Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Krusty on August 25, 2006, 02:19:18 PM
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I've been wondering about this for a while. Supposedly our Ta152H-1 is based off of the historical numbers. Only when the allies ran across some H-1s and sent them back for flight analysis, the results were different.
Our Ta152 does about 1500 FPM climb without WEP. It does about 3000 FPM with WEP. BIG difference for such a little power boost. (Those numbers might be off by a couple hundred fpm, but the ratio's about right, I'm going from memory)..
Okay, but when they allies got ahold of one of these 152H-1s after the war they tested it. They didn't have any of the MW or other boost liquids. As one pilot put it they flew it "dry". Here it was reported to climb (without MW50 or any boost liquds) competitively with a spit 20*! A spit20 does about 5,000 FPM.
*It was a recon version. 21? 22? Once, when I remembered which it was I asked about it. It was a late ware monster spit, but a photo recon version.
So why can a test pilot fly the thing and say it was a good climber (without WEP) and yet even with WEP it's mediocre at best climb in the other set of test data?
How can these numbers be so far off? All pilots that flew it did so with ease. One Ta152 pilot encountered a large number of Soviet fighters (LA7s if I recall) and ended up killing 4 in a single fight before returning home.
In AH this thing is freakin' dog meat for any plane that's not 10,000 feet straight below it.
So how can this ultimate fighter that, by most individual accounts, is a total monster of a plane, perform so poorly on the flight tests that HTC used to model it in AH?
It just doesn't make any sense.
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Once again hard data please.
Bronk
Edit : I ask only so i can make AH comparison.
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It was not a statement. It was a question.
How can one set of "hard data" (the info HTC used, and can be found in stats for the H-1 on the internet) conflict so badly with the actual pilots that flew the plane saying "it did so much more"?
That is the question.
If pilots that flew the ta152 mixed it up in tight dogfights with Tempests and La7s (both very capable) then how can it be that this thing can barely turn around?
If flight tests listed it as "competitive in climb" (without WEP) to a spit20-something , how can it be that its best climb in the hard data is much much much less?
Edit: I've been thinking about this for a while, I did some checking a long while back when I wanted to do some Ta152 skins. I don't know if I still have a few of the webpages linked anymore. The story of the tempest fight and the LA7 fight is here on the forums somewhere. Two different stories.
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Krusty, while I tend to agree the Ta is under-modeled ... I don't want to use cherry picked LW fanboi data either.
I do however believe HT needs to look at the Ta flight model.
I find it hard to believe an AC with such large wings has such a crummy climb.
Bronk
Edit: A did a quick search for Junkers Jumo 213e .
1,725 hp available at take off
2,020 hp with MW50
If others have other data please post.
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As a boom and zoom fighter the TA F*&Cking Rocks...
Last time I flew one the only reason I got taken out is I cut my zoom short to assist another pilot who was in BIG trouble....
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Found one link telling the tale of the Ta/Tempest fight. I read another that was longer, more descriptive. The other one I read told of how one pilot was pulling tight circles, and he held the trigger on his guns then they suddenly all stopped firing, so he kept turning and turning until finally the tempest dipped a wing and crashed into the trees.
Linky linky (http://hem.passagen.se/galland/Reschke.html?k)
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Krusty it's still anecdotal , pilot skill is in question.
Like I said put me in a zeke and levi in a spit ....
He will out turn me I might just last a bit longer.
Bronk
Edit: From the link.
Oberfeldwebel Sattler, flying in No. 3 position in the German formation, lost control over his new plane and crashed vertically into the ground
Easy handling you say???
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Originally posted by JB73
in a book on LW fighters i have at home (written by americans i believe) there is an account of a ta152 in a dogfight with a tempest (yeha i know not a spit 14)
the fight was at tree top level, both pilots were scared of clipping a wing on high pines.
the ta152 owned the tempest supposedly in every manuever, flat turn, roll, climb, speed, everything.
IIRC the tempest pilot was a good stick, some veteran with a bunch of kills, but got caught.
just ym thoughts
From the same thread, more accurate I think:
Originally posted by Nashwan
Reschke's account:
So now it was two against two as the ground level dogfight began. We knew the Tempest to be a very fast fighter, used by the British to chase and shoot down our V-1's/ But here, in a fight which was never to climb above 50 metres, speed would not play a big part. The machines ability to turn would be all important.
Pulling ever-tighter turns I got closer and closer to the Tempest, never once feeling I was even approaching the limit of the Ta's capabilities. And in order to keep out of my sights the Tempest pilot was being forced to take increasingly dangerous evasive action. When he flicked over onto the opposite wing I knew his last attempt to turn inside me had failed.
The first burst of fire from my Ta-152 caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage. The enemy aircraft shuddered noticeably and, probably as an instinctive reaction, the Tempest pilot immediately yoked into a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage.
Now there was no escape for the Tempest. I pressed my gun buttons a second time, but after a few rounds my weapons fell silent, and despite all my efforts to clear them, refused to fire another shot. I can no longer remember just who and what I didn't curse. But fortunately the Tempest pilot did not recognise my predicament as he'd already taken hits.
Instead he continued desperately to twist and turn and I positioned myself so that I was always just within his field of vision. Eventually - inevitably he stalled. The Tempest's left wing dropped and he crashed into the woods immediately below us." [/B]
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Originally posted by Bronk
Krusty it's still anecdotal , pilot skill is in question.
Like I said put me in a zeke and levi in a spit ....
He will out turn me I might just last a bit longer.
Bronk
Edit: From the link.
Easy handling you say???
There's a difference between having a fight between a spit and a zero and saying "it was close but I out turned him" and saying "I never even came close to the full turn rate for my aircraft".
As for the crash they attribute that to pilot error or some major malfunction. I believe it. That late in the war they had major maintenance problems. Reschke is reported to have chased down a Mossie but lost it because his supercharger failed in mid flight. Imagine if the entire engine just died mid flight and you were under 50m alt. I'd imagine you'd plunge in too.
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The first burst of fire from my Ta-152 caught the Tempest in the tail and rear fuselage. The enemy aircraft shuddered noticeably and, probably as an instinctive reaction, the Tempest pilot immediately yoked into a starboard turn, giving me an even greater advantage.
Now were some controls cut ?
Did he have full deflection?
That's why you cant use anecdotal evidence.
Bronk
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Before he ever fired a shot he said "ever increasing" circles. That's a prolonged turn fight before anything is fired (no damage).
What do you get when 2 planes are tested by the same side? the same thing: Planes seeing if they can out turn each other in flat turns. I think it's a very strong indicator. It's qualitative data, not quantitative. I think AH needs a bit of this.
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Reschke tells about his combat in Ta-152s in his own words, in his own book.
Jagdgeschwader 301/302 "Wild Sau"
In defense of the Reich
with the Bf 109, Fw 190 and Ta 152.
By Willi Reschke
I posted this before in another thread:
Why do we have worthless equipment? (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176718&highlight=Reschke)
[ANECDOTE ALERT]
Here's what Reschke writes about the Ta-152 in his book (p 21, chapter nine, 'Into action with the Ta-152'):
My initial impressions:
Acceleration was so great on take-off that one's body was pressed against the back of the seat.
The Ta lifted off after only a few hundred meters.
Initial climb rate was enormous.
I had never flown an aircraft with such a tremendous wingspan.
Control forces appeared to be good.
All-round view from and freedom of movement in the cockpit were also good.
The landing speed was rather lower and thus unfamiliar.
First Impressions of the Ta 152...
...Even when taxiing one got a sense of the tremendous power produced by the Jumo 213 E. Pushing the throttle forward resulted in tremendous acceleration which pressed one hard against the seat back. The force was such that pilots were hesistant to apply full power for the first few take-offs. The aircraft lifted off effortlessly at 210 km/h after a short take-off run. One scarcely noticed the retraction of the undercarriage and flaps. This was a big difference from other versions of the Fw 190, which sagged noticeably when the flaps were raised. The enormous thrust of the propeller with its broad 60cm blades and the great wingspan were positively noticeable. Rate of climb was 17.5 m/s to a height of 5,000 meters. It took twelve minutes to reach a height of 10,000 meters, which was equivalent to an average rate of climb of 14.2 m/s.
...At an altitude of 10,000 meters the Ta 152 reacted perfectly to control inputs, by comparison at that height the Fw 190A-8 was already unstable and reacted rather sluggishly to control inputs. Not until a height of 12,000 meters did one feel the that the limit of performance of had been reached.
During the conversion program comparison flights were carried out with the Gruppe's remaining Fw 190A-8s, with mock combats playing a prominent role. This provided an opportunity to test the performance capabilities of the Ta 152 and to see if this aircraft was really as good as was claimed. These mock combats repeatedly showed that the Ta 152 was much superior in a dogfight. Especially at heights from 6,000 to 8,000 meters, where most fighter combat took place, one had the impression that the Ta 152 could turn on the spot.
The Tempest was known as a very fast aircraft, with which the English had been able to catch and shoot down the V 1. In this engagement, however, speed played a less important role: at low level an aircraft's maneuverability was more important. As I approached, my opponent pulled up from a low level attack and I attacked out of a left hand turn.
Both pilots realized that this was a fight to the finish, and from the outset both used every tactical and piloting ploy in an attempt to gain an advantage. At that height neither could afford to make a mistake, and for the first time I was able to see what the Ta 152 could really do.
Twisting and turning, never more then 50 meters above the ground, I closed range on the Tempest. At no time did I get the feeling that my machine had reached the limit of its performance. The tempest pilot quite understandably had to undertake risky maneuvers to avoid a fatal burst from my guns. As my Ta 152 closed in on the Tempest, I could see it was on the verge of rolling the other way: an indication that it could not turn any tighter. The first burst from my guns struck the Tempest in the rear fuselage and tail. The Tempest pilot reacted by immediately flicking his aircraft into a right-hand turn, which increased my advantage even further. There was no escape for the Tempest now. I pressed the firing buttons again, but my guns remained silent. Recharging the them did no good: my guns refused to fire even a single shot. I can't remember whom I cursed at that moment. Luckily the Tempest pilot was unaware of my bad luck, for he had already had a sample. He continued to twist and turn, and I positioned my Ta 152 so that he always had a view pf my machines belly. Then came the moment when the Tempest went into a high-speed stall: it rolled left and crashed into a wood. This combat was certainly unique, having been played out at heights which were often just 10 meters above the trees and rooftops. Throughout I never had the feeling that my Ta 152 had reached its performance limit, instead it reacted to the slightest input control, even though we were practically at ground level.
Reschke also recounts combat over / near Berlin with Yak-9s. Reschke was able to out maneuver them and get behind them. He shot number 4 down. 2 Yak-9s escaped while Reschke engaged number one and shot it down as well stating: 'his Yak 9 was hopelessly inferior to my Ta 152'. This was Reschke's last combat of the war.
[/ANECDOTE ALERT]
You don't model a game based on anecdotes. If you feel the Ta-152 is wrong then produce something tangible that shows that. It will require a bit more research then a 'google search'...
FYI:
I can get considerably better climb rates then the 1500fpm and 3000fpm claimed by Krusty. He must be using 'auto-climb' at default speed.
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Krusty we are going to have to disagree.
We don't know the how it went down . We have one side of it because the other pilot is dead.
Did the Ta have alt advantage .
Was the temp exp tech issues.
Was the temp pilot long time vet.
I can go on.. but you will come up with more anecdotal evidence to back it up.
[SIZE=8]AND[/SIZE]
I believe HT said he wont use anecdotal evidence.
Have fun tilting with windmills.
Since your stuck on this I'll leave you to it.
Bronk
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The auto climb at default speed is by HTCs definition the best constant climb rate. We're not talking zoom climbs, we're talking steady climbs.
HTC sets it at the best speed to produce lift and to pull the plane up by its prop. HT once said it was a mathematical function and they just set each plane's default to the best speed for it.
Climbing on anything other than default auto speed will not climb as fast. This is evident by setting the speed higher and lower and watching the climb rate drop above or below the default speed.
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Bruno
Would you happen to have any links for data on this AC?
Bronk
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Bronk, we can disagree, that's the beauty of free speech.
However, the Temp pilot was a flight instructor with 700+ hours under his belt, and despite being transitioned to temps several months prior I bet he had more experience than Reschke :) EDIT: Reschke, with 27 kills, had only flown 40 sorties total, most in 190As.
Off topic: Didn't Pyro once say he wanted to totally redo the 152 flight model? Or was that just the 190s (not counting the Ta)?
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Keep qualifying your evidence.
Like you do with almost all your arguments.
There are to many variables.
Like Bruno said back it up with numbers.
'till then I'm out.
Bronk
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Which numbers, though?
The ones that would have you believe it was a mediocre flop of a plane (the most commonly printed ones) or the ones that aren't recorded, or are overlooked, where the pilots say it turns very tightly, is a joy to fly, and all that.
You can't say "Give me numbers or shut up" (paraphrase) and I'll tell you exactly why:
The 109s and 190s in AH. They have the EXACT same numbers: speed, climb, turn radius, turn rate, but literally the entire history of AH up til 2.06/2.07 they were the worst turning planes in the game due to constant instability at any moment. The "flop" problem. HTC finally said to themselves "okay we can't fix this without rewriting the entire air flow code" -- so they rewrite the entire air flow code and now thes planes are dominating monsters. The speed is the same. The turn the same. The climb the same. What changed? The handling. The stall.
The parts not defined by the numbers.
Numbers do not a solid case make.
Having said that, if I had any other test reports I'd post 'em. I'm still waiting for somebody in the know to answer why the most common test results are so sub-par compared to actual combat reports, pilot reports, and test pilot reports. Once somebody answers that maybe I can help you.
:aok
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previous discussion (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74243&perpage=50&highlight=ta152%20tempest&pagenumber=2)
Wilbus claims they tested it possibly with a bad engine, and (as I mentioned) without any kind of boost. I wish he'd pop in and give us the numbers he has.
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Already got sucked back in.
Urchin's post
I'm going to try to quantify this perk plane known as the Ta-152. The strong points are good rolling, good firepower, great range, and great turning (once the wing tanks are empty). In my opinion that is why it is perked.
It *will* out turn a Tempest on the deck, in a flat-turn. Ok, I've never actually tested them, but I've tested the Ta152 vs the La7 and the Tempest vs the La7. With a light fue load (50% or so), the Ta-152 out turns the La7 easily. At any fuel load, the La7 out turns the Tempest.
It isn't one of the super fastest planes in the game (at least not on the deck, where it counts), but it can out-run what it can't out-turn. The exception to this may be the Spit 14, that might be able to run one down at low altitude, I'm not sure.
The P-51 doesn't out turn OR out accelerate the Ta-152, as far as I know. The -152s acceleration isn't as good as the other German planes, but I don't believe it is as slow as the P-51 either.
Anyway, thats my 2 cents on the Ta-152.
__________________
Rawr
Urchin01 ... and counting
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Keep on tilting krusty.
Bronk
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Check the Date. That might be true of the Ta152 of AH1, but most folks agree it took a big hit in AH2. [EDIT: Then again in 2.06/07, which version WAS it that they redid the air code in?]
This is interesting, quoted from poster Psyco
After testing, the Army stored the aircraft and then turned it over to the National Air Museum in 1960.
In 1998 Museum restoration staff were treating deteriorated sections of the wooden aft fuselage, fin, rudder, and right elevator when they discovered several interesting items that offered tantalizing glimpses into the airplane's shadowy past
Extensive wood rot was found in where the horizontal stabilizer joins the vertical fin. The restoration staff speculated that during testing at Wright Field, pilots and engineers became concerned that the wooden tail may have been weakened by defective glues or sabotage. They strengthened the entire area with steel plate. However, this work may have compromised flight safety because it required moving the horizontal stabilizer forward several inches, exacerbating a tail-heavy condition already known to the Germans. The restoration specialist removed the steel plate and rebuilt the tail to the original German configuration.
That alone suggests [EDIT: changed from "proves"] that any post war tests would have been inaccurate to say the least. I have no clue, does anybody know if there were official RLM tests or anything, before the war's end?
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I see now ... my anecdotal evidence is not as good as yours.:aok
Unless HT or Pyro come in here and say diff..it's the same model for the Ta.
I await your qualifying response.
Bronk
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See my post about the air code.
109s and 190s with the same hard-coded numbers, but night and day difference because the air flow code was buggy, after the bugs were fixed they were true contenders.
Ta before was much stronger as a fighter (several on these forums have commented thus, saying "in Ah1 it could really fight in a furball/hang on its prop/mix it up")
I'm not bitter or anything, It is how it is. I still want to know WHY it is like it is.
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However, this work may have compromised flight safety
There is that pesky word that ads to the speculation.
Let me point it out cuz you probably gloss it over.
[SIZE=8]MAY[/SIZE]
They cant say proof positive.
Tilt away my boy.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Krusty
Ta before was much stronger as a fighter (several on these forums have commented thus, saying "in Ah1 it could really fight in a furball/hang on its prop/mix it up")
Prove it . Like i said until HT or pyro say diff it's the same FM.
Ohh and the 109 /190 thing got better after blahh blahh blahh patch.
Every plane in the plane set got better IMHO.
There that makes it fact.
Bronk
Edit: OHH and 2003 was AH1?
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It was a direct quote from a book on the Smithsonian, not my words.
Well you take a tail heavy plane, remove the stabs, and move them a few inches closer forward, tack on steel plates and reattach the stabs.
The reason the Ta has the extra length on the tail is because it needed the stabs further back to fly properly. I'm guessing this is going to hurt the stability and (*speculation*) possibly the turn if it affects how much down force the stabs create :confused: <-- me confused.
Well it's been fun looking this up, gotta log off the BBS for the day. I hope some other folks with new info on the matter show up. It was enlightening doing a forum search for past threads on the matter. Thanks for joining in the conversation Bronk. A pleasure, as always.
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A side note. Bronk, you're an intelligent guy, I know this. For years HTC said nothing was wrong with the 109 and 190. For years, repeat, multiples of 12 months. After AH2 came out there was a noticable change. Many times after a big update folks familiar with the planes remarked on the differences in handling. These were often felt by all the pilots that flew the same plane (thus ruling out perceptions on the part of a couple people, we're talking dozens or hundreds).
Yes HTC still said nothing changed. Why? Because they didn't change any of the hard-coded tables for these planes, but the code that processed said tables did change. There were changes. The entire 109/190 community acknowledges this. Yet the table values are the same. When HTC says nothing has changed they mean the tables are still the same. That doesn't mean the planes are the same.
For you to say "HT says nothing changed, prove otherwise" smacks of trolling, I'm sorry to say. I can't tell if you're kidding or not!
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Krusty I'm not sure but i think you just call me an intelligent troll.
Nice don't like that a guy disagrees so lets call him names. Albeit pretty sounding words.
I still find it hard to believe all planes got better EXCEPT the Ta.
Bronk
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Krusty: You might as well first start with the correct numbers.
Ta152 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/models/ta152h.html)
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*pops in quickly while waiting for ride home*
I knew it was something where climb rate was almost doubled with WEP. 2400fpm without, 3600fpm with. Thanks [<-- edited, missing a word]
EDIT: HT, you used some info when you created the Ta152. Could you please let me know what the info was titled? I.e. if it was some flight test, what the name of the report was, or what have you? I'm curious to look it up somewhere if I can.
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Originally posted by Krusty
The auto climb at default speed is by HTCs definition the best constant climb rate. We're not talking zoom climbs, we're talking steady climbs.
HTC sets it at the best speed to produce lift and to pull the plane up by its prop. HT once said it was a mathematical function and they just set each plane's default to the best speed for it.
Climbing on anything other than default auto speed will not climb as fast. This is evident by setting the speed higher and lower and watching the climb rate drop above or below the default speed.
Nonsense, 'auto-climb' is based on SL not 'optimized climb speed' through out altitude range. Besides that even using HTC numbers and auto-climb the Ta-152 climbs better then what you claimed.
Read what Reschke says about climb rate in the quote below.
averaged 17.5 meters per second to 5000 meters
averaged 14.2 meters per second to 10000 meters
Now do the math and come back and tell us the average feet per minute climb rate to both altitudes.
EDIT: HT, you used some info when you created the Ta152. Could you please let me know what the info was titled? I.e. if it was some flight test, what the name of the report was, or what have you? I'm curious to look it up somewhere if I can.
HT doesn't give out this sources, neither does any other game developer. Oleg certainly won't and explained why on this forum some years ago.
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Okay, but when they allies got ahold of one of these 152H-1s after the war they tested it. They didn't have any of the MW or other boost liquids. As one pilot put it they flew it "dry". Here it was reported to climb (without MW50 or any boost liquds) competitively with a spit 20*! A spit20 does about 5,000 FPM.
*It was a recon version. 21? 22? Once, when I remembered which it was I asked about it. It was a late ware monster spit, but a photo recon version.
Assuming this is the Eric Brown test, it was a Spitfire XIX he was comparing it with.
And what he actually said was:
"The climb was somewhat steeper albeit somewhat slower than that of the British fighter, but once the 30,000ft mark had slipped past on the altimeter, the Tank fighter gave the impression of holding it's climb better than its British counterpart".
However, the Temp pilot was a flight instructor with 700+ hours under his belt, and despite being transitioned to temps several months prior I bet he had more experience than Reschke
Reschke had been flying operations for about a year, the Tempest pilot, Owen Mitchell, had started flying operations 1 month earlier.
There were two Tempests involved, the other flown by Sidney Short. They were carrying out straffing attacks on German railways when bounced by 3 Ta 152s.
Short fired a burst at one of the 152s, which crashed. Short then got involved in a fight with Reshke's wingman, which lasted some time but was eventually broken off with no result. Reschke fought Mitchell, who eventually crashed.
3 Ta 152s bouncing 2 Tempests, with a score of 1 all.
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Ofw. Sattler wasn't lost due to being fired at by Short. Reschke tells of several Ta-152s that crashed with out the cause being determined much like the case with Ofw. Sattler, which Reschke states as lost 'due to no apparent reason'.
However, who really cares about the Ta-152 in AH anyway. You could pull it from AH and none would hardly blink. That's regardless of its perceived performance.
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...Has no bearing on the Ta 152 FM debate, but in "2nd TAF Volume 3" there are two 486 Sqn Tempest pilots who make claims that day against "190s" in the area around Ludwigslust, F/L Sheddan (1650 hrs) and W/O Shaw (1930 hrs). No other 2nd TAF fighters claimed fighters on that day (April 14th), although some bomber and recce a/c were engaged.
"states as lost 'due to no apparent reason'."
That doesn't preclude enemy action. They jusy didnt know what the cause was.
The author concludes "Accounts of the combat however, suggest the Ta 152 was lost before the Tempest".
Not that that "proves" anything either, I guess without seeing gun camera film we will never know 100 percent.
Actually, the more interesting thing is the almost total lack of any recorded action against Ta 152s, but I think thats because any combat with them (either USAAF or RAF/RCAF) would have been reported as "190 long nose" fighters. I don't think it was untill after the war that the fact the Ta 152 flew in action was really understood by the Allies, it just wasn't encountered enough times to get noticed in the closing months.
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Originally posted by Krusty
HT, you used some info when you created the Ta152. Could you please let me know what the info was titled? I.e. if it was some flight test, what the name of the report was, or what have you? I'm curious to look it up somewhere if I can.
this has been asked many many times... IIRC the basic short version is HTC as a company has been collecting data for 15+ years in the business, and have personally bought on their own dime many many things. alot of this data is propritary, and copyrighted so they can't just duplicate the data.
also, why just give up to anyone (including a possible competitor) on this forum all those years of research for free?
to answer your first question in this thread.... there have been sooooooooooo many posts about the 152's FM, it is like beating on the ghost of a dead horse that has been killed, rotted, and disengrated into the dust. the data that HTC has chosen to use is what they believe is the most accurate. Dale and Doug have both said they do not average data IIRC, so that means a "comprimise" is out of the question.
hope that helps
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I didn't look that deeply into the TA152 but from a quick glance the climb rate is nothing special especially for the time it's in operation.
(Would be outclimbed by 109's and Spitfires untill very high up)
But it's a specialized high-alt interceptor, so maybe no wonder? And as well maybe heavier than the 109A series & Dora?