Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Fury on February 16, 2001, 12:39:00 PM
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U.S. military strike reported in southern Iraq
Pentagon sources say U.S. warplanes pounded communications and control sites today in southern Iraq.
CNN's Jane Arraf, reporting from Baghdad, said air raid warnings went off in the city prior to the explosions. There was no immediate comment from the Iraqi government.
Baghdad radio and the Iraqi television service switched from normal programming to military music, an indication some military event took place. A period of quiet followed the air raid warnings, explosions, and anti-aircraft fire
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From cnn.com, no more news yet since it's "Breaking News".
Fury
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With the right wingers back in da house, the only safe Iraqi is a fetus. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Let's keep on embargoing those medical supplies lads!
Everybody knows that penicilin is a lethal weapon in the right hands...
... and that the only good Iraqi is a dead Iraqi.
www.maic.org.uk (http://www.maic.org.uk)
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 02-16-2001).]
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BBC News: US and UK planes bomb Baghdad (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1174000/1174449.stm)
Blur,
In case you hadn't noticed, Bill Clinton was hardly nice to the Iraqis. They were bombed on dozens of occasions during his administration.
It seems that Saddam was testing the new administration. They fired a lot of missles in January. He did the same kind of crap in 1993 when Clinton was just entering office, and the result was the same. His people got bombed.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 02-16-2001).]
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All the UK and US is doing is fortifying his power base, while adding more supporters to his 'beleaguered' position.
The continuing embargo on medical supplies and other humanitarian aid is nothing short of a disgrace.
But hey, while there is a threat in the region we can sell containership loads of arms to Saudi Arabia and Kuwait. Cool!
I wonder how much money the US and UK economies made out of the Gulf War? Include the reconstruction projects with the arms sales, and I bet we've broken even several times over.
O what a loverly war!
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 02-16-2001).]
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Dont worry Im surew that all the targets Our goverment hit were
A:Retirement Homes
B:Baby formula plant (love that one)
C: a hospital for infants.
yup..Saddam shouldent have acted like an amazinhunk eh?
Here is saddam's websight BTW http://www.wildscooter.com/saddam/main.htm (http://www.wildscooter.com/saddam/main.htm)
Yea Dowding I was a lovely war, bout time the US had some target practice (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Oh and btw it WASNT just the US that did the shooting it was BRITISH planes aswell, so if yer gonna squeak about the US on this one you cant leave out the brits.
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 02-16-2001).]
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Dowding...
Ever hear of Oil for Food?
A program in which Iraq's people can obtain medical supplies and food thru allowed sales of Oil within enforced sanctions.
Oh....of course the fact that Saddam is abusing this program by deflecting funds meant for his people back to the military is entirely the USA's fault right?
Hard cold choices are made every day, some right, some wrong and some in the middle. What a luxury you enjoy...sitting on the sidelines, accountable for nothing other than your own selfishness, passing judgement on others.
Of course, you would be happier if Saddam had the capability to kill US pilots...if only things were as simple as you percieve them to be.
You must still be young (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ltr
Ice
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Whoever said anything about the US being the sole protagonist in this? Don't forget there are RAF pilots flying over Iraq right now.
The US stance is supported by the UK, and in fact all the other countries on the security council are against the continuing embargo on humanitarian aid.
There is no UN mandate for over-flying Iraq. Although I personally have no problem with the no-fly-zones being enforced.
But what about the Turkish planes that are being used to attack the Kurds in the North? Do we take action against them?
No, we welcome them into NATO.
BTW, unlike many who post here, I believe it is quite acceptable to criticise your own government.
Ever hear of Oil for Food?
But why hand a propaganda victory on a plate to Saddam? This embargo on humanitarian aid defeats its objective - to make his people rise against him.
What actually happens is that Saddam steals the money and blames the shortages on the US/UK - isolated, his people hate the outside world. We are storing up problems for the future.
...accountable for nothing other than your own selfishness...
I've donated to MAIC, so at least I don't just sit back and apathetically accept the situation. It's not much, but it's better than nothing.
Of course, you would be happier if Saddam had the capability to kill US pilots...
I'm very sorry. Did I miss something? Since when did medical supplies equate to SAMs and ZSUs? Please enlighten me. And why would I want Saddam to be able to attack RAF or US planes? Please explain that to me.
BTW, I'd rather be young and idealistic, than old, apathetic and defeated. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 02-16-2001).]
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Well, from my point of view, I think the only reason after this attack was that Bush wanted to show Saddam that he is as "machoman" as his father was.
And dont forget that if Saddam is where he is is because "someone" didnt press to see him removed from the power in Irak when the gulf war was over (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Originally posted by Dowding:
BTW, unlike many who post here, I believe it is quite acceptable to criticise your own government.
Not when you just voted it, Dowding (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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All were once young and idealistic.
BTW...there is a difference between foolishness and wisdom....someday you will understand that. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I've said enough...I will no longer respond to this thread as it will serve no purpose.
Oh...one last thing...the reason I spoke to you about US pilots being killed is that you criticized todays action, when it was directed at minimizing Saddams ability to hit what he aims at.
Enjoy your youth and this topic!
Bye Bye!
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Hey Lib apologists for brutal, murdering, thug dictators:
Besides a quick "stuff it", if American aircrews are in hostile territory(whatever you think of the mission), and Area/SAM Radar is "painting" them, placing these aircrews under the threat of SAM launch, then ALL relavent steps should be taken to ELIMINATE this threat. IMMEDIATELY.
When America(or Allied Coalition)deploys it's military personnel into harm's way, and EVERY STEP IS NOT TAKEN TO PROTECT these people, that is not only negligent and stupid, but criminal as well. Ever heard of Viet Nam???
That's so "Common Sense" no wonder it escapes the minds of the "linguine-for-a-backbone" Lib-Leftists.
What Iraq suffers is the COMPLETE and TOTAL responsibility of Saddam Hussein. And no one else.
Cabby
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=44th FS "VAMPIRES"=
"The Jungle Air Force"
Welcome To The Jungle!!!"
[This message has been edited by cabby (edited 02-16-2001).]
[This message has been edited by cabby (edited 02-17-2001).]
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"This embargo on humanitarian aid defeats its objective - to make his people rise against him."
Yeah, that worked great in Cuba.
"Embargos only starve the poor, the rich and those in power still eat plenty. The common folk dont rebel, they just starve and die"
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That would be cool if the USAF had an "old school day" where it would fly Chogs and p51's instead of jet fighters. Funny thing is we would still accomplish our mission!
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Quote:
" The common folk dont rebel, they just starve and die"
I suppose decadent, ignorant, cowardly populations do. Most don't starve for long. Read-up on some world history.
Cabby
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=44th FS "VAMPIRES"=
"The Jungle Air Force"
Welcome To The Jungle!!!"
[This message has been edited by cabby (edited 02-16-2001).]
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It is quite acceptable to criticize your government. It is also quite acceptable to be offended by someone who makes callous remarks about an issue that affects you personally.
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We don't mind cabby, Kieren. It's a well known fact that he's a political pyromaniac (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Iraq gets bombed weekly. It's just never on the news because its died out and no one really cares.
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===>Frosty
====>Exposure2k.com
=====>Frosty@exposure2k.com
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Countries do what they do for the reasons they do them for, not always right, and never right in the eyes of everyone, its just business in a way, that doesnt make it "right" per say but its just the way it is. Ya cant be nice to everyone all the time because because of those who percieve niceness for weakness, besides between the US and Briton and then saddam, its not a toss up as to who is the "bad guy" here.
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Worth noting is that the no fly zones are an American/Brit creation primarily and not a UN resolution. The Iraqis can quite rightly make an argument that it's in effect an illegal operation. I wouldn't say the argument holds water fully, but they have a (minor) point.
Despite what the US administration described it as; a routine strike, military analysts in both the US and in Europe say it wasn't. In such a limited zone, it is unlikely that there were 5 radar/c&c sites for one, according to them.
The timing they say is not incidental either; it seems Bush wants to send a strong message that hthe US is jovial to its friends (aka he is in Mexico when it happens, having nice talks) and harsh on its enemies (i.e the Iraqi strike).
I don't disagree with his decision to authorize the strike.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up space"
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The Iraqis can quite rightly make an argument that it's in effect an illegal operation
<<Airstrike.exe caused an invalid page fault in module kernel32.dll>>
thats what they get for using 98 on their fighters.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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LOL wobble!
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up space"
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Cabby... I wish Iraqi SAM crews to shoot down as much of that "peacekeepers" as possible.
Heh. You want them to sit down and wait until some psycho in DC will toss the dice and decide that it's their turn to die? Unfortunately that Arabs are very poor soldiers, without Soviet instructors they are even worse.
Just read an article about what happened in Lybia in 1986... The guy who wrote it was an istructor there.
If you feel offended by this letter - please remember that whenever USAF saw action it never ever cared about civilians. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Yugoslavia... After reading Jedi's posts I have a strong feeling that US pilots are conditioned to believe in something like "Amerika uber alles" and have no doubt that anyone living outside US is a third-rate bastard who must thank them for "bombing to stone age" and the best thing they can do for him is to end his bitter life as soon as possible. And if that little poor creatures in their bombsights and on targeting radars try to protect themself and shoot down some super-puper American Servicemen they get offended: Who gave that untermenschen the right to shoot at us or even illuminate our planes with targeting stations!?
Well, they call it "humanism".
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
[This message has been edited by Boroda (edited 02-17-2001).]
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Yeah, Ol' Saddam really cares about people and law doesnt he Boroda. Kind of like Russia.
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Cabby... I wish Iraqi SAM crews to shoot down as much of that "peacekeepers" as possible.
diddly You amazinhunk.
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Boroda:
Well, the Iraqi's are welcome to TRY and shoot-down American aircrews. And they are welcome to the sand-turned-to-melted-glass the survivors will find their sorry-ass countryside turned into.
Saddam Hussein isn't even worthy of discussion. Users of chemical warfare, and other atrocities, deserve no respect, no quarter, and no peace.
And if one attacks American(or British)military personnel, be prepared to have your bellybutton whupped. Bigtime.
No tears for Saddam the Megalomaniacal Moron here. Or for any of his stooges/flunkies that get in the way of well-aimed HAARMS.
War is Hell. Especially for the losers.
You know, America financed your war with the Germans, rebuilt Germany(while your rather brutal and thuggish Soviet Empire SUBJUGATED half of Germany for 40 years) and Japan, and assisted rebuilding most of Europe after WWII. To suggest that Americans are brutal occupiers, hegemonists, and "uber alles" is an insult. An ignorant one to be sure, but still an insult.
Sometimes i think the world WOULD have been better-off if the USA DID occupy and eliminate the local populations of Europe and replace them with Americans after WWII.
But nah, my better American nature takes hold, and i quit thinking like the jealous, decadent, backward denizens of the OLD WORLD.
Cabby
[This message has been edited by cabby (edited 02-17-2001).]
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Wobble that almost became my new fav sig line but the censors wouldn't allow it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Fury
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this whole situation is just screwed . as a citizen i dont like strikes whithout a damb good reason.
anyone mind tellin me what it was?
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"I suppose decadent, ignorant, cowardly populations do. Most don't starve for long. Read-up on some world history."
I suggest you take a longer look at your own history books. All the dictators/tyrants/kings/whatever that kept their population starved, submitted, in pain/whatever also kept a very strong military...at home. When that military was sent away or weakened, thats when the poor ignorant bastards rebelled..because thats when they can. And in most cases those rebellions failed. You only read of the succesful ones in the books.. history is written by the good guys right?
Saddam will stay in power as long as his army is with him. Why do you think he has an entire division as his own personal guard?
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Towd:
Iraq had built radar stations that would target UN planes patrolling the no fly zone. Once targeted they would be quite sure to have a SAM sent their way.
That is why they were destroyed. Comm centers in Baghdad were also knocked out because they coordinated the radars and the missile sites.
I think the UN should just blast all of Saddam's palaces to the ground, that might affect him in a way. Perhaps not. *shrug*
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But nah, my better American nature takes hold, and i quit thinking like the jealous, decadent, backward denizens of the OLD WORLD.
LOL!!!!!!
Coming from the continent which is one of largest drug producers in the world, has plenty of crackpot dictators, gives us Jerry Springer and has had a president who not only accept oral sex in his seat of power, but also has developed a pretty novel way of smoking a cigar.
I'd say you are doing pretty well in the decadence department, so drop the New World vs Old World superiority crap.
Cabby says:
To suggest that Americans are brutal occupiers, hegemonists, and "uber alles" is an insult.
Then he says:
Sometimes i think the world WOULD have been better-off if the USA DID occupy and eliminate the local populations of Europe and replace them with Americans after WWII.
So you admit to being a fascist, at least until your 'better' American instincts take over?
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Quote:
"So you admit to being a fascist, "
You sound like some Post-War Communist prosecutor.
You leftist-morons like calling people Fascists, don't you Dowding??? Gives you that sense of omniscient superiority over the ignorant masses that you insecure Libs so desperately need??
That's fine, though. I get to call you a leftist-moron in response.
Cabby
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First off, you're talking about a Moslem country here, lifting the embargo will not make them love us, we're "The Great Satan", remember?
Second, seeing as a few of you have no idea how fast one ages when the RWR (Radar Warning Receiver) goes off, Don't judge a stance that the military approves of entirely, If you point a weapon at me, you'd better understand that I will kill you if you do not kill me.
On top of that, if the world hadn't turned into this half-assed political PC Bs sideshow, we wouldn't have a no-fly zone, Saddam would not be leading Iraq.
When we stop targeting the guys making the descisions, the chance of achieving more than a stalemate go out the window.
To prove that point, I notice that everyone's favorite Libyan Loon has been pretty quiet since we blew up his house.
And to the Russian guy, hey go deal with the problems you have without bombing towns into rubble, then you can talk.
And finally, Dowding, the largest drug producer? Largest consumer perhaps, but I theenk CooLum-bia is the producer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
To close, shoot at us, we shoot back, anyone who cannot understand that rationale needs to be removed from the gene pool as an unhealthy mutation that would not survive on its own anyway.
Feel free to disagree, we've been keeping the world FREE to disagree for years.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Originally posted by pzvg:
Feel free to disagree, we've been keeping the world FREE to disagree for years.
LOL!...tell that to Chile people, to Argentina people, to SPANISH PEOPLE (Franco, ooooh, yea), To Uruguay people, To nicaragua people, to Salvador people...may I follow?
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Cabby, you're the guy suggesting a 'Final Solution' for Europe - a typically fascist approach to any problem. Or perhaps the more modern term would be 'ethnic cleansing'.
I say what I see Cabby - if you don't want to be called a fascist, don't act like one.
I see the anger management therapy is coming along nicely! You'll be constructing a decent argument next - keep up the good work, comrade!
pzvg - I was refering to the 'New World' i.e. the American continent. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 02-18-2001).]
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I say what I see Cabby
But yet you dont live in the US dont personally many americans, yet you dont hesitate to bash us in every way. You sure dont see America, yet its a pile of crap to you, maby thats why, maby you have bad eyes, I dunno i gave up trying to see your line thinking(or lack there of) a long time ago.
See doublestandard in the dictionary.
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Come on then Wobbly, show me where I have solely 'bashed' Americans in this thread?
BTW, I think we understand your line of thinking all too well. A case in point is the whole 'gooks' farce.
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"And finally, Dowding, the largest drug producer? Largest consumer perhaps, but I theenk CooLum-bia is the producer"
Hehe, beat me to it. US is the largest consumer.
I am Colombian, we do produce a lot of the stuff, but the "largest" thing that is done in Colombia is DELIVERY. We have access to the Pacific and the Atlantic and on the tip of South America.. all drugs flow upwards and then get distributed.
Wish UN troops would just roll over there for a year or two, but we got a very stubborn and corrupt government. =P
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Hey, Ram, how about that Spanish Foreign Policy, eh? There's a truly enlightened bunch!
Just look how well they treated the Incas and Aztecs!
Hernando Cortes! What a great humanitarian!
..and that Franciso Pizzaro! What an honorable Spaniard! I bet Atahualpa was sure glad he paid the ransom.
Oh..wait..that was a long time ago, so everyone has forgotten it. Now we're all free to bash US foreign policy mistakes.
I forget though..have any US foreign policy mistakes resulted in the destruction of entire civilizations like the Aztecs and the Incas? Your history books probably have more on this.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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LOL!
Where have you read that I'm proud of my nation's actions between XV-XIX centuries?.
I dont stop seeing in this forums mention to the "great work for freedom" that the US has done last 90 years. Difference=I dont brag about my nation's actions on America in the past, but tons of americans brag about their nation's "work towards world freedom".
And I laugh a lot...mostly I laugh because I'd rather take it as a joke, otherwise I would feel tempted to answer as it should be done (I bet that many Chileans, Argentinians,Salvatorians, Nicaraguans, and even lots of spanish people who lived the hell that Franco's fascism was, wont hold their breath so much as I do).
BTW once again you only know to stand by your opinions by attacking others. Its a very good proof that you know that what I say is true (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-18-2001).]
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When they total up the "all time" scores on which nations killed the most people for no good reason at all, I'll wager Spain leads the US. By an INCREDIBLY HUGE margin. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Unless you consider plundering a nation outright for their gold and silver, enslaving them to work in the mines, slaughtering them because they are the wrong religion all "good reasons" of course.
Not to mention the Inquisition against your own people.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
You who are so pure now, so righteous forget your own history.
We didn't try to plunder Chile, Argentina, El Salvador or Nicauragua. We didn't try to enslave their people to work in the fields and mines.
The Spanish record in South America stands unchallenged. No one else EVER came close to such inhumanity there; no one else ever will.
Yes, we supported some bad governments. Those were mistakes as we can easily see in hindsight. Our intent was certainly not to injure the general populace of those nations.
We DID NOT and DO NOT conquer entire nations and enslave them.
We leave that to other more "civilised" societies.
Like yours.
Great choice you had there in the Spanish Civil War, eh? Facism or Socialism. Neither one of them work worth a d*mn but you guys went at it hammer and tongs to force one or the other on your people, didn't you?
Whoever had won, the Spanish people would have lost.
Now that IS something to cry over.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-18-2001).]
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"We didn't try to plunder Chile, Argentina, El Salvador or Nicauragua. We didn't try to enslave their people to work in the fields and mines."
Umm.. no, you outright STEAL 25% of an independent country's landmass to suit your own needs and threaten with military action if that nation tries to stop you. Then, to not appear as aggressors in the international community you "help" the chunk of land to become a separate nation, a true democraCIA. Following that, you make a nice canal which you literally control for the next century at a huge profit.
*hint: Panama*
"I forget though..have any US foreign policy mistakes resulted in the destruction of entire civilizations like the Aztecs and the Incas? Your history books probably have more on this"
Forgot your own history books? I dont remember all the native american tribes kindly moving aside or dying so the west could be won.While I really hate to say this, yes you have and you currently ARE Toad, to a certain degree. Ive had the pleasure of visiting Japan, its become a US-Wannabe. Its really sad, really, really sad.And the Japanese seem to actually want that. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) I hope history proves me wrong. The grandparents of the family I stayed with for 3 months would tell me this, their impressions and what had been lost. It sometimes made me weep.
Spain's crimes were commited in a time when the world was much different, only today are they considered "crimes". On those days it was "evangelization" and empire expansion. all of them accepted, supported and expected of any nation by the Holy Roman Church (which was THE superpower in those times).Its nice to have god on your side eh?
So its.. umm.. more than a thousand years of Spanish civilization vs you meager.. how many is it? I'd say you did your best to catch up. Id say your civiliationwipeout/time ratio is about to par with the spaniards. Not bad.
Its great to see someone stomp and point and ridicule over another nation's history. Shows how much you really know.
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Tac, I see in your info box you live in Orlando? I'm usually not this blunt, but if this country is so terrible, go the hell home.
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Raub, just my opinion here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). Don't take it too seriously.
I think it is important to not have a "like it or leave it" approach ot ones nation, or anything else. Being able to appreciate the good sides and recognize the bad ones is a good sign of objectivity.
It also makes it much easier to defend your position (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). There are a good deal of things that suck here in denmark for instance, and i ain't afraid of telling anyone who wants to listen about it. Doesn't mean I think that overall, it's a great place to live.
US record in south america is somewhat...well, let's just say tainted by the need to contain communism and protect national interests.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"All your base/are belong to us"
http://www.thefever.com/AYB2.swf
Keep up the momentum!
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Uh Tac you are saying it was OK for the Inquisition to happen caues it happened a long time ago and the "Superpower" at that time said it was OK but when the US (which wasn't fully created yet)started moving out Indians it's not OK?
Look I'm not proud of everything the US has done and I'm damn sure not proud of any leader we've had but that doesn't mean I'm not glad I live here and that I wouldn't defend our rights. (which I have..USAF)
The one thing that always gets me is how all these foreiners will come to the US for an education or to start a business or hell even to get away from their own crappy country and start squeaking about how the US is evil or how unfair it is but they won't leave. They sneak over our borders and then complain because they have no rights or how we don't speak their language.
No country is perfect nor will they ever be.
I have to agree with Raub on this one. If you don't like the US then get the hell out!
I've got better things to do with my life than listening to foreiners telling me how I should live in my own country.
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Following that, you make a nice canal which you literally control for the next century at a huge profit.
*hint: Panama*
You didn't really say this did you Tac? Do you really know anything about the Panama Canal? I strongly suggest you read up on it. Especially who started building it. Then I encourage you to find out who currently controls it.
AKDejaVu
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TheWobble, thank you! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
JFYI: Any target that crosses the SAM hit-range is supposed to do it with only goal: to destroy the target-illuminating station. It's a rule of survival. Now - understnd that Anti-Aircraft Defence always PROTECTS, while "UN" attack planes are there to destroy.
People die there so that you are happy watching it in the TV news.
As for bomning towns to ashes - well, do you support Chechens? Do you applaude to that brave Liberation Fighters blowing up apartment houses in my city? Do you know how does it feel to be taken out of bed at 3 AM because of a civil defence alert and stay in the street why Militia searches the house for a bomb? It's a war for survival, while US bombs Iraq to satisfy TV watchers.
Dowding, very well said. I just wonder what's their next target: Pridnestrovie? Belorussia?
Yeah, c'mon, eliminate all the Slavs and populate their land with proud Arians. I definetly heard this before...
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Support them? I don't support anyone, I suggest you tend to your own knitting.
Why are they bombing you Btw, because they want out and you won't allow it? Seems to me we had the same problem once.
Question? is it Air-Defense to engage aircraft that are not attacking you? or is it an "offensive use of anti-air assests" as I was taught so many years ago?
RAM, stay out of a burning house, or did the Basques stop militating for independence?
Every nation on the earth got there with blood on it's hands, hell, maybe you can deal with the world's issues without violence, So far even the bloody UN needs "peace-keeping" forces, (read troops)
Let's get real people, I don't really support some of my nation's policies, but when you come right down to it, I'm a fairly basic guy, shoot at our troops, I hope like hell they shoot back, and I'll impeach the SOB who won't let them.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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"Uh Tac you are saying it was OK for the Inquisition to happen caues it happened a long time ago and the "Superpower" at that time said it was OK but when the US (which wasn't fully created yet)started moving out Indians it's not OK?"
No, im saying that TOAD is judging events from centuries ago with PRESENT standards. The removal of the native american indians was a good thing in those times.. today, its seen in a much different light. I find his attitude of shoving those past events into anyones face in that manner quite sickening.
"No country is perfect nor will they ever be"
Thats exactly the way I see it.
"If you don't like the US then get the hell out"
My, you gringos do love to feel offended dont you? Raub seems pissed at me for stuff on the other thread, a thread which he doesnt seem to read carefully, preffering to believe im talking exclusively about the US or himself. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Please tell me where ive said the US is evil, or where Ive told you how it is you should live in your own country.
Deja:
"Especially who started building it. Then I encourage you to find out who currently controls it"
You leaped from the start to today. Its what happened in between.
Are you denying that the US didnt seize Panama from another nation and proceeded to set up a government so they could build and benefit from the canal? Perhaps you should read some more. And while you do, please read between the lines, what is shown in your library of congress says one story, what is on the National Library on my country says another story, what is on the Panama Historical Records says something else. The facts are presented with severely different points of view and bias. Look up the History Channel as well.
"In 1903, Panamanian businessmen, chafing against control by the strife-ridden central government of Colombia, and with U.S. naval support, declared independence. A treaty allowing the United States to build and operate a canal across the isthmus was hurriedly negotiated. The treaty and subsequent arrangements reduced Panama to the status of a protectorate, provided a windfall for investors in the rights of the earlier canal company, and incurred the enmity of Colombia. But the canal, completed in 1914 with West Indian labor, demonstrated U.S. engineering prowess and was strategically and commercially vital. Control of its sea approaches was a major reason for U.S. military occupations, for varying periods over the next two decades, of Nicaragua, the Dominican Republic, Cuba, and Haiti. "
http://www.historychannel.com/perl/print_book.pl?ID=35331 (http://www.historychannel.com/perl/print_book.pl?ID=35331)
It was a brilliant move from the US.
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Fortunately for us Boroda, most Americans I've come across are decent people.
But occasionally you come across people who are casually racist (TheWobble) or rabidly right-wing (Cabby).
We all have people like this in our countries - they don't represent the great majority and hopefully never will.
BTW Boroda, I don't agree with your comment regarding the SAM sites - I don't want to see US/UK pilots shot down or killed. But I do want to see a greater discussion regarding our involvement in Iraq.
Why are they bombing you Btw, because they want out and you won't allow it? Seems to me we had the same problem once.
And still do? The Oklahoma bombing, for example. The supporters of those lunatics want nothing more than to either retake America from the commies/foreigners/cupcakes or set up their own state.
All our countries have similar problems - just look at the mess that is NI.
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Boroda spewed:" It's a war for survival, while US bombs Iraq to satisfy TV watchers."
Do you really believe this?
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Originally posted by Tac:
So its.. umm.. more than a thousand years of Spanish civilization vs you meager.. how many is it? I'd say you did your best to catch up. Id say your civiliationwipeout/time ratio is about to par with the spaniards. Not bad.
[/B]
Tac, how wonderful of you to bring up the Indian tribes in North America! Of course you know they were incorrectly called Indians by that famous explorer <working for none other than the Spanish Crown> Christopher Columbus.
His discoveries led to a procession of Spanish Conquistadors <doesn't that mean "Conquerors" in Spanish? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)> to the "New World".
...and so began the interaction of "Europeans" with the "Native Americans". How were they treated?
You've discussed the ending. After the US became a nation, the remnants of the "natives" were pushed further and further West over the next 100 years and their lands taken. Finally, they were left with the unwanted grounds and their numbers greatly diminished. Primarily by disease, not by combat. There have probably been far more "Indians" killed on Hollywood film than were ever killed by settler or Army bullets. Certainly not the proudest moment in a young nations history in any case.
But for a moment lets re-examine the real catastrophe that befell the "American Indian".
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/970818/18indi.htm (http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/970818/18indi.htm)
How many people were here before Columbus?
"One of the few certainties: The Indian populations of North and South America suffered a catastrophic collapse after 1492.
Even if the absolute total is forever unknowable, there are other numbers that tell a haunting tale. In the 1960s, a Berkeley geographer, Carl Sauer, cited evidence of a 1496 census that Columbus's brother Bartholomew ordered for tax purposes on Hispaniola (now Haiti and the Dominican Republic). The Spanish counted 1.1 million Indians. Since that sum covered only Hispaniola's Spanish-controlled half and excluded children, Sauer concluded that 3 million Indians once inhabited the island. But a generation after 1492, a Spanish resident reported Hispaniola's Indian population had shrunk below 11,000.
The island's collapse was only a preview. By 1650, records suggest that only 6 million Indians remained in all of North America, South America, and the Caribbean. Subtract 6 million from even a conservative estimate of the 1492 population--like Denevan's consensus count of 54 million--and one dreadful conclusion is inescapable: The 150 years after Columbus's arrival brought a toll on human life in this hemisphere comparable to all of the world's losses in World War II.
So, Tac, in the 150 years AFTER Spain "civilized" the "New World" a conservative estimate is that 89% of the "Native Americans" had been eliminated.
In that period, from 1492 until 1650, what major European nations were active in the "new world"?
Spain, obviously. Portugal, most certainly. However, the Portuguese posed a threat to the Spanish drive for New World wealth which even the Treaty of Tordesillas <1494> could not assuage. So the "simple solution" for the Spanish was to to eliminate the threat of Portuguese expansion by annexing Portugal. Although Spain mortgaged Venezuela to a German banking house for a brief period (1528-1547), she was then successful in keeping most interlopers out of her holdings from Mexico to Chile for the remainder of the sixteenth century.
The French really didn’t get rolling in North America until after 1650; particularly in what would be the later US. The same can essentially be said for the English, with their first Colony, Virginia, founded in 1606.
No, it is the Spanish who made the first and most devastating contact with the "Indians" of the "New World". By the most conservative estimates, they initiated and oversaw the decimation of perhaps 54 million people, with the result that by the time the English and French arrived to stay there were perhaps 6 million "natives" left in all of North and South America.
How did they manage that? Why let’s check the story of that famous Spanish explorer Hernando De Soto around 1539!
http://www.interlog.com/~gilgames/collapse.htm (http://www.interlog.com/~gilgames/collapse.htm)
"He set sail from Havana Harbour on Sunday, May 18th, 1539.
For the next 4 years, De Soto butchered his way up the Mississippi Valley. He took armoured trained-to-kill war-dogs, horses and even cannon. He traveled on well-used roads and paths and enslaved the locals, forcing them to act as guides and translators. De Soto was disappointed because the natives didn't have great collections of (useless) gold or European luxuries, but seemed overly concerned with real wealth, such as food, necessities and art.
He burnt and outright destroyed many of the great cultural centres in the American mid-west. The historical documents from the period are extensive and excellent. His chroniclers painted a portrait of a collection of wandering butchers and a savage mercenary army, merciless, greedy, remorseless, bent on pillage and plunder.
Modern European-colonist textbooks call him an "explorer", but he was really nothing of the kind. Little more than a pirate and in fact many times worse, De Soto's actions temporarily united nations of the region in an active hatred of the "Christians". However, over the course of several years he managed to thoroughly destabilize regional political relations and diplomatic systems. He died on the Mississippi at a town called Anilco. Only a few of his soldiers made their way back to Spanish-occupied Mexico, by fleeing downriver and attempting a desperate overland journey.
Hernando de Soto's barbarians laid waste an entire civilization.
Holocaust: The Great Collapse
The holocaust that began with De Soto's arrival didn't stop when he died on the shores of the Mississippi River. As the area was highly developed, people travelled, possibly fleeing the devastation, and brought European diseases with them. Some nations seem to have been utterly obliterated by plagues.
It's hard to imagine the horror of the scene: over half a continent, once busy roads and towns now empty and filled with bodies. Buildings falling into disrepair. Graves and bodies littering the landscape. Disease raging back and forth, periodically devastating entire societies.
Religious figures, leaders, farmers, merchants, craftspeople-- death was indiscriminate, and the social effects terrible. Harvests went uncollected.
The ensuing famine and lack of resources bred social conflict. Long-established trading systems fell apart. As the political order collapsed and devoured itself, internecine wars and raids added to the disaster. The civilizations of the American mid-west were torn apart from outside and within, in a cycle of death, disease, famine, poverty, war, political instability and economic catastrophe. This spiral of destruction left little in its wake.
Obliteration
There had been countless cities, towns and villages from Florida to Virginia and Illinois, built of wood and earth. From Florida to Mississippi and Texas, devastation consumed everything.
Qualla, Guasili, Toqua, Casqui, Quizquiz, Pacaha, Mabila, Cayas, Utiangue, Taliepacana, Mozulixa, Tula, Guachoya, Quigualtam, Anilco, Naugatex, Guasco, Aminoya and thousands of other centres became archaeological curiosities.
When the French ventured down the Mississippi Valley only sixty years later, they found a few tiny villages. All around them they saw the remains of some great culture they couldn't identify. The obliteration seemed complete. Vast, now wild cornfields and orchards stretched as far as the French adventurers could see. Forest was slowly reclaiming what had once been a fertile, accomplished civilization.
Soon, there was little left of these great nations but overgrown earthen mounds and ruins, rotting remains of cities, graves for archaeologists to find and a few struggling bands of survivors. Showing the resilience and power of life and the natural world, forest reclaimed the land almost immediately. When the Dutch, French and English arrived on the scene a hundred years later, they had no idea of the historical extent of the slowly recovering native civilizations."
By 1700 the white population far outnumbered that of the North American Indian. As any history book will show, it was the Spanish that were active here prior to that date.
After the US became a nation the Indians were indeed pushed even farther. But the irreversible damage had already been done by the Spanish.
The US has destroyed Japan? You are really reaching with that one Tac. They’ve been the masters of their own destiny. They made and are making their choices. Choices have consequences. Their culture has changed and continues to change. No one is forcing them to become more like the US. The road they follow is of their own choosing.
In your own words "Japan, its become a US-Wannabe… And the Japanese seem to actually want that.". What are you going to do? Send some Columbian troops in and MAKE them be like old feudal Japan? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Make them be like YOU want them to be. Go for it, dude! By any chance do you also have the blood of Spanish Conquistadors flowing in your veins? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Originally posted by Tac:
So its.. umm.. more than a thousand years of Spanish civilization vs you meager.. how many is it? I'd say you did your best to catch up. Id say your civiliationwipeout/time ratio is about to par with the spaniards. Not bad.
So tell me Tac. What civilizations has the US "wiped out" that can even begin to compare with the 48 MILLION "New World Indians" that Spain eradicated?
Go ahead and list the civilizations and populations that the US has eliminated/subjugated by force of arms.
Then on the other side of the balance ledger, list the populations and places that the US has helped (or tried to help) liberate by force of arms.
Look at the oppression in Chile, Argentina, El Salvador or Nicauragua that Ram refers to in the last 40 years or so. It wasn’t American troops doing the shooting there. We indeed may have supported a side that was guilty of human rights violations. Yet whenever the OTHER side took power human rights violations were just as prevalent if not more so. Nonetheless, it was brother against brother.
We’re not perfect by a long shot. Do any of you think the world would truly be a better place if the US had maintained a strict isolationist policy throughout the 20th Century?
Think it over, because you folks are driving us back to it.
I, for one, appreciate your efforts! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Good GRIEF Toad!! That took 7 rolls of the scroll thingy on my MOUSE!!
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Swamp, history is inconvenient at times. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Toad:
Swamp, history is inconvenient at times. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
ROTFLOL Toad! I'll hire you as an attourney if I ever need one!
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Mm, Toad, i too pointed out the history of Europe.
I recognize Europe's past as a Bad Thing(tm) seen from the eyes of a modern westerner with all kinds of stupid PC morals.
History, however, must be seen in the context of the time as well. Cannot just judge them based on our current moral standpoint.
Raub said "like it or leave it". Can agree with him; either stay and shut up, or leave to somewhere that's more your thing. on the other hand, it is important to recognize the good AND the bad.
And, going back to what I said about Europe's past, just like Europe, the US have some very shady things in their closet. Whereas Europe after WWII largely stayed out of colonianism and generally messing around, the US, in *modern time*, has done some deeds that, even if judged by contemporary morals, is objectionable. South American being a prime example.
Recognizing and accepting the bad stuff also takes out the majority of any whiners thrust. It's in the past, we can't change it. Yep, that's true, and how does that pertain to the current situation?
Hope this makes sense. I'm still relatively young (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"All your base/are belong to us"
http://www.thefever.com/AYB2.swf
Keep up the momentum!
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Santa - we are just ignorant kids compared to these wise old men. Perhaps we should leave the whole thing up to them, until we reach the same level of disillusionment? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Gee whiz dad... err sorry...Toad for being so disrespectful.
I don't know how we Europeans ever survived the last 2000 years of modern history without you yanks there to help us out!!!
Please don't leave us, we just haven't a clue how to get on with life - how could you live with the guilt of abandoning us!!?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Fact:
The British Empire was the biggest empire the Earth has ever seen.
Fact:
It lasted 300+ years and encompassed half the globe, including a fair amount of North America.
Fact:
Until WW2 we had the largest Navy in the world.
Fact:
We institutionalised the first parliament in the world.
Fact:
We abolished slavery 70 years before the States did.
Not bad for a tiny island.
We did all this without the US. How ever did we manage it? Who wrote this history crap anyway?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<PS> That right-wing enough for ya?
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 02-19-2001).]
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Hey Dowding,
Who bailed out the UK during WWII? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Don'tcha love it when people aren't gracious? Without the US stepping in (as forced as we were) and shipping so many resources to the Brits, you would be under the Nazi regime.
(well, that's a pretty stiff comment to make but there is little doubt Britain would have fell or relented to the Germans without the USA.)
All this endless bickering...
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You Guys are all FARKED UP!!
Ping the disgusted
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Ok, I've got a question about the original topic here. So... they paint our (American, British, etc, I mean) planes on radar - does that mean that they're going to shoot? Are the Arab missile crews really that stupid? They know what'll happen to them if they open fire. It's happened many times before, they'd be foolish to think otherwise.
Furthermore, G. Dubya organised the strike, eh? So what's this business of shooting back? Did the pilot realize he was was being painted, and so request an emergency channel to the president? "Uh, hi, Mr. President? This is Captain John Doe, F-16 pilot... look, um, there's an Iraqi radar lighting me up. Based on the experience gained from your illustrious service in the Texas Air National Guard, what do you recommend?"
"Eh? Uh, bomb the crap out of them Captain. If anyone asks, I gave you permission."
"Gee, thanks mister President!"
*BOOM*
Puh-lease. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Clearly, there's more to it than a random strike on an active radar here.
Oh, and one more thing... could someone explain how being leftist makes someone stupid? Any more so than being a right-winger? It seems to me that the danger is from those who are so blinded by their infinite wisdom and the knowledge that they are right and everyone else needs to be corrected. Because God forbid that a loaded gun not be the best solution to whatever problem you happen to be facing. Ick.
I don't base my opinion of someone's intelligence on their political and personal perspective. Look deeper.
Oh, and cabby...? I'm younger than you are. Tell me now, am I stupid, or just wrong? Because being a liberal, I am clearly in no position to make any any decision, judgement, or take any point of view on anything. Eh?
[This message has been edited by ispar (edited 02-19-2001).]
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I'll direct an answer to Ispar, since too many others want to hold the moral high ground (you can have it, I'd rather hold the military crest) If someone locks you up? does it mean they're going to launch? Dunno, if I point a gun at your head does it mean I'm going to shoot? and from the muzzle-end perspective, do you care about morality? or the weapon pointed at you?
All semantics aside, it is accepted in every military in the world, that switching the radar from "search" to "track" ie; "locking up" IS an act of aggression.
The US decided to go for a measured response aimed at reducing the overall ADA threat, The UK concurred with that, and obviously since the UN did not release a policy statement condemning the action, (and they would have known in advance) They must have agreed with it too.
So what we do have is a few folks of an opinion that it wasn't a very nice thing to do, which brought others to disagree with them, which brought the others who feed on this stuff, and it's slowly rolling down hill from there.
That about cover it?
I don't give a rat's bellybutton who did what when, personally, all I care about history in this context is that some friends and relatives of mine who are still on active duty do not become history, 'nuff said from me.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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England certainly has a long and famous history.
It's amazing you ever needed anyone's help at all, isn't it? Perhaps you didn't really need ours at all. Maybe we'll see next time. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(Oh, yeah..how long after you guys ESTABLISHED slavery here did you ban it in the home islands? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
http://innercity.org/holt/slavechron.html (http://innercity.org/holt/slavechron.html)
1619
The other crucial event that would play a role in the development of America was the arrival of Africans to Jamestown. A Dutch slave trader exchanged his cargo of Africans for food in 1619...
Although the number of African American slaves grew slowly at first, by the 1680s they had become essential to the economy of Virginia. During the 17th and 18th centuries, African American slaves lived in all of England’s North American colonies. Before Great Britain prohibited its subjects from participating in the slave trade, between 600,000 and 650,000 Africans had been forcibly transported to North America.
1672
English merchants form the Royal Company to exploit the African slave trade. (The People's Chronology 1995, 1996 by James Trager from MS Bookshelf)...
Founded in 1672, the Royal African Company was granted a similar monopoly in the slave trade. Between 1680 and 1686, the Company transported an average of 5,000 slaves a year. Between 1680 and 1688, it sponsored 249 voyages to Africa.
Still, rival English merchants were not amused. In 1698, Parliament yielded to their demands and opened the slave trade to all. With the end of the monopoly, the number of slaves transported on English ships would increase dramatically -- to an average of over 20,000 a year. By the end of the 17th century, England led the world in the trafficking of slaves."
Of course, "In England, a humanitarian milestone was reached in 1772 when the courts decided in the famous Somerset Case that a slave became free as soon as he set foot on English soil. Slavery was abolished within England, but it was still permissible within the colonies, as was the slave trade itself.
Oh..what happened here Dowding? Didn't the colonies belong to England at this time?
It also took a while to get England out of the Slave Trade didn't it?
"In 1807, Parliament finally passed a bill that made it illegal for any English vessel to take part in the slave trade.
Incidentally, that same year the United States Congress enacted a law prohibiting the importation of slaves."
Yeah, Dowding...slavery was certainly a US problem alone, wasn't it? You English can be so proud you had nothing to do with our slavery problems here...and that you abolished it in your own country (but not your colonies) so relatively early. While your merchants continued to ply the Slave Trade.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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"In your own words "Japan, its become a US-Wannabe… And the Japanese seem to actually want that.".
That is, if you had read my post more carefully, my opinion based on what I experienced and what I discussed with people that lived before war and have seen all the changes. Matter of fact, I was VERY surprised that 90 year olds spoke good english. Cultural assimilation cant happen without a willing population, so yes, they are masters of their own destiny. It just saddens me a lot and hope it doesnt happen (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
"What are you going to do? Send some Columbian troops in and MAKE them be like old feudal Japan? Make them be like YOU want them to be. Go for it, dude! By any chance do you also have the blood of Spanish Conquistadors flowing in your veins?"
I may have spanish blood, we're all a mix down there. BTW, we dont need to send troops, we just lower the dope price and make a great social problem and later on, overthrow their government and keep them under our reign. We're testing this theory on the USA right now, so far so good.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
BTW, its Colombia, not Columbia. At least have the decency of getting the name right ignorant gringo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
"Think it over, because you folks are driving us back to it. "
Your own greed wont let you.
"What civilizations has the US "wiped out" that can even begin to compare with the 48 MILLION "New World Indians" that Spain eradicated"
You mean you have to wipe out more than one to get the prize?
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In response to ispar's question, No, painting an A/C does not mean they are going to shoot. It does howerver mean they have the means and ability to shoot. The Iraqi's know that painting allied A/C is interpreted as an act of aggresion and will be dealt with accordingly. The Iraqi's KNOW they will be fired upon when they paint allied A/C. It's simple really, Saddam will not follow the rules as stated by the international community IN RESPONSE to his uncalled for invasion of Kuwait in 1990. If and when he does decide to follow the rules, his people will stop dieing..at least at the hands of NATO and the U.N. Yes, this is a very hardcore right-wing way of looking at it, but the alternative could quite possibly be the widespread use of chemical and biological agents within the MiddleEast (SW Asia) or even Nuclear weapons...just so Saddam can establish himself as Head Honcho.
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I did read your post pretty carefully.
Perhaps I misunderstood this exchange?
""Toad[/]:I forget though.. have any US foreign policy mistakes resulted in the destruction of entire civilizations like the Aztecs and the Incas? Your history books probably have more on this"
TacForgot your own history books? I dont remember all the native american tribes kindly moving aside or dying so the west could be won.While I really hate to say this, yes you have and you currently ARE Toad, to a certain degree. Ive had the pleasure of visiting Japan, its become a US-Wannabe. Its really sad, really, really sad.And the Japanese seem to actually want that. I hope history proves me wrong. The grandparents of the family I stayed with for 3 months would tell me this, their impressions and what had been lost. It sometimes made me weep."
Is this not an attempt to portray the US as the destroyer of Japan's civilization? As you readily admit now, they are the masters of their own fate. So, I guess by your own admission, your first post was just another unwarranted attempt to sling mud at the US.
The drug problem in the US is a US problem. Without eager consumers there is no market. I don't blame ColOmbia for servicing the market. {BTW, I'll be glad to help point out your typos and spelling errors as well. For example, in your post english and spanish should be capitalized and dont and doesnt should use the apostrophe. Are we done with English/Typing class now? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)}
OTOH, if you feel being the world's #1 supplier of illicit drugs is an admirable achievement....well, we all have our goals I guess. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Look what it has done for ColOmbia's society.
The US is on its way back towards isolationism. It will take time but it will happen. Greed has nothing to do with it. After all, wouldn't your ColOmbian entrepreneurs still deal with us if we brought all our troops home? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
We don't need our troops overseas to be a major factor in the world economy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
As to wiping out civilizations, let's see you do a little ledger board work Tac.
Go ahead and show everyone all the bad things the US has done in our relations with other nation states. Then post the good things we've done. I'm sure others will chime in and add some to each side. Let's look at it overall.
I'm certain if they ever hand out a prize for "destruction of civilizations" the US won't even be in the running.
Should be a great thread. Go ahead and start it.
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-20-2001).]
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Dowdings kinda quiet, Toad. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Rip,
He's probably just "slaving" away at work. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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No Ripsnort - it's called work + timezone lag. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Note the smilies in my post. Of course we have nothing to be that proud about in our history. But we achieved a great deal also.
And the same goes for America/Americas.
"In 1807, Parliament finally passed a bill that made it illegal for any English vessel to take part in the slave trade.2
So after all that Toad, my original statement is pretty correct? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
And are you now conveniently blaming all Americas problems on your on your colonial past? Come on, Toad. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
<EDIT>
Toad you comedy genius, you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I'm not quite 'slaving' away - alt-tab is doing overtime at the moment (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif).
I also got paid today, which was nice.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 02-20-2001).]
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No, Dowding, take a look at any of my posts. I blame our problems on US. Accountability/Responsibility. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I wish a few other countries would do the same. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Your original minmalist statement certainly is correct. As always, it's what you leave out that needs to be highlighted. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Why don't you and Tac get together and make up the long list of the ways the US has abused the rest of the world and start a thread. We are, after all, the very personification of Nationalist Evil. (Soon we'll have totally DESTROYED Japan's civilization, muhahahahahha!! Well, according to Tac, anyway (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
I (and a few others, no doubt) will try to point out the very, very few things we've done to help out the rest of the world. (Which of course we only did as cover for our truly evil intentions of total world domination. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
Should be a great opportunity for all of you to get it out of your systems!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW, anything in the news TODAY that you can blame on us? Wouldn't want to miss anything!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Minimalism rocks! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Nice of you to jump on the "Everyone's against us - let's shut up shop" bandwagon. Perhaps, if the US is not prepared to take a little criticism, then it's time it did go and lick its wounds for awhile.
No-one is suggesting that the US is the personification of evil.
Because that would be Wales. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
goodbye!
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 02-20-2001).]
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Ok, there is a wide merge between "tracking" and "launch". Following the USAF logic SAM crews should launch at any hostile AC that crosses the range of fire.
Dowding, I don't want anyone to die on any side in this conflict. I only wanted to say that Iraqi Air Defence should reply to bombings in a proper way.
Does anyone know were there any launches from Iraqi side? I doubt it.
During SAM trainings here in Russia it's common to "track" or "lock" on civilian flights. And it doesn't mean that they are about to shoot Aeroflot planes.
Regarding hanging "lables" onto people who participate in this discussion - I enjoy talking to most of the people here. Cabby's "goebels-ish" remark was a great surprise for me, but sometimes I post drunk or angry and don't think before I write.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Interesting article on Iraqi sanctions: http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/Iraq/sanctions.htm (http://www.zmag.org/CrisesCurEvts/Iraq/sanctions.htm)
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Blur, who cares! People prefer to replace their brain with CNN reciever... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Just as it happened during the Yugoslavia bombings.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Boroda:but sometimes I post drunk or angry and don't think before I write.
Well, sounds like you might have a problem, the first step to recovery is realizing you have a problem, the second step is acting upon that realization.
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The third step is reading something besides Pravda (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Moose11:
Hey Dowding,
Who bailed out the UK during WWII? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Don'tcha love it when people aren't gracious? Without the US stepping in (as forced as we were) and shipping so many resources to the Brits, you would be under the Nazi regime.
(well, that's a pretty stiff comment to make but there is little doubt Britain would have fell or relented to the Germans without the USA.)
All this endless bickering...
Yup, Britain was a good platform... remember where all the planes flew from? If Britain had been overwhelmed by Germany then where would the US had flown from?
As for all the supplies from the US, well that was extremely costly to Britain with many islands, properties in US, money and the all important technology was what Britain had to give up. If Britain had have been invaded and taken over earlier without the help of the US, I wonder just how advanced the US would be now without all this 'leading' technology? (many of Britain's secrets were exchanged and if the US hadn't had stepped in then how would they ahve got Nazi technology?) Fortunately for the US they made a lot out of Britain after both WW1 and WW2. So, please no more 'bail outs', I think you guys made enough out of Britain, perhaps a lot more than you realise.
Nexx
Thought... Now if Britain had stayed neutral then I wonder how long the secrets would have stayed in Britain....
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"We don't need our troops overseas to be a major factor in the world economy"
Oh my this is too good. Ill let you stew in that illusion.
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Tac, you must be sampling your country's major export. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Rip, I do have some problems, one of them is involving into flame wars with people who belong to completely different culture, and trying to express my opinion in a foreign language. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Raubvogel, Pravda is no more then a marginal nazi-communist leaflet now. After it was abandoned by Greeks that owned it for about 5 years it got even worse.
In Communist times I always listened to shortwave radio to know Western point of view on what's happening. Now I listen to many pro-Western Russian media, some official news like ORT and sometimes read left-radical newspapers - they are so funny! And definetly the Net is a great source of information where you can find any point of view.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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boroda, Think we have a slight cutural difference, Your military may "routinely" lock up civil aircraft, Ours would never do that, and we don't even lockup military A/c except during given training, it's considered "impolite" (Army slang for the chopper will land at your position and the crew will beat the living toejam outta you)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Don't bother Nexx - our American friends like to think of themselves as the saviours of Western civilisation, and anything other than unbridled gratitude (with a little sychophany stirred in) is considered deceitful and treacherous. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Pzvg, certainly there are many differences. For example: Russian Air Force never bombed cities that are about to be taken by their allies burning down 100000 civilians in one night. Russia never droped nukes onto cities just to see what happens. Russian planes never poured napalm on villages. Russia never sent it's strategic bombers to bomb powerstation levees. Russia never bombed independany countries killing thousands of civilians because of so-called "human rights violation". Russia never bombed civilians because their leader wears the wrong dress.
OTOH - Russia supplied nations being "bombed down to stone age" with SAMs and interceptors to protect civilians.
I think that this difference is caused by the fact that Russians know how it feels when your home is bombed to dust, while US escaped this sad experience.
How many SAMs does the US have now? Did they ever score any kills? I think that my Uncle's personal record (4 kills in Vietnam and some more in Middle East, S-75 "Dvina" targeting officer) is bigger then the whole US SAM history.
About being polite: was it a joke? In my understanding "impolite" is to eat with your bare hands in public. Another cultural difference, BTW. But I think that the existance of McDonald's is not a reason to bomb US.
Sorry for such an angry post. I have been in the US myself and I think that Americans are nice and vigorous people. But I believe that supporting the bombings is immoral. That's my personal opinion and I doubt that I will ever change it.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Originally posted by Boroda:
Pzvg, certainly there are many differences. For example: Russian Air Force never bombed cities that are about to be taken by their allies burning down 100000 civilians in one night. Russia never droped nukes onto cities just to see what happens. Russian planes never poured napalm on villages. Russia never sent it's strategic bombers to bomb powerstation levees. Russia never bombed independany countries killing thousands of civilians because of so-called "human rights violation". Russia never bombed civilians because their leader wears the wrong dress.
HAHAHA....maybe not, but the US never killed millions more of its own people than the enemy did. Or maybe they didn't teach you about the Stalin purgings? Russian planes never poured napalm on villages? You guys have a short memory...let me give ya a little hint...AFGHANISTAN. LOL
How many SAMs does the US have now? Did they ever score any kills? I think that my Uncle's personal record (4 kills in Vietnam and some more in Middle East, S-75 "Dvina" targeting officer) is bigger then the whole US SAM history.
[/b]
How did your relatives fair against F-86's in the Korean War? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Sorry for such an angry post. I have been in the US myself and I think that Americans are nice and vigorous people. But I believe that supporting the bombings is immoral. That's my personal opinion and I doubt that I will ever change it.
Thank you, I needed a good laugh today. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) hehehe the Soviet Union teaching the United States about human rights LOL.
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No Dowding.
It's actually more like:
"They are just absolutely sick to death of hearing how the spectators in the cheap seats could have done it faster, better, cheaper and in a much more humanitarian fashion, without a trace of national self-interest."
It's such an EASY game...why don't you folks take the field for a while?
The game is called "damned if you do, damned if you don't." I'm sure you'll enjoy it.
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Yeah Ruskies are such humanitarians ,, hahaha ,Downing , are you russian too , You liberal commie bastard . Mother russia toejams on their civilians daily , Sell arms to terrorist who kill women and children . GOD I'm glad I'm American !!! yes Sadam is a kind , caring DICTATOR !!! ARE YOU GUYS BLIND OR JUST STUPID
OH,, I almost forgot GET THE HELL OUT OF IRELAND YOU LAND GRABBIN SOB's
If ya go back far enough , Most Americans were euro's (idiot)
[This message has been edited by paintmaw (edited 02-22-2001).]
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So - who's next? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Raubvogel, my Uncle got wounded by one of the first Shrikes used in Vietnam. My family had cavalry, artillery (including Guards Jet Mortars and Anti Aircraft Defence) and engineering officers, noone served as a pilot, noone was in Korea.
I don't support Saddam. I will always stand for the poor people who suffer from "peacekeeping" bombings.
Selling arms to terrorists?! Facts please! Isn't it the US who welcomes Chechen representatives? Who the hell sold them Stingers?
Nice to see so many people hating my nation. I like these flame wars! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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You want a fact? Ok try these on for size
AK series of rifles, most common terrorist weapon made in Russia
Semtex, most common explosive used by terrorists made in Russia
RPG-7 Anti-tank weapon most common terrorist anti-limo weapon, made in Russia
Pray tell need I continue?
You want the Chechnyans to stop blowing up toejam? let them have the independence that they're obviously willing to fight for, I don't really think you'll find them continuing the war if you do.
Find another rationale for your overseas arms sales, supporting the "poor oppressed nations" became passe, maybe y'all just do it for the cold hard cash?
Nice try, your serve.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Should the US wax every Iraqi radar site that switches from search to track? That's for the pilot of the F-16 WunderJet to decide, not me. He's the guy who could meet an SA-11 or SA-19 SAM in under 40 seconds. What would I do in that situation? Drop a 500 pound frag NEAR the offending radar site. Just letting them know I don't like being lit up, nothing more. And they persisted in it? Ok, I'd splatter them all over the desert.
You can't really warn a radar site with anything other than a bomb dropped near by. Sanctions? pffft, if and when Sadam sobers up he might actually try playing a nice guy. Personally I don't care what he does. He's being an bellybutton at the moment, just like always. As long as he keeps doing what he's doing he deserves every bomb dropped and every missile fired.
In a differet thread someone questioned whether or not the US should have bombed Sadam himself. I think we should have. Would have saved everyone the trouble of keeping this sanction crap in place.
As for military practices, well every military unit has their little secrets. US AWACS aircraft regularly track drug flights, civilian aircraft, and military planes. F-14 Tomcats and E-2C Hawkeye airborne radar aircraft have been known to track high-altitude civilian aircraft. Especially when operating over the Atlantic. US Navy attack subs will track cruise ships for practice and training of new sonar techs. Boomers (SSBNs) do the same thing, but to use their noisy wake as an accoustic screen.
It's nothing terribly staggering in the form of news. Military units of every country will do just about anything for practice. Targeting civilian flights and tracking cruise ships or tankers has been done by anyone with an airforce or navy for years. Wow, we should run right out and picket the White House or the Joint Chiefs for this terrible act! Goobers. It was done in the past, it's being done now, and they'll do it in the future. Big fat hairy deal.
-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was
Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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Boroda, I see you didn't respond to my little wake up call. Don't remember that little place called Afghanistan? What was the USSR doing there....was it humanitarian aid? LOL
You said: I will always stand for the poor people who suffer from "peacekeeping" bombings.
What about the "poor people" the Russians bombed for 10 years in Afghanistan? I suppose you've also forgotten about this little thing called the Eastern Bloc? Let me refresh your memory. That's a term used to refer to the forced subjugation of millions of people in 9 formerly sovereign nations.
Before you criticize the US you might want to think about your country's past.
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And the beat goes on .....
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/02/22/us.iraq.strike.02/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/02/22/us.iraq.strike.02/index.html)
Eagler
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What can I say?
(http://cdc.keenspace.com/comics/lof20001009.GIF)
Its from a great webcoming, check it out www.lifeonforbez.com (http://www.lifeonforbez.com)
[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 02-22-2001).]
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"Pentagon sources say China helping Iraq"
http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/02/20/china.iraq.02/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/02/20/china.iraq.02/index.html)
Another reason why we should be having "most favored nation" relationships with China?
Fury
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Heh, china is looking after its own interests... they are industrializing and need oil.. a lot of it.
US needs China's partnership... $$$$.
Gotta love politics and the liars behind it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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pzvg wrote"
You want a fact? Ok try these on for size AK series of rifles, most common terrorist weapon made in Russia Semtex, most common explosive used by terrorists made in Russia RPG-7 Anti-tank weapon most common terrorist anti-limo weapon, made in Russia
Not only Russia knows how to make this stuff. It is produced in China and many eastern european countries with license or without. Some weapons were left when Russia withdrew troops out. In fact even if it was made in Russia, there is no proof that it was sold by the goverment in official way. And Im pretty sure it was not. Claiming this is same as claim that US supplied anti-aircraft systems to Chechnya.
As far as SAM/aircrafts/tanks/... exported from Russia concerned - sure cash is almost the only reason.
Pray tell need I continue? You want the Chechnyans to stop blowing up toejam? let them have the independence that they're obviously willing to fight for, I don't really think you'll find them continuing the war if you do.
We did. Russia forgot that Chechnya is it's part and had enough of "peace" with Chechnya till 1999. You know what happened then ?
I would really appreciate if you share your thoughts regarding Israel and US military aid. Would you suggest Israelis "leave Palestinians alone as it it their country and they certainly willing to fight for it" ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Find another rationale for your overseas arms sales, supporting the "poor oppressed nations" became passe, maybe y'all just do it for the cold hard cash?
Can not disagree. US have largest % in this market and besides cash it is just fun to lower it a bit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by sshh (edited 02-23-2001).]
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Ok y'all win, WE ARE THE BAD GUYS! Guess that explains why so many of ya live here.
Humph, Ok, we're bad, guess we should just conquer all the weaker states, and make the strong ones glow. Keep living the pipe dream folks, label someone often enough, it tends to stick. Considering what you're labelling us as, Do you really want that?
Note; It's not a threat, last time I checked I was not in a position to make policy for the United States of America, I was, I wouldn't be the terror y'all cast us to be, but we wouldn't have a no-fly zone in Iraq either, Call us what the hell you want, I know you'll also call us whenever there's trouble, and being the ignorant,intolerant,despotic,evil that we are, naturally we'll come to your aid, unappreciated and unwanted as always, suggestion, from now on, y'all just have "European Wars" 'stead of "World Wars" we'll stay home and sell weapons to both sides, deal?
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Raubvogel: isn't it a good idea to visit Afghanistan now, 12 years after Evil Empire's 40th Army left it, just to see the result of the US support of the "freedom fighters"?
If there were any villages completely destroyed by VVS - pleas give me locations and time. Soviet Aviation was used mostly to interrupt weapon supply lines in Southern Afghanistan.
/*Sorry - was a bad idea to mention "napalm on villages" - I can't give you any facts too . Shame on me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) */
Flakbait, my hat off for you - you and Sshh sound like the only sane people here (I definetly don't (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
The problem is that if you want to warn SAM crew, and if they are not suiciders, you just have to drop almost anything that can be tracked by a radar from your AC. When the target "separates" - it means that it launches something like Shrike or HARM, so if you want to stay alive - you'd better shut down the target illuminating station power. No need to kill anyone. And if they don't stop tracking you - just launch a real Shrike. Now it's clear that they can only blame themself and run for the bombshelters from their cabins.
Pzvg, I am 100% sure that you are a nice guy, and if we'll ever meet each other we'll have enough things to talk about w/o that political crap. But I think that the current US regime is a danger to the whole mankind. It is not your fault. I also think that the current Russian regime is no good too, being the worst combination of "animal-capitalism" and imperial ideology exploiting "neopatriotism" and "national self-understanding" to approve it's dirty deeds. Damn, a KGB "officer" as a president!
As for "running for help" - even in this thread I saw someone say that USSR fought in WWII "on American money". That's the problem: US always thinks of war as of a kind of "investment". JFYI: USSR payed every damn kopeyka for the US lend-leased aid! While US gained huge financial and political profits for each of the 20 millions of Soviet citizens who perished in a War.
Another thing to think about concerning "cultural differences": Russian Empire never discriminated people according to their national or racial origins.
To All: Sorry, just curious where else this thread can lead us (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Quote:
"but I think that the current US regime is a danger to the whole mankind."
Boroda, to say the US Government is a "regime" is a hoot, i.e. funny.
Please, don't project your country's past miserable governments on to that of the USA's.
The biggest "danger to mankind" are all those sorry nations that have yet to enter the 20th Century, much the less the 21st.
Cabby
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Originally posted by Boroda:
JFYI: USSR payed every damn kopeyka for the US lend-leased aid!
Well, as of 30 June 2000 there was $155 million outstanding. It may have been big money in 1940 but it's pocket change now. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Do you have any information that the $155 million was paid since the June 2000 rescheduling of the debt? I could find no record of further payments.
BTW, I'm not complaining about non-payment. I'm glad the US was able to help your country, during and after WW2, with food supplies and economic aid.
This statement is a bit much, however: "While US gained huge financial and political profits for each of the 20 millions of Soviet citizens who perished in a War". Bit of a reach, don't you think?
Anyway.........
http://www.state.gov/www/issues/economic/fs_000301_wardebt.html (http://www.state.gov/www/issues/economic/fs_000301_wardebt.html)
War-Related Debts of Other Countries to the U.S. Government
Fact Sheet, released by the Bureau of Economic and Business Affairs
U.S. Department of State, March 1, 2000
"The case of debts arising from World War II is somewhat less complicated. At this time only four countries, discussed below, owe the U.S. government debts of any size arising from World War II programs to aid our allies. Other countries have paid their debts in full.
The United Kingdom still has amounts outstanding from World War II and its immediate aftermath which it continues to repay on a regular basis. World War II-era claims on Iran have been incorporated into the claims being adjudicated by the Iran-U.S. Claims Tribunal, established after the 1979 Iranian revolution. Lend Lease claims against the former Soviet Union arising from World War II were settled in a 1972 agreement between the U.S. and U.S.S.R. In the 1972 agreement, the U.S.S.R. pledged to make three initial payments totaling $48 million and to repay the remaining Lend Lease debt once the United States had granted Most Favored Nations (MFN) trade status. The Soviet Union made the three initial downpayments, but because it did not obtain MFN status at that time -- because of conditions set forth in the 1974 Trade Act -- its obligation to make the remaining payments toward its Lend Lease debt was not triggered before the dissolution of the U.S.S.R. However, MFN status was extended to the Russian Federation in 1992, and accordingly, in 1993, Russia signed an agreement with the U.S. in which it acknowledged its liability and agreed to a repayment schedule for the former U.S.S.R.'s Lend Lease debt. Finally, the U.S. continues to work for a resolution with Taiwan of the issue of debts arising from World War II-era loans extended to China."
http://www.cnie.org/nle/inter-19.html (http://www.cnie.org/nle/inter-19.html)
IB92089: Russia
Stuart D. Goldman
Foreign Affairs, Defense, and Trade Division
November 28, 2000
"On May 26, as required by law thirty days prior to its taking effect, the Administration submitted to Congress a report on a bilateral agreement with Russia to reschedule its 1999 and 2000 repayments of Soviet-era debt. While Paris Club creditors have been adverse to total forgiveness, they have favored rescheduling due to the burden the debt places on Russian efforts to reform its economy. However, Chairmen Helms and Gilman in mid-June announced they would put the agreement on "hold" due to Russian actions in Chechnya and support for Serbia. What made this move particularly significant is that, of the roughly $485 million of U.S. debt that would be rescheduled, $155 million was part of its Lend Lease debt, held from World War II. A provision of the Trade Act of 1974 requires that arrears in this debt be punished by loss of MFN (most favored nation/normal trade relations) status. Therefore, if the debt could not be rescheduled, on July 1, when payment would otherwise be due, Russia would either be forced to make the payment or stand to lose its MFN status.
On June 30, the Administration announced that it would proceed with the rescheduling, regardless of the congressional leaders' views.
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Originally posted by Boroda:
Raubvogel: isn't it a good idea to visit Afghanistan now, 12 years after Evil Empire's 40th Army left it, just to see the result of the US support of the "freedom fighters"?
The result is that it isn't a territory of Russia (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Mission accomplished.
Another thing to think about concerning "cultural differences": Russian Empire never discriminated people according to their national or racial origins.
No, they didn't discriminate. Everyone was equally oppressed LOL.
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http://www.comptons.com/encyclopedia/TABLES/150995309_T.html (http://www.comptons.com/encyclopedia/TABLES/150995309_T.html)
United States Lend-Lease Act
British Empire $31,390,000,000
Soviet Union 11,100,000,000
France 3,230,000,000
China 1,557,399,993
American republics 495,410,240
The Netherlands 230,127,717
Greece 75,475,880
Belgium 148,394,457
Norway 51,524,124
Turkey 26,026,355
Yugoslavia 32,026,355
Other countries 24,787,879
Aid not charged to foreign governments 2,578,827,000
Total $50,940,000,000
Reverse Lend-Lease Aid
United Kingdom $5,072,102,000
Australia 835,004,000
New Zealand 204,566,000
India 639,443,000
Union of South Africa 885,000
France 795,471,000
French Africa 70,358,000
French New Caledonia 1,171,000
Belgium 191,033,983
Belgian Congo 182,000
The Netherlands 1,450,699
Dutch Curaçao and Surinam 917,000
China 3,672,000
Soviet Union 2,210,000
Total $7,818,465,682
Lot of zeros. Pretty much speaks for itself. (Reverse Lend-Lease are the items we got in return, like bases, aircraft, etc.)
Somebody with a big calculator can figure out the net. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Wonder how much that all is/was in 2000 Dollars.
<edit> don't ya just love the net?
http://www.orst.edu/dept/pol_sci/fac/sahr/cv2000rv.htm (http://www.orst.edu/dept/pol_sci/fac/sahr/cv2000rv.htm)
1945 0.105
So $11,100,000,000/.105 = $105,714,285,714
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 02-25-2001).]
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On the subject of RADAR being switched to track...
Once a RADAR is switched to track, a missile can be launched undetected by passive detection systems (most common in fighters). The RADAR has the ability to guide the missile all the way to the target without the missile having to fire up its own aquisition system.
That is why RADAR that goes into tracking mode is dangerous. That is why it is destroyed.
By the way, why do you think we would respond to someone when they begin "tracking" our planes with RADAR? I mean.. they couldn't have been testing the waters. There wouldn't be a step that occurs after that. Nah.. it probably woulda just ended there.
AKDejaVu
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Toad - thanks a lot! Sorry, I didn't know this (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
As for my statement - I still think this is true. The whole US politics in WWII was to weaken the countries involved in European war. The whole "Second Front" issue shows it. USSR fought for the survival of the whole nation. And about Pacific war - you already know my opinion.
155 million you say?! Now please tell me why US claimed all the lend-leased machinery to be returned in operational condition, with all original spare-parts included, just to send all the trucks etc under the press right in the port?! Why were most of the reparations sent to the USSR delivered in unoperable conditions, so that Soviet Navy inspectors had to storm Italian ships delivered to Albanian ports so they could get them somehow able to float?
Raubvogel: Afghanistan is not a part of Tajikistan, not Russia. Russia liberated Middle Asia 130 years ago, but never claimed for Afghanistan. I think that it should be better for Afghan people to be a part of a Soviet block then to be captured by Taliban fundamentalists.
Cabby, if to "enter 21st century" is to lay down to the US - I'll prefer to stay in 20th century then to drink Coke, chew Wrigley's and listen to MTV crap. That "miserable governments" saved the world from nazism, protected Europe from drugs and finaly were the only way to save the world from corporate slavery backed up by the US nukes.
AKDejaVu, if the USAF planes can't detect missile launches - it's their problem. They were never attacked. But they still bombed Iraq. The only good thing is that they were unable to destroy Iraqi Aircraft Defence. Famous American technology is still unable to destroy a mid-50s SAM site. Nothing changed since 1986, when brand-new HARMs only slightly damaged S-200 in Lybia so it was operational after 24 hours, but Soiet side got an undamaged HARM.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Originally posted by Boroda:
Raubvogel: Afghanistan is not a part of Tajikistan, not Russia. Russia liberated Middle Asia 130 years ago, but never claimed for Afghanistan. I think that it should be better for Afghan people to be a part of a Soviet block then to be captured by Taliban fundamentalists.
Boroda, you continue to amaze me. I never realized before just how much crap the Russians fed their people. The key words in the above sentence are that You think it would be better for the Afghans to be part of the Soviet Union. Well, I guess the Afghans thought differently, eh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Cabby, if to "enter 21st century" is to lay down to the US - I'll prefer to stay in 20th century then to drink Coke, chew Wrigley's and listen to MTV crap. That "miserable governments" saved the world from nazism, protected Europe from drugs and finaly were the only way to save the world from corporate slavery backed up by the US nukes.
[/b]
Oh yes, the great savior Mother Russia protected Europe from drugs and corporate slavery. LMAO! It is really sad that you believe these things. Hasn't anyone ever told you that you might have been severely misinformed over the past years? Corporate slavery backed up by US nukes as opposed to Communist slavery backed up by Russian nukes eh? Hmm...which one should I pick hehe. I'm sure that you really believe much of what you write, and I feel sorry for you.
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AKDejaVu, if the USAF planes can't detect missile launches - it's their problem. They were never attacked.
I got news for ya.. Russian planes can't detect missiles launched under these conditions either. No plane can... unless they have an active radar that is searching for SAMS. That is why "Locking" an aircraft equates to a missile launch. I guess its not really important that you understand this. What is important is that the Iraq military does, and they locked the aircraft anyways.
As far as your comments in regards to American weapons... just how many US aircraft were shot down by Soviet aircraft in that conflict? Oh.. yeah.. zero. How many US air defense systems were destroyed by Soviet supplied weapons in that conflict? Oh.. yeah.. zero.
As for the difference between being destroyed and being effectively shut down.. you figure out if the attack did its job. Do you think the Iraqis were locking any NATO fighters within 24 hours?
AKDejaVu
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It's such an EASY game...why don't you folks take the field for a while?
We already tried - something called the British Empire (do a search on the net for it). It had mixed results and while probably being quite good for us Brits, it might not have been so good for the rest of the world.
Spectators, you say? We had half of the world under the British Crown, and our population was a fifth of yours, sitting on an island the size of one of your states with very few natural resources. I'd say that was pretty good going.
The method of influence was probably just as acceptable/moral/ethical back then as yours is now.
I think after several centuries worth of dominance in the influence stakes, it was about time someone else had a go.
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Deja, launches can be detected by ground radars, E-3s, etc. Yes, many SAMs are semi-active, and follow the reflection of a tracking beam. I am not sure, but AFAIK S-75 (the most popular good old SAM that did so good in Vietnam) has a radio-command targeting, so "tracking" must not differ much from just "painting" targets on a view screen. I'll ask people who worked with it.
As for "shutting down" instead of destroying - now Iraqui will probably rearrange their AA system and in case they will decide to launch - it should be a nice surprise for "peacekeepers".
The whole bombing thing looks absurd for me.
Raubvogel, USSR never (once again and slowly: N E V E R) wanted Afghanistan to become a Soviet republic.
I see that you don't understand the heart of the matter. Before USSR passed off we had two superpowers in balance, both restricted from doing bad things by the very existance of the opponent. Now the US world domination is a very sad thing. I agree that Soviet world domination could be even worse - but we never saw it in RL.
As for being sorry for me - I feel sorry for you too. It's sad, but the US politics and maybe even the whole American mentality is based on deep misunderstanding of other cultures and mental inflexibility. Didn't you ever think that "US bashers" here usualy have one common idea (or a stereotype?) of Americans, their politics and culture? When dozens of people from around the world say the same thing about you - isn't it a reason to think about it a little?
Wow... I ended up with an attack on American mentality (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) Strange, came to this in the first post in this thread written when I am sober...
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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<sigh> Naah, pass on this
Quote, never teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig
Meaning it is impossible to convince them that we might be in the right, I withdraw from useless banter, We bombed them, guess what? They are gonna turn the SAMs back on and we're gonna bomb them again, Give that consideration in your world view.
(Pzvg has very cosmopolitan world view, might be caused by AK round lodged in my leg)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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C'mon, Boroda, get a grip. The USA is populated by just about EVERY race and ethnic group in the world. And MOST of 'em are glad they are here and don't give a flip what the "rest of the world" thinks. Who cares.
I can't remember how many Euros, Asians, etc. i have known who would have given ANYTHING to get permanent status to stay in the USA.
Make no mistake, the USA looks after it's OWN interests FIRST. If the "rest of the world" has a better way of doing things than the USA, then fine and dandy, knock yourselves out. Just don't ask for any more financial hand-outs.
Livin' In The USA,
Cabby
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Deja, launches can be detected by ground radars, E-3s, etc.
None of these are on the plane. Any of these detection methods would involve immediately being able to contact the target. Seconds count. So.. while they can detect it, they do little good to the pilot that needs those precious seconds to react.
As for being sorry for me - I feel sorry for you too. It's sad, but the US politics and maybe even the whole American mentality is based on deep misunderstanding of other cultures and mental inflexibility.
LOL! And this coming from the culturally diverse mecca of the universe.. Moscow.
Boroda, have you been to the "Chinatown" in Moscow? How about a predominantly black portion of town in Russia? How about a Vietnamese community? Ooooo.. how about an Afghani community? Are there any of these in Moscow?
It simply amazes me that you make this statement. I also find the last sentance to be a tad bit more than ironic.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Dowding:
We already tried - something called the British Empire (do a search on the net for it)... The method of influence was probably just as acceptable/moral/ethical back then as yours is now.
Dowding, surely you jest?
You would not in your wildest fantasies attempt to compare the goals and methods of the British Empire in its colonialist "conquistadorian" grandeur to the goals and methods of the US in the post WW2 international environment?
You tried? Tried to conquer and rule every less technologically and less politically developed nation that you could land troops on before any of the other colonial powers beat you to it! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 03-01-2001).]
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Boroda,
I strongly disagree. I think the "The whole US politics in WWII was to" defeat the Nazis and end the war in Europe... as well as defeat the Japanese and end the war in the Pacific.
Here is the entire text of the US-Soviet Lene Lease Agreement.
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/amsov42.htm (http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/wwii/amsov42.htm)
Please note that the agreement stipulates the loan of this equipment/supplies/money/whatever on a TOTALLY interest free basis and also that no adjustment for inflation is required.
Now if you can think of another nation that would lend the Soviet Union $11,100,000,000 under those conditions, I'd like to know who it is or was.
Adjusted simply for inflation, that mere $155 million still owed would be a very large sum right now. But that wasn't the deal and no one expects it to be adjusted.
"ARTICLE V
The Government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics will return to the United States of America at the end of the present emergency, as determined by the President of the United States of America, such defense articles transferred under this agreement as shall not have been destroyed, lost or consumed and as shall be determined by the President to be useful in the defense of the United States of America or of the Western Hemisphere or to be otherwise of use to the United States of America."
I would guess that we wanted that stuff back because it would be more useful in "the defense of the US" if the Soviet Forces didn't have it to use in their occupation/conquest/enslavement of all of Eastern Europe. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
It was probably cheaper to destroy it than ship it home. It was certainly cheaper to destroy it than let Soviet Forces use it to threaten the remaining part of Europe that they had not yet occupied. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
As for reparations, I really don't know. I wasn't aware of the US paying reparations to the Soviet Union after the war. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I sort of remember something about us helping both our former enemies AND allies get back on their feet economically.
But then every nation in every war has done that, right? Rebuilt the defeated nations? Helped them get back on their feet as independent, free nations again?
Sort of like what you guys did for Poland and all the rest? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 03-01-2001).]
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Cabby, Deja, you surprise me. Is it true that you are proud that different national groups have to live in ghettos!?
Some national communities here in Moscow prefer to live together, but usually they are refugees like Kurds (funny to see them turn a 6-stored apartment house into something like a middle-asian village (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)) or work together like Vietnamese. Most of the other national groups - Caucasians, Jews, Kazakhs etc. live among Russians and don't have any problems.
Do you know that illegal immigration is a big problem in Russia now?
BTW, "Kitay-gorod" ("China-town" in Russian) is a large district in a center of Moscow, near Kremlin.
Cabby, if US cares only for itself - then why the hell it interferes everywhere with it's "humanitarian bombings"? Here is an answer. Even Yugoslavian bombings were arranged for some economical reasons. Remember how the "euro" exchange rate dropped during that war?
What really amazed me was Bzhezinsky saying that the whole "human rights" anti-Soviet capaingn had the only purpose: propaganda and political pressure. He even said that noone ever cared for human rights. Reminded me of the fact that "human rights" issue was one of the reasons for the dividing of Czechoslovakia in 1938...
If you are afraid of radar tracking and still fly inside SAM ranges - you are stupid or you are provoking SAM crews. That bombings look like another twist of a cowboy's "shoot first" habit in an inernational scale.
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With respect,
Pavel Pavlov,
Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS
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Is it true that you are proud that different national groups have to live in ghettos!?
LOL! OK.. I missed where I said anything about ghettos. I guess that's something that you just assumed all on your own. Once again, you prove my point for me.
Do you know that illegal immigration is a big problem in Russia now?
Why do I get the impression that ANY immigration would be seen as a big problem in Russia? BTW.. how many of those immigrants are from the US? How many are Chinese? How many are Korean? How many are Mexican?
Do you really have any idea of what you are talking about? You aren't trying to compare illegal immigration in Russia to the US are you? You do know that this nation is about 99.7 % immigrants don't you? Please.. tell us once again how much experience on the subject you have.
My boss is Chinese. Of the 9 engineers I work with, 3 are caucasion, 2 are Korean, 1 is Chinese, 1 is Vietnamese and 1 is Irish (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
My neighbors across the street are Ukranian. They own a senior care center. They've been in the US about 10 years. My neighbors two houses to the right are Vietnamese. She rides the bus downtown with my wife. A friend from work (work is 25 miles from my house) lives one block over. He is black. Our families go out together all the time.
I'm an average joe here in the US. Do you know of anyone that is surrounded by this much cultural diversity near you?
AKDejaVu
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You must have done very well in the Party Boroda (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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S!
I have never had such a laugh before I found this thread. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)Virtually USA,Great-Britain and Russia are wrestling who's right/wrong.Everyone throws an argument and the other tries to sink it and so the debate goes on and on.Really interesting reading has this thread been offering.You guys really know how to debate and seem to stand behind Your opinions.Maybe this would be a better way to solve conflicts...a heated debate on a BBS (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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...before any of the other colonial powers beat you to it!
This is exactly the point I'm making; that the actions of the British Empire would have been emulated by any other nation, if they had had the chance.
I think this is the position the US is in today.
You also have to put the past actions of states in their correct historical context and not judge by modern standards.
Take the Romans - brutal, deeply socially divided and very decadent by modern standards. But compared to most other societies at that time, they were positively enlightened.
Tried to conquer and rule every less technologically and less politically developed nation that you could land troops on before any of the other colonial powers beat you to it!
[/b]
And the US/NATO and USSR weren't fighting a war of ideological conquest? Admittedly, the US were just a bit ( (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) more forgiving in their methods, but the principal was the same. Stop your immediate rival from making territorial gains, by any means neccessary. The US/NATO had the added difficulty that they were ultimately accountable to their populace, and nothing too overt could be attempted.
Communism allowed the Russian leadership to do as it pleased, but in the end, I think that contributed to their downfall.
But my overall point still stands - most Americans seem to think that US super-power ascendency marked some kind of datum point in world history - as if the US was the first to acheive this status.
[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 03-01-2001).]
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hehe,they just copycats (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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But my overall point still stands - most Americans seem to think that US super-power ascendency marked some kind of datum point in world history - as if the US was the first to acheive this status.
Actually, I don't know any Americans that believe we were the first to reach this. We, as a rule, know where we came from. We know who we had to defeat to get here.
I guess its just as fair to say that most Brits seem to feel as if they still hold this status, merely because they did early last century.
AKDejaVu
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Well, maybe it's just a general impression then.
America's ascendency seemes pretty inevitable. Large population, extensive natural resources, stable government, ideology, good diplomatic and trade relations with the rest of the world. It would have taken a lot to bollocks that lot up. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
OTOH, during the 20th century, Britain fought two world wars, with a small population and limited home country resources, losing control over her colonies and her wealth. It would have taken a genius to come through that with an Empire intact after all that. I guess it was Britain's turn to take a back seat in world affairs, and the Empire had had its day.
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You miss the piont entirely.
We're not in it for world conquest. Never have been. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
We're in it because it's easier to do this than have to join in a World War somebody else starts every 35 years or so! ;0
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It's when America thinks it ISN'T any different from other nations is when the trouble begins.
Comparing America to the ancient Romans, the Colonial Brits, or any other "empire" of the past is ridiculous. And ignorant of the way Americans feel about their place in the world.
Cabby
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Toad - Times have changed, true - the method of conquest has also changed. But the reasons haven't - nationalistic self-interest is the cornerstone, as much as it ever was. The need to generate and then support an affluent society is not a new development. The Romans did it, we British did it and now the US is following in our foot-steps.
The difference is in method - conquest by force is unacceptable in a so called civilised world - multi-national companies are now the expeditonary forces of Western world.
I also think that if our governments thought they could get away with it, they'd use more unscrupulous ways to secure their position, economically, territorially and militarily.
Are you seriously asserting that America is not engaged in an economic conquest of the world? Is altruism the cornerstone of American big business?
We're in it because it's easier to do this than have to join in a World War somebody else starts every 35 years or so!
You have heard of the Wall Street Crash, I assume? It is as much of a factor in the advent of WW2 as the Versailles treaty. World War 2 was a global conflict both in execution and origins.
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The US is trying to conquer the world financially? Huh? Have you seen the latest figures for our trade deficit? If we are trying to conquer the world financially, we are doing a piss poor job of it.
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The fact is that US/UK planes are not "just" being "tracked" or "painted". There is a real shooting war going on inside the no-fly zones, and the ROE of allied pilots is to respond accordinly to Iraqi missle launches. I'm sure any of us would react to being shot at. And this would be expected who ever the situation.
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Originally posted by Park:
... But the reasons haven't - nationalistic self-interest is the cornerstone, as much as it ever was....
US Nationalistic Self-Interest in taking the lead after WW2?
Absolutely! Since it is in our very best "Nationalistic Self-Interest" to keep our sons and daughters from dying in another World War on the European continent!!
Thank Gawd we didn't and we're NOT following in your footsteps! There would have already BEEN another World War!. You folks managed to be "at peace" all the way from 1918 until 1939. We of course retreated into isolationism after the First World War slaughter in Europe. I totally understand that US sentiment now; I didn't when I was younger. 21 entire years! WTG!
I think nearly every WW2 US vet I ever talked to, every "Rosie the riveter" whose husband didn't come home vowed that we could "never let it happen again". They were determined that THEIR sons and daughters wouldn't have to go through what they AND THEIR PARENTS had to go through. This sentiment, from the group that bore the burden, explains why the US stepped up to do the job after WW2.
Economic conquest of the world? ROFLMAO!
Yeah, we're using "Thermonuclear Free Trade" bombs mostly. We open our markets without restriction to nearly ANYONE, whether or not they open their markets to us. It's a devastating tactic. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Then the "piece de resistance"... the suprise "trade deficit". We run incredibly huge trade deficits with almost all our trade partners. We sucker you guys into selling more stuff to us than you will buy from us. This is where we really clean up!
These two tactics just have you guys befuddled, admit it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Even Tac thinks we have to have US troops overseas to make everyone sell to us. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
BTW, on the Versailles Treaty thing, check out Woodrow Wilson's position on how to treat the defeated countries. Compare and contrast his position with that of the representatives of England and France. Unfortunately, no one listened to Wilson.
Wall Street crash? Yes, you have found us out again! We deliberately caused the financial destruction of the US in 1929 in order to plunge the US into the Great Depression. (Knowing of course that this would spread to the entire world, cause a World War and thus insuring US hegemony in the peace that followed. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) )
The fact that European economies weren't too robust either had nothing to do with it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You guys crack me up! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<edit> First Dowding, now Park? Why the change? You like Keith better than Hugh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 03-04-2001).]
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"Even Tac thinks we have to have US troops overseas to make everyone sell to us"
Nope. I think that they are there to keep the markets flowing and stable...for your own interests. The Brits during their colonial periods did it, so did the Spanish and the dutch and the vatican. Its a primary part of the equation. Markets you depend on must be kept open by any means neccessary.. be it diplomatic, economical pressures or troops in the area.
oh and BTW, the US is not trying to take over the world. Bill Gates already beat the US gov to it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
"US Nationalistic Self-Interest in taking the lead after WW2?
Absolutely! Since it is in our very best "Nationalistic Self-Interest" to keep our sons and daughters from dying in another World War on the European continent!!
Thank Gawd we didn't and we're NOT following in your footsteps! There would have already BEEN another World War!. You folks managed to be "at peace" all the way from 1918 until 1939. We of course retreated into isolationism after the First World War slaughter in Europe. I totally understand that US sentiment now; I didn't when I was younger. 21 entire years! WTG!
I think nearly every WW2 US vet I ever talked to, every "Rosie the riveter" whose husband didn't come home vowed that we could "never let it happen again". They were determined that THEIR sons and daughters wouldn't have to go through what they AND THEIR PARENTS had to go through. This sentiment, from the group that bore the burden, explains why the US stepped up to do the job after WW2."
I agree wholeheartedly. Europe's tendency towards armed conflict up to that time was an almost chronic illness. It took one world war (1st) to show them and the world the potential horror of modern weapons used en masse and another one (2nd) which eventually took the war-making power from their governments and into the hands of the civilians...which after the 2nd war saw an entire generation wiped out, the continent a rubble heap and economically in their knees. Talk about needing to suffer a stroke and have near death experiences to wake up to what life is about!
I betcha if Europe had been left alone to rebuild/settle issues without international counseling London, Berlin, Paris, Oslo, etc would be glowing with radiation by now.
[This message has been edited by Tac (edited 03-05-2001).]
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First a sidenote. You can't compare the US role in the world after WW2 to the roles of colonial era powers like Spain and England.
The "colonial" mode of operation was totally different, often involving military conquest and the installation of a government and bureaucracy by the "Mother Country". The colonies existed solely for the benefit of the "Mother Country" and trade was essentially one way. You just can't compare the two roles.
Now, to one of the major points of your post.
Look at it from the other side as well Tac.
It is in the absolute best interest of the SELLING countries to make sure the markets are "flowing and stable".
Is it more important that the US receive imports or that the exporting nation receives huge amounts of US currency?
I think we may survive without cheap toys from China (substitute almost any nation you like)...but will China (substitute almost any nation you like) make it without the US currency?
It applies to oil as well. The US is probably the largest consumer, thus the largest market. Were the US to lose its sources of foreign oil, the US economy would almost certainly collapse. (I do think we should be conserving and working on alternatives, btw.)
This collapse would affect the entire world in short order. Face it, the US market is a vital part of the world economy.
So, any nation that wants to "upset the apple cart" on oil flowing into the US is going to destroy the World Economy as well.
We all depend on each other now, like it or not. I think any half-way intelligent government recognizes that fact.
I think we can safely bring the troops home. The nations that depend on Exports to the US market will find a way to do it without US troops deployed around the world. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If not.... well, one more lesson ought to do it, eh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
"I'd like to teach the world to sing, in perfect har-mo-neeeeeeeee!"
(Now where did I put my pyramid crystal?)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by cabby:
Quote:
"
The biggest "danger to mankind" are all those sorry nations that have yet to enter the 20th Century, much the less the 21st.
Cabby
Let me see if I can come up with an inoffensive way to say this... nope.
Cabby, YOU PIECE OF SH*T!
I believe that you can go to hell now.
That will be all, thank you.
Oh, and thanks to everyone else for their
well stated and clear answers to my original question. I think I'll get out of here now, my mind isn't working quite right in this atmosphere.
ispar