Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: xtyger on August 24, 2006, 04:54:51 PM
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I've been through five different joysticks since I've been with AH. The last one had one of the handles that twists and operates the rudder. That drove me nuts because, even after I tried and tried to get used to it, it would often throw my aim off when I was in a tense high turning fight. No matter how hard I'd try, I'd always twist the handle just enough to screw me up. One the up side, it was nice to be able to use the rudder like that when landing.
Luckily, or unluckily, depending on how you look at it, that joystick went south when the throttle on it stopped working. In a huff I went to e-bay and ordered something I thought would be ok: A Logitech Attack 3 joystick. I didn't look too closely when I bought it only to find when it arrived, IT DIDN'T HAVE A HAT! Silly me. I looked at just about everything on the joystick but didn't think about a hat.
Actually, I like the joystick. I seem to do well with it but I have all the buttons set up for the different views and that can be a hassle as to look right and right forward I usually have to reach around the stick with my left hand to operate those views.
I like having the joystick without the twisty handle for rudder control but would love to have a hat again. Anyone know a good joystick with a throttle, hat, six to eight programmable buttons but no twisty handle? Also, anyone know a good source of a wide ranging supply of joysticks? Most catalogs I've seen only offer one or two brands.
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Don't buy a Logitech. Unless their quality control has improved in the last years. How much should it cost?
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expensive option~: get HOTAS and pedals from someone like CH products.
cheap option ~: MS sidewinder or saitek cyborg twisty sticks.
i have yet to see a non-twisty worth buying.
and if so, what would you use as rudder?
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Originally posted by Panzzer
Don't buy a Logitech. Unless their quality control has improved in the last years.
It has not, fyi.
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I love my Saitek X45 with the rudder control on the throttle. I don't know if Saitek even makes this thing anymore, but if you want a decent stick and throttle combo without the twisty stick rudder this one is real good at a decent price. Paid around $60 for mine brand new 2 years ago and haven't had any problems at all.
Fully programable, 3 (8 way) hat switches, 3 modes of operation. 7 main buttons, mouse emulator, and 2 trim knobs. No force feedback but I never liked that myself anyway.
All in all this is the best stick I've ever owned. About the only complaint I have is that I think the stock base should be heavier. It tends to slide around on the desk if it's not modified. I ended up taking 2 of the base assembly screws out of mine and drilled all the way through the base, then used 2 1/2 inch wood screws and mounted the stick and throttle to my desk. Sucker doesn't move now.:D
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CH was recommended to me and, excepting the throttle, that's what I have. It feels sturdy and very very smooth, the button options are awsome, and the feet pedals really help my control. If you have the $$ go with CH even if it is a piece at a time.
Of course thats just my opinion.
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If money is no object try my setup:
- CH Fighterstick USB (not twisty)
- CH Pro Throttle USB (these have no rudder control on them, but have a mini joystick you COULD use as one?)
- CH Pedals gameport (you cant get these anymore, only the Pro Pedals USB).
IMO, CH is the only way to go for solid engineering, constant reliability, good spare parts dept (if needed to replace things that eventually wear out like pots etc).
The above will set ya back $450 or so but is well worth it. I've had my pedals for 6 years (1 1/2 yrs in storage tho) and not a sinlge problem. Had my stick for year now (had to replace my old analog version with a USB version a year ago - the analog version is still perfect after 4 years of flogging). The Throttle ive had 5 months now, but im expecting it to last many many years.
try http://www.chproducts.com or http://www.provantage.com for CH gear - i think provantage does em cheaper.
No one ever regretted buying quality :)
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depending on where you live in this small blue marble, you can normally get a full CH USB setup for around $300.00 US currency, including shipping.........give or take a few bucks......if you are light on cash, opt for just the USB fighter stick ( has a rotary Throttle) and the USB pedals 1st......then buy the Pro Throttle at a later time............this knock it down to around $200.00.....................
or if you really light on the funds, opt for the CH Fighter stick ( remember AH has 4 Stick Modes!!!) and set a hat on the stick to work as your rudder for the time being, it isn't realistic, but it will work somewhat.and add as you get funds to do so..........
my analog-gameport CH HOTAS setup ( Fighterstick/prothrottle/propedals, is over 9 or 10 years old, and is still clicking along............)
good luck with what ever you decide to buy............
btw Provantage is usually best place or cheapest, there was another one someone listed, thinking Monarch? it fades my memory right now though , if that is not the place on the web........
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Any stick will give you the same basic functions. With the game settings, you can disable rudder function on a twisty stick, or play with deadband and dampening. Your dislike of twisty rudders need not affect your next stick purchase.
I've personally used (between AW, AH, and AH1) 4 logitechs, 4 saiteks, and a CH gameport stick. The CH stick had the best feel by far, but gameport connection and 4 way hats meant that was a no go for me. I picked up a Saitek X52 from one of the big box stores, and have been happy with it so far. Much better feel, and far more features than the cheaper Logitech and Saitek models, but not nearly as expensive as a CH HOTAS setup. Also, it will allow you to disable the twist function via a latch.
As an added bonus, like CH gear, it comes with software allowing you map all sorts of interesting features that the game interface does not.
While my first Saitek (an old Cyborg) lasted from AW through AH2, the next 2 didn't last 6 months, and at this point, I've probably wasted enough on budget sticks to have purchased a far better setup.
Having said that, had I the funds, I'd get a full USB CH rig without hesitation. The old CH stick I have is 11 years old, and (besides the outdated plug and 4way hats) absolutely perfect, despite many years of abuse through the cartoon careers of 3 different simgeeks.
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X52 and CH pro pedals
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CH USB stick and usb throttle and rudders.... about $250 and probly the last stuff you will ever have to buy. Most guys would destroy the old thrustmaster stuff in 6 months or so... Nothing else even comes close to being any good.
The only problem with the CH stuff if that the joystick is being marketed for little girls. there is no resistance. You can crudely fix this with 8, 1/2" rubber bands (2 at each axis or more for manly men, less for wussies) When they break... just add another.
or... you could just be a fluffer and use your mouse.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Thanx for the tips, all.
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Originally posted by lazs2
The only problem with the CH stuff if that the joystick is being marketed for little girls. there is no resistance. You can crudely fix this with 8, 1/2" rubber bands (2 at each axis or more for manly men, less for wussies) When they break... just add another.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
I'd have to agree, I installed some hvy duty thick rubberbands about 4 or so years ago, helps the feel/throw tremendously.......but stick was getting worn somewhat was my reasoning.......alos crimping down the connectors to the spade terminals helped it even more and stopped the spikes after 5 or 6 yrs of use.......
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I've used Saitek's X-45 and X-52. Both are very good sticks, especially for the price. As someone else mentioned the X-45 may no longer be available but it does have the rudder rocker on the throttle which worked OK. It also has a much stronger stick spring than the 52 and is fairly stiff. The big weakness to the X-45 that I know of was the hat switch wears out fairly quickly and can't be repaired.
The X-52 does have the twist grip which I was very wary of but I found it works well and the stick is well made and solid. There is plenty of dead-band to prevent you from inadvertently putting in rudder in an engagement but using rudder (especially to the left) is pretty natural. Right rudder is a little awkward at times. I also really like the lighter spring and the hats are of different design, don't know if this will improve their life although I've had no problems. The twist grip can be locked as someone else mentioned and Saitek is coming out with a matching set of rudder pedals that look to be really nice. They're wider than the CH pedals (i.e., the pedals are farther apart) which fixes a complaint many have had about the CH pedals.
I've never tried the CH but for the price I'm very pleased with the X-52 and liked the X-45 (with the exception of the hat switch)
Mace
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CH is the only way to go.
I've spent a lot of cash over the years buying sticks and such, even the venerable thrustmaster stuff. Nothing compares to the CH.
I have two CH setups. The first was the old gameport stuff, but my newer systems were no longer able to use gameport, so I bought a USB setup.
The gameport gear is almost 9 years old and still functions are good as it did on day one (my son uses it on his system) and the USB stuff is about 5 years old now and still working perfectly. Nothing has ever broken on them, and I haven't even had to replace any of the pots. No spiking, and I don't have to recalibrate every time I log in.
Also, the CH throttle and Fighterstick has 3 modes you can switch to and program a different stick set on each mode. I have one for fighters, one for GV's and one for buffs. Switching modes is as easy as clicking a single button. It's all self contained and I don't need to use any of the in-game stick mapping at all (yay!). If for some reason my stick goes crazy in game and I lose the mapping, it takes all of 10 seconds to click my stick map file and reload it into the CH devices and voila, back to normal.
Between the stick and throttle there are more buttons than I'll ever use and each can be programmed in any way you desire... you can even make a single button do 10 things if you want. You also can select several modes for each button (like direct X, straight data, etc) which allows you to change the functionality of each button specifically as it applies to any game, so you aren't stuck with using a certain button because that's what the game sees it as.
The fighterstick is 4 hats and 4 buttons (including the trigger) and the throttle has 4 hats and 3 buttons as well as a thumb mouse. Multiply that by 3 since each device has the three modes you can switch between.
The entire setup is pricey, but you'll only need to buy it once and it'll last you for years.
As for the spring resistance, I guess that's a personal thing. I always hated how stiff the thrustmaster stuff was. I like the CH as it is. I guess if you are ham fisted and have a tendency to get excited and jerk your joy stick around, you might want stiffer springs. If not, then the stock CH stuff is fine.
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well... you are an AK so your wrists would be a little more limp than other peoples (not that there is anything wrong with that..)
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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I have a Thrustmaster Top Gun Afterburner II. Very solid stick. Great feel all around, plenty of buttons, very comfy, nice stick-twist rudder, great big meaty throttle with adjustable resistance via included allen wrench. And very cheap, it was less than 40$ when I bought it two years ago. Beats the hell out of more expensive sticks like the Saitek X45.
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Ch sticks are for people willing to spend serious.
From buying logicrap i guess your looking for a budget stick.
I love my saitek cyborg evo force stick usually about 60 quid. Had this for about 2 years...
If you dont want force feedback the normal evo is about half the cost.
http://www.saitek.com order it online direct from them......
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I have a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. I'm quite happy with it. I'm pretty gentle with my gear, so it lasts a long time. I got over 3 years out of my old Saitek Cyborg 3D. I'm sure I'd love the CH gear, but it's hard to justify $300-400 when a $30 works for me.
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I have a Saitek X45 and really like it. The X52 gets good reviews, too. As far as pedals, yes, the CH pedals are awesome, but Saitek finally stepped up and made their own. I think if you go with the X52, stay with Saitek for the pedals. That way you can use the profiling software with no problems.
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I love my Microsoft PP2 Twisty, Ive been using it since WB's II
(I think i have 8 of em) :aok
You can get good ones on Ebay for 20 to 30 $
I have the twisty disabled and use CH peds,,,very nice combo
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I've owned every stick rig known to man, the latest being the Saitek X52. Like most Saitek gear, the pitch and yaw axis became loose and bouncy. I married a Microsoft Sidewinder Precision 2 USB (from eBay) to my Saitek throttle and now have a rig I'm very happy with.
Distilled :
Cheap - MS Sidewinder Precision2 USB
Beaucoup $$ - Complete CH Hotas
BTW>>>if any of you X52 folks can recommend a fix on the joystick drift I'd be eternally gratefull.
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For those of you that like the X-52 (or don't like it's color scheme) you should check this out Click Here (http://www.touch-buddy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=350) . According to the boards this is the X-52Pro "concept" and they don't have a release date. It's reported to be all metal, the MFD is changed and provides more info, HAT 2 is changed from a "coolie hat" to a castle switch and the plastic spring base (the cone at the base of the spring) is metal. There's some discussion regarding making the spring tension adjustible. Looks to me like Saitek wants to kick some serious CH and Cougar butt.
They also are now showing a another new stick on the Saitek website. It doesn't have a separate throttle module but does have dual throttle control on the stick base.
Click Here (http://www.saitekusa.com/usa/prod/av8r.htm)
Mace
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Originally posted by Kitteh
I have a Thrustmaster Top Gun Afterburner II. Very solid stick. Great feel all around, plenty of buttons, very comfy, nice stick-twist rudder, great big meaty throttle with adjustable resistance via included allen wrench. And very cheap, it was less than 40$ when I bought it two years ago. Beats the hell out of more expensive sticks like the Saitek X45.
(http://www.thrustmaster.com/eng/images/products/big/pc_afterburner2.gif)
I've had this same stick for about 2 years and love it. With the flip of a switch, you can decide whether you want rudder to be controlled by the twisty stick or a rocker switch that is placed comfortably on the throttle handle.
It has 8 programmable buttons. And, the base for the joystick can be disconnected from the base of the throttle, if you choose to do so.
I think I paid a bit more than Kitteh, but the price was still right.
If I ever break this stick, I'll buy it again.
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Originally posted by AKWarp
CH is the only way to go.
I've spent a lot of cash over the years buying sticks and such, even the venerable thrustmaster stuff. Nothing compares to the CH.
I have two CH setups. The first was the old gameport stuff, but my newer systems were no longer able to use gameport, so I bought a USB setup.
Same here. I have a complete gameport CH set-up in storage. The FFX stick I got used and the throttle and peds I bought new. They gave me years of flawless use but I had to retire them when I went with XP.
That's why buying a complete CH USB system was a no brainer for me.
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Originally posted by Flatbar
Same here. I have a complete gameport CH set-up in storage. The FFX stick I got used and the throttle and peds I bought new. They gave me years of flawless use but I had to retire them when I went with XP.
That's why buying a complete CH USB system was a no brainer for me.
Why would moving to XP preclude the use of Gameport sticks?
I've been using my Thrustmaster FLCS, WCS MkII, and CH Pedals, all gameport-based, in XP for *years* now. All you need is a soundcard with a gameport (I use a SoundBlaster Audigy 2 LS), or one of those gameport-to-usb dongles. XP supports it just fine.
-Llama
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I like the CH Products Flightstick Pro USB. I've used CH flightsticks since the early 90's. I like their feel the best, and they have been very sturdy and reliable for me.
I also like CH Products pedals very much, too.
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Originally posted by llama
Why would moving to XP preclude the use of Gameport sticks?
I've been using my Thrustmaster FLCS, WCS MkII, and CH Pedals, all gameport-based, in XP for *years* now. All you need is a soundcard with a gameport (I use a SoundBlaster Audigy 2 LS), or one of those gameport-to-usb dongles. XP supports it just fine.
-Llama
Some cards work, some don't. I have 2 SB soundcards with gameports. One works under XP, one doesn't. From what I've read and heard, my experience isn't all that unusual. No idea why, but not all gameport equipped cards work with XP.
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Originally posted by llama
Why would moving to XP preclude the use of Gameport sticks?
All you need is a soundcard with a gameport (I use a SoundBlaster Audigy 2 LS), or one of those gameport-to-usb dongles. XP supports it just fine.
-Llama
Same Here, I have used both types of hookup in Win XP, 1st used the gameport to USB adapter ( still do on the Daughter's /other machine ), and on this machine using add on soundcard with gameport, biggest setback is the easy batch file you can use to program your stick ( get it at CH-Hangar.com f website is still open? )
but if you are set to default and you ( for me anyways might not work for everyone ) you unplug your keyboard and insert the keyboard cable from your stick inbetween the keyboard cord and the socket on the back of your computer for the KB, then reboot it all should pick up fine, install the analog CH Drivers and go in to AH and program your buttons!!! pretty simple eh?
or use the batch file and program ya stick ala Speed Keys ( CH gameport stick software ) and never have to worry about it!!! NOTE* can only get full function on USB adapter via using speed keys software, I have found no other way......
would like to have the USB HOTAS rig, but if it ain't broke!!! well you know :)
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Originally posted by Mace2004
For those of you that like the X-52 (or don't like it's color scheme) you should check this out Click Here (http://www.touch-buddy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=350) . According to the boards this is the X-52Pro "concept" and they don't have a release date. It's reported to be all metal, the MFD is changed and provides more info, HAT 2 is changed from a "coolie hat" to a castle switch and the plastic spring base (the cone at the base of the spring) is metal. There's some discussion regarding making the spring tension adjustible. Looks to me like Saitek wants to kick some serious CH and Cougar butt.
They also are now showing a another new stick on the Saitek website. It doesn't have a separate throttle module but does have dual throttle control on the stick base.
Click Here (http://www.saitekusa.com/usa/prod/av8r.htm)
Mace
Well, as an ex-x45 owner (CH now) until they change the centering system from that compression spring mechanism they will never be able to compete with CH/Cougar. To me that is the biggest drawback to the Saitek gear.
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Well, as an ex-x45 owner (CH now) until they change the centering system from that compression spring mechanism they will never be able to compete with CH/Cougar. To me that is the biggest drawback to the Saitek gear.
So what is the problem you have with the spring? Too stiff (X-45 is cosiderably "stiffer" than the X-52)? Feel? Sticking? I didn't mind the stiff spring that much with my X-45 but what did become a problem was wear on the disk that caused it to stick when it got older. Had to grease it. The current X-52 has a much lighter spring that I've come to prefer. Very easy to make fine corrections with it (once I corrected a loose stick grip) I've never used a CH but understand from some that there is a definitive transition between pitch and roll axis due to the use of separate springs for each. Some say they like it and others don't. Personnally, I like the linear feel of the Saitek design. Not sure about all the differences between the Pro and X-52 but the pictures I've seen show two nested springs (one large with a smaller one inside) instead of one and they changed the disk to metal which would solve any wear problems. Looks like the two springs give you dual rate...probably the small one allows fine movements and the larger gives increased tension with larger displacements. I'm just guessing but have to assume there's a reason for two springs instead of just one. Many people are asking for Saitek to give it adjustible spring tension...hope they listen.
Also, I'm just curious but does CH use metal gimbals in the base or are they plastic? The Saitek's are all plastic with some brass bushings between the gimbal frames but I think the fact that the gimbals are plastic and the shaft is aluminum might cause some extra wear and so Saitek leaves a little bit more slop in the gimbal slot to improve life. Would be nice if the "Pro" was given all metal gimbals with bushings so they could have tighter tolerances. Believe the Cougar's are metal with bushings between the control shaft and the slots in the gimbals (I'm not sure about that, this may be one of the numerous "mods" the Cougar guys have to make like adding Hall sensors).
Mace
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for rudder pedals..chek out the simped vario pro model usb model at http://www.dhs-electronic.com. lusche turned me on to em and i've found them to be very smooth.
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srry the website is http://www.dhs-electronic.de/home.htm
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Really nice looking pedals, especially the F-16 version but HS! ... 270 Euro = $345! I'd have to assume that's plus shipping. Wow.
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Yeah that new all-metal X52 is tempting, but how much $$$??? The normal one already costs a bundle! At $120 USD plastic, I bet it's going to be $320 USD metal!
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Don't know about the dollars but it'll be more than the X-52 guaranteed. I can't remember the exact quote but they said something about it being a high-end looks, performance and cost. Looking again at the pictures, I'm not sure that it's actually "all metal"...maybe a better description is "more metal". The coolie and castle switches, base toggles, mode switch etc. appear to be metal but the actual cases appear to me to be the same (i.e., plastic) but it's only a picture. I'd have to believe the "dual-rate" spring system would be a performance improvement but there are some internal fit and material things (i.e., metal gimbals and bushings) that would need to be improved if they want to come up with a super accurate system. As far as cost is concerned the Cougar guys are paying something over $300 for theirs right? Then you have to add the hall sensors and a myriad of other improvements that guys are paying hundreds for. If Saitek improves the gimbals (and the X-52 already has the hall sensors) they could probably charge a lot more than the current price and be very competitive at the high end.
Mace
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I have owned every high end stick ever made. 2 or 3 of some of em. The CH USB HOTAS setup is the way to go if you have the $$$. I bought an X-52 about a year ago and it has held up extremely well and I put it 2nd only to the CH setup.
If Saitek ever made this stick with real gimbals, rudder pedals and more metal it just might de-throne the CH stuff.
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Saitek rudder pedals are out now I got some on order. Toe brakes, adjustible pedals and resistance, and about 4 inches wider than the CH ones. Style matches the X52. Right now they're running more than the CH's but the price will probably come down soon.
Mace