Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: sullie363 on August 19, 2006, 12:41:28 PM
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Almost to the day one year ago, the Bish took P62 on the current map and held off numerous attempts made by the Rooks to take it. The way we held them off was by keeping the CV close allowing LVTs to spawn directly onto land allowing constant resupply. After hours of constant fighting and resupplying, the situation was ended when a certain high ranked player switched sides from the Rooks to the Bish to move the CV away allowing the Rooks to take the base. They claimed they tried every single thing they could to take the base and this was the only way to end it.
Well today, we had the same exact situation except the roles were reversed. This time the Rooks had P62 and the Bish were trying to take it. For hours and hours we both fought over the base trying to end the never ending resupply just as the Rooks had over a year ago. However the key difference is how the situation came to an end. A few diehard, never say die, Bish drove GVs over a sector to take out the LVTs as they spawned putting an end to the resupply and allowing us to take the base. I guess the base wasn't impossible to take after all, it just required some determination. WTG Bish on a fine job.
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That was one fun thread :)
WTG to those tankers. I'd never have the patience to do that, but I do have to give them credit, they seem to have done one heck of a job. :aok
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:rolleyes:
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let me get this right...you remember what happened in this game a year ago?
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Not so much, I have a screenshot from that original fight and it's dated August 14, 2005 so that's how I know.
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Damn, you take base taking WAY too seriously.
:huh
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In short... Who cares?
Lemme know when the Bish cure AIDS or cancer. That'll be worth a thread.
My regards,
Widewing
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:rofl
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Originally posted by Baylor
let me get this right...you remember what happened in this game a year ago?
I sure remember the thread... That was a good few days worth of entertainment :aok
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Originally posted by Delirium
Damn, you take base taking WAY too seriously.
:huh
:aok
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Originally posted by Delirium
Damn, you take base taking WAY too seriously.
:huh
I guess the point was (is).........is not so serious as to need to jump countries...........steal the CV...........in order to capture a base.
Well done Bish........good thinkin.
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Actually has nothing to do with base taking. Hell myself and others were having great fun with just the never ending fight. This thread is mostly directed at all those people a year ago who defended their decisions with now proven false reasoning. It comes down to that Bish were able to work together and pull something off that the Rooks deemed absolutely and totally impossible. And when the Rooks were in the same situation, they resorted to have one person use rather low tactics instead of just fighting like normal. This is vindication for everyone who was called cheaters and bug exploiters last year and a very big we told you so.
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Originally posted by sullie363
This is vindication for everyone who was called cheaters and bug exploiters last year and a very big we told you so.
Actually, that is your opinion and nothing else, and surely not vindication. The only thing this does prove is that the map bug was not fixed, and that the Rooks (and I suspect the Knights) are just as willing to use the bug as the Bish were last year. Using this bug is not cheating, but it is exploiting a known bug no matter who does it. I defended Zazen last year, and I would have any Bish if they had switched to move the CV.
Just because you busted the ressuply does not legitimize exploiting the LVT spawn bug.
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Hey I was online as a rook when that happend. Funny as hell!:rofl
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I think we should wait for the arch statistician himself to pronounce on this alarming development, but preliminary findings show that Rooks, do indeed, suck. I'm sure he will agree ;)
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Originally posted by Grits
Just because you busted the ressuply does not legitimize exploiting the LVT spawn bug.
No, but it does show (as we stated at the time) that there WAS a way to overcome the alleged explotation of the bug.
Maybe this is why the bug has not been fixed...HTC sees that it is not impossible to overcome the situation, therefore there is nothing that need to be fixed.
Was there another alternative? Yes, we saw the instant gratification alternative in all its glory last year.
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Originally posted by Grits
Actually, that is your opinion and nothing else, and surely not vindication. The only thing this does prove is that the map bug was not fixed, and that the Rooks (and I suspect the Knights) are just as willing to use the bug as the Bish were last year. Using this bug is not cheating, but it is exploiting a known bug no matter who does it. I defended Zazen last year, and I would have any Bish if they had switched to move the CV.
Just because you busted the ressuply does not legitimize exploiting the LVT spawn bug.
Grits, Bish don't get much to brag about. Let em have there 15 seconds of fame:lol
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(http://f10.putfile.com/thumb/8/23023363289.jpg) (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3231589)
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Originally posted by Grits
Actually, that is your opinion and nothing else, and surely not vindication. The only thing this does prove is that the map bug was not fixed, and that the Rooks (and I suspect the Knights) are just as willing to use the bug as the Bish were last year. Using this bug is not cheating, but it is exploiting a known bug no matter who does it. I defended Zazen last year, and I would have any Bish if they had switched to move the CV.
Just because you busted the ressuply does not legitimize exploiting the LVT spawn bug.
Exactly Grits, and thank-you. What was not achieved by myself or by Bish was a 'reasonable' solution to the exploitation of a loophole in the practical dynamic of in-game supply. By 'reasonable' I mean a solution either hard-coded into the game itself (no immediate dry-land spawn and re-supply) or a solution by players that does not require an effort that goes...way...way... way beyond the normal course of gameplay. If the only solutions to this problem thus far is either a high ranked player switching to remove the exploitation itself or several individuals investing literally hours of boredom and tedium, manually driving a GV overland to set-up a spawn camp of the exploitation, then the fact is the game is clearly broken in this regard...We should not be required to step far out of the bounds of normal gameplay to fix a problem of mechanics and community exploitation, that is simply 'un-reasonable'.
Although HiTech never commented publicly on this issue last year, I strongly 'suspect' the hours and hours of programming time required to fix this unusual and geographically conditional problem far out-weighs its overall impact on gameplay. In trying to fix this isolated oddity of the re-supply dynamic and geography it's entirely possible HTC could break other things, or worse, in the process.
By the way, the reason I was able to fix the problem last year in about 2 minutes as opposed to the minimum 2 hours it took Bish this year was the fact I out-ranked any Bish online at the time. If you looked at the roster this year at the time, you'll notice there's not a snowball's chance in hell any Bish out-ranked a Rook online at the time. So, while I applaud the alernative solution, it was only a necessary alternative because the solution we chose last year was not an option for Bish....So perhaps parking the 'holier than thou' attitude in the garage is appropriate? ... ;)
Zazen
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(http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/misc15.jpg)
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Originally posted by Zazen13
If you looked at the roster this year at the time, you'll notice there's not a snowball's chance in hell any Bish out-ranked a Rook online at the time. So, while I applaud the alernative solution, it was only a necessary alternative because the solution we chose last year was not an option for Bish....So perhaps parking the 'holier than thou' attitude in the garage is appropriate? ... ;)
Zazen
So let me ask you this...were you online at the time this took place recently? Did you actually see that there wasn't "a snowball's chance in hell" that any Bish outranked a rook at the time?
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I'm always on in one form or another . ;)
Zazen :cool:
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I'm always on in one form or another . ;)
Zazen :cool:
Is that so?
I wonder, why did Bish have to resort to driving a sector in GV's to end the alleged explotation of the bug this time when a fine upstanding community member such as yourself who's interested in "maintaining the integrity of gameplay" could have just "removed it from the range required to perpetuate the exploitation of the re-supply bug"?
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Zazen no disrespect intended with my post Bro., if you took it that way then please accept my sorries.
I don't agree with your resolve to the problem a year ago, but at the same time I don't agree with the Bish's resolve..........driving 2 hours with a Tiger!!!!! OMG bored to tears :cry
Seems to me, IMHO, the resolution would be to add spawn points. I have no idea how hard this would be, I'm the original dweeb when it comes to puters & programming. To me it seems as simple as highlight, copy, and paste........but then what do I know.
What I do know is, currently we have to take measures in our own hands to resolve the problem, which is either jump countries, or drive cross country for 2 hours..................neithe r of which is right. Hopefull HTC will give some input on this subject, they're pretty good about saying "why or why not".
Rokit
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Originally posted by Donzo
Is that so?
I wonder, why did Bish have to resort to driving a sector in GV's to end the alleged explotation of the bug this time when a fine upstanding community member such as yourself who's interested in "maintaining the integrity of gameplay" could have just "removed it from the range required to perpetuate the exploitation of the re-supply bug"?
Maybe because I no longer play for rank and my rank is over 1000! :lol
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Maybe because I no longer play for rank and my rank is over 1000! :lol
Zazen
Ha ha...that's pretty funny alright.
Originally posted by Zazen13 (08-14-2005 10:22 PM)
When it was determined that there was absolutely no possible way this base could be taken so long as Bishops chose to abuse the re-supply exploit we discussed other options. The 'final solution' as it were, was to have myself, who at the time out-ranked any Bishop to switch to Bishops to gain control of the CV just long enough to remove it from LVT re-supply exploit range. I did not come to this decision alone, it actually wasn't even my idea, Rooks discussed it in comittee and only after exploring absolutely every other possible option. I did this and gave up control once it was just far enough away to prevent LVT's from being able to instantly spawn on P62 and re-supply it.
Tell me, did this discussion take place this time?
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Originally posted by LTARokit
Zazen no disrespect intended with my post Bro., if you took it that way then please accept my sorries.
What I do know is, currently we have to take measures in our own hands to resolve the problem, which is either jump countries, or drive cross country for 2 hours..................neithe r of which is right. Hopefull HTC will give some input on this subject, they're pretty good about saying "why or why not".
Rokit
Yea, no problem. The point of this post today was not to defend my position so much. The point was to re-iterate what I said a year ago, and what you just reworded here. The simple fact is placing this 'unreasonable' burden on the players/customers to resolve a game mechanics issue that results in frustrations and ill-will between hundreds of people in the community is inappropriate.
To be perfectly honest, if a year ago had the thought occurred to me (or any other Rook) to drive a Tiger overland for 2 hours to spawn camp the exploiters I still would have opted for the 2 minute solution of moving the CV out of exploitation range. The fact that we the players/customers are put in a position to have to choose between those two 'un-reasonable' and unsavory options is a testament to the fact that the game is broken in this isolated regard.
Whether HTC deems this breakage severe enough to warrant the investment of copious amounts of map re-working/programming is entirely up to them, but until they do, it is by default up to us the players/customers to resolve this exploitation issue as we collectively see fit whenever it rears its ugly head.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Donzo
Tell me, did this discussion take place this time?
Yea, there were discussions, divisive, resulting an alot of angst and boycotting of that part of the map by the moral majority. Suffice it to say Rooks are demographically much different now than they were a year ago.The impetus to troublshoot a solution was not as forthcoming when on the other end of the 'fiddle-stick' as one would expect given human nature.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Yea, there were discussions, divisive, resulting an alot of angst and boycotting of that part of the map by the moral majority. Suffice it to say Rooks are demographically much different now than they were a year ago.The impetus to troublshoot a solution was not as forthcoming when on the other end of the 'fiddle-stick' as one would expect given human nature.
Zazen
How convenient.
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Originally posted by Donzo
How convenient.
It doesn't take a someone with a PhD in Psychology to realise that basic human nature, especially when extrapolated to the scope of group dynamics, largely dictates reactions to problems. Unless morality and a sense of fairplay kicks in, which is on a higher mental level than basic human nature, those victimized by exploitation are going to be more upset, therefore motivated, than those perpetrating it to find a viable solution....
Zazen
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Why not just bomb the carrier? :huh
I know it would respawn, but thats why you cap it with bombers. Keep some good BUFF drivers over the port, and just smash the CV any time it spawns? And dont argue that whole "Ack" problem, just fly high. Bombs do just as much damage from 15,000 feet as from 5.
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Why not just bomb the carrier? :huh
I know it would respawn, but thats why you cap it with bombers. Keep some good BUFF drivers over the port, and just smash the CV any time it spawns? And dont argue that whole "Ack" problem, just fly high. Bombs do just as much damage from 15,000 feet as from 5.
LVT's can spawn whether the carrier is "alive" or not. That is the problem, so long as the Task Group is left adjacent to the port, LVT's can immediately and perpetually spawn on land and drop supplies to instantly re-supply P62 until the end-of-time. So bombing the CV does nothing to solve the re-supply exploit...
Zazen
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Hmm good point.... Maybe a mass mission to kill the whole TG? :D
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Hmm good point.... Maybe a mass mission to kill the whole TG? :D
It doesn't matter, LVT's can spawn even if there are no boats at all left in the Task Group...Makes no sense, I know, but that's the way it works and part of the problem...
Zazen
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I think HiTech said he would be sending envelopes full of "white powder" to anyone who tried to exploit this bug again. (This will of course start an endless whining thread about "terroristic threats").
-MI-
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(http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/sucks.gif)
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I'm not familiar with the port that is discussed here, and I'm a little confused why LVT's spawning on this port is such a problem. I thought that supplies had no effect on hanger down time. Are the LVT's spawning close enough to town to kill troops? Also, do the supplies effect the down time of the town?
Lambo
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Why not just skip all the hours upon hours of supposed bug fixing and just move the port from the east to the west side of the island. I'd have to imagine this would cause all LVTs to spawn in the water like any other base as there would no longer be this big chunk of land in between the CV and the port.
Zazen, you are correct that neither solution was a practical or reasonable one. The difference is ours stayed within the scope of normal gameplay while yours broke some MA ethics (for lack of a better term). You're right in your guess that we did not have the highest ranked player on at the time, LYNX at #6 was pretty hard to top. If we had had the highest ranked player we may of followed your example, I don't know. But in the end I'm glad we were forced into fighting for it like normal because it revealed that the base was not impossible to take as previously stated by numerous Rooks.
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Originally posted by sullie363
Why not just skip all the hours upon hours of supposed bug fixing and just move the port from the east to the west side of the island. I'd have to imagine this would cause all LVTs to spawn in the water like any other base as there would no longer be this big chunk of land in between the CV and the port.
Zazen, you are correct that neither solution was a practical or reasonable one. The difference is ours stayed within the scope of normal gameplay while yours broke some MA ethics (for lack of a better term). You're right in your guess that we did not have the highest ranked player on at the time, LYNX at #6 was pretty hard to top. If we had had the highest ranked player we may of followed your example, I don't know. But in the end I'm glad we were forced into fighting for it like normal because it revealed that the base was not impossible to take as previously stated by numerous Rooks.
Well, you took the high ground. Next time, call your friendly neibourhood knights, and the 303rd wil come hit 'em hard enough to make em re-think being an arse :D :D :D
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Originally posted by sullie363
Zazen, you are correct that neither solution was a practical or reasonable one. The difference is ours stayed within the scope of normal gameplay while yours broke some MA ethics (for lack of a better term). You're right in your guess that we did not have the highest ranked player on at the time, LYNX at #6 was pretty hard to top. If we had had the highest ranked player we may of followed your example, I don't know. But in the end I'm glad we were forced into fighting for it like normal because it revealed that the base was not impossible to take as previously stated by numerous Rooks.
Driving a vehicle overland from one base to another (25+ game miles) without the benefit of spawnpoints, is hardly anywhere close to 'normal gameplay'. I can't think of another possible scenario where it would make any sense in the normal course of gameplay to spend 2+ hours manually driving a tank to a field. Likewise I can not think of any other situation it would be necessary to commandeer another country's CV. I also would not have faulted Bishops one bit had they had the ranking person to commandeer Rook's CV to remove the exploit just as I did.
I agree that it was not a perfect solution, but neither is wasting 2 hours of several people's lives to only be assured the mere possibilty of fixing an exploit (your Tanks could have been egged/killed before they got the camp nailed down after your 2 hr drive, wasting your effort)...Obviously, commandeering another country's CV is frowned upon and inappropriate during the normal course of gameplay, but as we've established ad nauseum, this situation is far out of the bounds of normal gameplay and therefore commandeering a CV would present an acceptable solution under the circumstances.
Zazen
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I still say bomb it! :D
Or, maybe leave it as the last of that countries bases? No WAY those few LVTs could fight off two countries worth of pilots.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Driving a vehicle overland from one base to another (25+ game miles) without the benefit of spawnpoints, is hardly anywhere close to 'normal gameplay'.
...but it demonstrates ethical gameplay.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
... Suffice it to say Rooks are demographically much different now than they were a year ago...
Zazen
Say it aint so! I seem to remember your posts a while back explaining rooks innate superiority, how they had forged their brotherhood, their exceptional skills, in the white hot maelstrom of battle! That similar warrior like, nay, godlike players would naturally gravitate towards them, thus ensuring the glorious rookland domination for a thousand years!!!!!!
Are you saying now that rooks are just like everyone else? Or, perish the thought, they may even be a little bit sucky?
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or, you could halted the attack for a bit, let the CV sail away, THEN took the port.
I for one don't really have an issue w/ the lvt's spawning on land "issue"
Sometimes the best way to take a field is to not attack it for a 1/2 hour, then up a fresh mission.
I DO applaud the pure gumption of driving 2hours in a Tiger. Something I would never do in a gazillion years.
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Originally posted by WMLute
or, you could halted the attack for a bit, let the CV sail away, THEN took the port.
I for one don't really have an issue w/ the lvt's spawning on land "issue"
Sometimes the best way to take a field is to not attack it for a 1/2 hour, then up a fresh mission.
I DO applaud the pure gumption of driving 2hours in a Tiger. Something I would never do in a gazillion years.
Yeah, thats some dedication. But again, the answer to life "Bomb it." LVTs constantly spawning just means more kills for our heavies. Up with 100lb bombs, and just drop whenever you see the b@stards.
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Originally posted by Trikky
Say it aint so! I seem to remember your posts a while back explaining rooks innate superiority, how they had forged their brotherhood, their exceptional skills, in the white hot maelstrom of battle! That similar warrior like, nay, godlike players would naturally gravitate towards them, thus ensuring the glorious rookland domination for a thousand years!!!!!!
Are you saying now that rooks are just like everyone else? Or, perish the thought, they may even be a little bit sucky?
Alot of Rooks today were Bishops back then, thus the 'dumbing down' of Rooks collective skill quotient...sadly... :cry
Zazen
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Originally posted by thndregg
...but it demonstrates ethical gameplay.
....Which was only entertained as an option because my option was not available to Bishops. Had it been I assure you a reasonable deduction of the alternatives would have produced the same result. We did not have to contemplate a hideous 2 hr tank drive with an uncertain chance of success, a better, foolproof, and immediate solution was available. The ethical responsibility of removing an abused exploit, in this unusual circumstance, far outweighs the consideration of the sactity of a country's CV when it itself is the object and tool of the exploitive behavior.
Zazen
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Still, you guys touched something you ought not to have touched.
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So let me just sum this up...
This is an argument about a year old argument?
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Alot of Rooks today were Bishops back then, thus the 'dumbing down' of Rooks collective skill quotient...sadly... :cry
Zazen
hehe,We stole Castro"s brilliant strategy. we emptied our jails,insane asylums, and were able to dump other undesirables on you.it seems our plan is working.ALL HAIL, THE GREAT MARIEL BOATLIFT:D
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I would rather stick sharp pencils in my eye rather than drive 1+ sectors in a Tiger.
Zazen's solution was much more eloquent to short circut a flaw in the game dynamics.
Gameplay ethics ? ... please direct me to a web page or some other source where these ethics are discussed.
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Originally posted by Widewing
In short... Who cares?
Lemme know when the Bish cure AIDS or cancer. That'll be worth a thread.
My regards,
Widewing
Amen
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Originally posted by Simaril
So let me just sum this up...
This is an argument about a year old argument?
Great isn't it? :D
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Alot of Rooks today were Bishops back then, thus the 'dumbing down' of Rooks collective skill quotient...sadly...
I missed the intelligence exam that splits the players up to the different countries. I guess me is wun of teh dum ones that isn't smert enough to be on Zazen's team. How sad for me. A thousand applauds to the Bish GVers who showed what can be done if you dedicate extra time and effort to a cause, besides looking for the easy way out. Pretty darn good for a bunch of dummies. Maybe next time before you do it though, attend one of Zazens intelligence and down-with-ethics classes.
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THIS JUST IN!!!....the bish have found a cure for AIDS and cancer!!!
shamus
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Originally posted by Shamus
THIS JUST IN!!!....the bish have found a cure for AIDS and cancer!!!
shamus
The at home lab kit finally come in shamus? ;)
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Ya my cat is pregnent:)
shamus
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Originally posted by Shamus
THIS JUST IN!!!....the bish have found a cure for AIDS and cancer!!!
shamus
From what I've seen in the MA lately, that cure seems to centered on suicide.....
My regards,
Widewing
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last year the bish were exploiting a bug.
this year the rooks were exploiting a bug.
and the rest of it is about ethics of all damn things, in there manner of solving bug exploiting bastards...
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I would rather stick sharp pencils in my eye rather than drive 1+ sectors in a Tiger.
Zazen's solution was much more eloquent to short circut a flaw in the game dynamics.
Gameplay ethics ? ... please direct me to a web page or some other source where these ethics are discussed.
Yup, I actually only had control of the CV for 30-45 seconds, that moved it the 300 yards needed to prevent LVT's from spawning dry directly at the port to instantly re-supply it. That beat the hell out of a 2 Hr. + drive 30 miles real distance in a tank to "maybe" get the job done, maybe not...
Had Bish had someone online at the time that out-ranked Lynx on Rooks, don't think for a nano-second they wouldn't have done exactly what I did a year ago. They chose the 2 hour + tank drive only because they lacked the Ranking person, not because of some decision based on abstract morals or game ethics...They are pawning it off as such now retrosepctively in an attempt to convince us they are somehow morally superior because of how they handled the exploit..which, of course, is complete and utter nonsense.. ;)
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Alot of Rooks today were Bishops back then, thus the 'dumbing down' of Rooks collective skill quotient...sadly... :cry
Zazen
In the voice of Donald Duck: "Well, that's gratitude for ya'!"
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These maps all blend together for me. How you remembered the base, map, date, and issue at hand is beyond me.
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See Rule #7
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Gameplay ethics ? ... please direct me to a web page or some other source where these ethics are discussed.
Do people really have to have the definition of ethics and fairness written down to enjoy ANY game? Last I checked, it was common sense.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
........... They chose ............because they lacked..........to convince us they are somehow morally superior because of how they handled the exploit...
which, of course, is complete and utter nonsense.. ;)
Zazen
At the risk of stating the obvious (common enough around here), we ought to remember that talking about "they" or "them" as if any country was an organized body is "complete and utter nonsense."
Influencing the behavior of several hundred AH players is only slightly more difficult than herding cats.
Admitting this, I also know that my attempt to insert reason and moderation into an AH BBS discussion is akin to trying to organize a joint garage sale between Serbs and Kosovars.
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Originally posted by Shamus
Ya my cat is pregnent:)
shamus
:rofl :rofl :rofl
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See Rule #7
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Alot of Rooks today were Bishops back then, thus the 'dumbing down' of Rooks collective skill quotient...sadly... :cry
Zazen
Who had control of the CV this time? Was it one of those "dumbed down" ex-Bish?
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Originally posted by Shamus
THIS JUST IN!!!....the bish have found a cure for AIDS and cancer!!!
shamus
Death ?
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Yup, I actually only had control of the CV for 30-45 seconds, that moved it the 300 yards needed to prevent LVT's from spawning dry directly at the port to instantly re-supply it. That beat the hell out of a 2 Hr. + drive 30 miles real distance in a tank to "maybe" get the job done, maybe not...
Had Bish had someone online at the time that out-ranked Lynx on Rooks, don't think for a nano-second they wouldn't have done exactly what I did a year ago. They chose the 2 hour + tank drive only because they lacked the Ranking person, not because of some decision based on abstract morals or game ethics...They are pawning it off as such now retrosepctively in an attempt to convince us they are somehow morally superior because of how they handled the exploit..which, of course, is complete and utter nonsense.. ;)
Zazen
How do you know why the Bish did what they did? Pure speculation, nothing more. But I'm sure it makes you feel better about what you did.
The one thing you fail to mention is why you did what you did. At the time you defended yourself by saying that the whole situation was "runining your squad night. Last year when this happened the Bish had just captured P62 via a sneak. We had no base anywhere near P62. The wasn't "a snowball's chance in hell" that we could mount any productive attack from that port. The VH could be supressed (resupply does nothing for the hangers). THe "bug explotation" could have been averted very eailsy by just leaving it alone. Let's look at that. Bish take P62. It stands all alone, no other friendly bases around. All they have is the port and the CV. Now if they leave it there, the resupply bug is exploited. If they move it the port us just as vunerable as any other. How long do you think the Bish would have kept the cv at the port had it not been attacked repeatedly? Did anyone over think of that?
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Originally posted by Zazen13
They are pawning it off as such now retrosepctively in an attempt to convince us they are somehow morally superior because of how they handled the exploit..which, of course, is complete and utter nonsense.. ;)
Zazen
While we are morally superior, the real point is that we showed that through using the tools the game provides that the port is not impossible to take under these circumstances. And now I have to BBQ so I'll cut it short there.
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showed that through using the tools the game provides that the port is not impossible to take under these circumstances
As did he...some of you just did not like it.
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Originally posted by COBA94
See Rule #7
HELL YEAH!!! I WOULD KILL TO GET THAT MANY PEOPLE TOGETHER IN ONE FLIGHT!!!
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Originally posted by Baylor
As did he...some of you just did not like it.
Ah yes the switch country tool. I don't think many people would look highly on players constantly jumping countries to help their original country take bases. If you're going to switch countries it should be because you've had enough of where you were and are looking for a change, not a quick sabotage to a frustrating solution.
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See I'm talkin' about the way that I'm feeling
You're so lovely lengthy and so appealing
A sassy sophisticated sexy lady
Well I'm 26 and you're 80
The clock is ticking so you better not front
We can go downtown and we could smoke some blunt
Well you're a Golden Girl, just like Bea Arthur
Just turn down the lights so we can go farther
Boomin' granny, boomin' granny
Boomin' granny, good and plenty
Because I saw ya at the check out line
You dropped your coupons and you were looking fine
Sophisticated, and so mature
I couldn't really care if you're 50 or 74
Because I want ya, and I need ya
Hey boomin' granny you could be my teacher
And I could be your pet, bet
Listen old lady I'm gonna make ya sweat!
I know I'm younger, and your much older
You look so nice on my Chevy Nova
I'm gonna take her to the low rider show, and flaunt ya
I gotta tell ya lady I said I want ya, boomin' granny
Because I need you boomin' granny
Boomin' granny, boomin' fanny
Boomin' granny, good and plenty
-
Originally posted by sullie363
Almost to the day one year ago, the Bish took P62 on the current map and held off numerous attempts made by the Rooks to take it. The way we held them off was by keeping the CV close allowing LVTs to spawn directly onto land allowing constant resupply. After hours of constant fighting and resupplying, the situation was ended when a certain high ranked player switched sides from the Rooks to the Bish to move the CV away allowing the Rooks to take the base. They claimed they tried every single thing they could to take the base and this was the only way to end it.
Well today, we had the same exact situation except the roles were reversed. This time the Rooks had P62 and the Bish were trying to take it. For hours and hours we both fought over the base trying to end the never ending resupply just as the Rooks had over a year ago. However the key difference is how the situation came to an end. A few diehard, never say die, Bish drove GVs over a sector to take out the LVTs as they spawned putting an end to the resupply and allowing us to take the base. I guess the base wasn't impossible to take after all, it just required some determination. WTG Bish on a fine job.
I remember it well and as a rook was not impressed with rooks action. As to you bish guys driving about 1.5 hours .... fair play to ya. Anyone who want to drive that far deserves a reward and in this case a port and cv.
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Originally posted by sullie363
Ah yes the switch country tool. I don't think many people would look highly on players constantly jumping countries to help their original country take bases. If you're going to switch countries it should be because you've had enough of where you were and are looking for a change, not a quick sabotage to a frustrating solution.
Again this is your opinion, who are you to say why someone switches sides? Switching countries is less dubious than exploiting the LVT spawn bug since it is intentionally part of the game design, while the bug is not.
Any, and I mean ANY[/b], method used to stop exploitation of a bug in the game is by nature justified. Zazen is also correct that if the Bish had a person with high enough rank who could have switched and moved that CV they would have, to suggest otherwise is pure delusion.
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Originally posted by Grits
Again this is your opinion, who are you to say why someone switches sides? Switching countries is less dubious than exploiting the LVT spawn bug since it is intentionally part of the game design, while the bug is not.
Any, and I mean ANY, method used to stop exploitation of a bug in the game is by nature justified. Zazen is also correct that if the Bish had a person with high enough rank who could have switched and moved that CV they would have, to suggest otherwise is pure delusion. [/B]
Did anyone get any tangible proof of any kind that the LVT spawn "bug" is a bug? Did anyone hear or read any utterance from HTC that this is a bug at all? I would like to hear from the master himself so the speculation and conjecture can cease.
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Originally posted by thndregg
Do people really have to have the definition of ethics and fairness written down to enjoy ANY game? Last I checked, it was common sense.
Your the one that brought it to the surface ... gameplay ethics ... so I figured that you had some hardcopy that supported your position ... I guess not.
Common sense tells me to dont give a ****e if I die or live ... I get a new friggen airplane every single time I die ... regardless of some sort of pseudo-ethics of pseudo-sense ... It's all about me and how I choose to spend my $14.94/month.
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Originally posted by Grits
Again this is your opinion, who are you to say why someone switches sides? Switching countries is less dubious than exploiting the LVT spawn bug since it is intentionally part of the game design, while the bug is not.
My criticism wasn't so much about why someone switches sides but how they conduct themselves once they switch.
Any, and I mean ANY[/b], method used to stop exploitation of a bug in the game is by nature justified.
To quote a good friend of mine, "This is your opinion."
---------------------
Still I feel that the point is being missed, sort of wish we had an emoticon for that. Anyway the point is the justification given for Zazen's irregular tactics was that all conventional means of taking the base had been exhausted. By conventional I mean anything that can be done within your own country. Obviously the long task of driving there in tanks was not thought of at the time. And according to Zazen, even if it had been, the option to simply grab the CV and take it away would still of been used which sort of goes against the concept of trying everything short of switching sides before actually switching sides. Wonder how long this will last before old Skuzz shuts it down, anybody want to start a pool?
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Originally posted by LYNX
I remember it well and as a rook was not impressed with rooks action. As to you bish guys driving about 1.5 hours .... fair play to ya. Anyone who want to drive that far deserves a reward and in this case a port and cv.
Anyone who want to drive that far deserves a reward and in this case a port and cv ...
nah ... better yet ...
Anyone who want to drive that far deserves a frontal lobotomy.
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Originally posted by sullie363
To quote a good friend of mine, "This is your opinion."
Ah, but side switching is part of the game, intentionally put there by the designer, not an unforseen quirk in a map. An integral part of the game was used to stop exploitation of an unintentional one, that is fact not opinion. As I said earlier in this thread, if a Bish would have switched to move the CV I would be defending that just as much as I did Zazen a year ago.
Still I feel that the point is being missed, sort of wish we had an emoticon for that. Anyway the point is the justification given for Zazen's irregular tactics was that all conventional means of taking the base had been exhausted. By conventional I mean anything that can be done within your own country. Obviously the long task of driving there in tanks was not thought of at the time. And according to Zazen, even if it had been, the option to simply grab the CV and take it away would still of been used which sort of goes against the concept of trying everything short of switching sides before actually switching sides. Wonder how long this will last before old Skuzz shuts it down, anybody want to start a pool? [/B]
It was thought of, and it was thought to be less efficient than Zazen switching and moving the CV the 300 yds it took to stop the LVT spawn exploit. The Bish did not have the option due to lack of a player outranking the highest Rook and thus had to drive Tigers for two hours, otherwise they would have done the same or do you deny that?
I think this thread has been pretty respectful so far, I dont know why skuzzy would have to lock it. Nothing wrong with arguments as long as they stay civil.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Your the one that brought it to the surface ... gameplay ethics ... so I figured that you had some hardcopy that supported your position ... I guess not.
Common sense tells me to dont give a ****e if I die or live ... I get a new friggen airplane every single time I die ... regardless of some sort of pseudo-ethics of pseudo-sense ... It's all about me and how I choose to spend my $14.94/month.
Ahhh, now the real story comes out. We're talking situational ethics.
Situational ethics don't exist, slapshot. If ethics are variable, they aren't ethics--they're just suggestions. Ethical individuals act in an ethical manner in all things, not just when it's convenient or fun.
You see, that's part of the problem, my boy. You live like you play. If you act dishonorably on the playing field, you will act dishonorably in your day-to-day interactions.
In other words, nobody can trust you. You would screw them as quickly as you would an opponent in the game. You have no honor. Even defending Zazen's position is to throw away your personal honor, and to show that you are ethically challenged.
The game world is a pseudo world, but you aren't a pseudo person, and your interactions with others aren't pseudo interactions.
Now do you finally get it, or are you so blind that you will not see?
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Originally posted by rshubert
In other words, nobody can trust you. You would screw them as quickly as you would an opponent in the game. You have no honor. Even defending Zazen's position is to throw away your personal honor, and to show that you are ethically challenged.
Please enlighten me as too how switching sides to move the CV is less ethical than exploiting a bug. Please convince me that if the Bish had a player online at the time ranked higher than all the Rooks they would not have done the same as Zazen. I would like to hear those arguments.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Anyone who want to drive that far deserves a reward and in this case a port and cv ...
nah ... better yet ...
Anyone who wants to drive that far deserves a frontal lobotomy.
That's some funny watermelon right there! Someone needs to nab this gem for sig material....:rofl
Zazen
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Originally posted by rshubert
Ahhh, now the real story comes out. We're talking situational ethics.
Situational ethics don't exist, slapshot. If ethics are variable, they aren't ethics--they're just suggestions. Ethical individuals act in an ethical manner in all things, not just when it's convenient or fun.
Wrong!
Ethics by definition is a moral code of conduct used as a paradigm within the context of the individual's society to guide one's actions in a "given situation". Allow me to illustrate. Most would agree it is un-ethical to take a human life? Correct?
What if you are at war?
What if it is a rape artist attacking your wife or daughter?
What if it's a crack-head with a switch blade at your throat..?
Get it? Ethics is very conditional and situational.
There is no absolute anything. In evaluating any situation an ethical person has to consider the possible outcomes, both from doing nothing and from doing something. The ethically correct choice is invariably the decision which best serves to do the most universal good and/or prevent wrongdoing...In my opinion, I made a decision and chose a course of action which was, under the circumstances, ethical. Would commandeering another country's CV be ethical in other situations where there was no blatant wrongdoing? Almost certainly not, but in this unique situation it was...
By the way I only did so after 4+ hours of waiting for Bish to move the CV and many, many attempts at conventional capture with overwhelming numbers to no avail due to blatant and perpetual exploitation of the re-supply bug.
Zazen
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Originally posted by rshubert
Ahhh, now the real story comes out. We're talking situational ethics.
Situational ethics don't exist, slapshot. If ethics are variable, they aren't ethics--they're just suggestions. Ethical individuals act in an ethical manner in all things, not just when it's convenient or fun.
You see, that's part of the problem, my boy. You live like you play. If you act dishonorably on the playing field, you will act dishonorably in your day-to-day interactions.
In other words, nobody can trust you. You would screw them as quickly as you would an opponent in the game. You have no honor. Even defending Zazen's position is to throw away your personal honor, and to show that you are ethically challenged.
The game world is a pseudo world, but you aren't a pseudo person, and your interactions with others aren't pseudo interactions.
Now do you finally get it, or are you so blind that you will not see?
lol, who broke out the weed. ok, i'll bite. ethics ARE variable but not suggestions. Ethics ARE a code of conduct, decided by culter/government/etc. different cultures will have different ethical beliefs. trying to equate how somehow plays a computer game vs. how they interact with life is just wierd.
your point does have several flaws though....you can't base your ideas of what is ethical on what someone elses idea's of ethical are. example, we have a profession (lawyers) which operate under ethics, ethics which say it's okay to get a defendent whom you know is guilty of the hook. to the profession they are acting ethically, but many would think the are unethical scum. out of work, they are very trust worthy..... is stem cell research ethical? depends on who you ask.
i might also add the a psuedo world has psuedo characters. these characters though controlled by real people still live in a psuedo world and are not governed by any code of ethics accept those set forth by the creator of that world (HTC). therefore, if you aren't infringing on the ethical standards set forth by HTC, then you are indeed acting ethically. BBS is the messaging extention of the psuedo world.
In conclusion, since the MA and the BBS (by extension) are psuedo worlds populated with fictious inhabitants, they can not be held to the ethics held by real world cultures, as they are only governed by ethics set forth by HTC. :) lol, how did i do?
ps, i think we are talking about gaming the game right?
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I still challenge the idea that this a bug at all and rather a victim of poor base placement. If the port was placed on the west side of the island would we still have this problem? The reason we have this issue is because the CV is almost always west of the port with a good chunk of land between the port and the CV. The LVTs are spawning at a normal distance from the target base, just they are spawning on land instead of water. So I would say this is not a bug at all and the system is working perfectly. Rather it is a case of poor base placement. Now a real bug would be if the port was on the west side of the base and LVTs spawned to the east on dry land, that would be something worth whining about. But this of coarse won't be settled until HT comes in here and says one way or the other.
And now I'm off to the beach for three days so have fun looking up ethics in the dictionary.
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Originally posted by sullie363
I still challenge the idea that this a bug at all and rather a victim of poor base placement.
Its not a bug in the game proper, its a map bug.
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It seems to me that if you want to find it reasonable that a player can switch sides to work AGAINST his new country, then you also have to say it's acceptable for any reason. So if you are going to support the moving of the CV to defeat a "bug" in the map, then support all manner of side jumping and manipulation for any reason.
It's a game and not all situations can be covered by "the rulz". Maybe it's a "bug" in the game that people can get away with doing this.
Anarchy rules!!!!!
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:rofl
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Grits just admit you have no honor. After all, this is serious business. If I don't have an honorable wingman, die and fail in taking the base, it's not like I can try again. Stop acting like this is a game, get your head into the war effort.
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Congrats to the bish who stayed within bounds to take a difficult base!!!
im sure it was extremely satisfying to not to have had to resort to cheating in order to accomplish the same!
and yes...i consider jumping countries to solve a problem "cheating". i am currently ranked in top 10 (doubt that will stay) and every night could come up with a scenario that justified jumping countries and using my rank for advantage.
"Ohh we are getting banged....let me go take all their cvs and spin them in circles"
or non rank jumping:
"ohh..we are getting banged let me jump and give intel on all missions to even things out"
"ohhh they took our port and cv and hid the cv...let me jump and findout where it is"
to lynx who gets it
and does it shock me that so many on this board dont get it? No...they treat this game like and arcade/x-box game and devalue its gameplay for personal satisfaction. "this game is too hard..lets enter the cheat codes and beat it that way" this is a whole culture guys..dont be shocked...they have magazines and forums out to help people "cheat".
i would never play battleship with zazen...im sure he moves his ships around there as well...."B3...ummmm.....one sec...B3....er miss";) but its just a game right?
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Originally posted by Grits
Its not a bug in the game proper, its a map bug.
you can spawn lvt's on land at pretty much most bases on all maps. ( if not all bases)
and it's not a "bug" so that argument doesn't fly.
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Gangbanging an opponent is both unfair and dishonorable. All of you should be ashamed of yourselves. I want fifteen Hail Mary's!
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Reynolds
YOUVE NEVER NOTICED IT?!? WHAT COUNTRY DO YOU FLY?!? Let me fill you in:
Bish= Determined, but everyone's b*tch
Knights= Great individuals who are too damned retarded to actually help each other do anything. Thats why the last time we won a map washington was crossing the Delaware
Rooks= Gods. They get the missions done, and although collectively they might all suck, 20 retards can still kill one genious. Rooks get it done.
Incidentally, i dont fly rook. Im a Knight. :cry
If only I could be as cool as a newbie. But, what you failed to grasp in your lack of humor, is that people actually rolled Tigers to a port. That in itself is pathetic.
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Originally posted by WMLute
you can spawn lvt's on land at pretty much most bases on all maps. ( if not all bases)
and it's not a "bug" so that argument doesn't fly.
CV's do not all spawn so close to their port, they can dry spawn LVT's which can immediately dump supplies and resupply, forever, until the end of time. So, saying it isn't a loophole in game dynamics doesn't fly... ;)
Zazen
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Originally posted by WMLute
you can spawn lvt's on land at pretty much most bases on all maps. ( if not all bases)
and it's not a "bug" so that argument doesn't fly.
WMLute!
Absolutely agree. I'm willing to bet this is not a bug to Zazen when he is the LVT plopped on the land a horse-**** throw away from the base or map room. Pure conjecture. We still have yet to hear from HTC if it IS or IS NOT a "bug."
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Originally posted by Zazen13
CV's do not all spawn so close to their port, they can dry spawn LVT's which can immediately dump supplies and resupply, forever, until the end of time. So, saying it isn't a loophole in game dynamics doesn't fly... ;)
Zazen
Agree. They'll whine about what you did for years Zazen. That truly was one of the funnier moments in AH.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
By the way I only did so after 4+ hours of waiting for Bish to move the CV and many, many attempts at conventional capture with overwhelming numbers to no avail due to blatant and perpetual exploitation of the re-supply bug.
Zazen
As I stated before:
The only reason the CV statyed at the port was because we were being attacked. What good is the CV to us just sitting at the port? In this case, at that port, it served the purpose of allowing us to defend the port. Did it serve any tactical purpose outside of that? Could we use either the port or CV to take another base? No, we could not. So, had the need to defend the port not existed, I imagine that we would have moved the CV out into open waters on the way to hit another base. Once we did that the port could have been attacked.
The 4+ hours was a direct result of the Bish being attacked constantly. Had those attacks stopped I'm pretty sure the CV would have been put to good use away from the port. But given the nature of gameplay it was too much fun for a lot of the rooks to vulch the spawing LVT's. So the attacks continued. Taking back the port was not necessary immediately. So what? You lost the port. Let the the Bish move the CV and then retake the port. Just because it did not happen in your timeframe does not give you right right to exploit a feature of the game (switching sides) to solved your perceived problem. What threat was there with the Bish having the port? None. You could live without it for a little while.
And another thing, did your gag order on discussing this incident expire after one year? I was just wondering why you choose to comment on this subject now.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Your the one that brought it to the surface ... gameplay ethics ... so I figured that you had some hardcopy that supported your position ...
Never needed one. I ultimately learned from my parents and others how to play fair, and being the father of three boys, I hope that those values will continue on indefinitely.
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i say
while the bish and rooks are having it out on the bbs, knits should put their bone heads together and try to win a map before..... ahh.. washington crosses the delaware..
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Gangbanging an opponent is both unfair and dishonorable. All of you should be ashamed of yourselves. I want fifteen Hail Mary's!
-- Todd/Leviathn
you tard!
:aok
-- Lee/Navajo
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Wrong!
There is no absolute anything.
Zazen
Then you're not absolutely sure about this?
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Originally posted by WMLute
you can spawn lvt's on land at pretty much most bases on all maps. ( if not all bases)
and it's not a "bug" so that argument doesn't fly.
While that is true you can get a fleet close enough on most any base, the difference here is, this fleet spawns within range to put the LVTs on dry land. This happens at no other base I am aware of, although there could be more. Respawning the CV so close is what qualifies it as a map bug.
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I have found the perfect fix for CVs that spawn amphibs on land (why have the amphibs at all?), spawncamping, sideswitching, and everything else. It's so simple, you'll be amazed.
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or. How about limiting the number of LVT's able to spawn at a friendly Port? If the Feld is a field of "Capture", then do not apply the above.
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Thanks for post Sullie. I enjoyed hearing about it. I know exactly why the moment is worth a post. WTG all who were involved. I've not flow much at all over the last year or so. Posts like yours inspire me to enjoy playing again.
hap
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Originally posted by rshubert
Ahhh, now the real story comes out. We're talking situational ethics.
Situational ethics don't exist, slapshot. If ethics are variable, they aren't ethics--they're just suggestions. Ethical individuals act in an ethical manner in all things, not just when it's convenient or fun.
You see, that's part of the problem, my boy. You live like you play. If you act dishonorably on the playing field, you will act dishonorably in your day-to-day interactions.
In other words, nobody can trust you. You would screw them as quickly as you would an opponent in the game. You have no honor. Even defending Zazen's position is to throw away your personal honor, and to show that you are ethically challenged.
The game world is a pseudo world, but you aren't a pseudo person, and your interactions with others aren't pseudo interactions.
Now do you finally get it, or are you so blind that you will not see?
Nice try shubie ...
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Originally posted by thndregg
Never needed one. I ultimately learned from my parents and others how to play fair, and being the father of three boys, I hope that those values will continue on indefinitely.
So then you would believe that a map flaw that allows a CV group to spawn right next to its port and spawn endless amounts of LVTs on dry land so that they can drop supplies ... end sortie ... spawn ... drop supplies ... end sortie ... repeat ad nauseum ... to be "fair" gameplay?
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It's quite simple, Slap.
Ethics in AH 101
Anything (you/your squad/country/mission/people you like) does to gain an advantage in the game is ethical. Anything the bad guys do to either accomplish the same thing, or prevent you from doing so, is unethical.
Get it?
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Had Bish had someone online at the time that out-ranked Lynx on Rooks, don't think for a nano-second they wouldn't have done exactly what I did a year ago. They chose the 2 hour + tank drive only because they lacked the Ranking person, not because of some decision based on abstract morals or game ethics
My, my ,my you have everyone figured out, huh? Not everybody is as crooked as you sweetheart. In fact, you are the only one who's stooped this low as far as I know. Try not to pull something patting yourself on the back.
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ok i'll take a bite at this.........
this thread is first all about how the bish overcame a base...ok cool with me, i like reading positive things
then it turns to a "bug" on the map........i don't follow, what's the bug? there's been a bunch of times i've seen lvt's spawn feet dry....no bigs
then it turns into "this guy on this country switched to my country with high rank to keep the cv out of lvt range...........ok that's shady but whatever, it's a game right?
then it goes into ethics of an online game.......ummmm........uhhhh .....ok....i have no comment on that......
my point is, what is this thread really about???????????
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Yup, I actually only had control of the CV for 30-45 seconds, that moved it the 300 yards needed to prevent LVT's from spawning dry directly at the port to instantly re-supply it. That beat the hell out of a 2 Hr. + drive 30 miles real distance in a tank to "maybe" get the job done, maybe not...
Zazen
This is a clear-cut confession to a serious infraction..How long must we wait before this man/woman is brought to justice ???
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^^:rofl :lol :rofl
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Originally posted by mojo7
This is a clear-cut confession to a serious infraction..How long must we wait before this man/woman is brought to justice ???
:rofl Infraction? Justice? :rofl
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Originally posted by Nightshift82
then it turns to a "bug" on the map........i don't follow, what's the bug? there's been a bunch of times i've seen lvt's spawn feet dry....no bigs
OK, I'll state this one more time as clearly as I can.
Yes, many times a fleet can get so close it can spawn LVT's feet dry, that in itself is not the issue. This is a bug in the map because the point at which a fleet respawns is set as part of building the map, it is not random. This particular map was built so that the fleet in question respawns next to its HOME port (the one you have to take to "capture" the fleet) so close that you can instantly resupply it and bring ack back up. No other fleet respawns so close that it can instantly resupply its home port. Killing the fleet has no effect because you can continue to spawn LVT's after its dead. It is a map bug plain and simple.
So, there are two ways to take this port:
Someone with enough rank changes sides and moves the CV 200-300yds away from the port (thats all it takes).
OR
Drive two+ hours in a GV from a base a sector+ away.
Last year Rooks had a player of high enough rank to switch and take control of the CV. This year the Bish didnt so they drove GVs.
My only real beef is that the Bish pretend that if they had had a player ranking higher than any Rook that they still would have driven GV's a sector+ away which is nonsense.
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sorry grits that doesnt hold water...
purpose of this post was obviously to congratulate bish on not cheating...dont see how that has you believing they would if the opportunity presented...2 highest ranked squads are bish...im sure there would have been someone with rank on at some point.
secondly...there is a third way to take this airfield....bypass it....and come back later when it is moved....that cv is rarely in port unless it is fresh killed...i hate to bring a concept such as strategy into this highminded discussion but it is how that port is usually taken...
instead you continue to ignore/condone the point that one person's actions (misdeeds) can affect the gameplay of 50+ people trying to play the game within the rules.
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:rofl
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Originally posted by FALCONWING
sorry grits that doesnt hold water...
purpose of this post was obviously to congratulate bish on not cheating...
Zazen switching sides (an intentional component of the game) is cheating, but exploiting a known bug in the map is not? Please explain, I want to hear this. And yes, I do believe that if the Bish had a person with the rank to move that CV they would have, for you to deny that is downright silly at best, disingenuous at worst.
instead you continue to ignore/condone the point that one person's actions (misdeeds) can affect the gameplay of 50+ people trying to play the game within the rules. [/B]
Zazen used a function of the game HT put there on purpose to move the CV, while the other side exploited a bug in the map, yet you say Zazen commited the misdeed? Please explain.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Anyone who want to drive that far deserves a reward and in this case a port and cv ...
nah ... better yet ...
Anyone who want to drive that far deserves a frontal lobotomy.
Well.... I was trying to be nice and your darn right. Once again Bish prove to be better on the ground than in the air :D
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Originally posted by Grits
While that is true you can get a fleet close enough on most any base, the difference here is, this fleet spawns within range to put the LVTs on dry land. This happens at no other base I am aware of, although there could be more. Respawning the CV so close is what qualifies it as a map bug.
Exactly, this is the only base that has ever been a problem.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Donzo
And another thing, did your gag order on discussing this incident expire after one year?
Obviously! ;)
Zazen
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"Known Bug" this. "Known bug" that. By who's official definition? Not one person so far to my knowledge has asked the maker of this game if it IS or IS NOT a bug. This is still an argument based on conjecture. Where is the tangible evidence that this is an oversight by HTC? Or will Hitech eventually state this is not a bug, if he says anyithing at all? One wonders where this infinite debate will turn pending a response.
ASK HTC.
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Originally posted by thndregg
"Known Bug" this. "Known bug" that.
So you dont think its a bug? If it is not, why dont all CVs respawn close enough to their home port to put LVTs on dry land?
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Originally posted by Grits
Zazen used a function of the game HT put there on purpose to move the CV...
Do you think that HT's purpose for allowing people to change sides was to allow them to move another team's CV?
Wow.
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Originally posted by thndregg
"Known Bug" this. "Known bug" that. By who's official definition? Not one person so far to my knowledge has asked the maker of this game if it IS or IS NOT a bug. This is still an argument based on conjecture. Where is the tangible evidence that this is an oversight by HTC? Or will Hitech eventually state this is not a bug, if he says anyithing at all? One wonders where this infinite debate will turn pending a response.
ASK HTC.
If HTC admits publicly this is a bug, then they put themselves into a position of having to invest the programming/re-mapping time to fix it to maintain product integrity, which is almost certainly not worth the effort and most probably alot more complicated than we might guess.
This issue has in 2 years only reared its ugly head twice and only at this one particular base which is rarely fought over on that map. I think an intelligent person can deduce from HTC's reaction, or more aptly, non-reaction to my solution a year ago what their feelings are on the subject of the P62 exploit. The community troublshooting a solution by whatever means on the rare occassion it occurs is doing the job evidentally as far as HTC is concerned... ;)
Zazen
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Originally posted by Grits
So you dont think its a bug? If it is not, why dont all CVs respawn close enough to their home port to put LVTs on dry land?
We could think this thing to death. I still say, GO TO THE SOURCE OF THE PROGRAMMING. I will not theorize.
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Originally posted by thndregg
We could think this thing to death. I still say, GO TO THE SOURCE OF THE PROGRAMMING. I will not theorize.
You think HiTech or Pyro are not aware of this or do not read the boards? They are choosing not to get involved, which is their subtle way of saying, "Deal with it guys, it rarely happens, we know it's broke, but it ain't worth pushing other projects back to fix"...So deal with it we will, in the most expedient manner available, be that 2 hour tank drives or a 2 minute trip to the offending country to pull the exploiting CV 300 yards away from the beach....
Zazen
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Originally posted by Grits
Zazen switching sides (an intentional component of the game) is cheating, but exploiting a known bug in the map is not? Please explain, I want to hear this. And yes, I do believe that if the Bish had a person with the rank to move that CV they would have, for you to deny that is downright silly at best, disingenuous at worst.
The port is of no value. The CV is of value if it is moved out to attack another base. I would be all for letting the port be and attacking it after the CV has left. If the other team decides to let it sit there, so be it. Doing so is not a threat because the CV is worthless sitting at the port.
Another thing to point out about last year's incident. The rooks had buff's up constantly and were sinking the CV right after it spawned. Why would we move the fleet? Just so the rooks could re-take the base? We would have move the CV had we not been attacked constantly. We did what we had to do, Zazen did what he WANTED to do. There is a difference.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
The community troublshooting a solution by whatever means on the rare occassion it occurs is doing the job evidentally as far as HTC is concerned... ;)
Zazen
All this BS!
You have yet to tell us why it was so important for you to move the CV.
What was the threat of the Bish having a port and CV surrounded by rook bases?
Why was it SOOOOO important to move that CV?
You come off like you did some noble thing. For what reason?
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Originally posted by Donzo
The port is of no value. The CV is of value if it is moved out to attack another base. I would be all for letting the port be and attacking it after the CV has left. If the other team decides to let it sit there, so be it. Doing so is not a threat because the CV is worthless sitting at the port.
Another thing to point out about last year's incident. The rooks had buff's up constantly and were sinking the CV right after it spawned. Why would we move the fleet? Just so the rooks could re-take the base? We would have move the CV had we not been attacked constantly. We did what we had to do, Zazen did what he WANTED to do. There is a difference.
First off there's 2 bases within a sector of P62, the CV left there is usefull. Secondly, a year ago Bish were making no attempts to move the CV from the port...ever, under direct attack or not. When I took control of the CV it was human set in a tight patrol as close to the port as the interface allowed. Bish were not ever going to move the CV, and the CV was serving as a launching point to strike the Rook base 1 sector to the south. When I did move the CV, which took about 30 seconds the entire Bish nation freaked out realizing the exploit was over, they all went apechit.
I did what was necessary to remove the exploit. Driving a GV for 2 hours to spawncamp lvt's never occurred to me, but had it occurred to me I still would have chosen the far more expedient method of simply pulling the CV 300 yards away from the port to prevent exploit.
Had I had the rank yesterday on Rooks I would have done the exact same thing, even though it was my own team abusing the exploit. Had I out-ranked a high Bish player who came Rooks to pull the CV away from the port a bit I would have done nothing to stop him from doing so...Simply put, moving the CV is just the most intelligent and expedient way to solve this particular and incredibly rare problem when it occurs.
Zazen
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Thank God it's not a game of tennis. Someone would serve the ball to me, run over to my end of the court, and shove me aside.
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Originally posted by thndregg
Thank God it's not a game of tennis. Someone would serve the ball to me, run over to my end of the court, and shove me aside.
I'd actually watch that! Maybe someone should implement that!
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This is fantastic, you all are arguing about something happened over a year ago.
First things first, Zazen didn't act alone, and it wasn't his idea, a bunch of us egged him on and convinced him to do it. Secondly, everything he did was in the rules of the game, you can change sides once within a certain period of time and you can do whatever you want after you change sides, including moving the CV. He didn't take away any air power and he didn't stop the airborne defense, he just stopped the resupply. The rooks still had to take the base.
Third, this game is exactly like every XBOX, playstation, commodore64 or atari game ever made. It isn't a culture and it isn't a reflection on your true life persona, its simply a hobby you pay just under 15 bucks a month for. If you think it is a culture, quit paying the 15 bucks, and all of your culture will be gone. This works just like every online community. If you want to claim you are a nazi prostitute that was abducted by aliens and forced to join a weight loss program, you can, and it doesn't change who you are.
Honor and ethics aren't coded into the game, so any reference to them and this game has to be completely fabricated by your version of this online reality.
BTW, Shamus, that pregant cat thing was hilarious! :aok
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Originally posted by Howitzer
Honor and ethics aren't coded into the game,
You're absolutely right. They are hopefully supplied by players of any game.
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Originally posted by thndregg
You're absolutely right. They are hopefully supplied by players of any game.
The more you talk about ethics and proper upbringing with regards to a wargame you play, and how they only apply to us and our actions, and not your own use of an exploit, the more foolish you sound.
Add to that the fact that you girls are still crying about someone else ending your exploit, add it appears not only foolish, but disturbing. I remember a few interesting things that have happened over the years, but I'm not pissed off over any of them. Seriously guys, unknot those panties and get on with your lives.
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Lol some of you take this game way to seriously.
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Originally posted by Messiah
Lol some of you take this game way to seriously.
Nah, it's nap time for you Messiah. :aok
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Originally posted by Grits
OK, I'll state this one more time as clearly as I can.
Yes, many times a fleet can get so close it can spawn LVT's feet dry, that in itself is not the issue. This is a bug in the map because the point at which a fleet respawns is set as part of building the map, it is not random. This particular map was built so that the fleet in question respawns next to its HOME port (the one you have to take to "capture" the fleet) so close that you can instantly resupply it and bring ack back up. No other fleet respawns so close that it can instantly resupply its home port. Killing the fleet has no effect because you can continue to spawn LVT's after its dead. It is a map bug plain and simple.
So, there are two ways to take this port:
Someone with enough rank changes sides and moves the CV 200-300yds away from the port (thats all it takes).
OR
Drive two+ hours in a GV from a base a sector+ away.
Last year Rooks had a player of high enough rank to switch and take control of the CV. This year the Bish didnt so they drove GVs.
My only real beef is that the Bish pretend that if they had had a player ranking higher than any Rook that they still would have driven GV's a sector+ away which is nonsense.
I'm still not buying that it's bug thing, oh well.......
And do you have that much bitterness toward a team in the game????
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Ask any coader...or in this case map-makers...there are no such things as bugs...they are all just features.
============================
Oh and shubie...ethics and morality in a cartoon-airplane game...that made my morning...I cannot wipe this silly grin off my face thinking about you getting so wrapped up in this as to assign such values in real life...sounds like you need one...a real life that is...step away from the keyboard mate and get some sun or a job or a girfriend.
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Actually that last big islands map we had, there was something similar that happened. We (rooks) had a CV close to an enemy field. Spawning lvt's put you on land just outside of the town.
Theres another AF that we went to later that there was a tiny little island the lvt's spawned on just outside the town. There was only maybe a 20 second window to spawn in to get onto the little island. The best part was, if you spawned on the island you can let your troops out and they run across the water and enter the town. We ended up having a flood of troops running like crazed drunks to a tavern. Regardless, we took the base
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Originally posted by Nightshift82
And do you have that much bitterness toward a team in the game????
I dont have a set country, I switch nearly every time I play.
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Originally posted by Howitzer
[BIf you want to claim you are a nazi prostitute that was abducted by aliens and forced to join a weight loss program, you can, and it doesn't change who you are.
only three people in the world knew this.i dont appreciated being outted on a public forum. :furious
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Originally posted by Grits
My only real beef is that the Bish pretend that if they had had a player ranking higher than any Rook that they still would have driven GV's a sector+ away which is nonsense.
100% speculation on your part as to WHAT the Bish would have done.
We already know WHAT the Rooks did.
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Originally posted by Meatwad
Actually that last big islands map we had, there was something similar that happened. We (rooks) had a CV close to an enemy field. Spawning lvt's put you on land just outside of the town.
Theres another AF that we went to later that there was a tiny little island the lvt's spawned on just outside the town. There was only maybe a 20 second window to spawn in to get onto the little island. The best part was, if you spawned on the island you can let your troops out and they run across the water and enter the town. We ended up having a flood of troops running like crazed drunks to a tavern. Regardless, we took the base
As I have a rod up my arse about Cv command I can confirm that if you manouver the Cv to the exact right spot on most but not all bases, will allow LVT dry spawn. You just gotta launch in LV T's a few times to understand how and where to place the CV in relation to where your LVT just spawned. You get an understanding after a bit. However, thats not the arguement here. It's about a Cv in port it's own port. This map, this port is the only 1 that I know of that spawns LVT dry onto it's port from the get go. No manouvering nothing. Cv up, spawn,sups out as simple as that.
Should HTC extend the spawn point out another 1/4 mile? Maybe ! Should the attackers stay away 30 min to allow Cv to leave spawn point? I think so.
I am not elaborating any further on the art of dry spawn:noid
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Originally posted by LYNX
Should the attackers stay away 30 min to allow Cv to leave spawn point? I think so.
DING DING DING
We have a winner. :aok
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oh no a rook thought this thru and figured out what to do without cheating....
bish in truble now...lynx you may have to leave rooks now you have figured out how to do what numbers can not:aok
this board has now obviously backfired on us....OUT!
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Originally posted by Donzo
100% speculation on your part as to WHAT the Bish would have done.
We already know WHAT the Rooks did.
Wasn't it a Bishop who moved the Bishop CV the last time this exploit was carried out? After I thought about this a bit, I realized that unless the game has been changed, a Rook could not command a Bishop CV.
So, presuming the code hasn't been changed, we know a Bishop moved the CV last time. To say it wouldn't have been done ignores the fact that it has already been done, ya know?
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Originally posted by FALCONWING
oh no a rook thought this thru and figured out what to do without cheating....
Who cheated?
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Wasn't it a Bishop who moved the Bishop CV the last time this exploit was carried out? After I thought about this a bit, I realized that unless the game has been changed, a Rook could not command a Bishop CV.
So, presuming the code hasn't been changed, we know a Bishop moved the CV last time. To say it wouldn't have been done ignores the fact that it has already been done, ya know?
LOL :rofl
What are you talking about? Of course a Bish moved the CV. The fact is that the "Bish" that moved the CV was a rook that switched sides for the sole purpose of moving the CV.
Nice try.
This was a lame attempt at logic.
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Originally posted by FALCONWING
oh no a rook thought this thru and figured out what to do without cheating....
bish in truble now...lynx you may have to leave rooks now you have figured out how to do what numbers can not:aok
this board has now obviously backfired on us....OUT!
logical to have left port alone but as seen this weekend and 1 yr ago it's easier to lead a horse to water than make it drink.
DING DING :D
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Okay, so think about this. You and your friend are playing chess, a game of clearly defined rules and etiquette. Suddenly your friend says, "I have decided that you cannot take my queen. Should you take my queen, I will simply put it back on the board again wherever I want."
You decide that this is a pretty unreasonable addendum to the rules, so you tell him, "Okay, now all of my pieces can move like a queen." And you promptly move your pawn all the way across the board, take his king, and call it a day. He gets mad about this, so mad in fact that one year later he brings up that game again because he feels you unfairly and dishonorably beat him.
Sound familiar? That's how this entire conversation comes across to me, and all this high and mighty talk of values and honor seems pretty silly in that context. You're all a bunch of gamey dorks.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Donzo
LOL :rofl
What are you talking about? Of course a Bish moved the CV. The fact is that the "Bish" that moved the CV was a rook that switched sides for the sole purpose of moving the CV.
Nice try.
This was a lame attempt at logic.
Nope, it was pure logic and factual.
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Originally posted by straffo
Nope, it was pure logic and factual.
Explain please.
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:lol
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I'm thinking this snippet pretty well sums it up:
Originally posted by Donzo
a Bish moved the CV.
Everything else in your prior post is either speculation or opinion, so I cropped it out.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I'm thinking this snippet pretty well sums it up:
Everything else in your prior post is either speculation or opinion, so I cropped it out.
I'm thinking that you have no idea what happened.
It's very simple. Zazen was a rook, he switched to Bish to move the CV. End of story. So, yes, your statement that "a Bish move the CV" is factually correct. What you are missing is the fact that the Bish that moved the CV was someone who switched for the sole purpose of moving the CV.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Okay, so think about this. You and your friend are playing chess, a game of clearly defined rules and etiquette. Suddenly your friend says, "I have decided that you cannot take my queen. Should you take my queen, I will simply put it back on the board again wherever I want."
You decide that this is a pretty unreasonable addendum to the rules, so you tell him, "Okay, now all of my pieces can move like a queen." And you promptly move your pawn all the way across the board, take his king, and call it a day. He gets mad about this, so mad in fact that one year later he brings up that game again because he feels you unfairly and dishonorably beat him.
Sound familiar? That's how this entire conversation comes across to me, and all this high and mighty talk of values and honor seems pretty silly in that context. You're all a bunch of gamey dorks.
-- Todd/Leviathn
How dare you call me gamey!!!!! Its on buddy!
Just so you know Gonzo, hub knows all to well what happened, he was one of the instigators that talked Zazen into it.
:D
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Originally posted by Donzo
What you are missing is the fact that the Bish that moved the CV was someone who switched for the sole purpose of moving the CV.
No, I am not missing the fact, because that is not the fact. That is your opinion. It is incorrect. Zazen switched sides for the sole purpose of making the rest of you whine for a year. Moving the CV, which effectively thwarted the exploit, and set the stage for the subsequent capture, was just a bonus.
And, he was a Bish. Not a rook. The minute he clicked that change country button, he was dead to us true rooks.
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I don't think that I would be able to take any of you with me hunting trolls. EVERYBODY went right past the one that opened this thread.
-Frode
:lol
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Originally posted by Donzo
Explain please.
The initial sentence was :
Wasn't it a Bishop who moved the Bishop CV the last time this exploit was carried out? After I thought about this a bit, I realized that unless the game has been changed, a Rook could not command a Bishop CV.
Now, let check the veracity of each subpart :
-Wasn't it a Bishop who moved the Bishop CV the last time this exploit was carried out? = true
-After I thought about this a bit, I realized that unless the game has been changed, = not signifiant
-a Rook could not command a Bishop CV.= true
and Boole said : true.true = true
or true + true = true if you prefer this syntax
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
And, he was a Bish. Not a rook. The minute he clicked that change country button, he was dead to us true rooks.
He wasn't dead he was red.
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how did this thread get tp four pages????????????????
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I think the meat of the matter is the map design. Having dead fleets being able to supply things, long enough until it respawns is silly.
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Now that I'm home and have read the two new pages I'll respond even though my timing is off. Some how I get a feeling that not all of you have actually looked at the base in question. Over and over again I read that the CV from P62 spawns so near its home port that the LVTs are able to spawn right to the port. This creates an image of a CV spawning a few hundred yards off the docks and LVTs appearing on top of the base thus making it a bug. This is not the case however. P62 is on the east side of a small peninsula. The CV actually spawns, at what seems to be the normal spawn distance, almost behind the port to the northwest of the peninsula. I suppose the small channel between the peninsula and the mainland is too small for the CV to fit. Anyway I went offline for a couple minutes and did some checking. An LVT is able to spawn at the port of any freshly spawned CV. I did some comparing and found that the LVTs are spawning no closer to P62 than they are any other port when the CV is brand new. So why are they spawning on land? Because that peninsula is in the way. Having the CV spawn behind the port creates the parameters for the LVT to spawn on dry land. While there's a lot of ports on many maps, I can't think of any other terrain design and spawn point placement that would allow for this to happen.
And now just for Grits, here's my opinion. It is not a bug at all of any kind. Instead it is a combination of factors all purposely designed into the game. It may of not been intended to happen, but everything is behaving as it should. If P62 was on the west side of the peninsula then LVTs would spawn like they do at every other port, bobbing in the water in front of the dock. So, Zazen used a designed element of the game to put an end to the use of another designed element of the game.
Now I'm trying to get inside HT's head when these basic elements were first designed. Are CVs meant to fight, yes. Are LVTs meant to resupply, yes. Are CVs supposed to be able to land LVTs feet dry as soon as they spawn, I seriously doubt it. Are players expected to use every advantage to win, I would think so. Was the change country option intended to be used as we've seen it used here, I would doubt it but preventing it from happening would spark more drive for higher rank so maybe.
And for the hell of it, to all the guys who only come into say we're arguing entirely about something that happened a year ago. No we are not, but this is complicated so I'll type slowly. What happened a year ago is not in dispute. Instead, two separate incidents which happened about one year apart are being compared because they share common components.
I typed way more than I planned on, beer anyone?
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Originally posted by sullie363
And now just for Grits, here's my opinion. It is not a bug at all of any kind. Instead it is a combination of factors all purposely designed into the game. It may of not been intended to happen, but everything is behaving as it should. If P62 was on the west side of the peninsula then LVTs would spawn like they do at every other port, bobbing in the water in front of the dock. So, Zazen used a designed element of the game to put an end to the use of another designed element of the game.
I can agree with that sullie.
The only thing I would add is, part of building a map is checking things like spawn points and adjusting them so you dont get this result. Now it is more trouble than it is worth to fix just for the rare occasion that there is a problem with it.
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It wouldn't totally surprise me now if this happened more and more. The first time, and I think even this last time, happened by accident. Now a few people may actually try for it knowing what will happen. Might be no choice to bust open the old terrain editor and move that port a tad to the left.
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i agree with filth....when a cv dies the capability of a cv should die as well....if you cant up planes you shouldnt be able to spawn pt boats and lvts either...i thik that while cvs may die to easily they also have to much power compared to an airfield.
i also think that the la7 does not have historical modeling..by this i obviously mean that there should be 1000 rounds of cannon and apporximately twice as much fuel....(please see reference "Planes of WW2: A Non-Historical Approach, by Bull Sheetz 2006) sorry i would have used footnotes but cant figure out how...
:aok
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Originally posted by FALCONWING
i agree with filth....when a cv dies the capability of a cv should die as well....if you cant up planes you shouldnt be able to spawn pt boats and lvts either...i thik that while cvs may die to easily they also have to much power compared to an airfield.
Personally, I've always felt that the LVTs should spawn from the escorts and not the CV. Killing the DEs with the CV should have the same impact as killing troops at a field.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Personally, I've always felt that the LVTs should spawn from the escorts and not the CV. Killing the DEs with the CV should have the same impact as killing troops at a field.
I like that idea. Would add a little more spice to things, more tactical variation to work through.
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Originally posted by Simaril
I like that idea. Would add a little more spice to things, more tactical variation to work through.
Yeah ... but HT hates NB with a passion ... so it will never fly.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Driving a vehicle overland from one base to another (25+ game miles) without the benefit of spawnpoints, is hardly anywhere close to 'normal gameplay'. I can't think of another possible scenario where it would make any sense in the normal course of gameplay to spend 2+ hours manually driving a tank to a field. Likewise I can not think of any other situation it would be necessary to commandeer another country's CV. I also would not have faulted Bishops one bit had they had the ranking person to commandeer Rook's CV to remove the exploit just as I did.
I agree that it was not a perfect solution, but neither is wasting 2 hours of several people's lives to only be assured the mere possibilty of fixing an exploit (your Tanks could have been egged/killed before they got the camp nailed down after your 2 hr drive, wasting your effort)...Obviously, commandeering another country's CV is frowned upon and inappropriate during the normal course of gameplay, but as we've established ad nauseum, this situation is far out of the bounds of normal gameplay and therefore commandeering a CV would present an acceptable solution under the circumstances.
Zazen
In spite of Zazen's obvious game skill, eloquent prose, and reasonable tone, the end result is, he is an "end justifies the means" kind of person. What this mentality gets you is the ability to rationalize anything, including yourself right out of any principles that you may hold. As a real world example (and oh so contemporary), do we lock down the U.S. so tight as to be completely secure from terrorists that we impact or even eliminate individual American liberties? Does the end (absolute security from terrorists) justify the means (suspending the constitution, in part or whole)? Or do we trust to the value of our freedoms and the resolve it gives us, and fight without ruining our way of life - as the terrorists would have us do?
I prefer NOT to use any type of cheat or shady ethics in my gameplay. Others do and they are weak of character. They are the first to run when the going really gets tough, in my opinion. It's really that simple. They are most likely the ones who cheat in school becasue they can't make the grade any other way. Personality is revealed here as everywhere else. You are known by what you do.
If there is an exploitable bug, and no solution in proper play, I just don't play there. Simple solution. There is some downside as the enemy continues to exploit, but I'm big enough to survive that. I don't schlepp over to the other side to "fifth column" the game, cause I don't believe that is intended game play and only belittles me.
Those on the other side of the fence don't even understand what I'm talking about and will try mightly to justify and convince everyone that what they do isn't so bad cause... "It's just a game!" What it really is, is another, different type of social interaction with people, though rather annonymous. And while not critically important in the scheme of the universe, it still shows up what kind of people we are by how we play the game.
I'll fight fair and square, or even at a disadvantage if that's the scenario I'm presented with. I won't initiate taking an unintended (by HiTech) or "unfair" advantage. Why? That's my principle and who I am.
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WW2OL is like that, drive a minimum of 30 minutes and then just get bombed by an enemy AC or have someone snipe your driver. Really retarded game that is