Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Scenario General => Topic started by: culero on August 23, 2006, 05:14:01 PM
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This is in response to Brooke's BoB CO recruitment, I just didn't want to hijack the purpose of his thread.
I'm shocked to see a veteran of scenario experience like Brooke proposing the time schedule for BoB when COs haven't even been found. Trying to cram this process, registration, formation of team structures, testing of arena settings, practices, etc all into 30 days is, all due respect intended, lunacy.
The same thing was IMO the major factor resulting in Japan becoming the debacle it in the end was. Scenarios are team events, and teams need time to organize. CO recruitment needs to happen before registration, and registration needs to be complete a month before the first frame in order to allow proper preparation.
I've worked with ROC in the past enough to know he knows better (or should) and I know Brooke has more experience than ROC and I combined. Guys, wake up and smell the coffee, the course you're setting leads directly to rocky shoals.
culero
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Originally posted by culero
This is in response to Brooke's BoB CO recruitment, I just didn't want to hijack the purpose of his thread.
I'm shocked to see a veteran of scenario experience like Brooke proposing the time schedule for BoB when COs haven't even been found. Trying to cram this process, registration, formation of team structures, testing of arena settings, practices, etc all into 30 days is, all due respect intended, lunacy.
The same thing was IMO the major factor resulting in Japan becoming the debacle it in the end was. Scenarios are team events, and teams need time to organize. CO recruitment needs to happen before registration, and registration needs to be complete a month before the first frame in order to allow proper preparation.
I've worked with ROC in the past enough to know he knows better (or should) and I know Brooke has more experience than ROC and I combined. Guys, wake up and smell the coffee, the course you're setting leads directly to rocky shoals.
culero
Oh ye of little faith.
Proposing a *tentative* time schedule is fine and is how it should go, so that people can at least plan a little and get moving on things. Sticking to it if things don't happen in time is a problem, and that's not what I have ever suggested. Keep in mind:
1. "The dates and times of this four-frame scenario are not yet finalized. This scenario is tentatively scheduled for Saturdays, September 23, September 30, October 7, and October 14 . . ."
2. This is a stock design that ran fine before, and we are running it again without modificiation. Thus, no lengthy shakedown is needed (as otherwise must be allotted for with a new design), and there will be plenty of participants who played in BoB 2004. It should be quite possible for a competent CO to formulate his frame 1 strategy in less than a month. You or I would have no problem formulating frame 1 orders in a week.
3. This scenario doesn't have any unusual things to practice -- it's standard air combat and bombing runs, which people are used to. It should take a lot less preparation.
4. We want to run Pearl Harbor next, so we can't indefinitely delay BoB. We're running BoB to fit in between (if there is enough interest).
So, given the above, here's the estimated/sought-after timeline:
Sept. 3: finish getting both CO's, open registration.
Sept. 16: beta frame, close registration
Sept. 23: frame 1
If we're a week late in signing up CO's, we can move the schedule forward a week. If no CO's step up even one week after Sept. 3rd (i.e., no one steps up even after 3 weeks), then we should skip BoB 2006 due to lack of command interest and because there is not enough time to run it before Pearl Harbour.
Every scenario should have at least a tentative timeline and plan, with time alotted for the various necessary tasks and with enough flexibility to adjust it within reason. If it's a new design, it needs a lot more time. If it's a straightforward stock design, it needs much less. If it's a scenario without something else desired after it, then it can be indefinitely delayed until CO's are found, then the schedule can march on as planned from that point on, or delayed further if there is some problem or things don't go as quickly as planned. If it's a scenario that is meant to run in between, like this one, there is only so much delay that can be accomodated. Beyond that, it needs to be cancelled.
I hope this information causes you to be unshocked.
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i dont see why a scenario cant be organised in 30 days...
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I actually put the guys on a pretty tight rope, as there was talk of a pretty significant rework of the terrain. I had requested that the map improvements were to be Minimal, so that no major changes to the event would occur. These guys would probably tell you that I was fairly adamant that this event be Off the Shelf so that the conditions you describe didn't occur. The point made was actually Simple and Off the shelf, or it doesn't run at all. I didn't want the event crammed into a short time period of testing, double checking, and trial and error. My goal was, from the onset, to use an Existing Map, tried and Known, with a ruleset that has been used before.
This was intended as a Filler to run while Pearl was being designed. The deadlines to get the Map Complete and COs in place are pretty strict, leaving about a month to Plan and Recruit for an event that is 100% done by the time the COs are signed.
This event has been ran before. The arena has been tested, the OOB has been used, there are some minor changes that are Specific to Spawn Points and won't change the map.
You might not have been aware of that discussion prior to the announcement of the event though.
The points raised by culero are exactly why I started, and pushed for, working on Pearl Harbor as early as I did, as a side note.
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My suggested timeline for a September 23rd Frame 1:
CO recruitment done by July 23rd
Registration done by August 23rd
Arena setup beta test/dress rehearsal practice September 7
Arena open for practice as much as possible September 8-22
You're IMO starting WAY too late, or pushing WAY too fast.
culero
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Originally posted by Brooke
Oh ye of little faith.
~snip~
I hope this information causes you to be unshocked.
LOL Brooke :)
I understand your logic as stated, I just disagree on a fundamental level. Even for a "standard" scenario design, its my strong opinion that a month is desirable as a time period for team building.
culero
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Culero, you are missing the entire point of the event to begin with.
There is Nothing Scheduled until Pearl Harbor. This was an off the shelf event so that people had something to play in the meantime. Simple, uncomplicated, not a steep learning curve or brand new map to figure out. Those that want to, will, those that don't wont.
Nothing is being forced or pushed. There were 2 options, run in this time slot as an infill event or run nothing until Pearl. I've got guys that Want to run scenarios, and people that Want to join them, some say a month is enough, others say it's not enough. Going to run it for those who want it, it's what we do, nothing forced, nothing mandated.
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BoB was fine last time, just dont give us the noughty fog again where you could not see a wingman anymore.
Just please organise the pickup of downed pilots better, last time i had to wait 30 mins till a CM showed up and verrified that im rescued.
Evrything else was fine... just with the rescue verification a better system is needed.
cu schutt
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Originally posted by Schutt
BoB was fine last time, just dont give us the noughty fog again where you could not see a wingman anymore.
Just please organise the pickup of downed pilots better, last time i had to wait 30 mins till a CM showed up and verrified that im rescued.
Evrything else was fine... just with the rescue verification a better system is needed.
cu schutt
Schutt! One of my fine Spitfire pilots from the last BoB scenario! You gonna register Allied again? :D
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Nifty glad you remember me i had a lot of fun in that scenario.
I dont know yet for what side i will fly... maybe i ll try a 109 this time.
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Originally posted by culero
My suggested timeline for a September 23rd Frame 1:
CO recruitment done by July 23rd
Registration done by August 23rd
Arena setup beta test/dress rehearsal practice September 7
Arena open for practice as much as possible September 8-22
You're IMO starting WAY too late, or pushing WAY too fast.
culero
By that measure, this one is an experiment in people -- for "off the shelf" scenario designs, not new designs -- getting on with it more quickly. If this doesn't work, then we'll keep the longer timetables and run only two scenarios per year as we have been doing instead of, say, 4 per year, which I'd like to see.
In Air Warrior, there were years where we were able to get out 4 or more scenarios per year. We did it then, and it should be possible now.
For example, 1995 and 1998 were like this:
Saga of the 5th Air Force (August, 1995)
Battle of Germany 2 (July, 1995)
Kursk 3 (May, 1995)
Munda Weekend (February, 1995)
Kursk 4 (December, 1998)
Afrika, '42 (September, 1998)
Guadalcanal (July, 1998)
Target Germany (June, 1998)
Fortress Rabaul v2 (January, 1998)
What made it possible was quicker timetables for scenarios that weren't completely new designs (such as Fortress Rabaul, Kursk, and Battle of Germany).
One of the things that helped in the AW days, though, were people who would quickly step up for what is needed, such as CO positions. We'll see how it goes.
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Originally posted by Schutt
BoB was fine last time, just dont give us the noughty fog again where you could not see a wingman anymore.
Just please organise the pickup of downed pilots better, last time i had to wait 30 mins till a CM showed up and verrified that im rescued.
Evrything else was fine... just with the rescue verification a better system is needed.
cu schutt
Thats what were working on , More pt spawns in the "Dead zones" along with instant return to tower after CM/rescue verification .
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Does that mean the map has been updated with more PT spawns? Will there be a new map DL?
P.S. roo, did you get my PM?
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Originally posted by Krusty
Does that mean the map has been updated with more PT spawns? Will there be a new map DL?
P.S. roo, did you get my PM?
yes there will be an updated map ..
and
No ,, is my pm box maxed again ??? I'll go clean it out (for the 100th time in 2 months )
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Do we have an ETA on the map? Much as I loved Karelia, it got old having to re-download the "final" version 5 times :lol
EDIT: I didn't get a "box is full" error or anything that I recall.
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Originally posted by Brooke
By that measure, this one is an experiment in people -- for "off the shelf" scenario designs, not new designs -- getting on with it more quickly. If this doesn't work, then we'll keep the longer timetables and run only two scenarios per year as we have been doing instead of, say, 4 per year, which I'd like to see.
In Air Warrior, there were years where we were able to get out 4 or more scenarios per year. We did it then, and it should be possible now.
For example, 1995 and 1998 were like this:
Saga of the 5th Air Force (August, 1995)
Battle of Germany 2 (July, 1995)
Kursk 3 (May, 1995)
Munda Weekend (February, 1995)
Kursk 4 (December, 1998)
Afrika, '42 (September, 1998)
Guadalcanal (July, 1998)
Target Germany (June, 1998)
Fortress Rabaul v2 (January, 1998)
What made it possible was quicker timetables for scenarios that weren't completely new designs (such as Fortress Rabaul, Kursk, and Battle of Germany).
One of the things that helped in the AW days, though, were people who would quickly step up for what is needed, such as CO positions. We'll see how it goes.
Brooke, scheduling more or less events per year depends merely on planning. Various parts of the process can overlap in order to allow more events in a given time span. Its all about intelligent planning. What I see going on here is sloppy time management, if indeed the grand plan is to stage more events per year.
There's no good reason that CO recruitment for BoB could have not taken place long ago. If that had happened, the BoB schedule could have been announced immediately after Japan finished, and registration begun then. We thus could have had teams formed already for the most part, and been able to have time for those teams to develop detailed plans, practice them, and in general prepared much more thoroughly for a late September event.
Instead, even though it apparently has been the plan all along to stage an event at this time, what should be a careful process is being rushed. I see no good reason that preparation could not have begun sooner, while other events were running. When we ran multiple events at Air Warrior, we did so by having more than one event in the pipeline at one time.
The example you provide of year 1998 illustrates my point. I don't recall any of those events having less than four weeks between registration and first frame. There's simply no need to deprive teams of sufficient opportunity to become organized in order to have several events in a year.
culero
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Originally posted by ROC
Culero, you are missing the entire point of the event to begin with.
There is Nothing Scheduled until Pearl Harbor. This was an off the shelf event so that people had something to play in the meantime. Simple, uncomplicated, not a steep learning curve or brand new map to figure out. Those that want to, will, those that don't wont.
Nothing is being forced or pushed. There were 2 options, run in this time slot as an infill event or run nothing until Pearl. I've got guys that Want to run scenarios, and people that Want to join them, some say a month is enough, others say it's not enough. Going to run it for those who want it, it's what we do, nothing forced, nothing mandated.
I'm missing the point? LOL! Did you fail to learn anything from the disaster you ran with this last event? Was it not apparent that there was far too little time spent in preparation?
This has nothing to do with event design. Its about team formation and organization. Yes, a "canned" event needs less time from the developer's end, but teams still need time to form internally and get it together. Its why professional sports have a preseason each year, even though the design of the games is already a known factor.
I'm really beginning to wonder if you are in fact competent to perform the job you've set out to do. So far, you're not showing me much.
culero
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Did you fail to learn anything from the disaster you ran with this last event? Was it not apparent that there was far too little time spent in preparation?
Knock it off culero. This coming from you who balked when I wanted pearl worked on earlier than YOU wanted.
You know as well as I do that "preperation" lapses may have occured on several fronts, get over yourself please.
I'm not going to argue with you over this, I've said this already, this event is for those who Want to participate, clearly you don't. If You have an issue with the schedule feel free to avoid the event. I, and this team, are putting an event together for those who Want it. I fail to see how this could possibly be an issue with you. What, is it just that it's not Your way? Tell you what, contact HT and tell them your thoughts on my incompetance, at their request I'll gladly remove myself from the team.
Clearly this event doesn't interest you due to the time line. Great, I get it, move on. Those that Are interested might want to invest their time putting it together, I know I do.
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I'll knock it off when I please. Last time I checked this is an open forum.
You're wrong that I'm not interested in the event. I'm interested enough to point out what are glaring faults in its management because I'd like to see a quality event for all involved.
As to Pearl, its you who balked, not I.
culero
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If the scenario planners can't talk civil to one another, the whole process is doomed.
Cut the crap guys, we are all after the same thing; strong player turn out at scenarios and good fun had by all.
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Point of order, Del - I'm not a "scenario planner". I'm merely a player trying to give some useful input.
culero
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Originally posted by culero
Point of order, Del - I'm not a "scenario planner". I'm merely a player trying to give some useful input.
culero
were ???? All i see is negative here :(
(positive/suggestive input gets more accomplished then negative)
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lol let it go Roo, let it go :D
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OK time out, go afk, have a drink or thirty, relax spark up, sit in a comfy chair with a nice view and a cool breeze and take your mind off things.
And realize that the cure for all your worries lies here......................... ............................. ...
(http://www.strangepersons.com/images/content/14676.JPG)
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Originally posted by culero
There's no good reason that CO recruitment for BoB could have not taken place long ago. If that had happened, the BoB schedule could have been announced immediately after Japan finished, and registration begun then.
Operation Downfall was to have frame 4 on Aug. 19th. CO recruitment for BoB 2006 began on Aug. 18th. The reason I didn't recommend registration opening at that same time is in case we didn't get two CO's and had to cancel. Upon getting two CO's, the plan is to open registration.
We thus could have had teams formed already for the most part, and been able to have time for those teams to develop detailed plans, practice them, and in general prepared much more thoroughly for a late September event.
I think that there is plenty of time to formulate plans. There isn't need for extensive practice because this scenario doesn't have elements that are unfamiliar to players. Still, there is time for practice -- just not time for a month of practice.
When we ran multiple events at Air Warrior, we did so by having more than one event in the pipeline at one time.
Things were overlapped here, too -- just not as much as you think is best. The main point is that you think there should be more time between CO's, registration, and frame 1. I respect that opinion and wholeheartedly believe in lots of time for new scenarios, but I feel that our current schedule will work fine for this one.
The example you provide of year 1998 illustrates my point. I don't recall any of those events having less than four weeks between registration and first frame. [/B]
I looked through my old e-mails and archived GEnie topics to see if I could estimate what they were. They seem to have varied quite a bit. Here are estimated times between registration and frame 1.
Saga of the 5th Air Force: 3 weeks
Battle of Germany 2: 2-3 weeks
Kursk 3: 1 month
Munda Weekend: 3 weeks
Kursk 4: more than 1 month
Afrika, '42: 4 weeks
Guadalcanal: can't tell
Target Germany: can't tell
Fortress Rabaul v2: 2 weeks
At any rate, I note your feeling that there should be more time alotted, and I understand that you make this point because you want scenarios to work well, as do I. My feeling is that in special circumstances (such as for already run scenario designs with elements that are familiar to pilots), a faster schedule will be acceptable. If I'm wrong, I'll learn from that, and you can say, "I told you so." If it works, then that is useful information as well.
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Originally posted by Brooke
snip
At any rate, I note your feeling that there should be more time alotted, and I understand that you make this point because you want scenarios to work well, as do I. My feeling is that in special circumstances (such as for already run scenario designs with elements that are familiar to pilots), a faster schedule will be acceptable. If I'm wrong, I'll learn from that, and you can say, "I told you so." If it works, then that is useful information as well.
No, I won't gloat in that case. As you said, this is offered as helpful input. I actually hope for the best, just as you do.
~S~
culero
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Rules for bob are straight down the middle. And guess where they are Axis as going frame 1-4 the rules dictate the exact strat. Its hey didledil the axis are going down the middle. Its a striaght foward set of 4 bombing runs only question is how good raf fighter controllers are.
Valkyrie
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I remember the first time BoB was run in AH.. I think '02.. I posted on the BB after the first frame flaming the whole thing! I was P.O.'d that my plane was shot down by tail guns in a Ju88.
As a walk-on, I ended up being a defacto GL for RAF 610 in frame 4 when Greyarea was shot down, and we did what we could.
Scenarios offer the chance for ANY pilot to step up and prove they have the meddle to actually fly as a group and take, or give orders.
THAT, is what Scenarios are about!
I'm looking forward to BoB in a big way :) The Scenario Team is going to make it happen for the AH community!
That's our job :aok
SALUTE!
Newman
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Culero has obviously never worked in software develoment :D
Saw (dev-born to be late)