Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: soda72 on August 24, 2006, 12:08:12 PM
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Somali woman is flogged for drugs (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5283192.stm)
Well maybe, maybe not...
But they sure get down to business don't they...
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Thread's name sounded to me like "Work is our friend, we'll never touch it, vodka is our enemy, we'll annihilate it!"
Thought they have a war on drugs destroying them by consuming them...
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Wonder if it works better than jail?
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barbaric punishment for victimless "crime"
wtg
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It's funny how you can spin things, Funked.
Here, the first thing I thought was:
Just TRUE actual punishment for a crime committed.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
barbaric punishment for victimless "crime"
wtg
Sounds about right.
:aok
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
barbaric punishment for victimless "crime"
wtg
do you teach the kids that there is no victim if they do drugs?
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Please someone help us from hippie fascism..
:D
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
barbaric punishment for victimless "crime"
wtg
Now you've opened a big can of worms..
:aok
you hippie....
:D
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Originally posted by soda72
Please someone help us from hippie fascism..
:D
It's moral absolutism/fascism that gave us stuff like prohibition... and the corresponding black market, murder rate, and Kennedy family.
Beware of freedom. It does dangerous things like let people choose for themself.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
do you teach the kids that there is no victim if they do drugs?
He probably teaches personal freedom should trump Bull**** laws like Drug laws.
But feel free to keep thinking the war on drugs is anything but a HUGE waste of money.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
do you teach the kids that there is no victim if they do drugs?
The victim is themselves, but I guess we need more nanny laws? If you do not believe in the seat belt law...
Stay involved with your kids, teach them well, you won't need any drug laws
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Originally posted by indy007
It's moral absolutism/fascism that gave us stuff like prohibition... and the corresponding black market, murder rate, and Kennedy family.
Beware of freedom. It does dangerous things like let people choose for themself.
Morality played a part but patriotism was the nail in the coffin..
National Prohibition was defended as a war measure. The amendment's proponents argued that grain should be made into bread for fighting men and not for liquor. Anti-German sentiment aided Prohibition's approval. The Anti-Saloon League called Milwaukee's brewers "the worst of all our German enemies," and dubbed their beer "Kaiser brew."
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
He probably teaches personal freedom should trump Bull**** laws like Drug laws.
But feel free to keep thinking the war on drugs is anything but a HUGE waste of money.
I'm not arguing the "war on drugs"
to say drug use is a victimless act is foolish and ignorant at best. just because you don't personally know the drug mule who gets murdered in mexico for not delivering on time doesn't mean he is irrelevant.
try and rationalize it all you want, but drug use can and does harm people, sometimes innocent bystanders.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
I'm not arguing the "war on drugs"
to say drug use is a victimless act is foolish and ignorant at best. just because you don't personally know the drug mule who gets murdered in mexico for not delivering on time doesn't mean he is irrelevant.
try and rationalize it all you want, but drug use can and does harm people, sometimes innocent bystanders.
What came first, the drug mule, or the legislation that made it a viable career?
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...here, let me finish this beer and then I will tell you all why drugs are bad.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
I'm not arguing the "war on drugs"
to say drug use is a victimless act is foolish and ignorant at best. just because you don't personally know the drug mule who gets murdered in mexico for not delivering on time doesn't mean he is irrelevant.
try and rationalize it all you want, but drug use can and does harm people, sometimes innocent bystanders.
Innocent bystanders only get hurt because criminals traffic it. If it was legal that would not be a problem.
I am not saying drugs are not harmful, just like Booze they can cause problems.
I just do not think those problems are enough to take away someone’s choice/freedom of what they put in their body.
Try and Rationalize it all you want, you would rather have Mommy make something illegal then be free.
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ok so we legalize crack and meth and stuff... tax the hell out of it, and sell it....
then along comes mr. psycho addict. he's out of money and needs his fix. he mugs my father and kills him to get the money / car / whatever.
you telling me that by legalizing drugs that won't happen on a daily basis all over the country? Drugs like coke, crack, meth, and heroin addict people very quickly and easily, and the ammount of drugs needed for the "fix" grows and grows usually until the eventual overdose. what about someone tripped out on acid, and snorting coke at the same time driving down the street? treat them like a plain old drunk driver?
oh wait, let me guess, you just want certian drugs to be legal? where is the line as to which are "ok" and which aren't? it would be endlessly debatable with people for or against said drug.
i don't know if our system is right or wrong, but I do know that letting full blown crack heads run the streets blitzed out of their gourds is not safe for society as a whole.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
Blah blah blah blah I need protection from evil drug addicts, cause there are none right now that ever need money.... so thet dont do bad things.... blah blah blah, freedom is to much for me to handle.
Just admit you would rather the government stop people from being free to take what they want. Its ok, lots of people are like you. Safe is better then free. It's cool for you.
Oh, and you don't think the druggies already pull that stuff you described now? If anything that would go away, since the government could pay for treatment programs with the taxes and the drugs would be cheaper.
Maybe you should think about other dangerous things that could harm you or you old man, what about the gun the crack addict is going to use? Ban them too right? You don't need it?
Why the double standard, booze is the most abused drug in this country we tried banning that and OMG it created a whole crime industry just like the war on drugs is doing. But that was just booze that doesn’t hurt anyone, well other then all the people kill with their cars.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Just admit you would rather the government stop people from being free to take what they want. Its ok, lots of people are like you. Safe is better then free. It's cool for you.
Oh, and you don't think the druggies already pull that stuff you described now? If anything that would go away, since the government could pay for treatment programs with the taxes and the drugs would be cheaper.
Maybe you should think about other dangerous things that could harm you or you old man, what about the gun the crack addict is going to use? Ban them too right? You don't need it?
Why the double standard, booze is the most abused drug in this country we tried banning that and OMG it created a whole crime industry just like the war on drugs is doing. But that was just booze that doesn’t hurt anyone, well other then all the people kill with their cars.
Nicely put GtoRA2. Couldn't have said it better myself. Unfortunately, common sense isn't quite as common anymore.
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I know a lot of people who have done a lot of things over the years. Several have seriously damaged their lives through cocaine. Know far more pothead lawyers, doctors, IT folk and top sales professionals than I know burnouts. Fourtunately, missed the heroin revival. However, only three that I know have died of drugs, and the drug was alcohol. A few cancer survivors from tobacco too, along the way.
With the huge amount of money flowing into the prison/lawenforcement/criminal justice industrial complex -- I've seen at least $30 billion annually -- and the huge governmental bureauracies/fifedoms that exist; I would expect to see sensible drug policy about the same time we see alcohol made illegal, or the IRS reformed or campaign finance reform. Hell, can't even have a public, political dialog on the issue. Too much at stake for the powers that be. Without criminals to fill that pipeline, which the war on drugs provides in spades, profits suffer and the lobbyists can't have that.
Charon
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Originally posted by Charon
I know a lot of people who have done a lot of things over the years. Several have seriously damaged their lives through cocaine. Know far more pothead lawyers, doctors, IT folk and top sales professionals than I know burnouts. Fourtunately, missed the heroin revival. However, only three that I know have died of drugs, and the drug was alcohol. A few cancer survivors from tobacco too, along the way.
With the huge amount of money flowing into the prison/lawenforcement/criminal justice industrial complex -- I've seen at least $30 billion annually -- and the huge governmental bureauracies/fifedoms that exist; I would expect to see sensible drug policy about the same time we see alcohol made illegal, or the IRS reformed or campaign finance reform. Hell, can't even have a public, political dialog on the issue. Too much at stake for the powers that be. Without criminals to fill that pipeline, which the war on drugs provides in spades, profits suffer and the lobbyists can't have that.
Charon
Yep, it's pretty sad.
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After seeing the bodies of our guys who were there to feed and restore order dragged through their streets it's hard for me to have much sympathy for Somalians. I earnestly hope we never go back there unless it's to kill islamofacists.
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mustain... so you believe that drug addicts will commit more crime if they can get their drugs cheaply?
That is of course the opposite of what would happen since they wouldn't have to burglarize or trash your car or rob you but... It could be that there would be more addicts and that just having more addicts would lead to more erratic behavior by more people.
In my experiance... there are just so many people that try drugs and then become addicts. it matters not if the drugs are legal or not. If the drug is legal... like booze... they just trash everyones life but don't normaly break into your house for booze money (till it is taxed into the illegal category)
If you are an addict for an illegal drug you will lead a life of crime.
As for victims? anyone around any addict is a victim. that would not change. A drunk driver kills people. You catch him... you punish him... same for pot or meth or heroin or whatever.
You show up drunkl on the job... you get fired... same should be for meth or pot or heroin or whatever.
If the drugs were legal they would also lose some of their mystique and some of the glamor. People would have the same disdain for addicts they do for drunks.
We could get rid of a lot of police and a lot of taxes.
lazs
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
blah blah blah I just want to do whatever i want whenever i want because I am selfish and don't care about the outcome no matter how it effects anyone. everyone is ok and make love not war.
fixed it for you.
you may want to live in a Godless, lawless, anarchist society and you may even be deluded enough to think that it will work. I do not and will never agree with that.
As to guns, how the hell did you make that insane leap? and have you ever read a single of my posts before? I am pro-gun all the way and have always. I guess you just needed to find something you could try and assume about me.
It's funny I may be one of the most conservative republicans in here in my personal beliefs, but rarely am strongly vocal about it... in your reply you seem to make me sound like a whining liberal?!? I don't get it. it is the liberal hippy whiners that want drugs legalized. waaaaa I want to get high because I have a weak mind and can't deal with life. make it legal so I can!
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Originally posted by lazs2
mustain... so you believe that drug addicts will commit more crime if they can get their drugs cheaply?
no I think there would be 10 or 20 times as many full blown addicts. I mean the crack potato homeless car jacker type.
I actually think law enforcement would triple in the need to take care of all these full blown addicts.
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That's also their punishment for wearing jeans, listening to music, dancing, singing, not fully covering your face in public, and in some areas is the mildest form of punishment for getting raped.
They're gonna win the war on life.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
no I think there would be 10 or 20 times as many full blown addicts. I mean the crack potato homeless car jacker type.
The REALLY funny thing is, for the cost of sending just one of these "Crack potato homeless car jacker types" to jail for 20 years, you could put 10-20 of them through a great rehab that might actually work... Not this "30 day express lane BS" we have now.
I've known three people who've died from a drug overdose - my brother included. I am ALL for legalizing drugs... Heck, maybe even all of them.
I don't see the problem as getting any worse then it is now - if you're the type of person who's going to risk an overdose from coke or heroin, you're not going to give a crud if it's legal or not...
Really, Mustaine, when you say: "waaaaa I want to get high because I have a weak mind and can't deal with life."
All I hear is "waaa I don't want drugs to be legal because I have a weak mind and if our nanny gov't lets me, I can't keep myself from doing it."
And you sir, would be in the minority in that regard ;)
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mustaine.... you believe that there are twenty times more addicts out there right now than we have and that the only thing that keeps them from knowing it is......
They can't get drugs because of the extremely efficent war on drugs?
Do you also believe that booze is somehow different and that there is no crossover? That people who would be addicts don't like booze maybe? that they scorn legal drugs like booze but would go insane if drugs were suddenly cheap and available?
I say that people will try the drugs... the tradgedies will be right up front for all to see and the people smart enough to stay away from drugs now will stay away even more so when they are legal.
Everyone isn't a drunk. Prohibition did not stop drunks from commiting crime... it caused crime.. it glamorized booze and probly led to more alcohol abuse than we have ever had.
besides... it is no ones business what another person does to his own body.
lazs
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Originally posted by Mustaine
no I think there would be 10 or 20 times as many full blown addicts. I mean the crack potato homeless car jacker type.
I actually think law enforcement would triple in the need to take care of all these full blown addicts.
Well then, it might surprise you to know that before the war on drugs, cocaine was $100 a gram, after the war on drugs was in full swing, it dropped to $25 a gram.
So, using the logic you just presented, the war on drugs caused a 75% increase in "full blown addicts"
Pot, otoh, went up about 75%, so why pay big money on pot when you can get cocaine for $25 a gram?
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vudak, hear what you want, I don't want to do drugs like that.
as you brought it up... please tell me how this "rehab" program will honestly work? there would be no legal way to make the addicts go into the program, and are you that naive to think they will volunteerly go into said program?
what about employers? what are the laws regarding hiring? they would be legal substances. a drug test may show you used crack 2 weeks ago. can they not hire you? i can drink off the job, and still get hired. where is the line drawn?
Lazs, no I think they are not addicts because they don't want to risk jail for using an illegal substance. I know many "casual" users who would jump to at least daily usage if the legality of it was not a question.
no I do not think booze is different... just like smoking. it is considered legal, but it is getting DARN close to being illegal, especially in your home state.
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Originally posted by lazs2
mustaine.... you believe that there are twenty times more addicts out there right now than we have and that the only thing that keeps them from knowing it is......
They can't get drugs because of the extremely efficent war on drugs?
Do you also believe that booze is somehow different and that there is no crossover? That people who would be addicts don't like booze maybe? that they scorn legal drugs like booze but would go insane if drugs were suddenly cheap and available?
I say that people will try the drugs... the tradgedies will be right up front for all to see and the people smart enough to stay away from drugs now will stay away even more so when they are legal.
Everyone isn't a drunk. Prohibition did not stop drunks from commiting crime... it caused crime.. it glamorized booze and probly led to more alcohol abuse than we have ever had.
besides... it is no ones business what another person does to his own body.
lazs
What drugs do you recommend being legalized?
Majiuna
heroin/opium
Meth
cocaine
If Majiuna is legalized would it be ok to smoke it in public places like bars, resturants etc?
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Originally posted by soda72
What drugs do you recommend being legalized?
Majiuna
heroin/opium
Meth
cocaine
If Majiuna is legalized would it be ok to smoke it in public places like bars, resturants etc?
exactly.
there seems to be a consensus of they pro-drug people that all drugs be legal.
meth
coke
crack
crank
extasty
heroin
pcp
acid
mushrooms
pot
and any other thing you can ingest / smoke.
where is the line?
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Originally posted by Mustaine
there seems to be a consensus of they pro-drug people that all drugs be legal.
The war on drugs may not have made cocaine legal, but(read my post above) it made it just about free
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I saw nobody gutting anyone the last time I was in a Netherlands coffee shop. I must get new glasses...
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Originally posted by Saintaw
I saw nobody gutting anyone the last time I was in a Netherlands coffee shop. I must get new glasses...
You weren't mugged or carjacked because someone couldn't afford the goods at the coffee shop? Don't lie. You know it causes crime!
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another thing... lets compare this to smoking.
you say all the drugs are going to create these huge tax revenues. how much are you going to tax the stuff? look at cigarette tax. it is insane how much it is, yet the government is using the fact that supposedly that tax money is not enough to pay for the health problems smoking causes.
if that is the case how much are you going to have to tax crack to cover all the related costs? don;t forget about the person high on crack who you say:
the cost of sending just one of these "Crack potato homeless car jacker types" to jail for 20 years,
just 1.... you know how many arreses there would be with ALL the drugs being tested for for drivers "impared"
how long do you lock each of them up for? how do you prove there were under the infulence at that time? you can do coke and it would show up in your system a month later. there more tax money spent on detaining, testing, and convicting that junkie. car accidents... how long do they go away for then? more tax money.
back to cigarettes. I have never heard of someone needing a cigarette so bad they do anything to have it. the high is not there like say heroin. some junkie needs his fix, he is ALOT more desperate to get that high, and will act out much differently than someone just needing a cigarette.
you can almost subsitute booze in much of this, but i hope you are intelligent to see where I am going with this.
to support all this wonderous stuff you say would be there for the druggies, you would be taking it so high it may even be more expensive than today. then there would also be an underground contingent to get it cheaper than the taxed stuff. there's users you are not collecting money from yet still have to pay for all their actions.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
where is the line? [/B]
In a truly free country, the line is determined by the individual, and not society. Only when the individual becomes a danger to society are laws neccessary to curb the behaviour.
Somebody getting hammered on vodka, nodding off after mainlining, getting baked out of their skull, in the safety of their own home, are no danger to you.
Now, the same situation as above... but If they start playing with guns, hop behind the wheel of a car, or create an unsafe atmosphere for their family, is illegal, as it should be.
By your own logic, alcohol should be banned. It's a very dangerous drug that causes thousands of deaths every year. However, judging by the location under your avatar, I'd imagine you'd be very upset it we told you that we know what's best for you, and you can't have beer anymore... ever.
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Originally posted by Nifty
You weren't mugged or carjacked because someone couldn't afford the goods at the coffee shop? Don't lie. You know it causes crime!
do you guys ever hear yourselves?
are you that dense that you compare the effects of caffine to that of cocaine or heroin? you truly believe that someone needing a caffine fix is in the same mental state as someone needing a crack fix?
:O
if that is the rational of you people here I give up. you can't argue reason and logic with idjits.
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I'm not talking making it legal, myself, I just question all this money being spent trying to stop it when all the war on drugs has done is flood the market and drop the price.
You know what kept me off off drugs? Education, I knew what hard drugs(including hard booze) did to the body, and to the mind. I made the decision not to do them, legal or not.
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Originally posted by indy007
Only when the individual becomes a danger to society are laws neccessary to curb the behaviour.
ok drugs are legal.
now at the club there are hundreds legally shooting up. sharing needles, oh the needles are free? there's more tax on the product to pay for needles. so some share, and disease runs rampant from the sharing.
100's of joe homeboy smokes some crack, and trpis on acid on the street corner. they become irrational, paranoid, and run into the street causing accidents.
i can do this all day with examples, but i don't want to type that much.
Somebody getting hammered on vodka, nodding off after mainlining, getting baked out of their skull, in the safety of their own home, are no danger to you.
the reason they stay inside all doped up is it is illegal. if they are given carte blanche to do it in public, they are no longer using "in a safe and controled place".
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Originally posted by Sixpence
I'm not talking making it legal, myself, I just question all this money being spent trying to stop it when all the war on drugs has done is flood the market and drop the price.
You know what kept me off off drugs? Education, I knew what hard drugs(including hard booze) did to the body, and to the mind. I made the decision not to do them, legal or not.
I understand your rational, and I truly believe that making them legal is not the answer.
as I said in one of my first posts that seems to be lost by some along the way:
Originally posted by Mustaine
i don't know if our system is right or wrong, but I do know that letting full blown crack heads run the streets blitzed out of their gourds is not safe for society as a whole.
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back to cigarettes. I have never heard of someone needing a cigarette so bad they do anything to have it. the high is not there like say heroin. some junkie needs his fix, he is ALOT more desperate to get that high, and will act out much differently than someone just needing a cigarette.
Says you, and based on what exactly? Cigs are legal the last time I checked.
You mean like getting out of the oxygen tent when suffering from emphysema to light one up? Or still smoking after you’ve had a lung removed from cancer or a heart attack? Question for the smokers on the board. What would happen if they banned tobacco completely tomorrow and made it illegal? Would you be a criminal? What would happen if you happened to be out of a job at the time and somebody walked away from a table to use the john and left a pack of smokes sitting out? :) Could you see another smoker being even more drastic to feed the habit?
Let’s look at death statistics:
Tobacco: 435,000 (see #1)
Poor Diet and
Physical Inactivity: 365,000 (see #1)
Alcohol: 85,000 (see #1)
Microbial Agents: 75,000 (see #1)
Toxic Agents: 55,000 (see #1)
Motor Vehicle Crashes: 26,347 (see #1)
Adverse Reactions
To Prescription Drugs: 32,000 (see #2)
Suicide: 30,622 (see #3)
Incidents Involving Firearms: 29,000 (see #1)
Homicide: 20,308 (see #4)
Sexual Behaviors: 20,000 (see #1)
Illicit Use of Drugs: 17,000 (see #1 and #5)
Anti-Inflammatory Drugs Such As Aspirin: 7,600 (see #6)
Marijuana: 0 (see #7)
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/causes.txt
Oh my… BTW, In Amsterdam, they don’t just sell “coffee” at the coffee shop.
Do you have any basis in fact for your positions?
Charon
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Where alcohol is concerend I've actually experienced somebody drinking himself to death. Blackouts (and not the type you have with a bender) convulsions, DTs... the works. They guy knew he was killing himself too. Didn't have the authority to do more than plead for him to stop. Not pretty.
So why have alcohol legal? Maybe, because the majority of responsible drinkers want to enjoy THEIR drug fun, and they have the numbers to make it happen.
Charon
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Originally posted by Mustaine
i can do this all day with examples, but i don't want to type that much.
I think you're missing a big point.
Currently, alcohol is legal, with limitations. It's proven to be a very dangerous substance. It causes death, shattered families, etc, etc. People have committed violent crime under the influence. People have committed violent crime to get money to spend on more alcohol.
Currently, crack is illegal. It's proven to be a very dangerous substance. It causes death, shattered families, etc, etc. People have committed violent crime under the influence. People have committed violent crime to get money to spend on more crack.
You say, that if crack were illegal, crackheads would terrorize society. I'll point out that alcohol is legal, and alcoholics do terrorize society. It's the price you pay for being in a free society. When the people terrorize society, their actions are illegal.
Sending people to jail because of their choice of poison, before they've endangered society in any manner, is bull****.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
fixed it for you.
you may want to live in a Godless, lawless, anarchist society and you may even be deluded enough to think that it will work. I do not and will never agree with that.
As to guns, how the hell did you make that insane leap? and have you ever read a single of my posts before? I am pro-gun all the way and have always. I guess you just needed to find something you could try and assume about me.
It's funny I may be one of the most conservative republicans in here in my personal beliefs, but rarely am strongly vocal about it... in your reply you seem to make me sound like a whining liberal?!? I don't get it. it is the liberal hippy whiners that want drugs legalized. waaaaa I want to get high because I have a weak mind and can't deal with life. make it legal so I can!
Well you fixed it wrong; I am far from an anarchist, lol.
Societies need laws to protect us from each other to some degree, murder, rape, theft, drunken driving etc.
I just don’t need “guys” like you and the government telling me what I can and can’t do in my private life, see I have enough self control to not do hard drugs, I don’t even drink. I don’t need laws to protect myself from myself. Now if you don’t have the confidence in yourself I can see why you would want big government to protect you from yourself. (it won’t work BTW)
That’s why you’re the hypocrite, you want some things that can be dangerous to the individual banned for the false sense of security it gives you, you just don’t see it’s the same thing the anti gun people do. Guns are dangerous man, if you don’t think most people have the self control to not become a raving drug maniac, why do you trust them with guns? Me I am all for guns, and as sad as accidental gun deaths can be (I don’t give two ****s if some gang banger pops another as long as they do it where only their families are or I can shoot back) it’s the price I am willing to pay to have that right. I am willing to pay the same price in death, over drugs, stupid people do stupid ****, some die, big government isn’t going to stop that, nor should it.
The drug problem in this country is worse then ever after long years of the bull**** war on drugs; drugs are easier to get then ever. You could do far more to prevent drug use with programs that show the true perils with hard drugs, and not the bull**** the government passes off as anti drug commercials that high school kids laugh at as they smoke their joint.
Free people have should have the choice to **** up their lives anyway they want. It is their life, and they pay the consequences.
Oh and all your bleating like a sheep who has seen a wolf and wants the sheep herder to stop having his fun with him and protect him are already mostly covered.
Driving while intoxicated is illegal in just about everywhere, it doesn’t matter what drug it is including booze.
I am not calling you a liberal, I will leave that for guys like BGB, I am just pointing out your disdain for personal freedom when its something you don’t like.
That’s not how freedom works Chief; you should not get to impose your will on me because you do not like something. Unfortunately for this country we have far two many people like you who would chose “safety” even bull**** safety over true freedom. True freedom isn’t pretty at times, but that’s one of the prices.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
if you don’t think most people have the self control to not become a raving drug maniac, why do you trust them with guns?
because guns don't alter your state of mind artifically and affect your rational thought.
where we disagree is is this a law that inhibits our freedoms, or that as you stated:
"protect us from each other to some degree". I believe that is what drug laws do, you do not. fine. I feel I have stated my reasons clearly. It doesn't give me a false sense of security at all.
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If we decriminalize drugs we're gonna need to rethink some other things. I believe there will be many more instances of people out of control on whatever the latest mind rot is on the street. We're gonna need a much bigger police force to control these Rodney King wannabes and bigger pockets to pay the police brutality suits that will no doubt ensue.
Or, we declare open season on out of control drug abusers. Anyone found to be threatening or endangering others can be put down on the spot by anyone with a gun, old west style. I kinda like this idea.
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Originally posted by Charon
You mean like getting out of the oxygen tent when suffering from emphysema to light one up? Or still smoking after you’ve had a lung removed from cancer or a heart attack?
Charon
We had a guy at work, dragged oxygen around with him, could barely breath, still would go outside and smoke. My friend growing up had an uncle who would visit them now and then, he would sneak into the bathroom and drink the aftershave.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
because guns don't alter your state of mind artifically and affect your rational thought.
where we disagree is is this a law that inhibits our freedoms, or that as you stated:
"protect us from each other to some degree". I believe that is what drug laws do, you do not. fine. I feel I have stated my reasons clearly. It doesn't give me a false sense of security at all.
Yeah and mine is based on logic, and reason and a want for freedom.
Your's is based on a BS fear of drugs and druggies. Look at the stats Charon posted. Booze, kills far more then drugs, yet your not screaming for protection from that, guess that cause mommy says its ok.
all the people drunks have killed with their cars while their judgement and mind was artifically altered is EXACTLY the same thing, but in you mind they are not.................
Ready to admit freedom is to much for you yet? Your words are saying it already.
Logic is our friend, well not YOUR friend...
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show me the statistics of having all drugs legal then we'll talk statistics.
those stats are irrelevant and usless because it does not include the free and legal use of cocaine, heroin, crack, meth and so on.
if you truly think drug use would not rise if the drugs were suddenly made legal then no your argument is not based on logic.
you're sitting here actually trying to argue something hypothetical with current event statistics. who looks foolish there? that's like taking the crash statistics from today and applying them to if we all flew flying cars like the jetsons. the data is irrelevant.
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So why would drugs being legal be a bad thing? No, really, I'm comfused. Alcohol and cigarettes are legal and they're far more lethal than some other drugs out there. Hell, there's never been a recorded death from weed, period. Most deaths dealing with drugs are from people getting killed traffiking them around the country.
So where's the evil here?
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Lets take a look at past experience with opium....
The Opium Wars (http://www.wsu.edu:8001/~dee/CHING/OPIUM.HTM)
The effects on Chinese society were devestating. In fact, there are few periods in Chinese history that approach the early nineteenth century in terms of pure human misery and tragedy. In an effort to stem the tragedy, the imperial government made opium illegal in 1836 and began to aggressively close down the opium dens.
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Mustaine, I have to wonder... How many of these drugs you abhor have you actually tried?
For the record, I've done pot, cocaine, ecstacy, rx's (basically low-yield heroin), acid, shrooms, alcohol, and various crushed pills.
Basically I'm missing crack, meth, and a few other oddballs. But I know PLENTY of people who've done them all.
Of course, I'm not going around robbing people. Or really breaking the law in any other way. I'm not addicted to any of these things, and the only two I do with *any* regularity are pot and alcohol. But doing the other ones a handful of times each hasn't ruined me... It hasn't turned me violent, or made me a danger to society... If anything the experiences have made me wiser and arguably more compassionate and understanding.
And as for your question about rehab places - when people hit rock bottom, they go voluntarily. It's the same way with alcohol. The strong-willed don't need it in the first place. Same with alcohol.
I'm sorry, but you come off as some high and mighty individual who "knows" this "world" so well... I have to ask... How many crack houses have YOU spent time in? How many raves have YOU gone to? How much time have YOU put into REALLY walking in a user's shoes?
As of now, it comes off as though you get all your information from documentaries.
Enlighten me.
- Edit - Soda jogged my memory - I've done Opium, too ;)
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I have not tried them other than pot myself.
I have seen my HS friends mother overdose. I have seen another friends brother go to jail for 5 years for drugs and gun charges. I have seen a friend drop out of college and lose all her friends being a coke head. I have seen my ex GF mother live of disability for manic depression and do all sorts of drugs daily, lose her mind in the middle of downtown, and we had to call the police to help find her. when they did she was totally parinoid and junk. I have had a gun pointed at me by a doped up stranger. I have had my 1/2 sister attempt suicide while high.
I am sure I could go on, but do I need to?
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Originally posted by Mustaine
I have not tried them other than pot myself.
I have seen my HS friends mother overdose. I have seen another friends brother go to jail for 5 years for drugs and gun charges. I have seen a friend drop out of college and lose all her friends being a coke head. I have seen my ex GF mother live of disability for manic depression and do all sorts of drugs daily, lose her mind in the middle of downtown, and we had to call the police to help find her. when they did she was totally parinoid and junk. I have had a gun pointed at me by a doped up stranger. I have had my 1/2 sister attempt suicide while high.
I am sure I could go on, but do I need to?
Yep your anti drug nanny/mommy protect me laws really saved those people didn't it.
Drugs might as well be legal, they are so easy to get they get right now, and cheap too.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
do you guys ever hear yourselves?
are you that dense that you compare the effects of caffine to that of cocaine or heroin? you truly believe that someone needing a caffine fix is in the same mental state as someone needing a crack fix?
:O
if that is the rational of you people here I give up. you can't argue reason and logic with idjits.
Apparently as dense are you are to not realize where Saintsaw said he was and just what they can legally sell at the "coffee" shops in that country.
edited to remove your extraneous spacing.
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on second thought gto nevermind, I haven't used the ignore feature since I was JB73...
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well... since you asked.. I don't know of any drug that I would make illegal for an adult to buy and use.
I see no problem with using the same restrictions on it that are on alcohol.
I don't care if there is a big tax revenue or not.... I do care that there would be less gangs making a profit off of it and that we could close down a couple of worthless agencies.
I am not worried about someone who is a drug addict and is able to get as many drugs as he wants.
I am worried about a drug addict that can't get as many as he wants.
To be clear.... I think drugs (including alcohol) are evil when abused. I was a drug addict and alcoholic for many years.
I see the war on drugs as not only hopeless but as making the problem worse and.... an insult to every free adult who should be able to make his own choices.
lazs
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Originally posted by Mustaine
if you truly think drug use would not rise if the drugs were suddenly made legal then no your argument is not based on logic.
So did everyone on these boards and everyone that they know run out to the gas station the day they turned 18 to buy a pack of smokes?
Of course not.
The people who would do it, will. Those who won't, won't.
Money used for this "war on drugs" could be used on TRUTHFUL education. All you need to do is show a few movies like Basketball Diaries or better yet, Requiem for a Dream in HS Health Class, maybe spend some cash on a trip to the methadone clinic, and you won't have too many kids trying the harder stuff.
Maybe even pay for some people who've lost it all to come in and talk to the kids about what they went through. Honestly. Not some police youth officer coming in with a load of BS.
OTOH, if all drugs were legalized, I am sure you would SEE an "explosion" of pot users. But, really, I doubt there would be many "new subscribers." Rather, you'd just finally see the millions of people who already do it. And hold important jobs. And do well at life. And haven't ruined themselves.
Basically, walking through any major city's nightlife area on any given Saturday night, you'd see as many people babbling stoned as you already see babbling drunk.
As for the harder stuff... I've had access to anything I want (as have you), all my life... Some stuff I've tried, other's I've made a point not to. Of the stuff I've tried, I've made sure I kept it a very, very, very rare indulgence. There are many more like me.
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Originally posted by Vudak
a few movies like Basketball Diaries
side note.... Leo actually did a great job in that movie IMHO :aok
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Originally posted by lazs2
I see the war on drugs as not only hopeless but as making the problem worse and.... an insult to every free adult who should be able to make his own choices.
lazs
I agree it is not working, I don't know about making things "worse" so to say. I do know it has to be handled differently... in my personal opinion mexico is to blame with the corruption and ease of transporting the goods across the border.
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Originally posted by Mustaine
on second thought gto nevermind, I haven't used the ignore feature since I was JB73...
Well, thats awsome, its not my first ignore I am sure, but the first one over something so laughable.
So not only do you want less freedom for those you fear and don't understand, when you can't win the debate you put the person on ignore. Classic!!
Now I understand why you got so much **** as JB73.
:rofl :rofl :rofl :D