accel and speed. If i had to pick right now it would be mighty hard, i guess it depends wat im doin, both of these planes i use as fighters, i feel all that speed shouldnt be wasted on a panzer, i guess it depends on whether im seeing bombers or fighters or on the mood of the moment.
It sucks that ever time i leave it and fly somethin else i always come back to it. Ill fly f4u for a month then hellcat, but that dam 51 pulls me back in.
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Widewing, I'm taking into consideration the weaker engine which results in less Gs before bleeding your speed down, less climb, less zoom, less turn (in such cases where the engine pulls you through the turn). It's a small difference but it's there. Just an opinion. YMMV
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For most engagements in the MA, the B is a fine plane, but it does suffer a bit from the lack of guns. I do prefer the feel of the B over the D, Im not sure exactly what it is, it does feel a bit more nimble to me....for whatever thats worth LOL.
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yea the lack of 2 guns can be a real pain, some times u feel it but then some times u have to put extra rounds into the con. Didnt the raf fit them wit a different gun package? I was skiming through and also read somethin at a p51 that was equip specificly tp do ground attack. Check it out.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-36_Apache
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Comparison of the B and D models in terms of raw performance. (http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=p51b&p2=p51d)
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B is a very good plane I should fly it more.
The other week i was in a D with a B 1.5 k off my six closing and I thought I'd see what the guy got ended up with a nice scissor fight and me getting round on him following him through the flap motions and blasting him from 200.
maybe this guy didnt expect it or wasnt that great a pilot but the B is still a very good ride had a good fight with coach's typh one time and ended up roping him but coming down to early if it can rope coach's typh its a good plane E wise.....
Bruv
~S~
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i just got off from fightin the same fight, this one started p51b was a hint higher but i wasnt carryin my full cruze so i had little e, at around 15k we fought, he tryed a couple of passes but i give him nothin to work wit, then i started buildin e and went to dive and took him down wit me, got 400mph+ and went nose up cuting the throttle, started some barrel rolls and there he goes, slips in front of me and i drew a line from nose to tail, he was still flyin and dove and i followed, he went hard left and i guess he had a pilot wound cause he flipped and hit the deck. These are the fights that u need to record but ur film is never runing, then when i try it on i get a dry run where cons run hit trees i get hit wit flack get damage by a bomber are mess up and end up punchin out.
planes r very even but u can see that the b model is r lighter, if i was carryin full cruze i would hav opened up very different, from the start of the fight i was on the defensive, but that bubble top really helped this fight, easly keepin sa up 100%, i think this made a huge difference in the fight.
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Give the P51B the same FM as the Spit5 and your moving in the right direction. The P51D should use the P51B FM (once it get the Spit5 FM) then AH will be golden :aok
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Yeager, go fly a spitV :)
For those that say the P51B is undergunned, there was a semi-famous qoute "You won't hit with six guns if you can't hit with four!"
FM2 is still very lethal. P51B more so. 4x50cal is a decent punch. I just wish some other planes had it too (droool... C202 with 4x50cal... *dream*)
I was flying it last night, and thought "dang, not much ammo" but as it turns out it lasts a long time because there's less guns shooting it, so I ended up with 4 kills or so before landing
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Originally posted by bkbandit
yea the lack of 2 guns can be a real pain, some times u feel it but then some times u have to put extra rounds into the con.
If you can't kill something with 4x .50 caliber machine guns...you won't kill them with 6x .50 caliber machine guns. Hit targets at the convergence point and you'll see that 4x .50 calibers can make planes go !BOOM! quite nicely.
ack-ack
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when ur divein on a heavy bomber its harder to take him down, i remember once i was attackin a set of 2 wit another fighter, the bomber had has guns focused on the other guy, i sat my guns directly on the wing, alot of hits to take the wing off. fighter to fighter it gets the job done but when ur hiting heavyer targets u have to put more rounds on a con. 51d has a 4 gun option, but all the 51ds i see are carryin the 6, pretty sure if there was an option for the 6 guns on the p1b it would be the same deal.
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Originally posted by bkbandit
alot of hits to take the wing off.
Maybe, but in real life, .50s didn't take wings off of most things, especially bombers.
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Okay, does the B have that same sucky sight as the D? (And yes i know i can change them, but i wont. I fly as realistic as possible!:furious ) And, which is better at BOTH 12,000 feet, and 1-5,000?
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that gunsight is good, especially when you come from "almost" 6 OC (my speciality is to miss afk kills)
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Okay, does the B have that same sucky sight as the D? (And yes i know i can change them, but i wont. I fly as realistic as possible!:furious ) And, which is better at BOTH 12,000 feet, and 1-5,000?
Here's a tip: While in the cockpit on the runway, on your clipboard, click Options, Preferences and Gunsights.
Move the Alpha slider all the way to the right. End the sortie. Respawn.
You will notice that there is no gunsight. Now, go practice without a gunsight for a while. Eventually, you will discover that the gunsight is not essential beyond being a useful reference. Later, go back and move the slider back towards the left, but keeping the sight quite translucent.
This exercise should improve your gunnery skills.
As to tracers... Most guys like them on, a few of us prefer them off. I have had them off for years. I don't want the enemy knowing I'm shooting until he's been hit.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Reynolds
I fly as realistic as possible!
I don't think any of the included gunsights are realistic. The PonyD's might be since HT flew one, but I don't think so.
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The D is. I just got all the historical ones from other places.
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"The PonyD's might be since HT flew one, but I don't think so."
The version of P-51D we have in AH (most likely a P-51D-25-NA) had the K-14 lead-computing gunsite, while the plane as modeled in AH obviously lacks that particular item. The missing gunsight is an acknowledged and acceptable gameplay concession.
The P-51B we have in AH is an early model with the V-1650-5 engine, most likely a P-51B-5-NA. This engine had a different supercharger gear ratio with a higher critical altitude than the -7 engine used in later production models. This means the AH P-51B performs distinctly better than the P-51D above 25K. Most of the WW2 pilots who preferred the "B" over the "D" (such as Col. "Bud" Anderson) flew B models with the V-1650-5 engine. The engine change and consequent loss of performance at 25-30K was much hated, as that's where they were doing most of their fighting.
At very low altitudes (ie, where most fighting in the AH MA takes place), the P-51B performs worse than the P-51D in several ways, and its advantages are mostly marginalized if you choose the 4-gun option on the "D". The AH P-51B makes for a fine perk farmer, but understand that it doesn't really shine unless you take it up really high.
If we could have a P-51B/C with the V-1650-7 engine and 150-grade fuel performance (72'' MAP at WEP instead of 67''), that'd make for an extremely fun fighter for MA conditions.
J_A_B
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Well, I have no idea why I can't fly a P-51D worth anything, but can rack kills in a B then. Oh well.
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The P-51B we have in AH is an early model with the V-1650-5 engine, most likely a P-51B-5-NA. This engine had a different supercharger gear ratio with a higher critical altitude than the -7 engine used in later production models. This means the AH P-51B performs distinctly better than the P-51D above 25K. Most of the WW2 pilots who preferred the "B" over the "D" (such as Col. "Bud" Anderson) flew B models with the V-1650-5 engine. The engine change and consequent loss of performance at 25-30K was much hated, as that's where they were doing most of their fighting.
Never seen a V1650-5 listed for the P-51B. I have never come across a V1650-5 before. Are you sure you did not mean a -3 engine.
The -3 had a 6.391:0 ratio in low and a 8.095:0 in high. The -7 changed the ratios to 5.802:1 in low and 7.349:1 in high.
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MiloMorai--you're right, I got the engine designation wrong. I meant the V-1650-3. I appreciate the correction, as I use this sort of information very rarely these days.
J_A_B
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so if u had to pick one, d or b, what will it be.
I myself cant say, a fight between the 2 of them comes down to the pilot. Its a great plane, in most cases if there faster then u u can turn better, if they turn better u are faster, keep ur e and u are a rough customer, and if u get in trouble she will bring u home. NO wonder men fell in love wit her, i would be heart broken if they made me go home after haveing somethin like that.
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I just finished a book by an A-36 pilot, he said the CW back then was guys who wanted to be heros flew the 51 & guy who wanted to go home alive flew the 47...of course he survived 3 emergency/crash landings in his A-36...:noid :noid :noid
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IIRC the V-1650-5 was a version planned for the Airacobra or the Kingcobra.
gripen
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Originally posted by Widewing
In what way? The P-51B is lighter, turns smaller circles and is generally swifter on the controls. Aside from lacking two MGs, it gives up little to the P-51D in performance and offers superior handling.
Many WWII pilots found themselves dissatisfied with the P-51D, preferring their old P-51Bs and Cs. Note also, that 2/3rds of the P-51C run were fitted with the same engine as the P-51D... Meaning that they had slightly better performance than the later model because they were lighter and a bit cleaner in terms of drag.
My regards,
Widewing
I read a book by a retired Colonel/ace who fought in Italy area---he tried the "D", went back to "B" (He DID allow that the "B" had thinner wings, thus causing the guns to be mounted a bit sideays, causing occasional jams)
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James Howard, the "One man Air Force", had only one gun going by the end of his famous fight...
he was ina B
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Originally posted by J_A_B
The AH P-51B makes for a fine perk farmer, but understand that it doesn't really shine unless you take it up really high.
J_A_B
Any suggestions on how to get a fight that high? I normally fly bombers at at least 16k, and even take them up to 20-25k, and ther3es never anyone above the clouds. You may occasionally have a single fighter come in at 16, but thats it.
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Any suggestions on how to get a fight that high? I normally fly bombers at at least 16k, and even take them up to 20-25k, and ther3es never anyone above the clouds. You may occasionally have a single fighter come in at 16, but thats it.
Tell the 56th where you'll be :aok
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Originally posted by bj229r
I read a book by a retired Colonel/ace who fought in Italy area---he tried the "D", went back to "B" (He DID allow that the "B" had thinner wings, thus causing the guns to be mounted a bit sideays, causing occasional jams)
Myth.
The only difference (shape) between the B/C wing and the D wing was the D had more crank to the leading edge inboard of the landing gear. This was accomplished with the root airfoil being extended.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Myth.
The only difference (shape) between the B/C wing and the D wing was the D had more crank to the leading edge inboard of the landing gear. This was accomplished with the root airfoil being extended.
Indeed, I've had many vets claim that the P-51D "had a thicker wing than the P-51B". It didn't... Modified internal structure, but same outside dimensons.
My regards,
Widewing
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ok anyone who's brought this up with me in the game knows what I think, but anyway, the B kicks the D's shiny metal butt, lol, it turns better, it doesnt really give up much in the guns, just makes you a better shot, and like I said before I figured out how to use the zoom, what's the use of a bubble canopy if the frigging seat blocks your view???
Mako
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Actually, it is my understanding that the D's bubble created turbulence which is why the B is 4 to 5 mph faster.
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so mako says b model
b model 1
d model 0
i cant choose, i have done the fight both ways, in the d against the b and the reverse, i won both so that doesnt sway the scale either way. The biggest factor in a fight between the 2 is the guy in the cockpit, i had a b model on top of me and i had NO e and i ended up wit my guns to his head. Its a mood of the day which decides which one i take out. unless i noe im shootin at heavier targets then d model is a must(even though 6 50s arent meant to bring down bombers).
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O/T...
Milo, i am shocked and outraged that i am not on your "posts worth reading" list. :cry :mad: :mad: :furious
Oh.. and p51b is a much nicer handling plane, but the D with the added punch is better for a combat situation in AH.
If you want to do pretty aerobatics, acm and 1 vs 1 fighting go for the B.
If you want to go in, murder lots of things and make your shots count, the D is better.
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"The B had a stability problem just like the D only not as bad. Late production Bs got the fin fillet the Ds got."
"Actually, it is my understanding that the D's bubble created turbulence which is why the B is 4 to 5 mph faster."
I thought that the bubble canopy caused a turbulence wich caused the D to snake in high speed, and that was the reason why the tail fin fillet was added, where as the B didn't need it. It surprises me that also the late Bs had it.
-C+
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Is this the 'all hail the B model' thread or something? Is there some romantic notion that flying the B gains you more respect than flying the D? People are strange at times. They're both good at different applications.
The way i look at it is that if you flying/fighting below about 12-13k your distinctly better off in the D, if your above that your probably better off in a B. Obvious engine performance differences asside, your more likely to need the extra punch of the 6 50s down low (more cons) than up high (where its more likely a more even fight - eg 1 on 1s etc). Engine differences make the B definetely the kite to be in in a scrap above 14K for sure, and you can and do notice the climb performance differences. But as most scraps happen below 10k, your handicapping yourself flying the B both in eng perf and gun perf at 'normal' engagement alts.
The difference in turn rates is negligable, and pilot skill would have determined the outcome long before raw A/C ability.
As for the saying "if ya cant kill with 4, ya wont kill with 6" doesnt change the fact that if you can kill with 4, 6 is going to kill quicker every time, and sometimes thats the difference between landing and bailing.
My 2 cents.
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Originally posted by Spatula
Is this the 'all hail the B model' thread or something?.....
Sorry that it upsets you that there are a few of us who happen to like the B model more than the D model and wish to discuss the difference.
And just so you know Mister Spatula, I have a P-51B shrine set up in my room. Its setting on its rudder with its nose in the air, pointing towards the skies above. Each night before I go to bed I light some Frankensense and Myr and place the sticks in the gun barrels. While they are burning I pray to the P-51B god that only those who follow the path of the 51B will Know the peace and serenity brought unto ones self when flying such a beautimous aircrarft in the virtual skies. I then touch the wingtips, wiggle the tail, and do a little happy dance before going to bed.
Now if I could just fly it better than I do, virtual life would be grand.
:)
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Originally posted by Wolf14
Sorry that it upsets you...
No, im not at all upset. Like i said they're both great planes.
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ok so furball is a d model guy
wolf is b model
2 B model
1 D model
which do u like best, vote on it. If ur one of those flavor of the day guys and cant choice like me just call it even.
1 guys that just like the mustang :aok
biggest factor between the 2 is the pilot.
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D pont is what i prefer. For its 6 guna package. And the "feel" of the way it flies. To me they feel a lot different.
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2 b mobel
2 d model
1 undecided
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In Aces High - as an aficionado of the Mustang and with a fair amount of time in both the D and B models I would probably go with the D more than the B.
The main reason for me is the gun package since I find that a fair number (20-30%?) of my shot attempts in flying the Mustang are quick snapshots or very brief tracking shots. The extra 2 guns make a big difference in the D where in the B those shots have a lower % of resulting in lethal damage.
The Bravo is slightly more maneuverable though - I think owing to the lower weight (less 2 guns and the associated ammo) and slightly greater wing surface area as well. I find that I can turn just a wee bit better in the P-51B and follow bandits easier where in the D I'd be already hitting the edge of the stall.
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Historically and Aerodynamically...
I believe the P-51D bubble canopy actually resulted in more drag for the Mustang vs. the B. Can't remember the text but I think Roskam's Aero textbook mentions that specifically. I believe the reason for this is that the teardrop canopy's tail-end slope results in some turbulent airflow just behind the canopy vs. smoother flow along the existing "keel" behind the canopy of the P-51B.
The P-51B didn't suffer from directional instability until the installation of the additional 85 gallon tank behind the cockpit. On the P-51D with the absence of the fueslage keel directional instability was much more of an issue therefore the dorsal fin was installed. AHT mentions that some Mustang pilots lamented the dorsal fin because they couldn't do some of the violent maneuvers that the could have done with Bravo.
The B's guns suffered a lot of jamming because the guns and ammo feed were placed at sharp angles which lead to infuriating gun jams while in combat.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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3 d model
2 b model
1 undecided
Anybody else, What about wide wing, B or D and no, no corsairs:lol
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Dmodel..
p.s not to run of topic bkbandit where in brooklyn do you live im over here in Queens.
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B. Feels a bit more responsive and gives a lot more perks
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4 d models
3 b models
1 undecided
Im in gravesend now, heard of ceasars bay? im about a 5 minute ride from there.
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Originally posted by bkbandit
Im in gravesend now, heard of ceasars bay? im about a 5 minute ride from there.
Yea Ive heard of it im in glendale,queens.
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i dont noe if its me becoming a grump or the stupidity of the people around here but im starting to hate living around here, i rather be in the middle of the neveda desert flooring the gas pedal then dealing wit these morons.
If only p51 had the k14 gun site, i have seen other threads that talk about the b29 gun site, but we have no k14, cant have things like that in the game but it would be nice.
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D, more firepower and slightly faster down low.
B, better handling.
I prefer the B, unless I get a D im chasing (or an LA-7) who just runs away cuz he finished his 750mph vulch run and now wants to land his single kill, to make his mommy proud.
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4 b models
4 d models
1 undecided
too close to call, big factor is the gun package. If u cant hit wit 4 u wont hit wit 6 i guess means nothin in aces high. I agree, when i need to give a guy a solid punch 4 50s are kinda weak but that agility puts the b model back into the fight.
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My ownly serious gripe about a B is when you tackle a formation of buffs alone, its hard to down more than 2 without getting low on ammo, or exposing yourself to a lot of return fire, which is also bad. Vs fighters its fine.
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It looks like its safe to call this one a draw and just say that p51 is a great plane period. Shes fast shes pretty she has a solid gun package and she gets the job done.
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B model
anything that enabled me to fly harder and push the limit is why i would fly the B
over the D
i flew to win angles as long as i won the angle i could set up a gunshot very easily and the B model was better for me then the D model
same reason i flew the F4U-1 over all the other F4U's because it had the best agilty of all of them
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For pure 1v1 dominance take the P-51B. An unqualifed and unquantified vote. It just feels better in a dogfight.
For attack and general MA environment take the P-51D, 50% more firepower and it seems a bit more durable.
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B model w/ a Malcolm Hood.
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P51D model with the 4-gun option > than all.
Great ammo load, and the lightness and maneuverability of a P51b. I bet it's all psychological of course, but it sure feels alot more nimble than the 6-gun option.
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Originally posted by bkbandit
It sucks that ever time i leave it and fly somethin else i always come back to it. Ill fly f4u for a month then hellcat, but that dam 51 pulls me back in.
Its because your enstict feel the hart of the beast (fighter).
And Pony is The Fighter. And its not a pony, its an apaluza.
It takes more skills to fight (and win) flying a pony than a f4u or f6.
(i talk about dogfight, not cherrypicking).
Pony is the more E thirsty fighter.
Once someone learn to use E, and learn to use gravity as 2nd wep,
Then he fly the best fighter of wwii.
Keep it fast, nose down, uping only for shoot.
Use 1-2 nots of flaps But only as time you need Not more.
Gravity can be your best friend or if you forget her, can kill you.
Slow & high you can still survive diving,but low and slow you are dead meat .
Exept if you are Wildthing ;)
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Old thread, but i would like to know if anyone else feels that the B Pony is a little more sensitive as a gun platform?
The nose seems a little unstable for me when trying to line up the shot.
Thanks.
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now that u mention it, i've read in a bunch of places about how the tail filet/dorsal fin added to bubble top planes was there to improve directional instability caused by the kewl new canopies & that it did indeed fix the problem, but i've never heard if a bubbletop with a fillet was a bettar gun platform than a razorback...
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I do better in the D, but the B is a lot of fun. I prefer the quick snapshot and killing buffs, so that extra pair of .50s comes in mighty handy. Better rox and 1,000 pounders on the D also make it much more potent for JaBo runs.
Plus I'm usually ENY'd out of the D and forced to fly the B, so I get forced into it a lot.
Biggest problem I have with the B is lethality. I'll fire a burst that should kill someone (in a D or a 47), but it only smokes them or knocks off a few pieces. Messes me up the first few times until I get re-acquainted.
My best runs in each are equal (7 kills landed), but I've done it several times in a D to only once in a B (granted I only strted flying the Pony extensively in December when I joined the 4th...)
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Originally posted by Wolf14
. Each night before I go to bed I light some Frankensense and Myr and place the sticks in the gun barrels.
:)
Ok I can see ya using frankensense like that but man ur waisting that Myr.
Afterall it's an extract made from a certain plant,with the latin genis of canabis,sub indica......
Enjoyed for thousands of years in certain areas...:O ;) ;) :aok :rofl
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The P-51D with four guns is only a hundred pounds lighter than it is with six guns, because of the ammunition increase. That's according to the E6B thing.
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addendum-
Landed 5 1/2 B-24s in a B last night, so maybe the difference in firepower is mostly in my head...
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I prefer the B over the D in everything but long distance escort. Other than the F4U-4 I just have an affinity for the mid and early war planesets. Of course the Tuskegee Airmen made themselves a bit of notoriety in the B/C models, and having met several of them, I like feeling "connected" in some way.
OTOH, I'd groundloop a real warbird in a heartbeat if ever given the opportunity :D
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Just to point out, even though it's a B vs a D, doesn't mean it's mid or early war. It's still very late war (second half of '44). :aok
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The P-51B showed up in Europe in late-1943. That's still mid-war, really.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
The P-51B showed up in Europe in late-1943. That's still mid-war, really.
What he said.
MugZ, I've never had in issue with the weapon platform in either model (the P38G, OTOH, is an entirely different story)
[hijack]
I find the F4u (not C or 4) planes more challenging than the P51D for many reasons I won't get into here, but the D is a indeed a fine aircraft)
[/hijack]
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
[hijack]
I find the F4u (not C or 4) planes more challenging than the P51D for many reasons I won't get into here, but the D is a indeed a fine aircraft)
[/hijack]
The hogs can play the E game just as well as the pony.
However it is much more difficult for the pony to play the TnB thing than the hog.
Just saying.
Bronk
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I'm with Bronk. The F4U Corsair can do everything the P-51 can do and a lot more. It's faster, climbs better, accelerates better, and turns better.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
I'm with Bronk. The F4U Corsair can do everything the P-51 can do and a lot more. It's faster, climbs better, accelerates better, and turns better.
Only the F4U-4. The P51D is faster & has a better climbrate than all the other hogs (but of course, it turns much worse)
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
It's faster, climbs better, accelerates better, and turns better.
No, no, no, and yes.
I had a feeling this wasn't the case (from personal experience in both sets of planes) and checked. Quite interesting. The f4u definitely has an edge in flaps and gear and handling and ammo load, but the p51s are faster and climb better and acceleration is about even.
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=f4u1&p2=f4u1d&p3=p51b&p4=p51d
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Just to clarify all I'm saying is the hog can play the E game just as effective as the mustang. Not climb better, accelerate or faster. It makes up for these in zoom, dive and roll.
Now lets see a 51 dump e faster than a hog, and float around as well full flap low and slow.
Bronk
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Check the Dash Four, Krusty. By the way, while doing some figures for another set of ships, I noticed that while dropping flaps cut turn radii by about 27% on many ships (P-38, P-47, Me-109, FW-190, Ki-84, and even the La-7), the F-4U Corsair gets its turn radius cut by a whopping 40%. The P-51, on the other hand, only obtains a 21% cut.
I wonder what it is about those first six ships which causes them all to have the same approximate fraction of their turning circle removed with flaps (especially interesting since the P-38 and Ki-84 had Fowler flaps). Moreover, I wonder what it is about the Corsair that causes it to do so much better in this. It's not as if it had Fowler flaps or anything special.
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Originally posted by Hades55
It takes more skills to fight (and win) flying a pony than a f4u or f6.
Every plane takes skill to be able to fight successfully in.
ack-ack
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When most folks say "the F4u" they don't mean the -4. It's the exception to the rule, and is perked for a good reason.
All versions except the -4 are inferior in climb and speed, and only match the acceleration of the p51s.
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I was working with a guy who flies the P-47s as his MA ride. He's been going through a flat spot (all pilots hit these bumps in the virtual road from time to time) and wanted to work on his ACM. We began flying the P-47D-11. After an few duels, I took a D-25 trying to even out things a bit as he was struggling some. Not even enough. So, I grabbed a P-51D.
If I flew a pure E fight, the P-51D was perfectly adequate. However, if I dumped flaps and maneuvered, the Mustang was badly outclassed by the D-11. I switched to the P-51B and there was little improvement.
This was really bothering me. Flaps out, the P-51s are absolute pigs. Indeed, the P-51B has a turn radius that is nearly 70 feet greater than the P-47D-11.
Consider that a low fuel P-51B (25% gas) weighs right around 9,000 lb and the P-47D-11 (25% gas) weighs about 12,200 lb.
This results in respective wing loadings of:
P-51B: 38.59 lb per sq/ft
P-47D-11: 40.66 lb per sq/ft
Even with flaps up, the P-47D-11 out-turns the P-51B. That simply should not be the case.
P-51s and P-47s have a similar maximum coefficient of lift.
P-51B: 1.89
P-47D: 1.93
If we take the wingloading and divide it by the co-efficient of lift, we have a reference indicator of turning ability.
So, for the P-51B: 38.59/1.89 = 20.42
For the P-47D-11: 40.66/1.93 = 21.07
Thus, the P-47's turn radius should be 103% of that of the P-51B (clean, no flaps).
Unfortunately, in the game it's backwards.
P-51B turn radius, clean: 758.2 feet
P-47D-11 radius, clean: 748.4 feet
Thus, the P-51B's turn radius is 101.3% of that of the P-47D-11.
So, in AH2, the P-47D-11 turns slightly smaller circles than the P-51B. Adding flaps in increments results in the P-47 gradually turning smaller circles until at full flaps, the difference in just short of 70 feet. This results in the P-51B turn radius being 113% of that of the P-47D-11.
From: wwiiaircraftperformance.org
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/mustang-tactical-header.jpg)
BRIEF TACTICAL COMPARISON WITH SPITFIRE XIV
Maximum Endurance
25. By comparison the Spitfire XIV has no endurance.
Maximum speed
26. There is practically nothing to choose in maximum speed.
Maximum climb
27. The Spitfire XIV is very much better.
Dive
28. As for the Spitfire IX. The Mustang pulls away; but less markedly.
Turning Circle
29. The Spitfire XIV is better.
Rate of Roll
30. Advantage tends to be with the Spitfire XIV.
Conclusion
31. With the exception of endurance, no conclusions should be drawn, as these two aircraft should never be enemies. The choice is a matter of taste.
BRIEF TACTICAL COMPARISON WITH TEMPEST V
Maximum endurance
32. By comparison, the Tempest V has no endurance.
Maximum speed
33. The Tempest V is 15-20mph faster up to 15,000ft. There is then no choice until 24,000ft when the Mustang rapidly pulls ahead, being about 30mph faster at 30,000ft.
Maximum climb
34. These compare directly with the results of the speed tests. At similar performance height, the Tempest has the better zoom climb.
Dive
35. The Tempest tends to pull away.
Turning circle
36. The Tempest is not quite as good.
Rate of Roll
37. The Tempest is not so good. This attribute of the Tempest V may be improved upon in later aircraft.
Conclusions
38. The Mustang has endurance and general performance above 24,000ft. Conclusions should not be drawn below this height, but the Tempest has a better speed and climb below 10,000ft.
Note that the AH2 Tempest out-turns both the P-47D-11 and the P-51B...
When the drag model was revised, the P-51s suffered a large hit to their turn radius, especially with flaps out. They went from reasonably capable to absolutely helpless in an instant. Only the Fw 190A-8 and F-8 have larger turn radii than the P-51D.
This is another thing that needs to be looked at. Our P-51s have lost much of their luster. I'm hoping that HTC looks at them again before Combat Tour debuts.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Our P-51s have lost much of their luster. I'm hoping that HTC looks at them again before Combat Tour debuts.
Nah the '51s feels alright this time.
Last year (or 2) you can pretty much outturn many planes at very slow speeds (even the spit) with '51s wonder flaps (TM), which is downright and outright B.S.
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Originally posted by 1K3
Nah the '51s feels alright this time.
Last year (or 2) you can pretty much outturn many planes at very slow speeds (even the spit) with '51s wonder flaps (TM), which is downright and outright B.S.
Please post your data/flight logs to back this up.
Bronk
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Yeah, even before the revision we used to outturn Ponies in 109s at most altitudes in the AvA. Its gotten worse now, but its by no means gone from being totally uber to useless.
btw, I never use flaps to turn, so I can't offer an opinion on performance there.
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Originally posted by 1K3
Nah the '51s feels alright this time.
Last year (or 2) you can pretty much outturn many planes at very slow speeds (even the spit) with '51s wonder flaps (TM), which is downright and outright B.S.
Even if I believed you had some basic understanding of what I've discussed, I'd still label your post as baloney.
At their best, when AH2 was first released, P-51s could not out-turn Spitfires. Not even close. At best, they could almost almost turn with a Spitfire XIV when using full flaps. The current modeling is substantially different, with the P-51D only able to out-turn the 190A-8, 190F-8 and the Me 262. It is inferior to every other fighter. In the real world, that simply was not the case.
When the drag modeling was changed (at the time that the revised Bf 109s were introduced), the P-51 was adversely affected more than any other fighter.
These are indisputable facts:
P-51s had a lower wingloading than P-47s at normal combat weights. P-51s had a nearly identical coefficient of lift to that of the P-47.
Thus, P-51s should have smaller turning circles than all of the P-47s. The Brits certainly thought that this was the case.
(http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/wade-turning.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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So did the American P-51 pilots. The father of one of my old squadron members flew P-51s as a gunnery instructor, and his words were "turns almost as good as a Spitfire." Since the P-51's the worst turning fighter in the game barring the FW-190, that statement cannot possibly be made with any credibilty of the P-51 in Aces High II.
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glad i looked this up, think i found some usefull info. I've been in the 51d as of late and i'm just dead meat flying around in that thing. I tried the B was worried about the guns and landed 4 kills first time. only reason i have to fly the D is the veiw and extra guns.
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Extract from WW2aircraft.net:
Bf 109K-4 Aerodynamic statistics:
Wing-loading *Loaded*: 191.9 kg/sq.m. (39.2 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 6.06 .
Airfoil: NACA 2R1 14.2 - 2R1 11.35.
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 14.2% Tip= 11.35%.
Wing CL-max *Freeflow*: 1.48 . (No slats or flaps deployed)
Lift-loading *Loaded*: 129.69 kg/sq.m. (26.5 lbs/sq.ft.)
Power-loading *Loaded*: 1.57 kg/hp. (3.47 lbs/hp.)
P-51D Mustang Aerodynamic statistics:
Wing-Loading *Loaded*: 196.33 kg/sq.m. (40.5 lbs/sq.ft.)
Wing Aspect-Ratio: 5.81 .
Airfoil: "Laminar" NAA/NACA 45-100 - NAA/NACA 45-100.
Airfoil Thickness Ratio: Root= 14.8 or 15% Tip= 12%.
Wing CL-max *Freeflow*: 1.28 . (No flaps deployed)
Lift-loading *Loaded*: 153.38 kg/sq.m. (31.6 lbs/sq.ft.)
Power-loading *Loaded*: 2.49 kg/hp. ( 5.49 lbs/hp.)
Wing Cl-max were obtained from:
Bf-109: from full scale Windtunnel test in Charlais Meudan.
P-51: from Naca Report 829, Page 26 in the PDF of the Naca Report server.
:huh
-C+
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Worth noting is that the aircraft being measured in NACA report 829 is a P-51B, and the 1.28 CLmax value is for the aircraft with no propellor and it's gun ports open. Units often did cover these ports with tape to clean up the wing. In the report it lists the CLmax at 1.39 with them covered. Interestingly NACA also tested the aircraft with 3/4" holes drilled in their covers to allow for the guns to fire, and got a result of 1.37. Would shot through tape with a 1/2" hole perform better or worse? Who knows.
(http://www.web-birds.com/8th/4/VF-N-e-mail--pic-44.jpg)
This shot shows a 4th FG P-51B with the gun ports taped.
Interestingly the P-51D wing had a much different design for the gun ports. The openings were smaller and faired, and often still taped by ground crews.
(http://www.web-birds.com/8th/364/belle.jpg)
This is a 364th FG P-51D with it's gun fairings taped. Both photos came from http://www.web-birds.com.
As a reference point, the report also gives the CLmax of an F4U-1 Corsair, in the same service condition (open gun ports etc) as the P-51 as a mere 1.17! An F6F recorded a 1.28-1.29 in service condition. They also mention in the report that flying aircraft with turning propellors would return higher values then static aircraft in their wind tunnel, so YMMV.
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Hm... the Bf 109 in Chalais-Meudon was the V24 with 15,1m2 wing, on the slots report says:
"Der Vorflügel war während des grössten Teiles der messungen im eingefahrenen Zustand blockiert. Stichmessungen mit ausgefahrenen Slot ergeben in beiden Fällen etwa gleich grosse Ca max Werte."
And these are measurements were done at low mach numbers.
Regarding the rest, if I multiply claimed 191,9kg/m2 wing loading with the wing area of the Bf 109K, 16,05m2, I get 3080kg while the claimed loaded weights for the K-4 were around 3300-3400kg ie the fuel tank must be about empty. In the case of the P-51D claimed wingloding corresponds about 9377lbs ie fuselage tank about empty but wing tanks about full. Calculating the weight out from the claimed power loading reveals something else...
edit: corrected a typo