Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Krusty on August 25, 2006, 09:37:53 AM
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Okay the reason bombers have drones doesn't apply anymore. They are not this defenseless little thing that they used to be.
Last night was a PERFECT example of why bombers need drones revoked.
15K B24s were hitting a port. I'm in a TA152 flying toward them. I'm 15k as well. I'm on full WEP and I can't close into icon range until they turn around for another pass at the port. THEN I can barely keep up. I'm 1.5k out for 5+ minutes at full damn throttle, doing 350+ in a Ta152, and the bombers are as fast as I am! This is bullcrap!
Hell the B29 could barely do 350 steady! Yet every bomber in this game does well more than it ever did in any historical mission (EVER). Add to that the fact that any 1 bomber can fire up to 7 50cal guns in any direction, then multiply it by 3 (3 planes in formation) and you get 21 guns that kill instantly.
I came up on a bomber set last night and in a spit16, unloaded directly into the wing root of a lancaster. All I did was blow his bomb bay door of (rriiiiight, suuuuure... 80+ 20mm and the only thing that comes off is the bomb bay) and in his first ping, literally his first ping he gives me a pilot wound AND rips my tail off. Lag was nonexistent.
So you have bombers that are nearly impossible to catch when flying the planes that were best able to catch them in real life. You have bombers that are 4x more lethal than normal (up to 4 gun positions firing at target at any given time), multplied times 3 planes (12 times more lethal), and you have a problem with gameplay balance.
Bombers are unbalanced. They need to be slowed down, or stripped down.
I don't see us slowing the bombers down anytime soon. So we need to remove the formation option from bombers.
I've been on many HQ raids where the enemy were struggling to keep up. sure after 10-15 minutes they might kill you, but that's 10 minutes of constant chase.
I've been AFTER many HQ raids as well! Unless you're flying a Me163 at 650mph, there's often slim to no chance you can catch up to the enemy in a tail chase.
If this were the case, WW2 would have ended in 1942 with complete bomber supremacy going to the allies.
EDIT: Hell, or even ended in 1940 with complete bomber supremacy going to the axis!!
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How about a compremise Krusty...
Apply a Perk requirment for drone usage...
Except for those on the two week trial (either that or give them free perks to start with)
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I will agree with the point that bomber formations are too fast. Historically bombers flew slower to enable the pilots to more easily maintain tight formations. Not so in the game for your drones. I never understood how I could maintain full throttle through a turn, almost lose my drones, and yet they eventually catch up to me. Take away the "overspeed" option of the drones (including their ability to out-accelerate the single bomber). Lead must then slow down to maintain a tight formation. Problem solved.
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You obviously havent been chasing me lately. I have no problem getting shot down while in a bomber. Even with the many guns, I have seen many pilots successfully knock out a couple boxes and still land their kills.
I have to respectfully disagree with your proposition. I believe the AH2 people have gone to great lengths to simulate bomber formations. I have viewed many a show on the military channel about bombing runs during WWII. Most of the raids had no fewer than 40 planes. Since teamwork is rare in this game, I believe by adding drones the AH2 programmers are just trying to add an element of realism to the game.
If anything, maybe they should add a few drones to the formation. Wouldn't it be great to take 10-15 drones over a target and just wipe it off the map.
The only possible discrepancy with history is the target hit percentages. Very, very few bombing runs actually hit their targets with one pass. This is quite simple in this game. I am not suggesting to make the targetting process harder, I am simply pointing out the fact.
The reason they had to have such large formations is because accuracy was so poor back in the 1940's.
Sorry to ramble on, but I had some time to kill and I wanted to add my 2 cents.
Salute Krusty.
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Originally posted by E25280
Lead must then slow down to maintain a tight formation. Problem solved.
Dam thats a good idea, makes a lot of sense to me....
That way ppl who want to fly the pants off a Buff still can but they must do it with out Drones...
I like this idea so much that I vote this idea to be:
Best Buff Suggestion Of 2005
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Originally posted by mussie
I like this idea so much that I vote this idea to be:
Best Buff Suggestion Of 2005
What year is it down under?
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I agree with mussie.
Drop a perk on each drone ..ooh and lower the eny the higher the perk.
I'll give an example of why it need adding.
Was defending a gv base last night. Guy comes in with lancs drop hangers . Then proceeds to dive bomb remaining gvs. As soon as all gv were gone he bails out of buffs. 5-7 min later here comes the m3. I'll bet it was the same guy.
So yes perk the drones give em a reason to live.
Bronk
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Originally posted by doobs
What year is it down under?
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH CRAP
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Perks: That does nothing to stop the fact that folks with millions of bomber perks (and no desire to waste them on Ar234s) won't be affected in the least. The bombers will still be faster than 70% of the entire planeset at most atltitudes.
Drone overspeed: That doesn't really solve the problem either. The drones aren't really flying. They're on an invisible beam. They follow that beam better than any human pilot could. They turn tighter losing less E, that's how they get in there and stay with the pilot after a turn. When they lose an engine they fall behind fairly quickly.
The problem is that these planes are 12x as lethal as any single given bomber was in real life. They are 1000 times more accurate (and that's not so much a problem -- the balance is set up so no one bomber can shut down an airfield or HQ).
The problem is: Once level you cannot catch them. If you're within 1k range any single hit from the bomber gunners can kill you from any angle.
My suggestion (some time ago) was to give bombers a higher fuel burn, so they have to take more gas, and suffer flight performance, or they have to take less gas and cruise. 25% gas lasts an hour in the MA in the "big three" bomber set. Nobody seems to like that idea.
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Krusty :aok
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(Originally posted by E25280
Lead must then slow down to maintain a tight formation. Problem solved.)
Now that's good reading. Best idea that this player has seen on the boards regarding bombers. And everything Krusty says is too true. And I agree HT modeled the bomber formations the way he did, based on the historical difficulties involved in taking on "high altitude" formations of bombers. Of course in the game buff pilots use this (certainly when adding a competent gunner) to create this three ship leviathon that can out pace and out gun persuing interceptors. Not good. Short of removing them altogether however, slowing the drones down ( so lead must do so to keep tight ) AND perking them will certainly help even this out some.
As it is now, it's hardly worth engaging buffs if they have any range and\or alt. advantage. It's damaging a huge part of the game in it's core essance as a WWII Airwar game.
$.02 in.
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As it is now, it's hardly worth engaging buffs if they have any range and\or alt. advantage. It's damaging a huge part of the game in it's core essance as a WWII Airwar game.
Stampf in my own opinion I think your statment is a bit excessive....
A while back I was upping from a field and as I was leaving the ground a flight of 24's at 25 K were dropping.
I made chase F4-U4 and caught up to him about 25 minutes later, I got all three and glided back home....
Was it worth it Not really was it satisfying HELL YEAH.....
Dive bombing buffs
Suicide Buff runs into CV's
Buffs dropping ord through their frames
Buff and Fighters running on full military power all day
Fighters with effectivly unlimited Wep
All of the above damage the game (at least the immersion factor)
But drones dont, they add imersion to it....
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Attack the bombers from high and from the front or one of the sides. You will make minemeat of the all 3 bombers. Rinse and Repeat. Problem solved.
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Originally posted by Stampf
(Originally posted by E25280
As it is now, it's hardly worth engaging buffs if they have any range and\or alt. advantage. It's damaging a huge part of the game in it's core essance as a WWII Airwar game.
$.02 in.
Restated.
As of now, its hardly worth engaging fighters if they have any range and\or alt. advantage.
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
Attack the bombers from high and from the front or one of the sides. You will make minemeat of the all 3 bombers. Rinse and Repeat. Problem solved.
You miss the point, BlueJ.
If you're already above them, already in front of them, fine, sure, whatever. If you've got alt on ANYTHING you can catch it.
The problem is that one of THE FASTEST and MOST LETHAL planes ever designed is unable to catch B24s at full throttle, from co alt and co-E situation. Then after 20 minutes if it can close in past 1k distance it has to fire 50+ 30mm and 100+ 20mm to make a flap fall off, whereas the bombers just fire a single burst and kill the plane.
The system is very unbalanced. I've only run across bombers from head-on, with more E, or from high above in 10% of all the cases I've seen them in the past.. oh... 2 years. I consistently get more bomber kills than any type (b24s, b17s, lancs). It's not like I have no experience in the matter. I have lots of experience, and 90% of it is the same old rehashed problem: they're too damned fast. Gunners are too damned lethal.
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(Stampf in my own opinion I think your statment is a bit excessive....
A while back I was upping from a field and as I was leaving the ground a flight of 24's at 25 K were dropping.
I made chase F4-U4 and caught up to him about 25 minutes later, I got all three and glided back home....
Was it worth it Not really was it satisfying HELL YEAH.....)
I respect your opinion sir but as you said yourself, I used "worth it" myself, not "satisfying". All kills are satisfying to me.
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350??? which friggin uber buffs do you guys have? My B24's will hardly exceed 250 true after a long, level acceleration period.
I have no trouble getting shot down in my buffs. A single good pilot in a 190 or even a pony will take me out every time...all three of me.
A single buff would be a sitting duck.
Conversely, I have no problems catching buffs at alt either. Yeah, it can take some time to climb to them if they are really high, but once I've decided to go after some buffs, I've never failed to catch them. Whether or not I kill them all is another story, but that's more to do with my flying than anything.
No, the three buff formation is fine and isn't uber by any means.
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When attacking bombers from their 6. Just send some ammo into the drones. Then remove one winting from the main bomber. The main bomber will spiral down in a way that the drones will explode. You will recieve all three kills. Works best when your alone or with a wingman. Not in a gang of fighters going for the bombers.
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Originally posted by Stampf
(Stampf in my own opinion I think your statment is a bit excessive....
A while back I was upping from a field and as I was leaving the ground a flight of 24's at 25 K were dropping.
I made chase F4-U4 and caught up to him about 25 minutes later, I got all three and glided back home....
Was it worth it Not really was it satisfying HELL YEAH.....)
I respect your opinion sir but as you said yourself, I used "worth it" myself, not "satisfying". All kills are satisfying to me.
right back at ya Stampf
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You have to remember that many times a defending fighter attacks the buffs, and if he gets shot down, he often can re-engage the bombers again on their way out. Add 163s and 262s to the mix and its even worse.
Bombers are a big part of the game. Although when we are defending against them we like to think we could destroy evey one of the attackers without a loss to ourselves. As much as the defender hates losing his fighter to the tail guns, of a formation, the bomber guy hates losing his bombers. You both spent time flying there afterall.
I think it works fine as it is. A good example is some guys always attack dead 6 and slow. They usually die. The ones I find hard to hit attack at odd angles. Often I lose all 3 to 1 good fighter.
As for formations..when we do a mission we usually reduce manifold to 40-45 so stragglers can keep up. There always seems to be one or two that fall behind even with all the same loads, flaps up, full throttle.
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Uh oh... The Lavochkins already getting to you Krusty??
:t
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Again I'm with Krusty on this. Unless I'm going specifically Buff hunting meaning I've upped gotten to 25 k and am loitering around a field looking for that specific shot I've only managed to kill one formation thus far and frankly I suspect the pilot was noob enough that he didn't know what to do as he had already dropped ord and didn't fire back at me. Any competant buff driver is going to tear me apart for looking in his general direction. Again I'm pretty noob so my experience might be playing into this one but Krusty is obviously experiencing some of the same things that I have and he's a much more accomplished flyer than I am.
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Originally posted by AKWarp
350??? which friggin uber buffs do you guys have? My B24's will hardly exceed 250 true after a long, level acceleration period.
I have no trouble getting shot down in my buffs. A single good pilot in a 190 or even a pony will take me out every time...all three of me.
A single buff would be a sitting duck.
Conversely, I have no problems catching buffs at alt either. Yeah, it can take some time to climb to them if they are really high, but once I've decided to go after some buffs, I've never failed to catch them. Whether or not I kill them all is another story, but that's more to do with my flying than anything.
No, the three buff formation is fine and isn't uber by any means.
I checked the speedometer 3 times. It was 350 TAS at 15k. In the past week I've been critically injured by bomber gunners at 800d on the first ping a LOT.
I'm not saying I can survive in a bomber any longer than you can. I'm saying that when chasing them they are impossible to catch in a tail chase, they are far FAR far more lethal than any WW2 fighter ever had to contend with while intercepting them (in real life). If they're going to run around nigh unstoppable and nigh uncatchable, the drones need to be revoked.
If there are friendlies ahead of them radio alerts are the best thing, but folks off to the side, behind, or below them will not catch them unless they're still climbing (and thus, slower).
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Also,
Wait until the buffs to reach their target. Once at their target they will go into F6 and not bebale to defend themselves. 99% of the time they wont have a gunner. Or wait until the bomber pilot leaves x or alt x to fly around. Then attack.
\And, when making you approah. Do not go within 1.5k unless your attacking. Flying behind the bombers and not doing anything but that within 1.5k and it wont be long before you find yourself dead.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I checked the speedometer 3 times. It was 350 TAS at 15k. In the past week I've been critically injured by bomber gunners at 800d on the first ping a LOT.
I'm not saying I can survive in a bomber any longer than you can. I'm saying that when chasing them they are impossible to catch in a tail chase, they are far FAR far more lethal than any WW2 fighter ever had to contend with while intercepting them (in real life). If they're going to run around nigh unstoppable and nigh uncatchable, the drones need to be revoked.
If there are friendlies ahead of them radio alerts are the best thing, but folks off to the side, behind, or below them will not catch them unless they're still climbing (and thus, slower).
Dont attack them alone. 2 pilots can easily take down a bomber formation. Even from dead 6.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
You have to remember that many times a defending fighter attacks the buffs, and if he gets shot down, he often can re-engage the bombers again on their way out.
Filth I don't think so. First, that doesn't have much to do with it, because if there's a bunch of fighters on a bomber formation it doesn't matter who reups, the ones already up are still there. If somebody reups what's the difference between them dying, going elsewhere, and somebody new taking off? That's not an issue. Bombers will have to deal with fighters. It doesn't matter if they're the same ones or not.
Secondly, a bomber set at 15k will be 2 sectors away by the time a con takes off and climbs back up to re-engage them. A fighter has to climb up. And then the fighter that is climbing up is too low and slow to engage. Then it has to tail chase. The top speed of these bombers (when level) is absurd.
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Uh oh... The Lavochkins already getting to you Krusty??
:t
That's not til next tour!
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BlueJ, don't take this the wrong way. I'm not ignorant. I've killed more bombers than fighters since... since forever. I'm pretty decent at killing them. I'm not asking for tips or hints.
I'm pointing out a major flaw in the game balance between bombers and fighters that chase them.
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Originally posted by Krusty
BlueJ, don't take this the wrong way. I'm not ignorant. I've killed more bombers than fighters since... since forever. I'm pretty decent at killing them. I'm not asking for tips or hints.
I'm pointing out a major flaw in the game balance between bombers and fighters that chase them.
They werent directed at you.
Only the last one was.
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Bombers in general fall into many categories so the B-24 can best be described as average when compared to its peers. Speed is not all that outstanding, 234mph at sea-level, gaining about 2-3mph/1K of altitude gain. Consider that by the time you get to 10K speed increases to 262mph, by 20K it’s ~290mph, and it tops out at 301mph at 29K.
Taken from here http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/B24J.htm (http://members.shaw.ca/soda_p/B24J.htm)
You can also go here and compare the sppeds of bombers in the game. Its missing the B-24.
http://www.netaces.org/ahmain/siteframe2.html#title (http://www.netaces.org/ahmain/siteframe2.html#title)
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in AH, last night, at 15k, I was in a tail chase after some B24s. I was doing 350 (TAS) and the range was NOT closing. I only ended up closing because he turned around twice to hit the target again.
I'm not making this up! [EDIT: Sehob went after the same guy, he can vouch how frickin' fast he was going. My squady Brogy can vouch for all the swearing I did at how fast this guy was.]
The AH fighter chart page needs to expand to include speed/climb for bombers! That might open folks' eyes a bit.
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Well if you factor in HT desire for us to work together as a TEAM then the 3 buff formation is fine as is.
Origianlly and i may be mistaken here. HT desighned it so that taking out the 3 buffs would be harder for a single pilot. in WWII it took whole squadrens to take out buff formations not a single guy!
And there are certain "tricks that im sure we are all aware of to kill the bombers.
i understand where your comming from krusty and I do think some things with bombers needs to be addressed like the dive bombing thru their frames and dive bombing in a buff in general.
they couldnt do it in IRL and they shouldnt do it here.
Ofcourse im of the opinion that we should have the bomb skipping ability here as well, saw it on the military channel again the other night.
If bombers are at high alt its going to take awhile to catch em but, i've never seen bombers flying at 350+
If your going after bombers with a group and its just to "get the kill" and everybody is wanting to beat the other guy to get the scores, then your working against each other BUT, if your defending a base and you work together like one guy drawing fire while the others kill the buffs you will efectivly stop the raid and the base will live.
The hard part is getting people to work together fro the greater good...sounds cheesy i know but it is true. bombers can only shoot 1 target maybe 2 if they have a gunner with em at any given time. If you have 5 guys going after them and 2 are the bait that leaves 3 fighters to attack the bombers unmolested.
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i AGREE WITH AK i never can turn at a great speed without lossing at least 1 drone sometimes 2 ,and all the planes seem to catch me p40s hurris spits whatever they are,could this have been a lag issue on your or j=his part?
we will never have complete balance in the game as far as buff pilots vs fighter pilots but niether did the allied and axis during ww2 thats how a war is won 1 gets the upper hand in military power and stratigic plans!!!!!! just a buff pilots 2 cents
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Wildcard: If I recall he said he didn't want any one bomber to take out anything, so he wanted teamwork for the bombers. Fighters are fighters.
Also most folks don't fight each other for the bombers. It's a semi-organized group attack on them, and whoever gets them we congratulate (I do, at least, and I've heard others do it) -- we just want them dead regardless of who killed them. This is for Knights. Bish/Rook may vary.
To everyone that doesn't believe me: How many times have you been in a FAST plane, and pulled alongside a bomber set trying to get in front of it? I have many times. You have to sit there at 1.5k off the bombers' wings and wait.. and wait... and wait... you NEVER get in front of them. It takes 5 minutes or more. Then if you DO get in front of them you have to go out 3K before you turn back at them because they're going so damned fast they cover 3K distance in a matter of 5 seconds (I'm not kidding) they come up at you so fast you don't have time to turn around and aim. If you don't, you have to start the "fly alongside" thing again, and wait... and wait.. and wait... Just to get ahead of them.
They are too fast. They have been for years. It's time something was done.
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Short answer; because if HT made buffs difficult, only a small percentage of the players would fly them, and the whines, just like when the calibration was made more difficult for a few months, would be deafening. They would be relegated to hangar guard duty, and the emails and phone calls HTC received from players threatening to quit would bury them, and derail any and all other work being performed.
Super Buffs may be bad for gameplay, but they're good for business. We won't be seeing any changes soon, IMO.
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krusty you going to be on tonight?
I had a thought that I'll up from a base away from the fighting.. climb to say 15k and you pick a base I'll fly over. And you come get me I'll stay at consistant max throttle and let's film it.
Thoughts?
I've got squad op at 11 Eastern but other than that I'm not busy from 7 ish central to 11.
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I might be. However DA might be a better place. I don't know if I'll be on for sure. It's going to be a late day at work for me. I might not be on til tomorrow or Sunday.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Short answer; because if HT made buffs difficult, only a small percentage of the players would fly them, and the whines, just like when the calibration was made more difficult for a few months, would be deafening. They would be relegated to hangar guard duty, and the emails and phone calls HTC received from players threatening to quit would bury them, and derail any and all other work being performed.
Super Buffs may be bad for gameplay, but they're good for business. We won't be seeing any changes soon, IMO.
DING!!!!! DING!!!!!!!! DING!!!!
We have a winna.
Bronk
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Okay I can see making the bombers "survivable" -- but this is like making bombers into the tempest of the fighters! You don't have to turn, just run as fast as you can and you're safe. You shoot anything and one hit means death!
This isn't "survivable" -- this is "uber". If you take away the drones you cut their defensive firepower to 1/3, but that's still 4 times more guns shooting at any given target than did in history. That's still going faster than any bomber flew in combat in history. Removing the drones lessens the impact, but the bombers are still "survivable" -- they simply lose the "uber" title.
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This right here proves that the game is turning into a furballs paridice. Guys complain about "lazer" guns but half the time you fighters attack us straigt on 6 what do u think is going to happen? I my self love bombers and are in them mot every day and i know for a fact that if my buffs are attacked properly the con is very hard to shoot down but when 95% of the aream climb up to me in the la7 and spit 16 at 15- 20k sitting on my 6 its a easy kill for me.If your complaining abot getting shot down by a buff u most likely didnt attak it properly couse if u do attack a buff proply its vertully impossible to get shot down inless the buff guners is absolutly amazing. "This is in my own oppion".
Now about the 350 mph buffs did the buffs dive in from a higher alt.. what kinda buffs were they. I mean when im up at 20k in my 24s i push right around 290ish mph. But ur right a normal bomber cant go 350 mph might be something fishy there:noid
Boys thats jsut my imput
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Hey Krusty
I haven't experienced this. I fly Spit 16's most of the time and have never had any trouble catching or killing bombers (when I actually hit the target that is). This week I caught and killed a set of 24's in 3 passes. However, I do see what your are saying. If a level fighter doing 320 -350 TAS is chasing a bomber box that is say 7K out, it should take less than 10 minutes to catch them. Assuming a 100MPH difference in airspeed. A 100mph difference in airspeed = 1.66 mile gain/minute. 7k is about 4 miles, so it should take about 6.5 minutes to catch the bombers. It would be interesting to test this at some rear base in the MA. Take up a set of 24's and have someone chase in a fighter. You can compare TAS and check the rate of closure to see if it is a problem or perseption.
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goldelocks, I get pissed at bombers even when I take no damage. It's not a matter of "I'm mad because I was shot down". I'm mad because the bombers are too fast and too lethal.
The bombers were B24s. 15k They were level for at least 30 minutes, because they shot down sehob before I got there, they flew away from me for 10 minutes more, then for another 10 minutes of chasing them inside icon range. The problem with your argument, goldelocks, is that you have to (by circumstance) be already over, and in front, of the bombers to make "a proper attack". If they are already at your alt, already at speed, and flying away from you on any angle you can spend 20+ minutes setting up "the proper attack" -- only if you miss you have wasted 20 minutes and the bombers are now 2 sectors closer to the target, or 2 sectors closer to 50+ cons that will help them out as they land, or whatever.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I might be. However DA might be a better place. I don't know if I'll be on for sure. It's going to be a late day at work for me. I might not be on til tomorrow or Sunday.
The only reason I suggested the MA is to be sure we're on realistic settings. PM me when you want to do it be it tonight or tomorrow and we'll work something out because now I'm genuinely curious
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I just did the math. A bomber (or plane) doing 350mph will cover a 25-mile-wide sector in less than 5 minutes. If your attack setup and execution (because you're in a tail chase) takes 20 minutes that means the bomber has crossed 4 sectors and you're probably out of WEP and gas by then, all for 1 attack setup. THAT is why there are so many dead-6 attacks.
Target, there are some bombers that are slower, because they were climbing out and only leveled at the last minute. I myself (when bombing) will slow down to equalize my speed faster, often dropping bombs at 200mph max (less time to wait for speed to even out). Those are easily caught, for sure. However if you catch a con that's level and arrived on the scene already level, you won't catch him unless he's heading toward you.
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Originally posted by AKWarp
350??? which friggin uber buffs do you guys have? My B24's will hardly exceed 250 true after a long, level acceleration period.
I have no trouble getting shot down in my buffs. A single good pilot in a 190 or even a pony will take me out every time...all three of me.
A single buff would be a sitting duck.
Conversely, I have no problems catching buffs at alt either. Yeah, it can take some time to climb to them if they are really high, but once I've decided to go after some buffs, I've never failed to catch them. Whether or not I kill them all is another story, but that's more to do with my flying than anything.
No, the three buff formation is fine and isn't uber by any means.
Unless somebody is putting RATO units on those b-24s, I can't see how they get up to 350 in level flight. If your having trouble catching them in a Ta-152, I'd be looking at the Ta-152 flight model to see whats up....
EagleDNY
$.02
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Again. I was full WEP for 10 minutes chasing these guys. I ran out toward the end. I was doing 350 TAS at 15k, and they would only barely get closer after a long time (maybe a 10mph closure rate).
don't confuse TAS and IAS.
EDIT: It was APDrone, ask him how fast he was going.
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Originally posted by Krusty
in AH, last night, at 15k, I was in a tail chase after some B24s. I was doing 350 (TAS) and the range was NOT closing. I only ended up closing because he turned around twice to hit the target again.
I'm not making this up! [EDIT: Sehob went after the same guy, he can vouch how frickin' fast he was going. My squady Brogy can vouch for all the swearing I did at how fast this guy was.]
The AH fighter chart page needs to expand to include speed/climb for bombers! That might open folks' eyes a bit.
I might have it filmed, Krusty. I'll have to check. If so, I'll put it up on the web and post the link in here somewhere.
I think the whole speed issue may be because most likely everybody is running full throttle all the time. No concern for engine overheating and such.
So, if bombers have a bit more power in the 'redline' zone than normal fighters, I can see where there may be some speed issues.
Also, by the time you caught up to me, I only had 5 or 6x 500lbs left per craft, so I was semi-light. I also was running on reduced fuel load ( I never up a B24 with 100% gas.. the constant stall buzzer on auto-climb is bad enough at 75% ) I normally take off with 50%.
BTW.. very nice form on slicing away at me, however, my gunnery was horrid.. you shouldn't have survived.
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Limiting the ability to dive bomb with them is, IMO, all that's really needed.
I fly the 110-g2 alot and buff hunting with it is one of the things that I have a lot of fun doing. The 110 isn't a speed deamon but with patients, good angles and gunnery, killing bomber formations is easy and fun.
IMO, if you die a lot trying to kill buffs then you need to change tactics. If you are having a hard time catching buffs then you are, in most cases, not choosing the proper merge angle. Chasing down buffs from an alt disadvantage is only going to work if you have the patients to turn that advantage around.
Buffs aren't the problem, it's the tactics of the attacker that determine the outcome, IMO.
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(http://members.optusnet.com.au/vstrom/Tour_78_and_79_AH_BUFF_Durability.jpg)
Here are the Tour 79 and 78 stats for Formation Capable Buffs vs all models, make of it what you will.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Okay the reason bombers have drones doesn't apply anymore. They are not this defenseless little thing that they used to be.
Last night was a PERFECT example of why bombers need drones revoked.
15K B24s were hitting a port. I'm in a TA152 flying toward them. I'm 15k as well. I'm on full WEP and I can't close into icon range until they turn around for another pass at the port. THEN I can barely keep up. I'm 1.5k out for 5+ minutes at full damn throttle, doing 350+ in a Ta152, and the bombers are as fast as I am! This is bullcrap!
Hell the B29 could barely do 350 steady! Yet every bomber in this game does well more than it ever did in any historical mission (EVER). Add to that the fact that any 1 bomber can fire up to 7 50cal guns in any direction, then multiply it by 3 (3 planes in formation) and you get 21 guns that kill instantly.
I came up on a bomber set last night and in a spit16, unloaded directly into the wing root of a lancaster. All I did was blow his bomb bay door of (rriiiiight, suuuuure... 80+ 20mm and the only thing that comes off is the bomb bay) and in his first ping, literally his first ping he gives me a pilot wound AND rips my tail off. Lag was nonexistent.
So you have bombers that are nearly impossible to catch when flying the planes that were best able to catch them in real life. You have bombers that are 4x more lethal than normal (up to 4 gun positions firing at target at any given time), multplied times 3 planes (12 times more lethal), and you have a problem with gameplay balance.
Bombers are unbalanced. They need to be slowed down, or stripped down.
I don't see us slowing the bombers down anytime soon. So we need to remove the formation option from bombers.
I've been on many HQ raids where the enemy were struggling to keep up. sure after 10-15 minutes they might kill you, but that's 10 minutes of constant chase.
I've been AFTER many HQ raids as well! Unless you're flying a Me163 at 650mph, there's often slim to no chance you can catch up to the enemy in a tail chase.
If this were the case, WW2 would have ended in 1942 with complete bomber supremacy going to the allies.
EDIT: Hell, or even ended in 1940 with complete bomber supremacy going to the axis!!
Learn how to engage bombers and you won't have any problems with them when you encounter them.
ack-ack
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Unfortunately, Mussie, without discounting bails, augers, deaths to ack, deaths to explosions, vehicle fire, CV guns, etc, that info isn't very useful.
Consider the guys like Fortress and Giganto who come in on the deck, salvo all the bombs, then bail out or dive into the ground, and the guys who'll send wave after wave of formations into the side of a fleet to sink the carrier, or the guys who use formations to lure the vulchers into wasting all their ammo, or the guys who'd up bombers at a vulched field en masse to break that same vulch. There are a lot of bomber deaths that fall well outside a simple a2a engagement at altitude between a few fighters and a formation.
Just saying.
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What do you all think of the idea of single buffs but a dam site tougher...?
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Originally posted by mussie
What do you all think of the idea of single buffs but a dam site tougher...?
:huh
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Unfortunately, Mussie, without discounting bails, augers, deaths to ack, deaths to explosions, vehicle fire, CV guns, etc, that info isn't very useful.
Consider the guys like Fortress and Giganto who come in on the deck, salvo all the bombs, then bail out or dive into the ground, and the guys who'll send wave after wave of formations into the side of a fleet to sink the carrier, or the guys who use formations to lure the vulchers into wasting all their ammo, or the guys who'd up bombers at a vulched field en masse to break that same vulch. There are a lot of bomber deaths that fall well outside a simple a2a engagement at altitude between a few fighters and a formation.
Just saying.
Damit Hub
Again Your comments are clear well thoughtout and unfortunatly I have to agree correct (so much for the last 20 minutes compiling that data)
Hub (or who ever the hell you are :p )
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Learn how to engage bombers and you won't have any problems with them when you encounter them.
ack-ack
As I said to BlueJ, this isn't a matter od "learn how to kill them".
The entire point of this thread is that they are too capable, regardless of how many I kill I'm still going to be royally pissed off that I had to chase one bomber for 150 miles just to catch up to it. That's not counting engaging it and shooting it down.
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
:huh
My thoughts were along the lines of atmosphere...
You get shot to ****e and struggle to get the smoking creaking shell of what was once a B-17 back to base....
I always find that fun (look ma no engines)
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I don't believe Krusty when he says the bombers were going 350 at 15k. Not even at 25k can the b24 go that fast. Unless it's in a dive then I guess it can sustain a speed of 350, but not for long.
I like the idea of having to have a reduce throttle setting if you choose to up in a formation and want to keep it tight.
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I'm tellin' ya! I was doing 350TAS in a TA152 and was not closing for a long long time. I was following his dot before he came into icon range, and he only did that because he turned 180 degrees. Then I got in close but could barely do anything because he was so fast.
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I'm tellin' ya! I was doing 350TAS in a TA152 and was not closing for a long long time. I was following his dot before he came into icon range, and he only did that because he turned 180 degrees. Then I got in close but could barely do anything because he was so fast. I think sehob heard me swearing about how fast they were, too.
EDIT: I think the formation throttle-back idea has merit. As long as it doesn't affect max climb, only level speed.
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There it is in a nut shell. TAS vs. IAS.
As for catching up to my buffs? I never seem to have a problem being caught by fighters. Or catching up to a formation and passing them if I am in a fighter. But if you expect to spot a formation from the ground, climb up to 15K and IF you catch them and don't expect to get your spinner shot off, guess again.
You want to shoot down buffs? Start and co-altitude or higher and use tactics. If I have dropped my ords and got noob fighters chasing me, I go into a slow descent to get that extra speed and run for friendlies. Yeah, I can get 300+ IAS, but take a buff up and try to dive to 350 IAS. You can't. The lift will overcome your control input and you will level off or rip apart. Shooting down buffs is easy if you use your head and don't rush it like I see so many do. The fighter jocks that use tactics and don't rush kill me every time. So much for lazer guns and all those guns fireing at once.
I think you just went up against a smart buff pilot that was higher than you and ya couldn't catch him.
LTARsqrl <>
P.S. I am a GV driver not a Buff Jock and even I know this. And if you fly smarter than the enemy, you will win no matter what your in.
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In a slight dive I have held a B-24 in the High 300's IIRC
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Mad this was co alt, and it's not the first time. This is just the perfect example of what happens 90% of the time.
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Just do what I do. Ignore buffs most of the time.
Krusty btw..you using the LAs atm? Ive been practicing in the 202..Im 27/18 atm. In certain light conditions I feel like Im aiming blind.
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Neg filth I'm going to wait til the tour changes to better track kills/deaths.
C202 is a nice little bird. My only claim to fame is landing 10 kills in one (reloading once) in FT, mixing it up in furballs.
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Krusty is right that the bomber speeds are high - I believe this is because we are all running around on full mil throttle settings the entire flight instead of climbing out and throttling back to a cruise setting to save enough fuel to get home. Realize however that the fighter jocks are doing this as well, and that their speeds to target are artificially high as well.
Interception is just that - INTERCEPTION. Tail chasing is the worst possible angle from which to intercept, for just the reason that Krusty outlines - a long chase to get in range, and you get a face-full of MG fire when you finally do catch up. Frankly, if I'm intercepting a bomber raid, I'm hoping to do it from head on - if I'm lucky I get a cockpit shot on the lead bomber.
Good bomber interception takes a little planning - which is probably why there is so little of it. Last night I busted at 3 x Ar-234s heading S towards our port at 15K about 3 sectors out. We were co-alt (I was in a Tiffie, low fuel, but he didnt know that), so I cut West in front of him and he diverted W as well since my speed clean at WEP was close enough to get me a shot if kept on coming. I ran him a sector west, ran out of gas and bailed - but by then I knew where he was, and where he was heading.
So I up a 262, and fly to the sector N of his target climbing up to 17K. Sure enough, here he comes flying S towards the port... quick dive down, 30mm across the wings, and boom - no more Ar-234s.
Admittedly - we don't have a bevy of forward air controllers calling out bomber position, course, speed, & alt for half an hour before the interception takes place. If we did, the battle would go a bit more realistically because you'd be sitting there above them when the bomber stream showed up. Since we are intercepting "on the fly", maybe it's better to get in the habit of calling out the bomber info for a while before you engage to give others in your country the opportunity to get into position. If your countrymen get into the same habit, then they give you the opportunity to get into a better position as well.
If you don't have the time because the bombers are too close to target, you just have to engage and take your chances. A single fighter facing a load of .50 cal isn't pretty, but there it is. There are angles that make it tough on the bomber, so try to attack from one. The bomber driver isn't saying to himself "oh boy, here comes another fighter for me to kill" (not unless he's certifiably insane...), even if he has his drones with him.
The drones give him an even shot to get you, which he really doesn't have if it is just one bomber vs one fighter. I don't think the answer is to drop drones from the buffs - buffs are easy meat without drones. So easy, that I think we lose the level buff drivers from the game if they can't up a formation of 3 to at least give them a chance to fight off a single fighter.
Damn... long enough post for you?
EagleDNY
$.02
:D
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Looking at AH's aircraft speed profiles (look on the main AH page under Game Info) max speed for a B-17G is about 300 MPH True at 30k. Max speed at 15k is about 270; however, these are Maximum speeds achieved at "military power", not Maximum Continuous (or "cruise" speed) which would be much slower. But here's another "however", AH fighters are not limited in the duration of their "military power" (i.e., full throttle, no WEP) times. There should be a time/temp limitation to Mil for both fighters and bombers but we don't so I'd say it's a wash since neither bombers nor fighters are limited in using maximum power and therefore cruising at Max speed.
EDIT: looks like Eagle and I were on the same wavelength at the same time :-)
As far as having a difficult time intercepting bombers at altitude...welcome to geometry, density altitude and RL. An aircraft at altitude at high speed has a huge advantage over interceptors, even ones with a major speed advantage, trust me, I have some experience with this. While there are several reasons, the biggest is geometry. The more forward-quarter the intercept is the easier it is; however, if you're behind his wingline you are at a major disadvantage exactly as you are in RL. If you're co-alt, dead 6 on him at 6k you're 3 miles behind him. If you have a 100 mph advantage in speed it'll still take you at least 5 minutes to overtake him even if you can maintain the 100mph advantage the whole time. That's a long time. Also, most people I see think that an intercept means you point your nose at the guy (i.e., pure pursuit). Not true. You have to take a cutoff vector and put your nose well in front of the Buff to get there in the shortest period of time otherwise you're just putting yourself in a tail chase. You're also in thinner air which means you don't turn as well, have less power and bleed e faster all of which makes intercepts more difficult. I also think that a lot of your observations are based on perception, not hard data. The distance countdown is very course (i.e., goes from 6k to 5k, doesn't show 5,900; 5,800; 5,700; etc.) so it gives the impression that there is no closure, it's there, it's just small. Closure is also much less than you EXPECT to see, hey, you're in a high-speed uber fighter and he's just a Buff, right? Face it, if you're behind his wingline it's going to take time..lots of time, that's life and physics.
Bottom line is what we have performance wise is relatively accurate and the bomber formations are realistic. Just as in RL, intercepting Buffs has more to do with geometry and altitude than anything else. The key is get ahead of and above the Buff and prosecute your attack from there (diving from directly above also keeps you away from most of those nasty little .50cals). I have 114 Buff kills this tour, only been killed by bombers 12 times and 95% of my kills are in a Hurri 2C. Bombers don't seem too fast or powerful to me.
All that said, I'd be all for finding a way to stop Lancstukas and reimplementing the full calibration requirements including target altitude, tracking a ground tgt, etc. It would also be nice if someone could figure out how to severely penalize those that bail immediately after their bombing run (or when they're about to get jumped). The .50cal's don't bother me, it's the fact that these bomber bozos are so gamey.
Mace
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Decent sized post. You forget, however, that Bombers didn't get formations until AH2 came out. Before then they enjoyed enormous success with single-planes. Folks actually teamed up in 2-man groups and had fun.
I disagree entirely that bombers without drones are helpless. They are still more than a match for any fighter that isn't already ahead of them and higher than them -- and even a B5N attacking from there can get a kill! (*that's a joke, kid, these are the jokes!*)
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Originally posted by Krusty
Decent sized post. You forget, however, that Bombers didn't get formations until AH2 came out. Before then they enjoyed enormous success with single-planes. Folks actually teamed up in 2-man groups and had fun.
I disagree entirely that bombers without drones are helpless. They are still more than a match for any fighter that isn't already ahead of them and higher than them -- and even a B5N attacking from there can get a kill! (*that's a joke, kid, these are the jokes!*)
We had formations in AH1.
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I remember taking formations in AH1 Krusty.
Am I getting my memories mixed up?
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
I remember taking formations in AH1 Krusty.
Am I getting my memories mixed up?
No.
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We had pinpoint accuracy, and no formations when I played AH1. And as has been pointed out, we managed to do just fine. My squad would often up 3-6 plane strikes and coordinate drops, and we fared well enough to continue flying them. In missions on the scale that I see today, even single planes with moderately capable pilots could perform just as well.
IIRC, formations were added fairly late in the game, as we were supposed to have lessened accuracy, and formations were intended to introduce carpet bombing to replace the laser guided munitions we'd been using til then. However, once the Norden sight was killed, we were back to the same accuracy, except the 3 bombs fell in a triangle, instead of one bomb hitting dead center.
A tactic that works well with bombers is going to the auto climb mode, and setting your speed just above the max level speed. The formation will enter and maintain a shallow dive, allowing you to maintain higher speeds.
And fighters are limited, albeit slightly, in WEP duration. The cutoff is either timing or temperature, depending on the plane, IINM, whereas buffs, with the sole exception of the B26, can run WFO indefinitely.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
And fighters are limited, albeit slightly, in WEP duration. The cutoff is either timing or temperature, depending on the plane, IINM, whereas buffs, with the sole exception of the B26, can run WFO indefinitely.
WEP, Mil power and Max continuous are all different things. Yes, any plane in AH that has WEP has a limited duration but that should also apply to Mil power which is full throttle but without WEP. Mil is limited because at these power settings the engine will eventually overheat and wear is much higher. Max Continuous power is that best that the engine can do without exceeding mechanical limits over extended periods of time and is usually quite a bit lower than Mil power. The discrepancy with AH is that all aircraft can run at Mil indefinently but since all the planes can do it I don't think it really matters.
Mace
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I don't think it's the formations that are the problem, its that the bomb sights are laser accurate and there isn't any crosswind, flak bouncing, or cloud cover to inhibit dropping the bomb into the pickle barrel every time.
From 15K (thats almost 3 MILES folks), bombs should spread out side-to-side quite a bit before impact. Instead, we see a laser straight line of bomber destruction. This same effect is what dooms an AH2 CV when a level bomber flies over, despite the RL experience that level bombers were lousy a hitting a moving target.
I think cloud cover would be good improvement as well - not the hazy layer we have at 15K, but some actual broken, thick clouds at varying altitudes over the world, which actually move with the wind (wow, wind, what a concept...). Buff drivers might even like the ability to dive into some cloud cover now and again, and you might even sneak a CV around in a weather front.
EagleDNY
$.02
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What AkAk said. Last night I for the longest time I couldn't find a fighter v fighter fight anywhere. It was a choice of vulching or being vulched or going after bombers. I chose to go after bombers. I killed (and got killed by) B-24's, B-26's, B-17's and Lancs that ranged in altitude from on the deck to 15-18k. I never had a problem catching them low or high. Even when having to climb up 10k+ to them I had no problem catching them, it just took a little time. As for buff gun lethality and accuracy: don't present a steady target to them. Cut across his 3-9 line and vary your rate of climb &/or dive when you attack them so he has a harder time figuring out where and how much to lead his shot. The only times I get nailed hard by buff gunners is when I don't make it hard for them to hit me, which unfortunately I don't do nearly enough.
Some hints: On the B-24's aim for the wing roots. They burn easy and you can let the timer do it's work to get the kill for you once he's on fire and do the same to the drones.
On Lancs, hit them from below and aim for the tail or where the wings meet the outside engines, they break easy.
On B-26's and B-17's - cockpit shots are what's needed here. Head on attacks work well enough if you can shoot half decently (which I can't ), but so do slashing attacks from above.
On all attacks on bombers keep your speed up and when you get close you can do some hard maneuvering to get some good hits in. The closer you are, the harder it is for a gunner to keep his guns on you when you're maneuvering. Just make sure you don't get slow or predictable.
Oh and just one more thing, just because bombers are big, slow, unmaneuverable, easy to hit targets doesn't mean they aren't dangerous, so remember to keep the ON/OFF switch on your brain pan selected to "ON".
asw
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I have little difficulty in killing bombers in my -1, or -1D Corsair with my 50 calibers. Bombers are big fat targets! Yes! I have times when I shout...BS!....but those times are usually when I make mistakes, or when the net is a bit screwy...but mostly, it's when I make mistakes.
I love attacking bombers! The key to attacking bombers successfully is good SA. At altitude (20k'ish)....bombers are fast (when level)...250+....so you, as a fighter must anticipate their target, and speed, climb above them.
Be patient...if your SA is good...you can position yourself (even at 25K...or more) into a good killing position. I've chased many a bomber from the low six position....to the high twelve...over several sectors.
Bombers get faster up high...they burn off fuel....and if they have already dropped their ordnance....they get fast, quicker. You, as a fighter, must know how long it will take you to match a bomber's speed up high, then climb above it, and dive for the kill.
As a side note: if you kill the lead bomber first...the drones will warp...sometimes crazily...until the lead bomber dies. So...kill the right hand drone first, then the left hand drone...then the lead Bomber...and if you set a bomber on fire...let it burn...extend for speed and altitude and reset to attack the remaining bombers.
When you meet an experienced bomber pilot, no matter the altitude, you as a fighter pilot will know the difference between someone just flying bombers, and someone who pilots bombers for effect. I've flown many a mission tracking what I suspected to be a bomber, always grabbing for altitude and anticipating a MINIMUM closure rate of 250 mph at 20K...and flying my Corsair with patience. I've been rewarded with Victory and Defeat at altitudes of 30k for Victories....and 5K for defeat. Bomber pilots have always dictated my demise...when I lost patience.
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
I don't believe Krusty when he says the bombers were going 350 at 15k. Not even at 25k can the b24 go that fast. Unless it's in a dive then I guess it can sustain a speed of 350, but not for long.
I like the idea of having to have a reduce throttle setting if you choose to up in a formation and want to keep it tight.
Heck, I set my throttle and man at reduced settings so I can hit strats from 25K to 30K with one or two salvos.... increases my accuracy when my buff is dead level and on course well in advance. Full throttle in most heavy buffs induces a steady climb. (Love watching LaLas and Spits claw their way to altitude to try and take me on as well).
Never got any of my prop buffs THAT fast though. Ta152 isn't really great around 15K anyways.... and last few I took up show signs of a very weak radiator from when I first flew them. Cannons less effective now (ballistics). Seems to be nerfed to me. I never take them up any more. He still should have had 100mph advantage on them without WEP. Could it have happened? Sure, see bugs below. Would it happen all the time? Not unless the game has been seriously hacked by many people, in which case the same could be done to fighters as well.
Without a film, hard to say what really was wrong. I've been hunted by patient fighters riding stick on capable buff killers for long distances that have chewed me up over time. I've seen countless pilots try (usually unsuccessfully) to take me from a dead six or low six position, or come at me with planes unsuited to killing buffs. Impatient pilots usually fail, although some do get lucky when they come in fast and hard.
I *have* noticed in large formation flights of buffs there will sometimes be one or two flights that are reportedly loaded like the rest, or even upped from a mission, that simply "walk-away" from the rest of the group, whereas other stuggles and never manage to keep up with the rest. Has to be something wrong there, lag issue, throughput on PC side with some players, bug in the code, something, but it is VERY intermittent among different buff formations.
Get rid of the drones? Heck most buffs fly without escorts. We often don't run in large boxes. What if we ran the ratio of 1 fighter for every two bombers like later in WWII Europe? Fighter pilots got it pretty easy already.
As to ground hugging and diving heavy bombers...... I don't really believe in that sort of flying. Suicidal flying. Like defending flyers doing HO collisions cause they know they can reup right away, or fiddle with the connection to come out on top. Weak.
I'll run a B-26 or A-20 on the deck. And I keep begging for a perked Intruder. But those are low level rides, and intend on getting the plane home again.
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Originally posted by Mace2004
WEP, Mil power and Max continuous are all different things.
Mace
Doh, missed a few words in there. Read that incorrectly in your first post.
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Originally posted by EagleDNY
I don't think it's the formations that are the problem, its that the bomb sights are laser accurate and there isn't any crosswind, flak bouncing, or cloud cover to inhibit dropping the bomb into the pickle barrel every time.
From 15K (thats almost 3 MILES folks), bombs should spread out side-to-side quite a bit before impact. Instead, we see a laser straight line of bomber destruction. This same effect is what dooms an AH2 CV when a level bomber flies over, despite the RL experience that level bombers were lousy a hitting a moving target.
I think cloud cover would be good improvement as well - not the hazy layer we have at 15K, but some actual broken, thick clouds at varying altitudes over the world, which actually move with the wind (wow, wind, what a concept...). Buff drivers might even like the ability to dive into some cloud cover now and again, and you might even sneak a CV around in a weather front.
EagleDNY
$.02
I'll agree that bombs are super accurate from altitude without the wind. I'd have to say we don't have wind because box formations of buffs hitting a target are rare in the MA. Its a trade off. You want realism, fly the SEA. Buffs don't get bounced by flack, but lone high buffs attract all of the flak. And we usually do not fly with an escort. MA is not realistic.... it's a playground.
There still IS some spread of those bombs. The first salvo is usually pretty close to on, but additional salvos do tend to spread out over greater heights. It's why many buff pilots use very short delays at very high altitudes.
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262
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Ted, whilst the 109s and 190s and the p51s -- and hell 90% of all the planes in the game -- got a big boost with the code revision (2.06? 2.07? whatever it was), the Ta152 was porked and nerfed beyond belief. It is not bar none the worst late war plane in the game.
Historically it out turned tempests on the deck with the utmost ease, it was the ultimate fighter able to kill anything anywhere. In AH it just sucks. I fly it for nostalgic reasons.
APDrone said he had the film but I don't know if it'll work. I tried playing back a film on this map and it gave me a "missing object" error in the film viewer.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Historically it out turned tempests on the deck with the utmost ease, it was the ultimate fighter able to kill anything anywhere. In AH it just sucks. I fly it for nostalgic reasons.
Proof please.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Flatbar
Limiting the ability to dive bomb with them is, IMO, all that's really needed.
I fly the 110-g2 alot and buff hunting with it is one of the things that I have a lot of fun doing. The 110 isn't a speed deamon but with patients, good angles and gunnery, killing bomber formations is easy and fun.
IMO, if you die a lot trying to kill buffs then you need to change tactics. If you are having a hard time catching buffs then you are, in most cases, not choosing the proper merge angle. Chasing down buffs from an alt disadvantage is only going to work if you have the patients to turn that advantage around.
Buffs aren't the problem, it's the tactics of the attacker that determine the outcome, IMO.
What do sick people have to do with catching bombers? Are you throwing them out the windows to lighten your load? Or are you throwing the patients bodies into the buff engines to knock them out?
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Our squad flies mostly bombers on squad night (Sunday), and we never seem to have a shortage of fighters able to catch us and shoot us down - even when chasing from the rear.
Re: formations - I love them. Not for the combined guns effect, but because of how cool looking it is when you get 5-10 guys together in a buff formation. It looks almost likes the films you see from WWII when you have 15 - 30 B-24's cruising along together!
As one who regularly gets shot down by bombers, it does seem a little on the unfair side when you have 21 guns all shooting at you at the same time, but OTOH if you're not right at the convergence point, the shots are spread out over a wide area - so you don't have 21 guns hitting you at the same time (usually. . .).
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Originally posted by Bronk
Proof please.
Bronk
2 Ta152H-1s vs 2 Tempests late in the war. The 152 pilot tells of not even pulling as far as he could and still easily out turning a tempest in front of him, and watching as (after several circles) the tempest finally stalls in. the 152 pilot never reached the edge of his envelope the entire time.
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Originally posted by Krusty
:cry
I see you once a week come in here and complain about bombers......Keep buffs the way they are.
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Originally posted by Krusty
2 Ta152H-1s vs 2 Tempests late in the war. The 152 pilot tells of not even pulling as far as he could and still easily out turning a tempest in front of him, and watching as (after several circles) the tempest finally stalls in. the 152 pilot never reached the edge of his envelope the entire time.
Anecdotal
Skill of pilots come in to question.
Bronk
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Only at first. After the 3rd circle or so it's all the plane. This is barely-over-the-trees flat turning. Sounds pretty much like you'd see in a plane-vs-plane flight test by any nation in the war :)
2 Ta152s engaging 2 different Tempests, and similar results for each set? It's getting closer to a real (albeit wartime) test, IMO.
EDIT: Let's take this one to the other thread, don't want to hijack this thread.
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Originally posted by viper215
I see you once a week come in here and complain about bombers......Keep buffs the way they are.
LOL A Furball wannabe. Give it up kid you lack the personality to pull it off.
Matter of fact your entire statment is false.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Only at first. After the 3rd circle or so it's all the plane. This is barely-over-the-trees flat turning. Sounds pretty much like you'd see in a plane-vs-plane flight test by any nation in the war :)
2 Ta152s engaging 2 different Tempests, and similar results for each set? It's getting closer to a real (albeit wartime) test, IMO.
EDIT: Let's take this one to the other thread, don't want to hijack this thread.
Sorry krusty... put me in a A6m5 and guys like Levi in spit V will still out turn me.
I might live a little longer and that is all.
Bronk
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Nobody told me about fast buffs. I want to fly some too. The ones I'm flying now only go about 200-225. I feel as though I've been left out.
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I don't see the fus. I agree with perking the formation option similar to the way its done on 234's. But for bombers being too fast, well - its part of their preflight planning phase. Takeoff, go masturbate for 15 minutes - level off at 15k, keep it firewalled and not worry about burning engines up, drop, descend, get coffee and land.
But for some of those bombers, mainly the ones I fly which are 234's - speed is life and usually the only defense. I rolled a 234 in at wavetop and sunk a CV which was trying to take a port of ours. It wasnt a straight drop, it was a dive toss of sorts - but it did the job - and AAA had a hellova time tracking an aircraft NOE doing 450 IAS.
Wolf
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Originally posted by KTM520guy
Nobody told me about fast buffs. I want to fly some too. The ones I'm flying now only go about 200-225. I feel as though I've been left out.
Go with the suck and blow crowd...up Arados
Mace
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:lol
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Ok. I was filming. Due to some conversations I felt prudent to remove text and vox.
To keep the file sizes down, I broke it into 2 pieces. The first piece begins where sehob initially shows up on film roster ( 9k out ) and finishes when he is down. 2 minutes.
The second film begins when krusty appears on the film roster and ends with my demise.
Please note that in the second film, sehob is able to re-up and still get close enough to land hits on me again, 10.5 minutes after he first showed up on the film roster in the first clip.
My speed is 270 mph throughout the whole duration. Altitude right at 15k give or take a couple hundred feet.
Krusty and sehob show 350+, as they claim.
The entire amount of time between sehob's first encounter and my debriefing in the tower is 11.5 minutes.
Sounds like there must be a time warp in knight=land to make it seem like 1/2 hour.
Enjoy.
Damn.. my gunnery sucked..
sehob (http://www.airmageddon.com/Airmageddon/CM/SEHOB.ahf)
Krusty (http://www.airmageddon.com/Airmageddon/CM/Krusty.ahf)
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It was longer for me because I was following your dot on dar long before vis, and following your dot vis long before icon range.
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Tempests could eat 152's alive down low.
yum yum, snacky snack.
152's were awesome at alt tho. Shame thats the domain of the 14.
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I don't attack bomber formations anymore unless I just happen to be in a favorable position to do so.
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Well Krusty,
I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
I catch high buff formations all the time, even chasing them from behind. Heck, I've caught buff formations that were over the field at 20K or more and I upped a dora and caught them. Yeah, it took a while, but I got them.
When approaching the formation, I always approach from 1-2K higher and I hold that altitude and keep my distance 1.5 to 2K away until I get slightly ahead them or even before turning in and diving. Have to keep the speed up so you aren't a sitting duck to their guns.
I'd say I get shot down on buff flying more than I make it back to base, and some times I never even get to the target.
I agree, unless you are already at altitude or watching radar, it is difficult if not impossible to get to them and kill them before they drop, but you have to figure how long they've taken to climb to that altitude as well. It takes a lot longer in buffs....
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Concerning the TA-152. I don't know how heavy they are in real life, but those long, high aspect ratio wings should provide some serious lift at lower altitudes. The only issue with high aspect ratio wings is with angle of attack. These kinds of wings have very small AoA limits and tend to stall quickly and voilently when AoA ventures into the stall range. So, although the lift is there, it really isn't suited for hard turning, even at lower altitudes due to the AoA issues. Fast rates of turn require fast angle change and this requires a wing that can handle higher AoA than "glider" type wings can deal with.
Conversely, low aspect ratio wings, such as the delta wings on some of the Mirage fighters and the old F-102 do very well with very high AoA. Unfortunately, their lift ratio is far less than high aspect ratio and for maximum use of the design, very high power to weight ratios are required.
The spitfire probably has the most efficient wing design of the planes in AH. Elliptical wings are very efficient across a broad range of speed and AoA. It also helps that the spit has decent power to weight ratio.
The P-51 wing has advantages of its own. I believe it was one of the first laminar flow designs, so it is very thin in cross section (much less drag) and is capable of pretty high AoA (which helps the pony to turn well, albeit for short periods).
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Translated: Waaaaah my bomber interception skills stink. It CANT BE ME, it HAS to be the bombers! They must change because, umm, even tho no one else is posting issues....umm, its not fair that I, umm, like, suk killing bombers.
Meanwhile, back in the real world...
People are having no problems shooting down my Lancs, B24s and Ar234s.
Maybe you should wing up with those fellas?
There are many many flyers in here that have turned me from bomber pilot into "country walking pedestrian" :)
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I dont see the problem either, I'm about 75-7 vs the big buffs and no where near the best. Hardly any buff group I've decided to attack has ever gotten home.
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I'm 44 and 4 for bombers last I checked. Like I said I'm decent at killing them. Regardless they're still too fast.
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Originally posted by AKWarp
Concerning the TA-152. I don't know how heavy they are in real life, but those long, high aspect ratio wings should provide some serious lift at lower altitudes. The only issue with high aspect ratio wings is with angle of attack. These kinds of wings have very small AoA limits and tend to stall quickly and voilently when AoA ventures into the stall range. So, although the lift is there, it really isn't suited for hard turning, even at lower altitudes due to the AoA issues. Fast rates of turn require fast angle change and this requires a wing that can handle higher AoA than "glider" type wings can deal with.
Some good observations but I disagree that high-aspect ratio wings are not suited for hard turning. They actually are exceptionally well suited for sustained turn performance due to their efficiency. Regarding AOA, what matters is the lift generated at critical AOA not the AOA itself and the high-aspect ratio wing will generate far more lift at critcal AOA than a low-aspect wing will. Lift generates G which generates turn rate. I realize this is overly simplistic but AOA has nothing to do with it except provide the wing the conditions necessary to generate lift. Another way to look at it is that a low-aspect wing operates at very high AOA because it has to.
Generally speaking, a high-aspect ratio wing will generate far more lift than a low aspect wing AND it will do it for longer because it's more efficient. A delta wing (low aspect) for instance can generate high instantaneous turn at very high AOA but it bleeds like a stuck pig doing it because it's inefficient and requires high AOA (and power) to generate lift. A high aspect wing turns better but has higher drag penalties at high speed (particularly as you approach Mach1) and there is a point at which it gets too thick due to the structural requirements of a very long wing.
A good compromise would be the F-14. The F-14A was very underpowered but was a highly capable dogfighter because of its variable wing. Look at the aspect ratio with the wings out. Very similar to the aspect ratio of the TA-152. With the wing out the F-14 could turn better (particularly at low altitude) than higher powered fighters like the F-15. With the wing back at high speed it had very low drag. The best of both worlds particularly after it got the higher thrust GE-F110 engines.
There are lots of things in play here but it seems to me the TA-152 underperforms given it's numbers and design.
Mace
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Krusty, while I'll agree that bombers are given all sorts of crutches that fighters aren't, you're really reaching now. Historical power settings and such just don't apply here. There are no mechanical failures, no downtimes for maintenance, no quality control or parts availability issues. There is nothing that would discourage anyone from flying anything at less than maximum power, with the exception of fuel load. Given that, bombers running WFO are no less realistic than fighters running WFO.
So, were we to make bombers fly at max cruise, we'd have to make fighters run at max cruise, and you'd still be in the same boat, only it would be slower.
Mace pretty much said that already, but he was using a lot of multi syllabic words, and I wasn't having any of that. He's right though.
Next time, get alt or a jet.
God, I hate having to side with the buffdweebs. I feel dirty.
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I was gunning in a B17 with someone else flying, and a lone P51 was shooting at us constantly and never even seemed to damage us, though most of his shots hit, and I shot him down too quickly. A little unbalanced for a sole B17 to take out a P51, no? He could have been a newbie, but that doesn't excuse the fact that after shooting us dozens of times it only took out one engine.
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I must be playing a different version of AH 2 to you guys. I catch bombers and I shoot bombers down, more than they shoot me down. I loves killing bombers. There is a knack to killing bombers and it's NOT coming in level dead 6 shooting from 1,000 yards out.
I also use bombers and anyone level on my 6 is gonna pay the price for being SILLY :D
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All I ask is to add drones to all bombers in the game, including C47s.
This may, maybe we can actually make resupplying a field semi-worthwhile, right now its a major waste of time.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Bombers are unbalanced. They need to be slowed down, or stripped down.
I don't see us slowing the bombers down anytime soon. So we need to remove the formation option from bombers.
I've been on many HQ raids where the enemy were struggling to keep up. sure after 10-15 minutes they might kill you, but that's 10 minutes of constant chase.
I've been AFTER many HQ raids as well! Unless you're flying a Me163 at 650mph, there's often slim to no chance you can catch up to the enemy in a tail chase.
I agree, the bomber formations used to fly under 200 mph, The 109/FWs used to intercept them before they got to tgt, break when they got in friendly flak zone over tgt, land rearm up again and attack them after their bombing,
This scenarion is imposible in AH , cuz you'll never catch them, is something wrong with gap betwen bomber fighters speed.Maybe a B17 had a max speed let's say 280mph, but NOT LOADED WITH 6000lbs/10 50cals 6 crewmembers+100% fuel
Something also about engine damage, everyone is flying in bombers/fighters with 100% power, full trottle without damaging the engine, This is total bs, a B17 would never make it with the eng.screaming at max rpm, from London to Hamburg without busting the engine or burning twice as much fuel
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hiyas krusty! S!
those were my lancs i think. can u confirm?
if i remember right, i not even see you until i heard rounds hitting my ships. i got in guns and saw you around 200 away. 1 buff gone and i blast you full in the face with tail gun. cant remember what damage i had but i did lose 1 buff.
i S! u
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One fighter against 3 bombers in formation historicaly is very dangerouse, for the fighter.....
make the drones so they cannot overspeed spunds fair,, all that other junk about removing the option for all guns firing from one location,or turning fuel burn up, sounds like going to far to me,,..if you wonna do all that just remove the drones, Id rather fly one buff with a good fuel range and at-least SOME hope of beating off NME fighters.
You wonna say that they {buffs} are too fast at alt well thats the point of climbing up that hi, to make interception harder, now the germans used radar and vectord thier fighters from miles away so they could climb that hi, climbing takes time, just ask the buff pilot thats hanging out at 20k how long it took him to climb up there.....
Being just a little melodramatic arent we? ftrs in most cases have over 100mph advantage in speed, and a 2000fpm advantage AT-LEAST gimme a break here, it aint suppose to be easy to fly into 12 guns in real life, and I think its appropriatly hard in aces hi
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bwaaahaaaahaaaaa....
never ceases to amaze me when a fighter jock encounters some
difficulty shooting down/climbing up to buffs at altitude and then
whines about how buffs should be slower/easy to kill ect.
IMO the Ta-152 is undermodelled...doesn't seem to climb or accelerate
as well as it seems it should. however catching up to buffs at altitude can be
very time consuming and yes very frustrating. If you are going to chase high
buffs you should know that its going take awhile.
as to this idea that drones should slow down the formation i disagree.
i find that in order to keep yer drones while turning u already have to sacifice
much speed/turning radius.
there is no rule in the game that says "u must intercept buffs".
if you are not willing to be patient enough to set up a high probability
of succsess attack then dont go after buffs. as far as your TAS showing 350
thats not really all that quick... i'd be willing to bet that your IAS was below 300.
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HTC Request
1) Perk the drones.
2) Require a slower speed to keep drones in place.
3) Do something about dive bombing b17's and Lanc's.
Show us you still care a little about historical simulation over arcade play. The way buff groups are being used is rediculous. It's a bad reflection on Aces High.
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I expected this thread to die days ago, to be ignored as whines by people who haven’t taken the time to learn how to deal with buffs, I should have known it wouldn't. The last time furballers got up in arms about buffs like this, the changes they cried for were made and the bombers almost disappeared from AH. You want to kill buffs, don’t take a plane with 6 .50s until you get good at it. It’s silly to think that peppering a bomber with little bullet hole from wing tip to wing tip should take it down. I dread those guys that have learned how to kill buffs, one pass and they take out two bombers almost every time. For the rest of you, those not willing to learn, it's the old "Thanks for playing, start over." The problem isn't with the game, look within.
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Krusty and all I had a weird idea I'd like to float. Do nothing to the bombers but give them a different icon or a B dot... something along those lines. I don't know how historically accurate it would be to be able to tell fighters from bombers but possibly that would give fighters a chance to climb to alt. Probably a crud idea but I thought about it this afternoon while 2 stories up climbing a rock wall.
Now tell me how full of crud I am
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Originally posted by Kitteh
I was gunning in a B17 with someone else flying, and a lone P51 was shooting at us constantly and never even seemed to damage us, though most of his shots hit, and I shot him down too quickly. A little unbalanced for a sole B17 to take out a P51, no? He could have been a newbie, but that doesn't excuse the fact that after shooting us dozens of times it only took out one engine.
Pony is not a good buff killer. It was designed to escort them, and had a lot of success in strafing targets as well. Bombers are Big Dumb Ugly Targets in the skies. They really demand excptional gunnery with .50's...or the proper application of a few exploding CANNON ordanace knocking off important parts.
A pony spraying and praying .50's or smaller at a buff won't do a lot of damage unless he is very lucky.
Sure, lots of those .50's might have hit....fuselage...putting holes in the body, but it sounds like he did not get many hits in that count. Were he to have a cannon armed plane, you proabaly would have went down in tattered flaming wreckage.
BTW...if someone else was flying, why didn't you shoot the Pony down before he knocked out your motor? They are big shiny targets from the turrent..... :t
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Originally posted by Killjoy2
HTC Request
1) Perk the drones.
2) Require a slower speed to keep drones in place.
3) Do something about dive bombing b17's and Lanc's.
Show us you still care a little about historical simulation over arcade play. The way buff groups are being used is rediculous. It's a bad reflection on Aces High.
* I could live with number one IF I'm allowed up to FIVE drones along with my buff. I'll pay for a nice 3 x 2 box formation like that. Make each the cost of ...say...a nerfed Ta-152?
* I could live with the slightly slower speed for formations - or elliminate the drone catch up speed which is what we are really looking at here. Easy enough to adapt to in order to keep formations.
* Hate to see number three being done myself ....its just wrong (like HOing LaLa's).... the second fix ought to help alleviate number three without a seperate fix to some degree. Just don't know how you eliminate it altogether without mucking up other flight characteristics within the code. Give us a perked A-26 Invader and you won't see dive bombing Lancs much.......
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And to counter from the buff side of the street.
Limit the total number of Spit 16's and La7's in the air at any one time from any one country. :p :p :p
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Originally posted by Dichotomy
Krusty and all I had a weird idea I'd like to float. Do nothing to the bombers but give them a different icon or a B dot... something along those lines. I don't know how historically accurate it would be to be able to tell fighters from bombers but possibly that would give fighters a chance to climb to alt. Probably a crud idea but I thought about it this afternoon while 2 stories up climbing a rock wall.
Now tell me how full of crud I am
So basically you all in the fighters are complaining that you dont want to spend the time to fly maybe 10-15 minutes to climb above a bomber formation and attack in a intelligent way. SO you want them to go slower AND fly lower causing more dive bombing and the greater chance of dropping your fighter hangers. :lol
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Originally posted by tedrbr
* I could live with number one IF I'm allowed up to FIVE drones along with my buff. I'll pay for a nice 3 x 2 box formation like that. Make each the cost of ...say...a nerfed Ta-152?
Agreed.
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Originally posted by tedrbr
Pony is not a good buff killer. It was designed to escort them, and had a lot of success in strafing targets as well. Bombers are Big Dumb Ugly Targets in the skies. They really demand excptional gunnery with .50's...or the proper application of a few exploding CANNON ordanace knocking off important parts.
A pony spraying and praying .50's or smaller at a buff won't do a lot of damage unless he is very lucky.
Sure, lots of those .50's might have hit....fuselage...putting holes in the body, but it sounds like he did not get many hits in that count. Were he to have a cannon armed plane, you proabaly would have went down in tattered flaming wreckage.
BTW...if someone else was flying, why didn't you shoot the Pony down before he knocked out your motor? They are big shiny targets from the turrent..... :t
At first I didn't see him, I didn't get a shot until he had already blew the engine.
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OK, here are a few numbers I got today just to check how fast a B-24 could fly. I got a formation of B-24s. Loaded them with eight 1000 pound bombs and 50% fuel. I took off and climbed to 15K. Using the E6B on auto level the speed leveled off at 218 IAS showing 275 TAS/GS. I dropped all my ords and was able to get up to 224 IAS showing 283 TAS/GS. OK, NOT 350 by any means. But to be fair, I put the B-24s into a moderate dive and at about 300 IAS the airframe started the usual moaning. Close to 350 the lift overcame the control input and the B-24s leveled off till it slowed enough for the control input to be effective again. Next I put the B-24s into a steep dive and the wings ripped off at about 360 IAS.
Krusty if you coudln't catch a flight of B-24s flying at 15K, I don't think that the B-24s are at fault. It seems that the majority of pilots reporting here don't seem to have a problem with catching and shooting down buffs. I am wondering if perhaps your aircraft settings were a bit off not allowing you full power. Just a thought cause if a GV dweeb such as myself have no problem catching a box of buffs and shooting them down, you shouldn't.
I did my test today one time. I would be interested to hear from a few of the buff pilots that fly them a lot more than I do. Are my numbers a fair representation of the B-24s performance?
LTARsqrl <>
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Skiwerl made me chuckle. I've flown around for extended periods of time at reduced RPMs, wondering the whole time why the @#*% all these other @#$*^*^ clowns were so fast in those %$($%^* crappy planes. Start checking my stick settings, notice that the rotary on the throttle that I use for RPMs is cranked down to one third. Oops.
The buffs can really maintain some steam in a shallow dive, especially if you trim out of that porpoising as you reach your max speeds, but it doesn't sound like this was the case.
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lol.
Once upon a time people were whining because that solo B-17 was so dangerous.
An entire bomber formation now is less dangerous than the old B-17s used to be. Hell, bomber formations are amazingly weak. A cannon armed fighter with a small alt advantage can easily down an entire formation with a little bit of practice.
This is an old argument which has always come down to one thing. "When I come up straight behind a bomber IT SHOOTS ME DOWN WTF!" Protip: The german pilots in ww2 quickly learned that straight six attacks were suicide.
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Off topic: Inno, did you ever get your hats progged as 8 buttons?
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Krusty is there ANYTHING you don't whine about.
If gonna do that allow all postions to be manned. Bring back the DEATHSTAR!!!!!!
aND WHILE WE ARE AT IT ENABLE GUNS WHILE ON GROUND SO WHEN Krusty tries to vulch me I can blow his wings off some more:O
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Easycor, BlueJ, [EDIT: Innominate too] please stop throwing out insults and degrading categorizations of pilots that don't apply, just because you don't like the idea.
Stop trying to pick a fight with trolling posts. Take that bullcrap to the O' Club.
You call us whiners. You call us morons. You call us folks that are too stupid to attack bombers properly. All false accusations. Had you actually READ this thread, you'd see that many of us have very VERY good kill:death ratios for bombers. I myself have 40+ kills to 4 deaths. Somebody else postd 70+ kills to 7 deaths.
We are not some 2 week newbies with no idea how to play this game. Stop insinuating we are. We don't need your tips. We don't need your condescending BS attitude. We can and DO get bomber kills.
Despite this, regardless of the fact that we still kill bombers, the effort required is ahistorically steep. Stop calling us all whiners who are upset because we're getting shot down by bombers, because we don't know how to attack them. We're not the ones getting shot down. We're not the ones that don't know how to attack them. We are the ones that do it right, get the job done, and more often than not get back home safely.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Stop trying to pick a fight with trolling posts. Take that bullcrap to the O' Club.
Read your very first post that started this 3 page diatribe of hot air, Krusty.
You charge in here spewing forth all-knowing wisdom of how you can't catch a group of bombers before they pummel their target. How they're blasting away through the atmosphere at some God-forsaken speed that even more advanced bombers we don't have could.
How somebody isn't likely to be able to relaunch and catch them before they left the vicinity.
All because, yet again, you let your keyboard run rampantly without checking your facts.
Patience, man.. you gots to have patience.
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My first post was accurate. I was doing 350TAS and I could not close with your bombers for 5 minutes until you turned. I was watching the icon for distance and the range never went down. Even so normally you can sense the distance, you have a perception of closing speed -- the closing speed was almost nil.
This is not the first time it's happened. It happens many times in fact.
My post was about the speed and closure rate of trying to catch bombers. NOT that "I get shot down all the time, boohoo!" or that "man I just don't know what to do!" or anything like that.
Folks argue about the spit16. Folks argue about the la7. Folks argue about the typhie, tempest, you NAME it. Often they have legitimate arguments. That doesn't mean the argument is started because they're all incompetent. It doesn't mean that anybody complaining about the spit16 is incapable of killing one.
I have a legitimate argument about the speed of bombers in AH. The stem of this argument is not based in an inability to catch them or kill them. It is based in my experience of this game for many many years.
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
So basically you all in the fighters are complaining that you dont want to spend the time to fly maybe 10-15 minutes to climb above a bomber formation and attack in a intelligent way. SO you want them to go slower AND fly lower causing more dive bombing and the greater chance of dropping your fighter hangers. :lol
nooo I was saying, more asking, if it made sense to ident them on the dot dar in some way or another as bombers and is this historically accurate to any degree? Thus if you see a group of bombers coming in and want to engage them you can take the chance of climbing to 20 - 30 k and getting in position to engage. Floating an idea that 'SEEMS' like a good one but I'd like to hear why it is or isn't. It can stay the same for all I really care.
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Originally posted by Dichotomy
nooo I was saying, more asking, if it made sense to ident them on the dot dar in some way or another as bombers and is this historically accurate to any degree? Thus if you see a group of bombers coming in and want to engage them you can take the chance of climbing to 20 - 30 k and getting in position to engage. Floating an idea that 'SEEMS' like a good one but I'd like to hear why it is or isn't. It can stay the same for all I really care.
It would with cause extreme amounts of ganging og bombers. Or the bomber pilots would be forced to stay under radar. THis would create more dive bombers.
Krusty. I never said you had a problem killing them. I also never called you a moron. I know you as a person so I am not qualified to make that claim. Your problem with bombers flying to fast is a legimate one. The other jumping on board your train to throw their idea in on porking bombers are the ones that I have a problem with. Maybe they are to fast, slowing them down some is a worthy idea. But slowing them down and taking away the drones would just make bombers useless except in large numbers.
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good point.. like I said it was just a random thought that I figured I'd throw out there for discussion.
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Originally posted by Dichotomy
good point.. like I said it was just a random thought that I figured I'd throw out there for discussion.
It was a good idea. If worked on I think it could work.
How about...if there are more then lets say 5 bombers above 10k in a radar circle a gold star will appear in one of the corners?
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9 bombers between 3 guys, enough said.
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Originally posted by Krusty
My first post was accurate. I was doing 350TAS and I could not close with your bombers for 5 minutes until you turne
u still dont get it ....350 tas ie. ground speed .....
is not that fast , your actual (indicated airspeed at that altitude)
would be less than 300 (IAS) ...
buff at that altitude has IAS of at least 255 to 260.
so yer only going 35 to 40 IAS faster than buffs.
(heck i can do 35 on a bike)
that is gonna take some time to close.
according to your earlier statements..........
you kill buffs 95% of time....so what's the problem?......
occasionally you have to spend time in pursuit?
the physics in this game are farely acurate in terms of distance VS time
ie.speed . so strap yerself in its gonna be a long chase at 15k sir.
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just got back from checking the numbers in ta152 and b24.....
ta152 50% fuel no drop tanks
b24 25% fuel 8X1000lbs
(did not have stop watch only digital number clock to go by)
ta152-----
climb to 15k...3 min............. levels out..............
2min later achieves TAS 350
however IAS ONLY 280
eventually achieves top speed of:
TAS 391
IAS 307
just for fun i will tell that the time for these buffs to climb to 15K
was 13minutes (pretty speedy eh?)
after 5 min level buff has topped out at IAS 221
TAS 279
so when the 152 achieved TAS 350 he was only closing on buffs by
280-221=59
eventually the 152 will be closing on the buff by
307-221=86
if buff has already dropped ords and is low in fuel and 50cals
buffs IAS becomes 227
TAS 280
in this case ta152 is closing at 307-227=80
based on these numbers i find that it will take somewhere between 3 to 4 minutes for the ta-152 to close on the b24s.
this of corse is assuming the 24s didn't start a shallow dive from a higher altitude when he noticed the "dot" behind him which of corse
would have led to a much longer chase.
math seems ok cant see a problem cept for lack of
patience.
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ta152 kinda sucks imo, i was hitting gvs a sec ago and one poped up, i twist turn and 8 50 cals to the back of his head. Its supposed to be real good up hi but u aint goin to get any eats up 35 40k. BUt now we are getting off topic. Start another thread about that.
The val and tbm dont get drones, so why should the bigger bombers get them. There freakin defenseless, stay above 350 and just take ur time, theres nothin he can do. A single b17 can protect it self, either get good on the guns or get somebody that noes what hes doin, or get a escort or fly wit a wing man. Oh and the high ones are great, a set of b17s up in the stars, only a hand full of planes have the performance to go up there and by the time u get up there hes rocketing by o, or better yet hes shooting at u from 2.0k out and u have to struggle to gain a good gun postion. ANd then the things got auto guns, from one tail gun he can get every gun that can see u to fire, give me a break. Unless u get a group of bombers sleeping, u have the alt advantage, he is a horrible shot or u got a buddy wit u ur in a for a tough fight. Im not aasking for a free meal(i like to earn my eats) but the bomber guuys have to much of an advantage. ANd then my favorite, is one the guy does all of these crazy moves wit it and the bombers warp from one side to the other tryin to keep up.Single bombers, now those big raids either have to learn how to fly in formation or get real good gunners(2 gunners plus a pilot would be nice). 5 guys controling '15' bombers, cmon.
just my 2 cents
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For whatever its worth, here's my take...
Last tour, I spent a lot of time trolling for bombers and developing tactics. I've also spent some time flying bombers in tours past. A couple of observations/opinions:
1) We shouldn't be able to run full military for so long, but I doubt this will ever get changed. So, I'll accept the hokie engine use...at least we can use it in the fighters as well.
2) The robot guns on the bombers--my biggest gripe is that if my rear turret gets taken out, I can still fire the other guns from the position. While my tail gun isn't putting rounds downrange, I can still take advantage of its incredible field of view and fire to activate the guns in the other positions, while using the sight of the tail gun. I shouldn't be able to do that. That screen should be all bloody or the sights immovable in my opinion. You shouldn't be able to fire the top turret from the tail sight in other words...
3) The formations--well, I go 50/50 on that issue. In one way, I believe that they discourage team-play on the bomber pilot side, while increasing the need for teamwork by the interceptors. Maybe a form shouldn't be perked, but the ENY lowered, as someone who successfully shoots down an entire form of 3 with all those guns should get more perks for staring down all those guns. Bombers represented an incredible investment in resources, money, and especially manpower. There's 30 aircrew in a form of B-17's. That's a lot of casualties for the loss of 3 planes. A B-17 in 1943 cost approx. $240,000 roughly equivalent to $2.7 million today. If I'm flying a P-47N and shoot down 3 B-17's, I land roughly 4-5 perks for killing 30 guys, and blowing through $8.1 million dollars worth of gear. I'm not sure that's equitable...
4) Bombers were the offensive air weapon in the war, and are in the MA as well. I think the destructiveness of the bombers is a bit unbalanced, as a whole. In the war, a successful mission equated to 30% of ordnance on within the target "area"--and that's with the then uber Norden bombsite, and missions that included hundreds of bombers. In the MA, 100% of ordnance on target is extremely easy. And, I won't even touch the issue of level bombing CV's.
5) Almost everyone had much more advanced warning of impending bomber raids which allowed interceptors to be positioned to defend against them. If we had radar that showed incoming bombers 3 or 4 sectors away (or whatever is a more accurate war-era range) it would make the whole issue much less frustrating.
6) Flak was the number one killer of bombers in WWII, and nothing over a base or strat matches the type of flak that you see in pictures of the big bomber raids in ETO. Only the CV can throw up that kind of lead, which strangely enough, seems ineffective against those level bombers at 6-8K.
Its a multi-faceted issue that I happily pay HTC $15 a month to figure out for me...
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I agree with number 1, however that works for fighters as well.
Number 2 however I disagree with. If you can't fire all the guns from one position, how are you to fire them? Switch from position to position? That isn't practical. The guns on buffs are set converge at about 800 meters. Farther than that or shorter than that if you set your sights on a fighter, only the guns you are in will hit. So, all the "Your buff has Laser sights" is not a valid beef.
Number 3 humm. More pts for shooting down a formation? Naa. I am GV dweeb and I can kill buffs with no problem. And you want to give me more pts. As has been pointed out many times in this thread, killing buffs is a cinch if your smart about it. The only ones that seem to have problems are the ones that would rather buffs just dropped out of the air at the sight of an enemy plane.
Number 4 I tend to agree with. Lazer Nordan bomb sights are kind of lame in my opinion. While I wasn't great the way the sights use to be, I could hit the ground with my bombs. Practice would cure the bomb sight issue.
Number 5, nope. They could also detect fighters from a greater distance. The DAR works the way it is. Could you imagine the whines if my GVs could detect fighters and buffs from farther out? :rofl
Number 6, 100% whole heartedly agree. As has been pointed out in many, many, MANY other threads, Flak needs to be changed. Mobile and stationary Flak 88s need to be added. The puffy ack as it is today is a joke. Virtually useless for defense. Set the M-3s up so they can tow the Moble 88s. Give the 88s a 1 minute deployment time and there ya have it.
Good Post Stoney. What are your views on the Bomber speeds? As has been pointed out by some field tests, the 350 speed on buffs could only be someone reading TAS which increases with altitude. B-24s will rip apart at that speed.
LTARsqrl <>
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Originally posted by Krusty
Okay the reason bombers have drones doesn't apply anymore. They are not this defenseless little thing that they used to be.
Last night was a PERFECT example of why bombers need drones revoked.
15K B24s were hitting a port. I'm in a TA152 flying toward them. I'm 15k as well. I'm on full WEP and I can't close into icon range until they turn around for another pass at the port. THEN I can barely keep up. I'm 1.5k out for 5+ minutes at full damn throttle, doing 350+ in a Ta152, and the bombers are as fast as I am! This is bullcrap!
Hell the B29 could barely do 350 steady! Yet every bomber in this game does well more than it ever did in any historical mission (EVER). Add to that the fact that any 1 bomber can fire up to 7 50cal guns in any direction, then multiply it by 3 (3 planes in formation) and you get 21 guns that kill instantly.
I came up on a bomber set last night and in a spit16, unloaded directly into the wing root of a lancaster. All I did was blow his bomb bay door of (rriiiiight, suuuuure... 80+ 20mm and the only thing that comes off is the bomb bay) and in his first ping, literally his first ping he gives me a pilot wound AND rips my tail off. Lag was nonexistent.
So you have bombers that are nearly impossible to catch when flying the planes that were best able to catch them in real life. You have bombers that are 4x more lethal than normal (up to 4 gun positions firing at target at any given time), multplied times 3 planes (12 times more lethal), and you have a problem with gameplay balance.
Bombers are unbalanced. They need to be slowed down, or stripped down.
I don't see us slowing the bombers down anytime soon. So we need to remove the formation option from bombers.
I've been on many HQ raids where the enemy were struggling to keep up. sure after 10-15 minutes they might kill you, but that's 10 minutes of constant chase.
I've been AFTER many HQ raids as well! Unless you're flying a Me163 at 650mph, there's often slim to no chance you can catch up to the enemy in a tail chase.
If this were the case, WW2 would have ended in 1942 with complete bomber supremacy going to the allies.
EDIT: Hell, or even ended in 1940 with complete bomber supremacy going to the axis!!
[size=10]NO[/size] thats 3 kills mate !
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Originally posted by MadSquirrel
Number 2 however I disagree with. If you can't fire all the guns from one position, how are you to fire them?
Good Post Stoney. What are your views on the Bomber speeds?
First, for number 2, I only meant after a turret has been taken out. Other than that, slay away...
As far as bomber speed goes, well TAS is a funny thing. It increases the higher you go, while IAS decreases. I fly the Jug on bomber hunting missions--its my primary ride. I take it up to 28K and go >400 TAS the whole time hunting--so, no, I don't have any trouble catching bombers. Especially if they're at 15K. At those speeds, you can cover a sector in 3 to 4 minutes.
The lower I hunt, the less options I have for making an intercept, but I can always catch up. Mostly because 234's are the only bomber in the game that can run >350 TAS. My only gripe is that no one should be able to run full military for a length of time (and that's an immersion gripe, not a game play gripe since all planes reap the benefits of continuous full mil)--I'm sure there are some POH's out there that can demonstrate how long you could historically run Mil--5 minutes I've seen for some of the U.S. birds. But, with full mil taken away, the advantage still goes to the fighters, because the difference for me in B-17's between full mil and the normal (which I consider the max continuous setting) is about 40-50mph TAS at 26K. For the Jug at that altitude, its only a difference of about 10-20 mph TAS. I get 242 TAS in B-17's at 26K with normal power and doors open. Jug gives me almost 400 TAS at normal at the same altitude. That's 160 mph of closure, which, if I do my math right, gives me over 2.5 miles a minute of closure. That would mean I could run down a set of B-17's a sector a way in 10 minutes. At full mil, the 17's will do around 280 true (with bomb load and doors shut) while I'm doing around 410. So, that takes away 30 mph of closure. I don't know what the difference is at 15K because, for me, its irrelevant.
'Cause in a dive from 26K to 15K I've got to slip the jug hard to keep it under 550 mph TAS. In those situations, I'm probably bringing almost 300 mph closure. Maybe I'll do some testing to see what I can come up with.
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
It was a good idea. If worked on I think it could work.
How about...if there are more then lets say 5 bombers above 10k in a radar circle a gold star will appear in one of the corners?
ya something like that would be a nice addition.. but if the game stays the way it is I'm good with that too. I'm still a dweebie noob to a degree so I'm not suprised or po'd at anybody but myself when I get clobbered by one. Stalling a pony behind a formation of lancasters and 17's like I did last week can make you feel REAL stupid right before your fresh view from the tower. :D Not the DUMBEST death I've had so far but in the top 5
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there isnt a reason for drones, i mean if u cant gun on a set of these things u need help. My first attack will flame or take a wing off and after that theres nothin but a sheet of tracers all over the sky, i mean from one gun every gun that can turn my way fires, if this isnt auto guns what is, isnt that what the b29 is supposed to have? Theres alot of times where i get a lone set and just sit 1.5 2.0k away and watch him waste all his ammo, then go and kill them. And im talking about the 15 20k bombers not the hugeing the ground bombers, those are an easy meal everytime. BUt then my favorite part is that all it takes is a one set of 20k bombers to kill a whole base. give me a break, bombers get drones then i want my k14 gun sight. If u have drones at least turn off ther auto guns, then maybe allow more then one "human" gunner. It will make a good gunner more desirable, and maybe make the demand for an escoirt fighter.... more work for me.
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you ppl would whine if i hung you with new rope.:furious
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Originally posted by Krusty
I'm tellin' ya! I was doing 350TAS in a TA152 and was not closing for a long long time. I was following his dot before he came into icon range, and he only did that because he turned 180 degrees. Then I got in close but could barely do anything because he was so fast.
its impossible.
he must have been in a shallow dive.
btw a TA152 IS NOT the best plane to attack bombers at only 15k.
bombers are NOT tough, and NOT hard to shoot down.
they are only hard if you fly up there tail.
if you want it hard you maybe should look back and remember the days when there used to be team work and we'd get 40+ bombers in the air. thats tough... then you need team work to bring them down.
we've done this before... someone spoted the 40+ bombers sectors out, and setup a counter mission of 262's, 163s, 109s, 190s. probably only 20 reached the target, and less than 5 got home.
i really cant understand why fighter guys want to turn the game into a fighter only arena. you moan for a FT, when you get it, you moan about vulching and everything else.
Bomber guys already have few targets that DO anything to the game... why ruin there game even more?
oh and B24 doing 370?
http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/models/b24j.html
270 seems to be the max at 15k.........
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Originally posted by ghi
Something also about engine damage, everyone is flying in bombers/fighters with 100% power, full trottle without damaging the engine, This is total bs, a B17 would never make it with the eng.screaming at max rpm, from London to Hamburg without busting the engine or burning twice as much fuel
nor would any fighter.
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Originally posted by Killjoy2
Show us you still care a little about historical simulation over arcade play. The way buff groups are being used is rediculous. It's a bad reflection on Aces High.
:rolleyes:
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I was going to let this post die, but y'all resurrected it.
Overlag, you're wrong. You say "You fighter guys" and "You moan about this" and "you moan about that" and you say "Why do you want to turn the game into a furball?" -- when none of this applies to anybody in this post or any of its replies. Don't go making generalizations that don't fit, or you open yourself up to being called a suicide porker jabo toolshedder (it doesn't matter if it fits, see the point?).
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Originally posted by Krusty
I was going to let this post die, but y'all resurrected it.
Overlag, you're wrong. You say "You fighter guys" and "You moan about this" and "you moan about that" and you say "Why do you want to turn the game into a furball?" -- when none of this applies to anybody in this post or any of its replies. Don't go making generalizations that don't fit, or you open yourself up to being called a suicide porker jabo toolshedder (it doesn't matter if it fits, see the point?).
krusty.. YOU are the one that are quoting figures that are IMPOSSIBLE for any AHII buff to do.
you are the one that is saying bombers shouldnt be able to fly at max power....why not? you can.
it takes 4 maybe 5 minutes to climb to 15k in a 109. It takes over 15minutes in most bombers.
and you kill them fine anyway..... why is there a problem?
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bombers are the easiest thing to shoot down in the game...even easier than a la7 shootin dwn a spit whos going 150 mph. You just die if u get right on the buffs 6 and try to kill it you have to come in directly from the sides, below or right from above
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Krusty you might wish to check our plane charts, no way a b24 does 350 mph at 15k its top speed is 275 at 15k
B24 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/models/b24j.html)
HiTech
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well a single b24 isnt a soft target, u guys sayin its easy to kill bombers u must be killing sleepy bombers or attacking in a pack, once they see u nothin but tracers are in the sky, dont attack there six, who in there right mind does, i take every angle i could think of... theres no soft spot on them because if i knew i wouldnt say anything. I mean there life is too easy, i mean i dont remember the last time i seen a bomber being hit by flack....it went from being a solid defense to fireworks. Single bombers encourages more team work, more missions, now we need more gunners and more escorts, people need to learn how to fly in formation...... in a nutshell more team work, not single bombers floating around porkin everything insight. Makeing the game more fighter oriented? im not trying to do that, but why should the bomber guys get a easier deal then the fighters, u guys get drones so fighters should get outside views or the green bomb sight, but we dont. I siad it before single bombers need escorts, there aint no better feeling then protecting ur bomber from take off to landing, again more team work, i dont think more team work is a bad thing, but i could be wrong. Either no more drones, no more auto guns, or perk the drones.
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Are you crazy? this is just nutz, so killing 3 buffs is hard, anyone who has been here long knows how mind numbingly simple it used to be to kill buffs when there was only one,
"and thats all i have to say about that"
well not egsactly, see a b24 has a soft spot, even in a form....now I dont like giving away trade secrets but my hand has been forced here...
see if you are a little faster than the nme buff, and you approach him at D1.0 from directly underneath, hes gonna have one gun to shoot with...the ball......now if you let him track you until your just ahead of his ability to point down at you, he has to spin 180 degrees to even get a shot at you since your more ahead of him then behind, SO.., then pull up staying on his front quarter and you get 1 pass free of charge...from the bottom, now thats all i can divulge.. so good luck with getting rid of the best thing to happen to AH since the D9 made it in....
:aok
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The B-17's/B-24's/B-26's had a good maximum speed, but, For how long could they run on that maximum speed? I'm sure they could not run to Berlin and back with 300 mph.
The combat box was running at 180 mph with a reason. That was their cruise speed. At that speed they could do the mission and hope to hit something. I would really like to know how far could a bomber get running on full power.
Something is fishy with the bombers. A wide used tactic of the Germans was to attack the combat box with rockets to damage planes so they would FALL OUT OF FORMATION.
Now how much damage do you have to do in AH to a B-24 or B-17 to make it drop speed below 175 mph? :rolleyes:
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can you fly your fighter at full throttle all flight?
enough said
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A few ideas from Buffin Beef:
1. Add our old friend Otto, make it so the pilot can command any gun he wants but he can no longer use the "all fire mode" or add a delay of 2-3 seconds to "all fire mode" to allow for the other gunners to swing around and target.
2. Add a SMALL perk cost to drones of powerful buffs, B17s, B24s, B26s, Lancs. Make it so that drones of hanger queens (Ju88s, Ki67s, Bostons) are free, to help get these birds in the air more.
3. Make it so you can have more planes per formation for a higher perk cost per plane. IE 1 extra plane is 1 perk, 2 planes is 2 perks, 3 planes is 4 perks, 4 planes is 8 perks and so on. I dream of the day I can lead a squadron for 12 B17s by myself. :D
4. Limit formations to certain bases. IE large bomber formations can only take off from large fields, small formations or single bombers can only lift off from small fields and ect.
5. Krusty is to be tied to a 1k egg and dropped over Bishland for betraying his buffing brothers.
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Ok everybody calm down! lol.....Please go back and check the data that mussie listed earlier.......data states it takes one fighter to kill a formation of B17's ....Looks Like some good data and facts to INCREASE not decrease bomber abilities.....Just an opion but based on fact.
Good Day!
999000
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....Said the man that focuses solely on using overpowered bombers to kill dozens of fighters per sortie :lol
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Like Oh My God isn't his thread dead yet?? I may not be as well known as 999000 or tater but I am a Damn good buff pilot I just don't advertise like they do. For any good fighter pilot that knows what he's doing it aint hard to take out a bomber group. Heck I tookout 2 of 999000s' bombers with a KI61 of all things one day.
Oh and like others have stated no bombers shoud not be able to run full all the time but fighters shouldnt either. so no matter what you do it should even out.
All done here going to work on my map now ta ta. :)
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The thing with bombers vs fighters isn't that "oh, fighters run at full throttle too, so it evens out" -- it's that bombers cruised even in the midst of combat. They rarely ever reached 200mph when level. Fighters, on the other hand, often CRUISED at 250+ mph. They also ran at full power (and/or WEP) when attacking. So the speed difference was even greater still.
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i dont mind bobmers. they are fun to fight against and take skill to take out. one thing i have found is that i can blo the crap out of a wing and it wont come off. i shoot teh **** out of a gun position and it is still oporational. i unloades 1k rounds on a bomber 1 day and all i got it to do was a fuel leak. i mean 1k rounds in the back of a bomber must do more dmg then that. teh back gun was still working for god sake. id say gunner dead for def and gun fuber anfter that many rounds.
apart form that bombers are ok
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Krusty you ok man
I think if they had rows of bombers lined up on a field that the fighter guys could swoop down and kill/disable maybe everyone would be happy .
999000
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Bombers are dead meat on the table for most fighters. The speed differential is their only hope here in AH. The smart buffer tries to be high & fast enough so most enemy fighters either even don´t try to intercept them or are foolish enough to attack from 6 o´clock low because their´re too impatient. Reduce that speed differential, and they will be even more helpless.
I do have some problems with constant max cruise, but more during certain setups in special events when really huge formations of bombers are bullying their way through fighters with only marginally higher speed.
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i dont have a prob with everything running on wot all day long. today i has in a 51d and intoed ki67s at around 15k, i was clocking 405mph and it took me awhile to catch them(there fast) i took 2 while another green took the other. Only thing i dont like is the auto gun deal they got, sometype of delay for the guns to move or when u switch guns, or just run all the guns on one bomber, its gay that from one turrent i control all of them, i have guned on them and its freakin meat head easy, and no this isnt when there the retards that sit on the 6, i kill the ones that dive down an take the funny angles.
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Here is a little historical data you guys might find interesting.
The 390th participated in 301 operational missions, dropping over 19,000 tons of bombs. 179 of its aircraft were lost, with 147 missing in action and 32 due to other causes. The Group's accomplishments show a total of 378 enemy aircraft destroyed, 78 probably destroyed, and 97 damaged. The Group was awarded two Presidential Unit Citations, six Battle Streamers and many commendations. During its combat history the Group's bombing accuracy was reported as the best in the 8th Air Force and its aircraft losses were the lowest per mission flown/bombs dropped.
Granted I am sure not every bomber group had a kill ratio like that. I think they had 999000 and Tatertot with them :-)
All
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Hey guys thought I should put a quick link to cut and past incase anyone wants to read more on the 390th.
http://www.390th.org/
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Sometimes buffs look to be faster than they really are. Its enuff for them to nose down a little and get easily to 350mph losing just a little alt. So, it takes ages to climb and catch them. Some buff drivers are very good at it.
Our Ta152 is useless, IMHO. As far as axis aircraft are concerned, I prefer the 109K or the 205 for buff hunting, respectively at high and medium altitude.
Btw, I really miss our old (yes, yes, even if historically wrong) 109G-10 with gondolas. No smart buff driver could escape from her.
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Hey JRCrow that's a nice webpage, and I'd love to see more pics of that B17 (see if it's worth skinning for AH), but I've heard from more than one source that bomber gunners grossly over-claimed. It's not intentional, they just thought they killed a lot more than they did. Heck there was one report saying that the DB600 series engines on the 110s and 109s belched out a big cloud of smoke when the throttle was jammed forward (they used gas made from coal, you see), so after they'd make a firing run they'd gun the throttle and get out from behind the bomber fast. Bomber gunners often mistook this for engine damage. I've heard this second hand quoted from a book, so I can't back it up. But there may be many reasons to claim so many fighter kills. The real numbers don't seem to be *that* high.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Hey JRCrow that's a nice webpage, and I'd love to see more pics of that B17 (see if it's worth skinning for AH), but I've heard from more than one source that bomber gunners grossly over-claimed. It's not intentional, they just thought they killed a lot more than they did. Heck there was one report saying that the DB600 series engines on the 110s and 109s belched out a big cloud of smoke when the throttle was jammed forward (they used gas made from coal, you see), so after they'd make a firing run they'd gun the throttle and get out from behind the bomber fast. Bomber gunners often mistook this for engine damage. I've heard this second hand quoted from a book, so I can't back it up. But there may be many reasons to claim so many fighter kills. The real numbers don't seem to be *that* high.
Yea, those fly boys love to brag, I am sure there was lots of inflated stats by lots of people in the coflict. Thats pretty cool info on the 110s. There are tons of conflicting stories about the bomber flights what they did and didn't do. The war was so big and lasted so long so many things happened, I think you could spen and entire life time researching all the things that happened and never see it all. Pretty wild. I am still amazed at the boldness of those who participated in it. Just imagine being a waist gunner exposed to the elements with a dangeling 50 cal taking pot shots at fighters in the 20k enviroment as they zip bye (if they are smart).
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Krusty, does this mean you're going to ask your Ju88 pilots to back off of the throttle in the BoB scenario? :D
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I have... different plans in mind (*mona lisa smile*)
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The book "Wings of Gold" stated that U.S. Navy and Marine Corps pilots made claims of kills that were approximately 1/3rd higher than actual. The author based this from comparing U.S. claims to the reported Japanese losses. I would think among tightly packed bombers that if one fighter went down, the tendency for the multiple gunners that would have been shooting at it to all think "they" killed it, would tend to inflate the statistics by an even higher factor. Might be interesting to see if someone has made some similar comparison for ETO.
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I have to agree with you Stephen, it's easy to wastr a formation of bombers all by yourself if you take the time to make the right attack.
Bombers without drones would be boring for both the bomber pilot and the attacking fighter.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Neg filth I'm going to wait til the tour changes to better track kills/deaths.
C202 is a nice little bird. My only claim to fame is landing 10 kills in one (reloading once) in FT, mixing it up in furballs.
Sounds like fighter town is where you belong Krusty
Bomber bullets disappear at 1100, wings come off at IAS 315
Drones get lost in most sharp turns, and fighters shoot me down more than I kill them
Get a life
SKDenny SkyKnight Bomber Group
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Originally posted by hitech
Krusty you might wish to check our plane charts, no way a b24 does 350 mph at 15k its top speed is 275 at 15k
B24 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/models/b24j.html)
HiTech
AMEN Brother
SKDenny