Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: 1K3 on August 24, 2006, 12:19:41 AM
-
Bush shows pessimism on Iraq
President shifts tone as he makes case for U.S. policy
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14473431/
Every American, everyone in the world already told Boosh that Invading Iraq is a bad Idea from the start. I guess his admin has not read the history of England's fiasco of trying to police Iraq in the first quarter of 20th century...
-
Originally posted by 1K3
Everyone American, everyone in the world already told Boosh that Invading Iraq is a bad Idea from the start. I guess his admin has not read the history of England's fiasco of trying to police Iraq in the first quarter of 20th century...
the terrorists love people like you, in fact they need people like you to win.
-
Originally posted by 1K3
Every American, everyone in the world already told Boosh that Invading Iraq is a bad Idea from the start.
These Senators did not say that in 2002...
Allard (R-CO)
Allen (R-VA)
Baucus (D-MT)
Bayh (D-IN)
Bennett (R-UT)
Biden (D-DE)
Bond (R-MO)
Breaux (D-LA)
Brownback (R-KS)
Bunning (R-KY)
Burns (R-MT)
Campbell (R-CO)
Cantwell (D-WA)
Carnahan (D-MO)
Carper (D-DE)
Cleland (D-GA)
Clinton (D-NY)
Cochran (R-MS)
Collins (R-ME)
Craig (R-ID)
Crapo (R-ID)
Daschle (D-SD)
DeWine (R-OH)
Dodd (D-CT)
Domenici (R-NM)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Edwards (D-NC)
Ensign (R-NV)
Enzi (R-WY)
Feinstein (D-CA)
Fitzgerald (R-IL)
Frist (R-TN)
Gramm (R-TX)
Grassley (R-IA)
Gregg (R-NH)
Hagel (R-NE)
Harkin (D-IA)
Hatch (R-UT)
Helms (R-NC)
Hollings (D-SC)
Hutchinson (R-AR)
Hutchison (R-TX)
Inhofe (R-OK)
Johnson (D-SD)
Kerry (D-MA)
Kohl (D-WI)
Kyl (R-AZ)
Landrieu (D-LA)
Lieberman (D-CT)
Lincoln (D-AR)
Lott (R-MS)
Lugar (R-IN)
McCain (R-AZ)
McConnell (R-KY)
Miller (D-GA)
Murkowski (R-AK)
Nelson (D-FL)
Nelson (D-NE)
Nickles (R-OK)
Reid (D-NV)
Roberts (R-KS)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Santorum (R-PA)
Schumer (D-NY)
Sessions (R-AL)
Shelby (R-AL)
Smith (R-NH)
Smith (R-OR)
Snowe (R-ME)
Specter (R-PA)
Stevens (R-AK)
Thomas (R-WY)
Thompson (R-TN)
Thurmond (R-SC)
Torricelli (D-NJ)
Voinovich (R-OH)
Warner (R-VA)
-
GW created more terrorists than he destroyed. fact.
look at what hisbollah HisBolloCks is doing : handing over wads of cash to people : now that's an idea : buy them all fridges 'n SUVs and tivo and see if they're still willing to blow themselves up...
Cheaper to buy them off in the long run. not so profitable for halliburton maybe...
-
Our military needs to get better at counter-insurgency.
In reality, what does the average grunt know about counter-insurgency? 99% of the soldiers can't speak arabic, how are they going to build relationships and communicate with the locals?
The best book I've read on counter-insurgency is one called "Lost in translation". You have to have the support of the local population, they are the ones who tell you when movements are going on, where booby-traps and IEDs are, and other vital information. But if the local pop is afraid, if they suffer retaliation because they give you intel, then you have lost.
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
These Senators did not say that in 2002...
Of course because they were given fabricated intelligence report and they all nod unease
-
Originally posted by 1K3
Of course because they were given fabricated intelligence report and they all nod unease
Either GWB is a machevellian mastermind or a dumbs***... you can't have it both ways.
-
Arabic btw is complex. Like the English language, every Arab country has its own dialect. Iran is the only exception, they use Farsi.
-
Originally posted by Spooky
GW created more terrorists than he destroyed. fact.
look at what hisbollah HisBolloCks is doing : handing over wads of cash to people : now that's an idea : buy them all fridges 'n SUVs and tivo and see if they're still willing to blow themselves up...
Cheaper to buy them off in the long run. not so profitable for halliburton maybe...
LOL GWB created more terrorist is a fact huh?
Were'nt the majority of the young men that ran amuck in the Paris riots of middle eastern decent? I'm sure they have refrigeraters, and tivo.
How'd that work out?
Maybe you should just offer them the rest of your country. Oh yeah, don't forget to get on your knees and tilt your head back. Why fight the beheading.
-
Invading Iraq was not the big mistake the detractors of GWB want to beleive it was. Dubya's mistakes were all made after the "war" (war being a conflict between two armies) was over, the mistakes were all made during the "peace" (peace being the period after one of the armies is vanquished). The US Military is not a police force and should not be used in peacekeeping actions, I thought we'd learned that lesson last century. Their job is to kill their enemies and blow watermelon up, not patrol city streets and search homes for contraband.
I can almost agree with the "there's more terrorists now than there were before" concept that so many lefties espouse. The problem I have with that argument is twofold:
1.) I do not beleive that a person straps on a bomb-belt who was once a peaceloving civilian. People with that mindset were not made that way by the POTUS or his foreign policy.
2.) We've only killed tens of thousands of them, we've got about a million more to go. Then one can truly say there are fewer than when we started. Which of course points back to the first paragraph. We do not seem willing to pay any price or even use all the tools we have to actually WIN this thing, too worried about PC or PR.
Get our boys out if you wont let them win I say.
-
Originally posted by Spooky
GW created more terrorists than he destroyed. fact
Bush didn't create more terrorists he just showed them to the world. They were infesting countries for years but no one wanted offend them by pointing them out.
9/11 changed that and Bush started pointing them out to the horror of all those countries that would rather ignore them and hope they never attacked them.
Originally posted by Spooky
Cheaper to buy them off in the long run. not so profitable for halliburton maybe...
Cheaper? Paying off people only makes them want more. Look at North Korea.
They were paid off by Clinton so they wouldn't build nukes and guess what? They did it anyway and are now looking for more handouts.
Iran is trying to get nukes so they can demand more like NK.
Paying off only works for the short term at best.
-
^^^I like this Mightytboy^^^
could not have stated it better myself
-
Originally posted by 1K3
Of course because they were given fabricated intelligence report and they all nod unease
so you arre saying that Clinton was being given fabricated intel reports too??
You must be. Because the same people were giving the same intel to Clinton.
That was also giving the same intel to Bush and the senators.
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.
"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs" ." Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.
"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destrution and palaces for his cronies."
Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999.
Bush did a pretty neat trick. Managing to fabricate intel reports BEFORE he was ever elected.
Not bad for an idiot
-
Originally posted by Spooky
GW created more terrorists than he destroyed. fact.
you mean "opinion"
Lets see your sources to prove this so called "fact"
-
Originally posted by Mightytboy
Bush didn't create more terrorists he just showed them to the world. They were infesting countries for years but no one wanted offend them by pointing them out.
9/11 changed that and Bush started pointing them out to the horror of all those countries that would rather ignore them and hope they never attacked them.
Cheaper? Paying off people only makes them want more. Look at North Korea.
They were paid off by Clinton so they wouldn't build nukes and guess what? They did it anyway and are now looking for more handouts.
Iran is trying to get nukes so they can demand more like NK.
Paying off only works for the short term at best.
Well said
-
I kinda like the fact that the world is seeing the terrorists for what they are and...
That they are all showing up in iraq and lining up to be martyrs.
Some people just figure that we have to wipe em out and others feel that if we are really really nice to em.... they will leave us alone.
The envy and the hate of our civilization will just somehow go away.
lazs
-
Fight em there... ..or fight em here.
No brainer.
-
Originally posted by Mightytboy
Bush didn't create more terrorists he just showed them to the world. They were infesting countries for years but no one wanted offend them by pointing them out.
The other way around: Bush showed the rest of the world that the USA is an aggressor and therefore a threat that needs to be countered or at least be wary of. That's how they (probable terrorists) and the less friendly governments sees it.
Which again leads to the point that the amount of terrorists/rebels/freedom fighters/whatever has increased as a result of the increased threat to the middle east population.
Similar reaction occured also in the states - more people were drafted after the 911. Are you seriously claiming that a would be enemy doesn't react the same way to an increased threat?
-
Originally posted by Jackal1
Fight em there... ..or fight em here.
Agreed, but take the damn gloves off and forget what the news-anchors will say, they'll say it no matter how you prosecute the GWOT anyhow.
Can you imagine Dan Rather speaking while showing video of the aftermath of D-Day, or the dismembered children of Dresden, or the charred ones in Tokyo?
Originally posted by Fishu
much drivel edited
I'll accept that the US is an agressor nation, but we are only agressive towards those nations that support international terorist organizations. Stop funding/arming/training/exporting terrorists and all we want to do to you is sell Levis and Coca Cola to you, so that we can buy Sony and Toyota products from the Japanese or happymeal toys from the Chinese.
"Freedom fighters" and "insurgents" would be combatting the invaders/occupiers right? Then why are the blowing themselves up in marketplaces, schoolyards, and employment lines? Make no mistake; the main target of the terrorists in Iraq are the civilians in Iraq. They can win by having the populace more afraid of them than they are of us. We hand out chocolate bars they sever heads. Their will to win is obviously greater than ours and the average Iraqi on the street knows this.
There is no draft in the US, has not been for over 30 years, did you hear that on Pravda?
-
Originally posted by Fishu
Similar reaction occured also in the states - more people were drafted after the 911. Are you seriously claiming that a would be enemy doesn't react the same way to an increased threat?
We haven't had a draft.
-
Originally posted by Spooky
GW created more terrorists than he destroyed. fact.
Is pulling back a panel of sheetrock and exposing all the cockroaches that are breeding/living in the wall creating more roaches? Gimme a break!
-
Originally posted by indy007
We haven't had a draft.
Whatever you call it when people enlists. That's what I meant, but of course that didn't cross someones mind when given a chance to mock.
-
Originally posted by Edbert1
I'll accept that the US is an agressor nation, but we are only agressive towards those nations that support international terorist organizations. Stop funding/arming/training/exporting terrorists and all we want to do to you is sell Levis and Coca Cola to you, so that we can buy Sony and Toyota products from the Japanese or happymeal toys from the Chinese.
It's not quite that simple. You're thinking it simply from your point of view, with your cultural background and your way of thinking. The western way of thinking. To them we're nothing but aggressors with empty promises. Whether the terrorist, or whatever people likes to call them, right or wrong, it doesn't matter to the people, because they are part of the people down there in the middle east. There's a much bigger threat against them all - the west - which they see as a threat or an aggressor.
What has the west brought to the people in the middle east; Wealth? Jobs? Pleasure? Luxury?
The west has brought them nothing of those. Instead, on the daily news they're every day hearing about people having it bad in several different places in the middle east and all of those have one common factor: The western influence.
To them it's similar situation as the communism was for the west. It has little to do with what the west really wants, when the people down there hears nothing but bad whenever it's about the west and the middle east. We can tell them all we want about the human rights and the benefits of democracy, but we haven't done any of it, on the contrary. To them our talk of freedom etc. is same as their promises of peace etc. to us - empty words. People reacts to acts, not to words of promises one after another.
People react to these acts. Bad acts cause bad things and vice-versa. We can criticize their reactions all we wan't, but that doesn't help if we keep doing something that creates the response. Exageration and ignorance most definitely won't help with the issue. We're not going to get rid of them, so why are we trying to make our situation even worse? Let them be the fools instead. Eventually the people down there will question the support for their terrorists. That just doesn't happen if we don't question our ignorance on the results of our actions first.
-
Originally posted by Fishu
Whatever you call it when people enlists. That's what I meant, but of course that didn't cross someones mind when given a chance to mock.
Every time some troops are recalled, pundits start screaming about backdoor drafts... even though it's in the military terms of service contract.
It's only mocking if you make the choice to feel insulted. Otherwise, it's just somebody pointing out a problem with your assertion. You can either use the edit button, or sit indignantly, claim you're being insulted, and expect everybody else to be psychic and automatically know what you meant. If anything, I'm helping you with your own arguement, and it's not even something I particularly believe.
-
I am still amazed how bush was able to setup the whole 9/11 thing in under 9 months in office so that his war monger/oil baron friends would have a means to brainwash the patriots into giving him permission to invade Iraq .. amazing
-
Originally posted by slimm50
Is pulling back a panel of sheetrock and exposing all the cockroaches that are breeding/living in the wall creating more roaches? Gimme a break!
You don't even have to pull back the sheetrock, here in this country all you have to do is wait for an election year, the cockroaches all come out on their own!
-
Originally posted by Shifty
Were'nt the majority of the young men that ran amuck in the Paris riots of middle eastern decent? I'm sure they have refrigeraters, and tivo.
This is why none of them was brainwashed and desperate enough to go kamikaze : they just broke windows and stole big screen tvs to enjoy the world cup matches in HD... much easier to handle, Katrina style...
-
Originally posted by Spooky
This is why none of them was brainwashed and desperate enough to go kamikaze : they just broke windows and stole big screen tvs to enjoy the world cup matches in HD... much easier to handle, Katrina style...
Katrina style? A hurricane didn't hit France. These guys bit the hand that fed them because they felt they were not getting fed enough. Tell the family of the defensless old woman they set on fire that they just wanted to watch the world cup in HD. Your theory of giving them gifts so they'll leave you alone is a loser. FACT.:aok
-
Originally posted by Edbert1
*snipped*The US Military is not a police force and should not be used in peacekeeping actions, I thought we'd learned that lesson last century. Their job is to kill their enemies and blow watermelon up, not patrol city streets and search homes for contraband.
Get our boys out if you wont let them win I say.
My feelings exactly. The US Military is, and always should be, an instrument of death and destruction. People should see a US Soldier and think to themselves "that's Death itself walking right there. I better not mess with that."
-
Also note that while US is in a muck right now China is on a "Peacefull Rise". The Chinese are making friends with countries that western powers see as threat. Their influence is spreading in Latin America and Africa:noid
-
Originally posted by slimm50
Is pulling back a panel of sheetrock and exposing all the cockroaches that are breeding/living in the wall creating more roaches? Gimme a break!
You actually believe that the U.S. has not created thousands of enemies since the invasion of Iraq that otherwise would have gone through life not lifting a finger against us?
The regular people of Iraq look at their current situation and ask themselves, am I better of now or was I better off before the western soldiers came to my country? Invariably the answer is they are far worse off now and have much more to worry about than before the invasion. The young men look around and grow angry and desperate and look for someone to blame. This allows the poisonous words of the radical clerics to infect their souls and before you know it, they are ready to strap on a bomb suit and blow them selves up for the glory of Allah.
Then there are the fellow Moslems in surrounding nations that look upon the Iraq war as the west trying to take over the Middle East one country at a time and then their young men and women flock to Iraq to help defend their brothers.
Make no mistake my friend, the world is a far more dangerous place now than it was before the Iraq war.
-
Originally posted by ChickenHawk
The regular people of Iraq look at their current situation and ask themselves, am I better of now or was I better off before the western soldiers came to my country? Invariably the answer is they are far worse off now and have much more to worry about than before the invasion.
Make no mistake my friend, the world is a far more dangerous place now than it was before the Iraq war.
you are wrong in so many ways, i feel sorry for you.
-
Originally posted by ChickenHawk
Make no mistake my friend, the world is a far more dangerous place now than it was before the Iraq war.
Oh you're so right. They were so loving and peaceful before mean old George invaded Iraq. I mean really , all of this is his fault.Get a grip.
:huh
Terrorist Attacks
(within the United States or against Americans before Iraq invasion
1920
Sept. 16, New York City: TNT bomb planted in unattended horse-drawn wagon exploded on Wall Street opposite House of Morgan, killing 35 people and injuring hundreds more. Bolshevist or anarchist terrorists believed responsible, but crime never solved.
1975
Jan. 24, New York City: bomb set off in historic Fraunces Tavern killed 4 and injured more than 50 people. Puerto Rican nationalist group (FALN) claimed responsibility, and police tied 13 other bombings to the group.
1979
Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.
1982–1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.
1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: *****e suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 Marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait *****e truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.
1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.
1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.
1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.
1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.
1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.
1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.
1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.
1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.
2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.
2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed.
-
ChickenHawk, much of that makes sense if all the violence in Iraq were directed at the coalition forces. But the fact is that the vast majority of the bombs are targetting those you refer to as their brothers. How can they be blowing each other to smithereens out of their fears of our agression.
What we are seeing is a struggle for supremacy in the region. Mostly chiite versus sunni, they are contesting with one another for control over the cash that will come from their oil.
Now I understand that for the average Iraqi, Iraq is a more dangerous place to live than it was under Sadaam, he was able to curtail most of the crime and there were no roits in the streets. More dangerous now unless of course you are one of the millions who dies in the gas attacks or torture chambers.
-
Originally posted by Shifty
Oh you're so right. They were so loving and peaceful before mean old George invaded Iraq. I mean really , all of this is his fault.Get a grip.
Hmmmm, I don't recall saying any of that. I never said they were peaceful, nor did I lay all the blame at Bush's feet.
All I said was that the ranks of those willing to do violence against western citizens has grown and continues to grow at a much faster pace since the Iraq war. And I stand by that statement.
-
Originally posted by Edbert1
ChickenHawk, much of that makes sense if all the violence in Iraq were directed at the coalition forces. But the fact is that the vast majority of the bombs are targetting those you refer to as their brothers. How can they be blowing each other to smithereens out of their fears of our agression.
What we are seeing is a struggle for supremacy in the region. Mostly chiite versus sunni, they are contesting with one another for control over the cash that will come from their oil.
You are right of course. I should not have grouped all the Moslems together. The three main ethnic groups in Iraq hate each other and are currently in a power struggle for control of the oil and as much real estate as they can get their hands on.
Aside from that, we still are their enemy and the number of those wishing to do us harm grows by the day. As soon as one group gets on top of the dog pile, they will come looking for us a little closer to home.
-
Islam is at war with itself. Lets hope it loses. And indeed lets help Islam defeat itself. To that extent I think the mission in Iraq might be successful yet.
Has Bush undergone a lobotomy? the guy cant talk himself out of a paper sack lately :mad:
-
Originally posted by Yeager
Islam is at war with itself. Lets hope it loses. And indeed lets help Islam defeat itself. To that extent I think the mission in Iraq might be successful yet.
Has Bush undergone a lobotomy? the guy cant talk himself out of a paper sack lately :mad:
Regarding the first part of this...Iran's leadership is poised on a powder keg. Roughly 50% of their population is Chiite and or Persian, the rest is a mix of other ethnic groups among whom are Kurds and Turks (more Kurds live in Iran than Iraq). Even among the Chiite/Persian group over 50% of them are under 35 years of age, and they generally hate the Imams and Ayatollahs. What we should be doing is fostering a civil war in Iran just like they are doing in Iraq.
Regarding the latter...when was he ever able to make a coherent sentence? Even when he's reading a speech he can barely speak. The one and only time he ever did well at using his own words was on the streets of NYC after 9-11, IMO of course.
-
Originally posted by ChickenHawk
All I said was that the ranks of those willing to do violence against western citizens has grown and continues to grow at a much faster pace since the Iraq war. And I stand by that statement.
Where is the tool you measure this faster pace with? What are you basing it on? The middle east has been a violent place for most of the 20th and all of the 21st century. There's never been a shortage of people willing to do violence against others anywhere on earth.
Americans kill more Americans then any other group. Just look in the news paper. LA, New York, Washington, Houston, they are all quagmires.
-
Originally posted by Spooky
This is why none of them was brainwashed and desperate enough to go kamikaze : they just broke windows and stole big screen tvs to enjoy the world cup matches in HD... much easier to handle, Katrina style...
And toasted marshmellows on a Peugeot.
-
Originally posted by ChickenHawk
You are right of course. I should not have grouped all the Moslems together. The three main ethnic groups in Iraq hate each other and are currently in a power struggle for control of the oil and as much real estate as they can get their hands on.
Aside from that, we still are their enemy and the number of those wishing to do us harm grows by the day. As soon as one group gets on top of the dog pile, they will come looking for us a little closer to home.
It seems the northern part of Iraq is doing pretty good. The Kurds seem to have their stuff together.
-
Originally posted by Shifty
Katrina style? A hurricane didn't hit France. These guys bit the hand that fed them because they felt they were not getting fed enough. Tell the family of the defensless old woman they set on fire that they just wanted to watch the world cup in HD. Your theory of giving them gifts so they'll leave you alone is a loser. FACT.:aok
I meant LOOTING, Katrina style : big difference between looters lifting Nikes and suicide bombers blowing up a market full of innocents.
and if I have to explain , I don't mean gifts, I mean literally BUY them OFF until they are too fat to move and too greedy to want to die at 19.
buying them off is not MY theory, but it works well, that's how Saudians got lebanon to aid Hizbollah :
they promised to rebuild the country when Israel would attack , and pay off victims : interestingly enough, on the day after the ceasefire, a whole organisation was ready, with offices, computers and tons of cash and they were giving away wads of US dollars, very structured operation, obviously planned well ahead.
Result :
Saudians got their way, Israel looks bad, they advanced their agenda of Islamic conquest of the world, and it was much cheaper than waging war against Israel with troops and equipment.
forget morals and ethics (they sure do ), from a pure economical standpoint it is less expensive to buy off a whole population of uneducated, brainwashed people.
the whole purpose of Islam (apart from being a conquering religion set up on world domination like Dr Evil on 'roids) is to keep its people in the middle ages, and poor enough :
they will be much easier to buy off when a big push against the rest of the world is needed, and desperate enough to go : if they live, they'll have a few crumbs for their family, if they die they do too, plus go to heaven and a 72 year old virgin (small print in the koran).
We have two solutions as a civilized western world : kill them -ALL- , and we'll all have innocent blood on our hands , or buy them off, turn them into greedy capitalists,with access to education : give them internet pr0n and Jerry Springer, we'll have world peace in no time...
-
Spooky, if I beleived that money would disuade them I'd be for your idea. $300B can buy a lot of plasma TVs alright. But I simply think they'd take the money and still call for jihad.
I'm not talking about the guy in the street, the average Hodji here, I'm talking about the Mullahs, Imams and the Ayatollahs. The average Joe (Abu) is uneducated and completely bereft of a sense of self or individualism, why else would he blow himself up in a crowded market? If they (again, the leadership) don't incite the masses against the "great satan" of the west then they'll lose power. The folks in the street will realize they've been mislead and sold-out, then they'll want to replace their dictators. Losing power over their uneducated masses is the only thing they are afraid of. If we hand out TVs and refrigerators the leadership will say they are the one's supplying such things and still call for jihad against the west.
-
Originally posted by Spooky
Cheaper to buy them off in the long run.
Are you holding a white flag with one hand and typing with the other?
-
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Our military needs to get better at counter-insurgency.
Its not the insurgency, its the occupation of a foriegn country that they need help with.
-
Originally posted by Spooky
We have two solutions as a civilized western world : kill them -ALL- or buy them off,
Well, we know what happened the last time we tried appeasement instead of confronting groups hellbent on controlling the world through fear.
Oh, but 'Peace in our time' worked after all, didn't it?
-
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Our military needs to get better at counter-insurgency.
In reality, what does the average grunt know about counter-insurgency? 99% of the soldiers can't speak arabic, how are they going to build relationships and communicate with the locals?
The best book I've read on counter-insurgency is one called "Lost in translation". You have to have the support of the local population, they are the ones who tell you when movements are going on, where booby-traps and IEDs are, and other vital information. But if the local pop is afraid, if they suffer retaliation because they give you intel, then you have lost.
Interesting point.
What is your expirence within the military?
-
I swear, Bush himself could say the Iraq is a disaster and the Bushophiles would deny it.
"Abizaid: I believe that the sectarian violence is probably as bad as I've seen it in Baghdad in particular, and that if not stopped, it is possible that Iraq could move toward civil war."
- General Abizaid, August 2006.
In November 2003 Abizaid said there were less than 5,000 insurgents in Iraq.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1006232,00.html
In Austust 2006 Abizaid said there were about 20,000 insurgents in Iraq.
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=2744
"An overwhelming majority of 72% of American troops serving in Iraq think the U.S. should exit the country within the next year, and more than one in four say the troops should leave immediately, a new Le Moyne College/Zogby International survey shows."
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1075
...and magikallly it's the fult of teh Librals! :mad:
-
Originally posted by Fishu
It's not quite that simple. You're thinking it simply from your point of view, with your cultural background and your way of thinking. The western way of thinking. To them we're nothing but aggressors with empty promises. Whether the terrorist, or whatever people likes to call them, right or wrong, it doesn't matter to the people, because they are part of the people down there in the middle east. There's a much bigger threat against them all - the west - which they see as a threat or an aggressor.
What has the west brought to the people in the middle east; Wealth? Jobs? Pleasure? Luxury?
The west has brought them nothing of those. Instead, on the daily news they're every day hearing about people having it bad in several different places in the middle east and all of those have one common factor: The western influence.
To them it's similar situation as the communism was for the west. It has little to do with what the west really wants, when the people down there hears nothing but bad whenever it's about the west and the middle east. We can tell them all we want about the human rights and the benefits of democracy, but we haven't done any of it, on the contrary. To them our talk of freedom etc. is same as their promises of peace etc. to us - empty words. People reacts to acts, not to words of promises one after another.
People react to these acts. Bad acts cause bad things and vice-versa. We can criticize their reactions all we wan't, but that doesn't help if we keep doing something that creates the response. Exageration and ignorance most definitely won't help with the issue. We're not going to get rid of them, so why are we trying to make our situation even worse? Let them be the fools instead. Eventually the people down there will question the support for their terrorists. That just doesn't happen if we don't question our ignorance on the results of our actions first.
You speak as if you know what "they" think. You are just making this crap up, and trying to pass it off as some sort of fact. Problem with the middle east is the crusades were not more successful. If crusaders had finished the job, we wouldn't have so many radical islamic fundamentalists.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
...and magikallly it's the fult of teh Librals! :mad:
Who in this thread said that it was the liberals fault? Or did that come from the same place you learned to spell?;)
-
Originally posted by john9001
the terrorists love people like you, in fact they need people like you to win.
What's that smell?
-
Smells like...rotting meat?
-
Originally posted by Sandman
What's that smell?
...that "gasoline" smell?