Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Simaril on August 23, 2006, 07:52:14 AM
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I honestly dont care about who wins a given war, just so I can have some fun. But lately, mega sized imbalances have made that tough in the mornings, and even worse the hordes have been armed with unlimited planesets.
This morning there were 67 rooks, about 35 bish, and 12 knights at one point. I'm sure many just logged off, but those of us who wanted to play had to either avoid the enemy and nibble at the edges of the horde, or fight away and get swarmed like a lollipop at a yellowjacket convention.
I didnt mind being so popular to the red guys, and I didnt mind dying a lot. But it got annoying to see that there was not a single high ENY plane in the sky....the entire swarm was niks and ponies.
The lower limit to ENY effect came about because with low numbers the high side would get severe penalties for relatively small numerical advantages. But I think that turning ENY off completely may ahve gone too far...especially since the side imbalances have seemed far more stable this year, with very little trading of the top and bottom spots.
HT, I'd ask you to consider enabling ENY for lower total numbers, but with... lets call it significant dead zone and more dampening than is used for ENY in general. The dead zone would ignore fluctuations in relative ratios when the absolute numerical difference was unimportant, and the dampening would prevent the high side from being stuck in 109Es and goons.
But -- leaving things as they are puts a heavy burden on the low side in AM (est), and that gets old fast.
There needs to be SOME kind of handicap for utterly overwhelming numbers, or frustrated "deserters" from the low sides will sabotage the natural oscillation in side balance that has always been there before.
In fact, I wonder if thats why the advantage hasnt alternated as much this year.
Simaril
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Totally agree Sim.
Whilst flying knights in GMT times this was always the case around 9am to 12 midday. Around these times USA goes to sleep and the Aussie/Euro/Japanese takeover.
Maybe Knights just dont have the same amount of non USA players which may balance out in the future.
Personally I would like to see ENY restrictions at all times so gameplay can be more fair for the team that gets picked on. (I'm sure Dastardly will have something to say about this!)
Having fights in earlier war planes is more fun in my opinion so all round people will have to learn how to fly something else than an LA7, spit 16, niki etc and actually learn some ACM's in planes they are not used to. Hopefully this will increase the overall skill level and proper dogfights will become more commonplace.
Bruv
~S~
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Originally posted by Simaril
and the dampening would prevent the high side from being stuck in 109Es and goons.
Well if they force the numbers so high, I say "Make 'em use the 109E and the goon only! 50,000 109Es are still going to slaughter 100 P51s and N1K2s!" Just make 'em work harder for it.
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I think eny limiter should be based on sector not on the whole arena.
It will reduce the "horde" effect.
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I think the ENY restriction thing is a PIA in general. If it worked it would be one thing, but when you only have 10 more players than one side and you get restricted, what the heck?
I can see issues with the day time balance as mentioned, but during the evening prime time, the ENY restrictions are usually not necessary.
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I disagree. Chances are if you're getting even 5 ENY limit it means that you outnumber a team by a LOT. Knights have been outnumbered by 100 players before and only one team had an ENY limit of 3 or 4 (barely enough to anything!).
If you "only had 10" chances are you only had 10 over the next highest team, and the third team (usually Knight) was outnumbered by 50%, and chances are that (in this case) both the big teams were gang banging the small team (again, usually Knights).
I don't think it kicks in early enough to do anything.
Straffo doing it by sector doesn't matter, because usually the horde is scattered along 2 fronts and across many many sectors, but still just as effective.
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got my vote.
knights were outnumbered 6 to 1 or something rediculous like that the other day, but because the numbers were around 150 overall, no eny limiter, the result, knights trashed again and again. lowering the eny kick-in to 75 or something would be cool
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IMHO
ENY should work on a % of total numbers on. What that % is not for me to decide.
When your side reaches say 40% of total numbers it starts kicking in.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
IMHO
ENY should work on a % of total numbers on. What that % is not for me to decide.
When your side reaches say 40% of total numbers it starts kicking in.
Bronk
it does that already, but the limiter doesnt kick in until there are 200 people in the arena. i think move the limiter start to 75, or get rid of it entirely
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That's just it Biggles I want it to kick in regardless of total numbers.
Bronk
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agreed. whether i am the beater or the beatee, the ENY should be in effect with any number of total players.
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Not so. What if there are only 10 folks on? 4 on one team and 2 on each other team? At 200% of the other teams, that first team would have no planes allowed, basically.
There must be a minimum number of players before the ENY limit kicks in. Otherwise it doesn't work. I think we all just want the limit to kick in much sooner.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Not so. What if there are only 10 folks on? 4 on one team and 2 on each other team? At 200% of the other teams, that first team would have no planes allowed, basically.
There must be a minimum number of players before the ENY limit kicks in. Otherwise it doesn't work. I think we all just want the limit to kick in much sooner.
Erm thats 8 people there krusty.
But with that 8 number lets say it went like this 4,3,1. Still dont want that eny to kick in?
How about 3,3,2. That isnt much better.
Edit: Becides that the eny is just starting to kick in. They would only be denied low eny AC. Ohh no have to take a la5 instead of my la7...booo hooo.
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The "total" amount was lower and generated a fury of whines ... soooo HT upped the number to what it is now.
I doubt very strongly that it will change.
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Originally posted by Bronk
But with that 8 number lets say it went like this 4,3,1. Still dont want that eny to kick in?
Actually, no, I wouldn't want that ENY to kick in. The terrain files (especially if they're the big maps) are so large that there endless opportunity for that "1" to up anywhere he wants and have free open space. At some point, however, there is no more open space and anywhere you go is gang bang country (TM).
So at low number you don't need the ENY limitations, because you have other options. Once those options are gone, you need the limit.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Actually, no, I wouldn't want that ENY to kick in. The terrain files (especially if they're the big maps) are so large that there endless opportunity for that "1" to up anywhere he wants and have free open space. At some point, however, there is no more open space and anywhere you go is gang bang country (TM).
So at low number you don't need the ENY limitations, because you have other options. Once those options are gone, you need the limit.
I disagree the sides with numbers will tag team the low side. This is just human nature, path of least resistance and all.
At the very least perk rides should be unavailable.
Bronk
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Needle in a haystack. If there's nobody on the map, there's not going to be any real action, anyways.
You have to wait until there's actually enemies meeting enemies before you kick ENY in, otherwise the folks just joyriding around the country side will be porked over.
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Tell me then whats the diff joy riding in a 51D or a 51B ?
Or milk running in a Ju88 opposed to a B-24?
Kick it in .
Bronk
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You could argue it either way. The ENY is to prevent a the horde from steamrolling one side (or in some cases 2 sides) by sheer volume of players. Well 4 vs 1 might be a gang bang but it's not a horde, and they're surely not going to take over the entire map by themselves. It's a much smaller threat to the arena than 200 players are.
I tend to lean toward only kicking in ENY when there's a threat to the balance of the arena, not so much the individual engagements. Heck I get ganged by 5+ cons even when teams are even.
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Krusty IMHO maps are not "Won" during US prime time. They are merely reset.
The day time mini horde is what wins it. They take a bunch of bases that set up the prime time fights.
Low uneven numbers during the day need to be addressed.
Bronk
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Keep in mind that HT's goal for ENY is the one that matters. ENY was a response to persistant side imbalance that hindered game play. When players complained aboiut the restrictions limiting them, his answer was simple -- switch sides.
The problem now is the same....but at the low end rather than the high end of the numbers scale. And, its different in that for non-prime time players, the pressure tends to move them AWAY from the low side instead of towards it.
Applying the raw ENY formula in low number situations was clearly a bad thing, and we shouldnt think about trying that again. At the same time, the current correction factor seems ineffective, and has the unintended effect of driving people to leave the low team, instead of giving incentive to better balance them.
I guess I'm thinking that it would help to make ENY present earlier -- but that when total numbers are low it would BOTH take a bigger imbalance to trigger, and that when triggered the effect would be less restrictive, than what the regular ENY produces.
Currently, huge imbalances have absolutely no handicap when the total numbers are low....and there ought to be a LITTLE impact when huge imbalances are present.
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I have created two threads about this over the past year, and HiTech has not commented on either one. Bottom line is Knights have been heavely outnumbered in the USA early mornings for over a year now, and sometimes it is ridiculous proportions like:
40 Rook
50 Bish
15 Knights
Like others had commented when this happens it is only natural for rooks and bish to gang bang the knights because they are easy pray so knights with the low numbers are fighting a two front war and rooks and bish are only fighting a one front war.
HiTech I Know you tried it in the past , and for some reason you felt that it was not working, but please lower the total arena ENY limiter rule from 200 down to around 75. It has really sucked being a Knight for the past year when you do most of your flying in the USA early mornings!!!!
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I hope this request is viewed differently, because I'm not asking for pressure enough to make the sides even out, and I DONT think that the current ENY rules should extend below 200.
It seems to me that a calculation that kicks in with 75 players on and a 2:1 advantage, resulting in an ENY restriction of 10 could only help the game be more fun for all involved. And, I cant think of a gameplay downside...how could anyone complain about a restriction that soft and gentle?
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I think here is where we disagree. We need stricter ENY limits, not softer. They're too soft as-is!
I've seen huge HUGE numbers on one team, and piddly on another. The huge team was barely docked 5 ENY points. It doesn't limit them at all under 99% of all circumstances.
I also think we need to up the ENY of bombers. They're a real menace, to fighters and to targets, and yet almost all of them are 30ENY. I'd like to see the B24 be raised to 15, the B17 and B26 to 20, Lanc to 25, and Ki67/Ju88/A20 remain at 30. Ar234 should be 5 and be the first to be disabled with ENY limitations, just like the 262.
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Originally posted by Simaril
[ about because with low numbers the high side would get severe penalties for relatively small numerical advantages. But I think that turning ENY off completely may ahve gone too far...especially since the side imbalances have seemed far more stable this year, with very little trading of the top and bottom spots.
Wow when did they turn the ENY off? :eek:
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Eny is off when total arena population goes under 200.
It's that way for a good reason -- when the sides are 60/40/40 on a big map, the penalty would be the same as the VERY different situation with 180/120/120. The excess 20 players in the first situation have much, much less impact than the excess 60 horde at night....and so as experience has shown current ENY rules with low numbers online just dont work.
The thread is asking for a very soft ENY penalty down low, so that you dont end up with 60/30/15, and the 60 attacking the 15 in La7s, Niks, and Ponies. That just adds insult to injury....make 'em ride B-ponies, Doras, and hogs!
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Originally posted by Krusty
I also think we need to up the ENY of bombers. They're a real menace, to fighters and to targets, and yet almost all of them are 30ENY. I'd like to see the B24 be raised to 15, the B17 and B26 to 20, Lanc to 25, and Ki67/Ju88/A20 remain at 30. Ar234 should be 5 and be the first to be disabled with ENY limitations, just like the 262.
Umm . . . You must not fly any bomber but Lancs . . .
B-24, B-26, KI-67 are all 20
B-17 is 15
Ar234 is 5
JU88 and Boston (A20) are 40.
But you are correct. Lancs are 30.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I think here is where we disagree. We need stricter ENY limits, not softer. They're too soft as-is!
I've seen huge HUGE numbers on one team, and piddly on another. The huge team was barely docked 5 ENY points. It doesn't limit them at all under 99% of all circumstances.
I also think we need to up the ENY of bombers. They're a real menace, to fighters and to targets, and yet almost all of them are 30ENY. I'd like to see the B24 be raised to 15, the B17 and B26 to 20, Lanc to 25, and Ki67/Ju88/A20 remain at 30. Ar234 should be 5 and be the first to be disabled with ENY limitations, just like the 262.
LOL yeah yeah I would like the B-17 to be at 20 rather than the 15 it is now lol
I couldn't up one yesterday for a bit, not that I mind being limited. Also I think the reason the 17 has an eny of 15 and the 24 an eny of 20 is that the 24 will get torn to shreds and cach fire while the 17 can keep flying on it's way while taking much more damage.... Being able to take more bombs don't mean squat if they never get there. :)
Though I would like to see ENY limits get tightened back down a bit... I personally loved it when HT first put it in there was much more variation in fighters flying around the sky back then. But then again I like flying FM-2's and KI-61's so it never hits me that hard. :D
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Oh what fun, another morning of knights being out numbered:
65 Bish
63 Rook
32 Knights
and no ENY to be seen anywhere in sight, SIGH!!!!!! :cry :cry :cry
Tired of being jumped in MA by three P51 D's every where I go so figured I would come to the forum and cry about it, definetely more fun then getting constantly gang banged by high ENY planes every morning.
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C'Mon HiTech, Take a look at the server stats for the past year and verify that the knights are always in this situation 90% of the USA mornings.
Please lower the activation for the MA ENY penalty from 200 down to 100 players, I am begging you!!!!! :cry :cry :cry
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Originally posted by Krusty
Straffo doing it by sector doesn't matter, because usually the horde is scattered along 2 fronts and across many many sectors, but still just as effective.
Well it should be very difficult to capture a field with a mix of 109E4 and spitI :)
Especially if the defender can up late war monster ;)
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E25280: I've not checked the ENY in a while. Last I checked they were all almost the same, but this was some time ago. All I know is that I can kill half a dozen of them in any half-way decent plane and only get 0.8 perkies (which is stupid -- these things are HARD to kill because they're running at 350mph all the time!!).
Kind of dumb that the B17 is higher than the B24, eh? If not the other way around, they should at least be equal.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Kind of dumb that the B17 is higher than the B24, eh? If not the other way around, they should at least be equal.
Like Flayed1 said:
Originally posted by Flayed1
Also I think the reason the 17 has an eny of 15 and the 24 an eny of 20 is that the 24 will get torn to shreds and cach fire while the 17 can keep flying on it's way while taking much more damage
That is, ENY is a measure of their air-to-air value. There is a separate category "OBJ" that measures a planes effectiveness vs. ground objects. In this measure, Lancs and B-24s are 10s, the B-17 is 15 (smaller bombload), B-26 is 20, etc. So, take out a ground object with a Lanc, get less bomber perks than if you take out the same object in a B-17, Ju-88 (OBJ of 25) or even an Ar234 (OBJ of 15).
(Sheesh, did I just qualify for AH geekdom??? :huh )
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Things seem a little worse than when I first posted...to the point that some are giving up and going to the DA to find fights.
Thats great (and I plan on doing it too) but it means that there are even fewer flying the low side. And for every vet that goes to DA, how many less experienced folks switch or leave?
Please reconsider, HT. When people complained about ENY, you responded with "if you dont like it, just switch sides." Trouble is, switching sides makes THIS problem worse.