Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Chairboy on August 27, 2006, 11:39:18 PM
-
These parents had their 17 year old son charged with theft and sent to jail to "teach him a lesson" for taking their car without permission.
In the transport to jail, he was killed by another inmate.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/423466/821545
That sucks. Perhaps the prison system should not be used by parents to make a point?
They pressed charges, and when the judge offered bail, they chose to send him to jail.
*golf clap*
-
God only knows. The only thing I can say is the young man should not have disobeyed his parents and taken the car without permission. If you have ever had children you would know what I mean. I guess what I mean to say is maybe the young man was headed for serious trouble no matter what happened.
Still a tragedy :cry
-
You may have missed this part of the article:
no history of serious crime or violence
-
Yeah the poo's hitting the fan over this. The prisoners are transported by contractor, under 17's are not sposed to mix with over 18's. Yet they threw a 17 year old in with an older extremely violent offender. Makes you wonder if the parents passed on to the cops/guards that they were trying to teach the kid a lesson. Of course the parents are blaming the prison system for it...
Right now the the parents are in the angry phase, won't be long til they hit the guilt phase.
-
stupid parents.
just take away his playstation and TV for a week, that would do a better job.
-
well...Im shocked to hear that New Zealand has violance. I thought they got rid of violance when they outlawed guns :rolleyes:
As for the kid, well.....he should have asked before taking the car. Would have saved him some trouble.
-
Originally posted by Yeager
I thought they got rid of violance when they outlawed guns :rolleyes:
twat
-
The man that killed him gave him eternal bliss. Parents should be thank him.
-
Originally posted by Yeager
well...Im shocked to hear that New Zealand has violance. I thought they got rid of violance when they outlawed guns
No, but you do notice the extremely violant offender that killed the kid... whilst having a long criminal record had no firearms offences.
-
That'll teach him. Tough Love :aok
-
wow.
dads not getting any for a while for that brilliant idea.
Lets give billy a criminal record for using the car!
-
He won't be borrowing the car anymore, that's for sure.
I've seen a few cases, even in my extended family, of overprotective and overrestrictive parents and sheeply, shy children. The kids tend to suddenly snap out of it at about 16-18, and it isn't a pretty situation to witness, wonder if this was one of those cases.
-
As a parent with teenagers, I can see their point, sucks that it ended with a death, but on the other hand stealing the car was not a smart thing to do.
-
Originally posted by Yeager
well...Im shocked to hear that New Zealand has violance. I thought they got rid of violance when they outlawed guns
some crybaby will report you fer yer heartless callousness!!111:cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry
-
Yeah, having guns around would have solved this much better, I mean, the parents could have shot the rebellious teen in the knee, that would teach him.
-
Originally posted by Heater
As a parent with teenagers, I can see their point, sucks that it ended with a death, but on the other hand stealing the car was not a smart thing to do.
Missed the news, but the missus said the parents 'made a statement' today. The appeared to be well off well educated, upmarket home etc. IE, they probably don't have a clue about the justice system, what its *really* like inside prison, and get all their info from prisons from daily soap opera's on TV.
I don't know what the inside of our prisons are like, and thats exactly why I wouldn't send my kid up butt-rape creek without iron panties.
-
Using your mother’s car without her permission may not be smart but countless teenagers have done it. If it was treated as a crime by all parents I would be doing life and my elder brother would have been executed.. he wrecked two of my mother’s cars.
I can't believe the parents of that kid were naive enough to put their trust in the hands of the justice system just to teach him a lesson for using his Mum's car.
Like takeda suggests, there must be more to it.
-
The kid messed up.
Parents messed up.
Judge messed up for allowing the justice system to be used as a nanny for parents that could not do the job properly themselves. He should have used his brain and thrown the case out the door.
The transporter messed up.
The killer messed up.
A long list of cockups leading to this.
-
Originally posted by Nilsen
The kid messed up.
Parents messed up.
Judge messed up for allowing the justice system to be used as a nanny for parents that could not do the job properly themselves. He should have used his brain and thrown the case out the door.
The transporter messed up.
The killer messed up.
A long list of cockups leading to this.
No, the killer did his part.
-
Originally posted by Suave
No, the killer did his part.
bahhh.. you know what i mean :D
-
Originally posted by Vulcan
No, but you do notice the extremely violant offender that killed the kid... whilst having a long criminal record had no firearms offences.
Notice it? Hell... I'd expect it.
-
Originally posted by Suave
No, the killer did his part.
:lol
"borrow" mom's car today , steal a strangers car tomorrow.
-
sooo... is it pretty common there for a kid to get killed on his way to jail?
No kid has ever been taught a lesson there by spending a few days in jail?
Probly more kids have been killed in university frat initiations or drinking parties than first time car thieves killed while in transport.
The parents would have been more to blame it they had paid for his schooling acording to your guys logic.
lazs
-
My step dad tried to leave my step brother in jail for a night "to teach him a lesson" few years ago. They wouldn't let him on grounds of child negligence. My step brother currently resides in the Colorade state pen:)
If the parents want to pay for transportation and food fpor the night, go for it just don't put it on tax dollars. If the kid gets killed, **** happens, people die everyday.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
sooo... is it pretty common there for a kid to get killed on his way to jail?
No kid has ever been taught a lesson there by spending a few days in jail?
Probly more kids have been killed in university frat initiations or drinking parties than first time car thieves killed while in transport.
The parents would have been more to blame it they had paid for his schooling acording to your guys logic.
lazs
No kid has ever been killed otw to jail here that i have heard of for the simple reason that they are below 18 and does not get sent to jail.
Dunno if anyone has sent their kid (over 18) to jail, but i know some parents with drug "kids" have done so to get them off the street... Stupid parents. If the kid knew something about anything criminal before he went to jail he would learn tons more on the inside. That beeing said, kids under the age of 18 do not get sent to jail here but to some other institution, and thank cod for that.
-
Originally posted by john9001
:lol
"borrow" mom's car today , steal a strangers car tomorrow.
We used to "borrow" mom's car while she slept, none of us ever turned into criminals
-
Originally posted by FUNKED1
That'll teach him. Tough Love :aok
And permissiveness has made our society so much better. :aok
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
These parents had their 17 year old son charged with theft and sent to jail to "teach him a lesson" for taking their car without permission.
In the transport to jail, he was killed by another inmate.
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/423466/821545
That sucks. Perhaps the prison system should not be used by parents to make a point?
They pressed charges, and when the judge offered bail, they chose to send him to jail.
*golf clap*
This is interesting as it shows two type of people. On one hand you have those that skip the misdeeds of the kid and the killer and go right for the parents throat.
On the other hand you have those that blame the kid for starting the whole mess and ultimately the killer.
Seems like a classic liberal/conservative bout to me :P
-
Seems to me the contractor is at fault here for transporting a minor with older prisoners. I don't blame the parents for this one. Seems the contractor violated rules on the transportation of prisoners and will probably face a lawsuit.
-
Originally posted by Elfie
Seems to me the contractor is at fault here for transporting a minor with older prisoners. I don't blame the parents for this one. Seems the contractor violated rules on the transportation of prisoners and will probably face a lawsuit.
oh yea- and then there's the lawyer thing - skip everyone and go for the deep pocket :p
-
I don't see why the parents are upset and want an investigation, they started the ball rolling, sh&t happens.
shamus
-
I guess I am still missing the point....
No kid has ever been scared away from commiting crimes or getting straightened out by a little jail time? they all learn how to be master criminals from the mensa candidate criminals they meet and hang around with for the month or so they are in?
nelson says they are not normally in danger so... what's the big deal?
One kid died so now the whole idea is dumb? Wouldn't that mean that allowing him to join a frat would be like.... 100 times more irresponsible?
Have you guys been to jail? the county jails are not pleasant. I would say that most middle class kids would get a wake up call from spending 30 days or so in county. They would probly be in less danger than their normal on the street skateboarding or whatever.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Shamus
I don't see why the parents are upset and want an investigation, they started the ball rolling, sh&t happens.
shamus
Their son was killed. I don't thnk they expected the death penalty for stealing their car.
-
[
Right now the the parents are in the angry phase, won't be long til they hit the guilt phase. [/B]
You mean the sue phase, this is the USA.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
I guess I am still missing the point....
No kid has ever been scared away from commiting crimes or getting straightened out by a little jail time? they all learn how to be master criminals from the mensa candidate criminals they meet and hang around with for the month or so they are in?
nelson says they are not normally in danger so... what's the big deal?
One kid died so now the whole idea is dumb? Wouldn't that mean that allowing him to join a frat would be like.... 100 times more irresponsible?
Have you guys been to jail? the county jails are not pleasant. I would say that most middle class kids would get a wake up call from spending 30 days or so in county. They would probly be in less danger than their normal on the street skateboarding or whatever.
lazs
Yeah, and when they complain of how hard their life is, we'll drop them off in the middle east for a few days.
-
Originally posted by lukster
Their son was killed. I don't thnk they expected the death penalty for stealing their car.
I'm sure they didn't, but they had total control of the situation and chose to give it up, I feel sorry for the kid not the parents, maybee they learned something from this.
shamus
-
Unless you think that all criminals deserve to die as soon as they enter custody, a lawsuit seems absolutely justified in this case.
J_A_B
-
Originally posted by Shamus
I'm sure they didn't, but they had total control of the situation and chose to give it up, I feel sorry for the kid not the parents, maybee they learned something from this.
shamus
I have to disagree. If they had control he would have been punished, possibly forestalling more serious criminal activity, and turned loose perhaps a bit wiser.
It was not their fault that he was murdered. It was the governments fault as those in charge are responsible for the safety of their prisoners.
-
Shame really.. Parent could have asked the judge to give him about a billion hours of community service.
I bet the judge would have been more than willing.
Bronk
-
he borrowed his moms car. im sure most of you did stupid **** to your parents when you were that age or younger and got away with it. some of you are making out that it is a heinous crime and he deserved it.
i dont feel that he needed a jail sentence, criminal record or anything. it was a gross over reaction and now they will have to live with the guilt.
-
Originally posted by Bronk
Shame really.. Parent could have asked the judge to give him about a billion hours of community service.
I bet the judge would have been more than willing.
Bronk
I don't think that would have happened without them filing charges for theft. Once that happens the parents may not get to decide where he goes before bail is posted.
I'm sure we aren't getting the whole story. This kid may have been completely out of control and the parents felt they had no other choice. Just because he didn't have a police record does not mean he wasn't giving his parents hell.
My youngest likes to party a lot. If he winds up in jail as a result of a dwi he's gonna spend some time there. I damn sure expect his life to be safe there.
-
Originally posted by lukster
This kid may have been completely out of control and the parents felt they had no other choice. Just because he didn't have a police record does not mean he wasn't giving his parents hell.
I'm doubt a jail is the best possible enviroment - Lots of bad influence and not the kind of friends you'd like your kid to have. After jail, the kid would have a permanent criminal record, which can be a pain in the arse in the future. It's a really good way to totally ruin the future of a kid.
-
Offenses as a minor arent usually part of your permanent record iirc.
-
Originally posted by Fishu
I'm doubt a jail is the best possible enviroment - Lots of bad influence and not the kind of friends you'd like your kid to have. After jail, the kid would have a permanent criminal record, which can be a pain in the arse in the future. It's a really good way to totally ruin the future of a kid.
My youngest son is 23. He's old enough to learn from a few days in jail. I wouldn't send a 17 year old to jail unless I believed he was headed for bigger trouble.
-
Ok, just read the article. There is a picture of a van. If that is the same type of vehicle used to transport this kid (or something similar), how did the driver NOT know something was going on behind him?
Reports we have atm say the kid was beaten and strangled to death but later revived and put on life support.
How does the driver NOT know something of that nature is going on in a vehicle that small?
-
http://tvnz.co.nz/view/page/423466/821949
An arrest has been made in the death of this teen.
A 25 year-old Auckland man has been charged with the murder of 17-year-old Liam Ashley who was beaten to death in the back of a prison van on Thursday night.
Also, it appears that this incident was not the first time this young man had been in serious trouble with his parents.
From the same article:
His family, who are devastated at losing their fourth and youngest child, say the charge was meant to act as a deterrent.
"This was the last resort, not the first resort. His tragic death is devastating to our family who are going through all the emotions possible," says Ashley's uncle, Brett Ashley.
Seems to me, the parents put their trust in *the system* and the system failed to protect this young man from a violent prisoner.
-
Originally posted by Nilsen
...thank cod for that.
Man, you Norwegians really love your fish, don't you.
-
Originally posted by lukster
My youngest son is 23. He's old enough to learn from a few days in jail.
What about the record? It could totally ruin his chances to get any kind of high security job. For example he couldn't get a job from an airport.
-
Maybe if he takes things that don't belong to him, he shouldn't be working security in an airport?
-
Originally posted by BTW
Maybe if he takes things that don't belong to him, he shouldn't be working security in an airport?
I'm not sure that "stealing" parents car is serious enough. If I had a kid, I wouldn't want to ruin his chances in life by giving him a criminal record of "stealing" my car. I'd be sure as hell pissed off, but giving the kid more trouble doesn't help at all, on the contrary. If the kid wouldn't stop "borrowing" my car, then I would tell him to fk off from my house - it is still a better choice than throwing into a jail.
-
Yep... seems this kid was a spoiled brat who never learned from any conventional methods...
His parents did the right thing by giveing him a little jail time now before he figured out how to earn a lot of jail time.
Unfortunately... the system screwed up... It happens... It happens a lot more in universities but... it happens.
So now you all want the parents to suffer a guilt trip. What about the parents who let their kid go to a university and he dies at a frat party? Should they be flogged and made to feel guilty for allowing their child to face such dangers as a university?
Again.. you guys who are so quick to condem the parents... have you ever been to jail? How bout a university party? A night out driniking in a stolen car?
Let's compare the danger aspect.... I have experianced all of the above... I would say that the stolen car or university party have the highest risk factor. How fast did you go in the stolen car? I have been in more fights at univesity parties than in jail.
What a bunch of wussies.
The parents should sue.. the system screwed up.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Nilsen
The kid messed up.
Parents messed up.
Judge messed up for allowing the justice system to be used as a nanny for parents that could not do the job properly themselves. He should have used his brain and thrown the case out the door.
The transporter messed up.
The killer messed up.
A long list of cockups leading to this.
You're making waaaaay too much sense for this forum Nilsen....plz try to refrain from open mindedness in the future, it's a no no here.;)
-
nelson is right except... I still see no evidence that the parents screwed up..
The system says that you can't hit your children and that you have to send em to a public school and that they have "rights" even as minors...
then... when the parents use the system and say... "ok" you guys screwed him up we will use your method of punishment and try that"
You guys are all saying that the parents screwed up.... between the legal system and the school system... the parents have less and less comparative input.
lazs
-
I think the parents willingly gave up parental authority and tried to use the justice system to abrogate their responsibility. It is unacceptable that he was killed, and the transport is obviously responsible for that, but like with air crashes, this was clearly a 'chain of avoidable errors'. The parents decision was one of the links in that chain.
-
sooo... you guys are saying that the government should have less control over our children?
I agree. I am for vouchers.
lazs
-
this was clearly a 'chain of avoidable errors'. The parents decision was one of the links in that chain.
====
this train of thought is foolish. The parents respected and upheld the rule of law and they are part of the chain of failure? With your way of thinking then the parents should be held criminally liable in their sons death. What foolishness.
-
no doubt the parents were a bit naive or ignorant about jails and prisons. But I don't fault them for trying to get thier kid "scared straight." My dad let me spend a couple days in jail when I was 17, and it was a hard dose of reality for me, and I did straighten up.
When the parents are done sueing the living ***** out of that NZ Corrections Department, maybe they can find a way to move on with their lives.
-
Chairboy, some kids just dont respond to their parents due to their own rebellious attitudes. My own son was this way. Before you say the rebellious attitude is the fault of the parents....just wait a few years until your kids become teenagers. Virtually all teenagers go through some sort of rebellion against their parents at some point.
My sons rebellion wasnt just against his parents, it was against all authority figures. Some kids have a tougher time with it than others do. Due to the parents comment that sending this kid to jail was a last resort, not a first resort leads me to believe that this young man had problem with rebellion and his parents pulled the tough love card in an attempt to get this young man to straighten up.
Just some food for thought.
-
Originally posted by Elfie
Virtually all teenagers go through some sort of rebellion against their parents at some point.
Right, but "virtually none" of teenagers end up being sent to jail by their parents.
He borrowed her car without permission. That was the reason they had him arrested. They didn't have him arrested for assault, didn't have him arrested for burglary, nothing like that.
You see "last resort" and assume that this is the final straw in a litany of terrible offenses.
I see "last resort", and based on what the arrest was for and the fact that he didn't have any criminal record, and I see a last resort that was a lot closer to the 'first resort' of most parents.
BTW, I went through a rebellious phase when I was a teen. And I borrowed the car w/o permission. Oh, and my parents didn't send me to jail, they grounded my bellybutton and talked to me about acceptable behavior, consequences, and what would happen if I pulled a stunt like that when i was an adult. I haven't stolen a car since, believe it or not.
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
Right, but "virtually none" of teenagers end up being sent to jail by their parents.
He borrowed her car without permission. That was the reason they had him arrested. They didn't have him arrested for assault, didn't have him arrested for burglary, nothing like that.
You see "last resort" and assume that this is the final straw in a litany of terrible offenses.
I see "last resort", and based on what the arrest was for and the fact that he didn't have any criminal record, and I see a last resort that was a lot closer to the 'first resort' of most parents.
BTW, I went through a rebellious phase when I was a teen. And I borrowed the car w/o permission. Oh, and my parents didn't send me to jail, they grounded my bellybutton and talked to me about acceptable behavior, consequences, and what would happen if I pulled a stunt like that when i was an adult. I haven't stolen a car since, believe it or not.
How do you know that wasn't the tenth time he'd taken the car? He might have been stealing money and doing drugs too. Fact remains none of us know how bad it was. All of us know the parents had every right to expect that their son wouldn't be murdered in jail. We aren't talking a federal prison here.
-
Every kid is an individual Chairboy and not one of them responds exactly like another one.
BTW, I went through a rebellious phase when I was a teen. And I borrowed the car w/o permission. Oh, and my parents didn't send me to jail, they grounded my bellybutton and talked to me about acceptable behavior, consequences, and what would happen if I pulled a stunt like that when i was an adult. I haven't stolen a car since, believe it or not.
Tryed that with my son and guess what? In one ear and right back out the other one.
I was divorced from my son's mother, she remarried and I didnt get to have a whole lot of input (her choice, not mine) in my sons life when he was younger.
You see "last resort" and assume that this is the final straw in a litany of terrible offenses.
I see "last resort", and based on what the arrest was for and the fact that he didn't have any criminal record, and I see a last resort that was a lot closer to the 'first resort' of most parents.
No, I dont see a final straw in a litany of terrible offenses.....you are assuming. What I do see is parents that are at their wits end on how to *get through* to this young man. I've been in their shoes. They were not the first parents to decide to let their children go to jail and I doubt they will be the last. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesnt, but you wont know if it will help your child unless you try.
We also dont know what other measures these parents tryed or what other *stunts* this young man pulled.
-
No one here was there & knows the situation with the kid, maybe he needed more than conventional punishment but I think we all can agree taking the family sedan w/o permission is not a death sentence crime. But anytime you are confronted with arrest, you could be killed.
I knew a kid who lived down the street from me when I was a teen who was a little rough around the edges, he was throwing a fit & his parents, who were fairly old to have a teenage son, called the police & told them he was tearing the place up & they couldn't control him. Well, when the cops got there they ordered him to come outside over a loudspeaker & he did. When he came out, he was holding a piece of water pipe he was wrecking the place with & a local detective named Pokey Gibson mistook the water pipe (he claims) for a gun & gutted the boy with a 12 gauge shotgun. He died right there on the porch.
I don't have the answers, but I would never call the police on my kids. If I couldn't handle them i suppose I would get help from some friends & evict them from the house. I just don't know; I am thankful I am not faced with such dilemmas.
-
Originally posted by Elfie
What I do see is parents that are at their wits end on how to *get through* to this young man.
I understand, and perhaps it was even the right decision.
My assertion has been that it's very possible that their "last straw" was closer to my "first straw".
In a vacuum of information, it's easy to churn around and speculate, and I don't mean to suggest that you're wrong and that I'm sure the parents are at fault. I'm just saying that, based on the info available, I think it's very possible that they involved the police too soon.
Personally, I can't imagine giving up that type of control to the government willingly. I think they stick their nose in personal business too much already, the idea of calling them over to 'help' me raise my kids... no thanks.
-
Well Chairboy, I hope your kids dont give you the kind of grief my son (and apparently this young man) gave us. I sincerely hope you never have to make this kind of descion.
I actually had custody of my son for awhile. I sent him back to his mother when my wife and I decided that we didnt want his influence on our daughter (only had one daughter at the time.) His mother signed papers giving custody to the state when I sent him back. She was sick and tired of his stealing, lying and running away. (Among other things) His stealing was so bad we had to put a dead bolt lock on our bedroom door, anything of value went behind the locked door.
Dont judge this young mans parents to harshly. We just dont know what else had been going on.
My son has finally pulled his head from his anal orifice, but it took getting into trouble over an ATM card that wasnt his, having to pay back several thousand dollars and spending some time in a juvenile facility. Now he is developing into a fine young man who is also becoming a fine husband and father.
-
Kids can turn rotten if they associate with scumbags at school. Soon enough, they become scumbags themselves.
-
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10398589
Liam's parents decided to press criminal charges against their son after he took their vehicle without permission in a bid to stop him getting into more serious trouble after a series of "minor misdemeanours".
He was appearing before the North Shore Court on a number of charges including breach of bail, burglary and driving while forbidden
He was on a final warning from the court after breaching bail -- including a curfew -- a number of times.
The kid was on a rocky path and his parents must have been desperate and out of options. It's not their fault. The inadequacies of the corrections department in Auckland were exposed, and not for the first time.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10398970
The man accused of killing Liam Ashley allegedly yelled to guards rushing to help the teen: "I've done enough damage. You can't save him. I've broken his neck."
The death penalty needs to be reinstated in NZ, we have too many vicious killers like this scumbag for the comparative size of the country and population.
-
The scumbag p.o.s. should have his hands cut off & forced down his throat.