Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: 68Turbo on August 21, 2006, 06:22:25 PM
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These two planes are probably the two most evenly match planes in WWII. They fought in the Battle of Britain, and according to a documentary, they were so closely matched that the results depended mostly on the pilots. So, I'll just start a topic on here, and you guys can say which plane you think is better. I honestly would rather be the Spit, casue of its manueverability. Also a .303 ain't too powerful, but with 8 of them, and at the right calibration, you can really tear people up. Though the engine gets a little annoying sometimes. :aok
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Originally posted by 68Turbo
These two planes are probably the two most evenly match planes in WWII. They fought in the Battle of Britain, and according to a documentary, they were so closely matched that the results depended mostly on the pilots. So, I'll just start a topic on here, and you guys can say which plane you think is better. I honestly would rather be the Spit, casue of its manueverability. Also a .303 ain't too powerful, but with 8 of them, and at the right calibration, you can really tear people up. Though the engine gets a little annoying sometimes. :aok
I think flown well the 109E4 holds most cards on the Spit 1. I think the BoB scenario held that to be true. But my memory might be a bit mushy, I was flying the Hurri Mk1 at the time :aok
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Originally posted by zorstorer
I think flown well the 109E4 holds most cards on the Spit 1. I think the BoB scenario held that to be true. But my memory might be a bit mushy, I was flying the Hurri Mk1 at the time :aok
Spit I v the Emil is one of the best matches AH has to offer. Like Zorstorer, I'd rather be in the Spit because it flys better, but Emil clearly has a guns advantage.
Stop by the AvA next time we have BoB up.
- oldman
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Tell me next time BoB comes up in SEA of AvA. Im dying to play one. My two cents: Emil. I feel its made of paper though! Does anyone feel that way? I mean its VERY fragile. It may just be that i was being shot by more cannons than usual, but it felt as if it fell apart much easier than a K4 or a G14. I dont like the spit, because, well, the first fighter I used to fly was the P38, but not for long. Ever since then, its always been the 109, so I tend to try to climb the Spit a lot more... steeply than it can take. The 2 20mms add a potentialy lethal complication: ammo. Those of you changing from another 109, or basically any other high-ammo fighter will run your guns dry without ever suspecting it. My first flight, I ran dry without noticing, and then tried to attack a fighter. I was on his tail, pulled the trigger and... 'click' 'click' 'click'. Nothing. I was putting out literaly twice the ammount of lead in each shot as I am used to, and it was the same ammount of ammo. Keep an eye on things, and dont shoot unless you have a kill shot. Overall though, the Emil always wins over the spit in my mind! :D
So go kill some spits! :aok
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Tell me next time BoB comes up in SEA of AvA. Im dying to play one.
Well, Battle of Britain 2006 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=185102) just happens to be the next scenario. I don't know when AvA will have next BoB (or a rolling planeset).
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Originally posted by wasq
Well, Battle of Britain 2006 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=185102) just happens to be the next scenario. I don't know when AvA will have next BoB (or a rolling planeset).
sheiBe.... I have to get the 303rd operational by then?!? god help us...
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Well, in the BoB there were more than one 109E variants, and same with the Spitfire.
The Spit II holds the high alt cards on the early 109E and vice versa.
Spit outturns the 109E. (RL)
Speed is very similar, depending on variants. Our AH Spit is a tad faster.
Roll is very similar, depending on speed and pilot strength. (RL)
Climb is very similar too! Given the same engine performance the Spit will hold the cards AFAIK. (RL)
The 109E has much more firepower as long as the cannon shells last.
And...the 109 can bunt without losing the engine power, and also has a better dive.
That's about it.
And Reynolds, join the scenario. BoB is a blast!
(I remember me coming from the keyboard with shaky hands, lol)
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Whats bunt?
And yeah, i am dying to. I just need to get the 303BG/359BS into the provisional phase. We need 8 active pilots, who are good at what they do. Right now we have 3 :(
If I cannot field a full squadron, we may still attend, but not as a squad.
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You don't get to choose where you'll be put anyway.
In my first BoB, I applied for a Spitfire, had the last practice on a Hurricane, and ended up flying the scenario in a Ju88. It was a blast anyway.
Bunt is to slam the stick forward, the 109 pilots did that a lot with an angry Spitfire on their tail. With direct fuel injection, the 109 would dart downwards while a Spitfire attemting this would have the engine cut for a few seconds. To follow a bunt, you would need a halfroll and inverted +G dive do the engine wouldn't cut.
This was fixed after the Spitfire Mk II.
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Well, since we are a bomber squad, im hoping for 88s. Otherwise, I want a 109!
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Well, since we are a bomber squad, im hoping for 88s. Otherwise, I want a 109!
Usually there are enough bomber assignments so if you want to fly a bomber you probably can. Current rules (http://ahevents.org/site/images/stories/scenarios_images/200609_battleOfBritain/rules.htm) have 7 KG Gruppen with 5 pilots each flying Ju-88s.
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Originally posted by wasq
Well, Battle of Britain 2006 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=185102) just happens to be the next scenario. I don't know when AvA will have next BoB (or a rolling planeset).
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOT!!!
<---- Reserves a HMk1 spot! :D
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Hurry1, count me in!!!!!
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109E for me. People underestimate the problems with the negative G's in the Spitfires. It is a huge exploit for the 109 pilots who know what they are doing. You can stay ahead of the Spit's guns and out run them by exploiting this weakness even though the Spit is slightly faster. Also, the 109 seems to hold onto its speed better in a dive and longer after leveling. With the 109, you can kill quicker too. I love the BOB era for this matchup. It is a tremendous challenge for both sides.
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If the 109 Pilot is well aware, the Spit pilot will have to lock-on for quite some time before being able to deliver a killing burst.
The death of the 109 comes when it pushes it to too slow speed, - then a cunning Spit driver will know about the "bunt".
In a knivefight I rather prefer the Hurricane (more concentrated fire and better turn and roll), but again the 109 wil know that the Hurry is slower so....
BoB setup is THE finest. Jst need the Heinkel and early Stuka for a nice fill-up.
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109 will win (given equal pilots)
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Originally posted by Schatzi
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!!!
<---- Reserves a HMk1 spot! :D
Can I be your wingman schatzi? ;)
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I'm not so sure, bugs... It might be that the 109E pilots seem to know what they're doing more often. That might skew the results. If you look at the comparison charts, the spit1 outruns the 109, outclimbs it in several alt bands, out turns it, and outguns it (while the 20mm is powerful, the ballistics is bad, and once it's gone the 109E is nearly defenesless, while the spit1 has a steady punch throughout its ammo depletion).
The stats say the spit1 would win.
Comment on the spitII: The spitII was almost identical to the Ia, but had 20mm tested in positions in the wings. That's how I understood it. It was a stop-gap plane, not many made, and the SpitV was the real successor to the Ia
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Spi II from memory had an upgraded radio (big jump in rl), maybe better armour, and another engine with better high alt performance.
There was I belive, a cannon equipped squadron operating from Rochford (Hizookaz either 2 or 4, nor sure in 1940, hehehe) as well as 1 or 2 Hurricanes testing the cannons (1 Hurry scoring kills I belive and no jams), but the cannons had not yet the favour to be installed.
While our 109 might be an underdog (well, I NEVER SAW GOOD DATA ON THE EMIL), our SpitI is probably not the ultimate RL one from the BoB either. (There I have data), so theyr'e close as they should be and the pilot has a lot to say.
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Reynolds are you sure you want to step into the BofB scenario with a 109.
My squad will defend our homeland with upmost ferocity.
As for the spit-1 vs 109 E It is a close match up but a spit 1 in the right hands is more of match than a 109 in the right hands.
The wingman tactics take WAY more importance in the upcoming event. This will suit 109 flyers because they like to go up and down :)
However if it gets dragged into a swirling furball I know what plane i'd rather be in....
Bruv
The Few CO
~S~
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Bruv. I want an 88. The 303rd (even though we are HISTORICALLY american) will bomb your airfields until there isnt any DIRT for you to land on!!!! ZEIG HEIL!!!!
j/k:D
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Try bombing with A bullet in your head and spilt blood all over your cockpit !
:p
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Reynolds, Furbie flies for the RAF in scenarios.
Good luck :D
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Originally posted by Angus
Reynolds, Furbie flies for the RAF in scenarios.
Good luck :D
BUt he DOESNT fly a TBM in THIS one!!!
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Originally posted by Bruv119
Try bombing with A bullet in your head and spilt blood all over your cockpit !
:p
I have. Its a biatch. I missed all my targets :(
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Originally posted by Reynolds
BUt he DOESNT fly a TBM in THIS one!!!
No, it's going to be something faster and more agile :D
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Originally posted by Angus
No, it's going to be something faster and more agile :D
Im not worried about fast, If I lose to a spit I can always say "Spit Dweeb", But my image cannot afford another TBM death! lol. Anyway, on the subject of the Emil, I suck at it. It feels like paper mache. It falls apart way too easy. Anyone have any suggestions as to how to fly the Emil? (Yeah I fly 109s only, but that doesnt mean I CAN fly them!)
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Don't get hit and it won't fall apart :)
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Emil is a nice little plane. Just don't "learn" on it. Learn on the G14. Then go to the G2, then the F4, then MAYBE try the G6 (to get you ready for under-performing planes) *THEN* move on to the E4.
In the first week after the update, with all the new spitties I took an Emil into a furball and got 2 spit16s and a spit8 all in a row. I made it out alive with 20 rounds 20mm left!
You just have to be careful when flying it. You get overwhelmed and you die. Need to keep your escape in sight at all times, or have wingmen nearby.
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Emil is like slow rolling slow 109F with double firepower.
I actually hate it and much rather prefer teh HURRY2 :D
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Actually it's not double the firepower. A single Mg151/20 is much more effective than both MGFF that the Emil has, and it's got almost twice as much ammo as these two MGFF, to boot!
109F has a much better gun package (considering that it's also all nose-mounted)
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spit totally dominates the 109 in a duel. however, the axis pilots are usually more experienced, (the axis squads, the finns et al) so if you're in an historic fight, high up, multiple planes, it usually goes towards the axis because of their use of decent wingman tactics.
equal pilots however, espicially if one on one, my money would almost always be on the spit
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My whole problem is the escape. I can kill things no problem. I just cant escape when someone descides to kill me. Any good evasive maneuvers with the Emil? No rudder tricks though, my rudder control is broken.
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My whole problem is the escape. I can kill things no problem. I just cant escape when someone descides to kill me. Any good evasive maneuvers with the Emil? No rudder tricks though, my rudder control is broken.
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My whole problem is the escape. I can kill things no problem. I just cant escape when someone descides to kill me. Any good evasive maneuvers with the Emil? No rudder tricks though, my rudder control is broken.
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My most effective evasive moves involve using the rudder. Your flying with one flight surface tied behind your back. Not good against experienced pilots.
My most effective evasive moves involve using the rudder. Your flying with one flight surface tied behind your back. Not good against experienced pilots.
My most effective evasive moves involve using the rudder. Your flying with one flight surface tied behind your back. Not good against experienced pilots.
I think that answers all three. :D
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Originally posted by Krusty
I'm not so sure, bugs... It might be that the 109E pilots seem to know what they're doing more often. That might skew the results. If you look at the comparison charts, the spit1 outruns the 109, outclimbs it in several alt bands, out turns it, and outguns it (while the 20mm is powerful, the ballistics is bad, and once it's gone the 109E is nearly defenesless, while the spit1 has a steady punch throughout its ammo depletion).
The stats say the spit1 would win.
Comment on the spitII: The spitII was almost identical to the Ia, but had 20mm tested in positions in the wings. That's how I understood it. It was a stop-gap plane, not many made, and the SpitV was the real successor to the Ia
It was in the DA vs a guy that when we are both in spits, I am dead meat. We tried E vs Spit V and I totaly owned him in the 109. I'd think the Spit I would do worse due to its bad roll rate.
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Originally posted by TracerX
My most effective evasive moves involve using the rudder. Your flying with one flight surface tied behind your back. Not good against experienced pilots.
My most effective evasive moves involve using the rudder. Your flying with one flight surface tied behind your back. Not good against experienced pilots.
My most effective evasive moves involve using the rudder. Your flying with one flight surface tied behind your back. Not good against experienced pilots.
I think that answers all three. :D
Its not my choice. I have a Saitek X-45, and the whole throttle quadrant wiring failed, so nothing works. I had to replace that with a TopGun Fox II Pro joystick just to throttle and rudder. That stick itself doesnt work either. Only the throttle does. And since they no longer sell the X-45 I cannot replace it, and I HATE the twist rudder of the X-52.
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There are still plenty of X45s out there. Check Ebay.
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I know. Im looking at those, I just dont know how reliable they are.
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Well if they're used they'll say so. They're usually cheaper if they are used. Sometimes the seller is an actual online store, and if so chances are it's fresh from the box.
I think that you can trust a seller if they have a bajillion good feebacks. Well, trust them as far as you would trust any Ebay seller, I mean.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Comment on the spitII: The spitII was almost identical to the Ia, but had 20mm tested in positions in the wings. That's how I understood it. It was a stop-gap plane, not many made, and the SpitV was the real successor to the Ia
Spitfire:The History has 10 pages of Spit II serial numbers.
The Spit II could have either all mgs (IIa) or 2 20mm + 4 mgs (IIb).
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Hehe, wow! Must have 120 pages of SpitV serials!
Surely they coulda put that in a separate book? Doesn't make for a good read, I'd bet.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Hehe, wow! Must have 120 pages of SpitV serials!
Surely they coulda put that in a separate book? Doesn't make for a good read, I'd bet.
No just over 50 pages of Spit V serials. Since some 5000+ Spit Vs were produced that would give the Spit II some 1000 produced.
The book is some 600+ pages.
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WOW. They heave one of those for the B-17?
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
The book is some 600+ pages.
:huh :confused: :huh :O
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Always wanted that book ;)
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Either 920 or 921 Spitfire IIs were produced, depending on which authors you believe.
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So, many more than N1KI's :D
Back to a point about the radio. In RL that was of importance. The Mk II was supposedly a good leap ahead there (new aircraft supplied with upgraded sets),- anyway, point being that the Mk II could hold on to the controller much better.
Imagine AH featuring this, hehe. Crackling 109 radios, non-functional A6M radios etc....
The Mk II probably had the finest set in the world at it's prime. Pity about the carburettor though....
Any Spit expert here that knows more of this?
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Originally posted by zorstorer
Can I be your wingman schatzi? ;)
Ohhh, im not worthy being your wing. But id gladly fly besides one of the HMk1 experts! - if youll have me that is :).
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I thought you were Schatzie?
Anyway, gonna volunteer for the Hurries :D
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Okay, things are looking down for the 303rd coming in 88s. We dont have the pilots. But maybe we will take 109s... Are Focke Wulfs going to be used? (I am not going to use one, I just want to know if the 109 will be the only Deutsch-Fighter)
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Ohhh, im not worthy being your wing. But id gladly fly besides one of the HMk1 experts! - if youll have me that is :).
I'll have to climb back into the ride for a few weeks to knock the rust off. ;)
My current ride in the MA is a 190F8 or A8. The crazy part is having flown the mk1 for that long straight helped me quite a bit when moving over to the 190 8 series aircraft. Have no idea why as they don't do anything the same well. :D
I seem to recall that you beat me up pretty good when we could fight 1 on 1 up near A3 on some map, was a blast to try to find eachother on private text :)
Really looking forward to another BoB :D Would like to have one running alot but then we might burn out on it so it's ok that we don't get a BoB all the time ;)
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Okay, im dying, when does registration start??? I have to start planning my life to let me play it...
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Reynolds, the Fw190 was a year after the BoB.
So, the German fighters are the 190E and the 110C versus the HurryI and the SpitI.
Registration has probably started and I belive there is a link if you browse up the thread.
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Originally posted by Angus
Registration has probably started and I belive there is a link if you browse up the thread.
Actually it hasn't, yet. Keep an eye on the Scenario forum, they'll let us know when the registration starts.
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They want to get the CO teams in place before opening general pilots to join, I believe.
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Hey, can someone PM me when registration does start? I want to bring my patheticly tiny squad into it. Ignore what the server says, we only have 5 active pilots. We need at least 8. :cry
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Reynolds, the way it works is you just bring as many as you have. If the actual squad size is 8 and you only have 5, they will try to put all 5 in the same squad of plane-types, then add 3 more from whoever else signed up. You don't have to fill it all yourself.
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Yeah, I would just prefer to fill it myself. I have a strange obsession with proper numbers.
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Originally posted by zorstorer
I'll have to climb back into the ride for a few weeks to knock the rust off. ;)
My current ride in the MA is a 190F8 or A8. The crazy part is having flown the mk1 for that long straight helped me quite a bit when moving over to the 190 8 series aircraft. Have no idea why as they don't do anything the same well. :D
I seem to recall that you beat me up pretty good when we could fight 1 on 1 up near A3 on some map, was a blast to try to find eachother on private text :)
Really looking forward to another BoB :D Would like to have one running alot but then we might burn out on it so it's ok that we don't get a BoB all the time ;)
Hey, just holler if you catch me online. Im always willing to hop into a HMk1 for some 1 vs 1... Ill help that rust off allright! :)
PS: The HMK1 in Main Arena is a GREAT teacher of SA, gunnery, defensive/"Low E" fighting and patience. Its useful for ANY advanced fighting.
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Hey, just holler if you catch me online. Im always willing to hop into a HMk1 for some 1 vs 1... Ill help that rust off allright! :)
PS: The HMK1 in Main Arena is a GREAT teacher of SA, gunnery, defensive/"Low E" fighting and patience. Its useful for ANY advanced fighting.
I will have to do that :)
Plus about the mk1 helping, I fully agree with that, but the odd thing is it seems like any other plane I try after the hurri mk1 just seems so different as to be foreign to me. Though it might be that I liked the 190 8 series before/while I was flying the hurri mk1....dunno :D
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Yeah... once you hopped in the HMk1... youre done. It seems like the rest of the planset just cant hold up to it. I mean, yes, the "better rides" are faster, have better guns, get better K/D in the long run... but if s**t hits the fan... i STILL prefer to be im my trusty, old HMk1. Can you spell *addict*? :D
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Oh yeah? Well, the HMK1 cant out-slow the 109E, can it?!? Just a few minutes ago I was chasing a nikki who cut his engine so I would overshoot, and I STILL went slower than him!
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A well flown HurryI is a thorn in any 109E's side.
LOL, I remember jostling with Shane, and getting him mad at me
(Me in HurryI, he is 109E)
:D
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You know what I love about the 109? I can turn with a spit, climb with anything els('cept the other 109s), and if my shots connect right, i am theoretically shooting 40mm gun, because there are two 20s. I cant wait until BoB.
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Oh yeah? Well, the HMK1 cant out-slow the 109E, can it?!? Just a few minutes ago I was chasing a nikki who cut his engine so I would overshoot, and I STILL went slower than him!
The Hurri looses speed (E) a LOT easier then the 109. It also has the lower stall speed and a better stability at that speed.
If the LW pilot gets it slow with the Hurri, hes dead.
The 109 needs to outacellerate the Hurr. Play the energy game :).
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Originally posted by Reynolds
You know what I love about the 109? I can turn with a spit, climb with anything els('cept the other 109s), and if my shots connect right, i am theoretically shooting 40mm gun, because there are two 20s. I cant wait until BoB.
Nope.
With Similar power it cannot. Generally it cannot.
But the limb is very good. Watch out for Spits there though :D
In the RL of 1943 or so. when Spit VIII and IX were around, as well as boosted up, the 109's had trouble with the climb. In a banking climb they could not climb with Spits. (corkscrew climb was used as an evasive tactic)
I can test this with you in AH if you like.
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Now, the 109 that couldnt climb with the spits. This was just the Emil right? The newer models could correct? And in-game i only just discovered tonight that my stall limiter was ON!!! I dont know how it happened, but anyway, I have not had any trouble following aircraft through maneuvers these last few days. I stuck with the spits in their turns, and when they clmibed to evade, I releived them of a wing. I think the E is really the best, because you cannot rely on speed. You have to REALLY know your aircraft. But I have never been able to turn inside a spit XVI before, AND kill it without stalling. I think one thing that helps though, is I started flying in real life the same time I started with the Emil, so it may not be the plane, but my own real life inderstanding of the way things work. (On a side note, im really happy because I completed my first landing today without an instructor correcting me!) But, about your whole point in climbing, I dont mean i can stick with a prolonged climb. I KNOW I cant do THAT in an Emil. Thats why as soon as they climb, I oull into them and take my shot. I have only missed twice that I can think of in the last 3 days. (This doesnt mean only two shells missed, it means that while the trigger was depressed, vital parts were removed from said aircraft). And only one of the kill shots that hit didnt actually kill. That one was interesting, because I hit his wing (His screen said I hit his port wing root, my screen says I hit his starboard tip) he was a P-51D. I stuck with the climb, and I only died because he stalled first, and kicked out flaps one notch, I slammed the trigger and clipped him, and then I flew right into him. But, basically, a very shortened version of all of that, although the 109E Has a lot of severe disadvantages, but I feel it is the perfect aircraft to learn in, because there is no one thing in that plane you can rely on. You need to be able to manipulate everything simultaniously to acheive an objective. And once you are proficient in this, it is one lethal son-of-a-b**ch. You need to pick your targets wisely, and you normally only get one chance, but I think it is the most lethal plane in the game. Or, as Furball so elequently put it:..................... (http://www.freewebs.com/stepford_child/71_1154719849_reynolds.jpg)
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I love the hurri mk.I i prefer it over the spit mk.I. I had a blast in the last BoB scenario. It's a shame i've had to unsubscribe, BoB is always a favourite of mine.
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"Now, the 109 that couldnt climb with the spits. This was just the Emil right? The newer models could correct? "
Both yes and no. So close you could say it was a draw. 109 Zooms better Spit climbs better under bank. Spit with same power output climbs better.
109F vs Spit V, - not so sure. 109 probably holds the cards.
109 loses the cards at high altitude in 1942 (Spit IX with the Merlin 61 enters), and at low to medium when the Brits started charging the turbos and boosting up.
A Spit VIII with tropical outfit would in RL beat a 109G (mid-war common type) to 20k by some minute. (the 109G data I have is taken 1944).
So, in short, no special edge on climb.
in turn, 109 has no edge.
In the real life 109 pilots were advised to try to catch the spits in a climbchase and getting suckered into a turnfight.
The 109 had the edge on the speed, zoom, and dive, so B&Z was the better way.
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Got it.
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Hey Reynolds,- the registration for the BoB scenario is now open!!!
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Thanks, I was the second to register! Im trying to get the rest of my squad in as well.
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Arwww, looking forward for this. Was twice in the BoB, once RAF, once LW and it was a blast. Shaky hands and all!
And some fine pilots we have there.
Can't wait to sing my .303's into the LW platings :D
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Originally posted by Angus
Can't wait to sing my .303's into the LW platings :D
Go ahead and sing all you want, but Deutschland shall rule the day!!!
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History as well as the accurate scenarios give Germany the loss.
When I flew for the LW it was rather close I recall.
And watch out for Furbie's homing rounds :D
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I have installed a new radar-deflector in my Emil, causing furbies rounds to bounce back... into him!!! Muuuwhooowaaaahhhhaaaaahhhhaa aaahhhhaaaaaa!!!!!!!
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Ooooh.... Um.. sorry, you've been reassigned to *looks around* that plane just over there. This one, the one you added these goodies to, seems to have been reassigned to the axis XO, whomever that is...
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DAMNUT!!!! Time to by another deflector shield... these are getting expensive...
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Eeeeeeeeeeexellent