Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: TracerX on August 29, 2006, 04:05:26 PM
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Story:
http://www.ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=214690
Fairly big news in Utah and Arizona. He seems to be a pretty creepy guy.
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Didn't he set up a Mormon towne in Colorado City and expel boys in their teens and younger so that older men could have more wives? The boys were banished for petty things, or nothing at all. WHat a creep.
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A polygamist is one of the 10 most wanted criminals in America? Ummmm :rolleyes:
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Yes, that was a charge that some are making against him, and I would tend to believe the charges. However, that is an easy claim for any disgruntled ex-member to make. It will be interesting to see what kind of evidence comes to the surface.
BTW, be careful with terms, Mormons and this group do not associate themselves with each other.
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IS polygamy illegal in the US? And why would a polygamist be one of the top 10 wanted amogst serial killers and murderers?
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Originally posted by Viking
A polygamist is one of the 10 most wanted criminals in America? Ummmm :rolleyes:
It seems odd that he would be in that group, but as I heard the Arizona Attorney General say, one of the reasons he is on the list is his general disregard for any legal authority. He placed himself above the law, and Utah and Arizona did not like that. The fact that he was involved in crimes against underaged children was the other huge factor in placing him on the list.
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My mistake, as most Mormons don't practice polygamy, this group that broke off and established their own church.
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I see. Still find it strange though.
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Let me clarify my previous statement. He is a fugitive. He ignored orders to appear in court. The charges were related to the abuse of children.
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All in all... about a creepy as scientology.
Jeffs is obviously a megalomaniac, but... polygamy should be legal IMHO.
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I can't believe someone would seek poligamy. One wife is challenge enough. There are very few men who could manage more than one household (wife/family). My guess is that many of the people in this community are having significant problems trying to accomplish this.
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Ugh, Hearing discussions about this on the radio right now. Pretend your in High School. Your girl friend is suddenly married to your friend's dad down the street. This is the kind of thing that was happening there. Apparently, this started after Warren Jeffs took control there. I would be grabbing my pitchfork and torch if I was involved.
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multiple wives would be the least of your problems. My Cod, Man! MULTIPLE MOTHERS - IN - LAW!!!!:cry
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Originally posted by nirvana
Didn't he set up a Mormon towne in Colorado City and expel boys in their teens and younger so that older men could have more wives? The boys were banished for petty things, or nothing at all. WHat a creep.
I'm sure he coulda worked out a deal with Michael Jackson...
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Be interesting to see how it plays out. I'm curious given the control claims in the article who in the community will testify and in which jurisdiction.
Viking, Seem you have trouble understanding the situation as to whjy he was considered so dangerous. Perhaps if you read the article you would understand why. It was fairly well explained there, including why it was a federal case to begin with.
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Good read on the topic: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385509510
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He is also wanted in Canada for the same thing. Arranging for what ammounts to child rape is not legal here, or in the US, from what I understand. He's going to get his overdue day in court.
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Originally posted by BTW
I'm sure he coulda worked out a deal with Michael Jackson...
I'm sorry. Child molestation is no joke, but that was funny.:lol
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Could it be that part of the reason these groups have been allowed to exist for so long is because putting the father in jail puts more than one household in chaos? Sounds like a poor excuse for leinency, but it seems that if the offense is more than just poligamy, the foot comes down pretty hard as it did on Jeffs. I wonder how this group in particular will survive in the comming months/years. I have to hope many of them look a little harder at what they are doing.
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again... agree with sandie on this one... If the guy wants to be married to a couple more wives then he is simply breaking the membership rules... the marriages after the first should simply not be recognized by the state.
He has every right to live with as many women as he wants and call them wives if he wants. The state has the right to recognize only the first.
As for being on the 10 most wanted list.... I think that should say a lot more about our secret police than most of my posts on the matter..
We are getting screwed on the whole secret police thing.... probly close to 100,000 various secret police in the U.S, and they are worthless except to terrorize the citizens and to arrest the most harmless person on the "tne most wanted list"
The BATF is called "F troop" the FBI is called "Famous But Incompetent" and I think we all get a good laugh when we hear the CIA mentioned.... DEA? sheesh... drugs are more plentiful and cheaper with every hard earned dollar we give em.
lazs
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I'd take it even further than that Lasz.
Why does the state care about marital status? Other than issues of ownership, it really shouldn't be any of their business.
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Originally posted by Viking
A polygamist is one of the 10 most wanted criminals in America? Ummmm :rolleyes:
Jail the sinners, I feel safer now don't you?
Good for him if he found more than 1 chick to service him, who decided that was a crime anyway?
He hasn't been on a killing spree, bought cell phones for Hezbollah or taken pictures of any homeland security guards... he might deserve a trip to the big house for being a wacko banana, where he'll be summarily murdered, but man... this little wienie being characterized as some top 10 threat where the Govt has four press conferences at the same time breaking their arms patting each-other on the back?
Funny thing is the Feds had no idea where this guy was until he fell into their lap, it was dumb luck they caught him... he was stopped for a traffic infraction by some super trooper looking to scratch out a ticket.
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Laws against polygamy seem pretty dang dumb. Just another example of government intrusiveness, but I suppose it's the kind of intrusiveness the usual suspects seem to find acceptable. Funny that.
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Polygamy was not the offense that landed Jeffs on the Most wanted list. It was underage sex charges, and the organizing of a network that preyed on the young women of the community. The State has every right to protect their citizens, most especially the young and defenceless children. How does a young 14 year old girl defend herself in a community like the one Jeffs created? They would have to run away from home, and the State does not see that as a solution.
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sandie...you will have to explain a little further on that. At this point I believe that marriage is a contract between a man and a woman and that it is used by the state to assighn certain legal benifiets. I also believe the the religious community has a stake in legitamizing the union too.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
sandie...you will have to explain a little further on that. At this point I believe that marriage is a contract between a man and a woman and that it is used by the state to assighn certain legal benifiets. I also believe the the religious community has a stake in legitamizing the union too.
lazs
I'm saying that there's no reason why that contract can't be extended further. The legal benefits whatever they may be can simply be extended from one partner to two or three or more and also for same sex partnerships. Just to be clear though... I do not believe that there should be any tax benefit or penalty assigned because of marital status. It's none of the governments business.
I also do not want to get wrapped around the axle on a semantic argument. The terms domestic partnership, civil union, and marriage are for all intents and purposes the same thing.
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For those wondering WTF is so bad about this guy......
It's alledged like previously claimed that alot of the young boys in the group where outcasted where as many of the girls, as young as 13 where partnered up with 50-60 year old men. These young girls were brainwashed and abused beyond all fasion of the mind. When they didn't tow the "family line" they got the crap beat out of them and would be locked up and starved for days, yet they were constantly beraded with psycological torture that consitantly made them want to stay with the family. My wife and I where watching Dr. Phil one boring afternoon (gawd too many of my stupid stories start this way) and he had 2 teenagers that escaped from there and they where TOTALLY screwed up in the head. As much as they where abused and disgusted by the fact of arranged marraige that young they still had a deep fealing that they needed to go back to their familys to fit in. It was really sad.
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Stockholm syndrome?
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sandie... that makes no sense to me. What you are asking for is a disolution of the conventional marriage except in religious circles.
I believe that marrigage is something that has evolved as far as the state is concerned because we (the people) felt that a religious ceremony was also benifical to us as a people because of the way it paired people and raised the children (future)... all the (state) benifiets were based on that. the people for right or wrong felt that there was some benifiet to conventional marriage and rewarded it.
There is nothing wrong with that... everyone has the same right to participate. Those who do not wish to may have some other kind of contract in order to fit their needs.
I don't think that we need to recognize this guys wives after the first as legit but he has the right to call em whatever he wants and, if they are of age and menataly fit... to consentualy have any relationship he wishes.
Anyone who wishes to have the benifiets of a marriage outside of the conventional rules needs to fight to get people to believe that they are worth the effort (expense) and make it happen. Not piggyback in on an established institution that had specific goals and rules.
If marrigage becomes meaningless so far as male and female couples are concerned then you have a point... what difference does it make what you call what you do?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
sandie... that makes no sense to me. What you are asking for is a disolution of the conventional marriage except in religious circles.
The religious circlers have laid claim to the term, "marriage." I say, fine. Let them lay claim to it. What the church calls a marriage, the state can call a civil union. As far as the state is concerned, the name isn't important. What is important is that state has recognized a social contract between adults. It's my opinion that the state need not worry about whether social contracts are between just one man and one woman. As far as the state in concerned, these social contracts need not be heterosexual nor monogamous. It's none of their business.
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Originally posted by Sandman
The religious circlers have laid claim to the term, "marriage." I say, fine. Let them lay claim to it. What the church calls a marriage, the state can call a civil union. As far as the state is concerned, the name isn't important. What is important is that state has recognized a social contract between adults. It's my opinion that the state need not worry about whether social contracts are between just one man and one woman. As far as the state in concerned, these social contracts need not be heterosexual nor monogamous. It's none of their business.
Well said. Whenever we have the discussion on here about "gay marriage" I allways make the same point: Gay marriage isn't about equal rights, it's about special rights. States should have civil unions that apply to all strait or gay.
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sandie... that is fine if you wish to go the other way and dissolve marriage and all it's rulesand, more importantly... the benifiets.... that can be arranged I suppose but...
That is not what gays and others want... they want to piggyback in on the benifiets that were won because people in the U.S. believed that a marriage between a man and a woman was good for the country.
There is nothing stopping a gay from marriage.... so long as it is to someone of the oppossite sex. There is nothing stopping anyone from entering into a legal contract.
Either dissolve marriage and start over or... start something new for people who don't like the rules.
lazs
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Hmmm... benefits.
IMHO, the only benefits of making a partnership "official" in the eyes of the state should be:
1. Property. When I pass, my partner (or partners) takes ownership of my property.
2. Medical. In the event I cannot speak for myself, my partner (or partners) should be able to make medical decisions for me.
Off the top of my head... I don't see the legal benefit of marriage other than those listed above. If you think I'm missing something, please point it out.
With the above benefits, I don't see how heterosexuality, homsexuality, monogamy, or polygamy make any difference. It's a social/civil contract. Simple as that.
Again... don't get wrapped around the axle on the terms. As far as I'm concerned, marriage, civil unions, and domestic partnerships should all be one in the same in the eyes of the state.
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I am not the one wrapped up on the axle of terms... I understand what marriage means and what a social contract means.
If you wish to dissolve the concept of marriage and make a new one that encompasses everything then that is up to you to try.
The benifiets are as you described and were given to a male and a female in order to raise children in the best possible way according to how the people of the country felt at the time.
This can be changed I suppose but in fairness... you need to either disolve the institution of marriage and start all over again or... form a new type of union and make new rules that apply to it
not really complex but... one needs to be fair. Fair would not be to simply piggyback any relationship that comes down the pike onto the established one.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
not really complex but... one needs to be fair. Fair would not be to simply piggyback any relationship that comes down the pike onto the established one.
lazs
I don't see the unfairness. Please elaborate.
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I thought that I had. the benifiets were won over time under the pretense that they would reward the stable relationship of a man and a woman in marriage... it was supposed to be the ideal way to raise the future (children) of America and there is some merit to that theory.
What is fair to the citizens of America is that if we no longer find this valuable then we disolve it.
I say this as someone who has been married and someone who is raising kids now.
What reason would we need to change the rules? The rules are fine as is. Everyone has the same chance. if your sexual preference or lack thereof makes you not want to participate then there are a number of legal contracts that you can taylor to your oddball situation.
lazs
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I'll ask again. How are homosexual or polygamous marriages unfair to monogamous heterosexuals?
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Originally posted by TracerX
It seems odd that he would be in that group, but as I heard the Arizona Attorney General say, one of the reasons he is on the list is his general disregard for any legal authority. He placed himself above the law, and Utah and Arizona did not like that. The fact that he was involved in crimes against underaged children was the other huge factor in placing him on the list.
Arranging marriages with underaged kids? These guys can't get laid by an adult woman or something? Take a look at this guy, he's got pedophile written all over him.
I say round up the whole lot and shoot 'em.
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sandie... they aren't..... unless you think breaking the rules is unfair. One of us is being obtuse.
I personaly don't care if the guy has 30 women living there consentualy but if he wants to be married by the current rules... the state will only recognize one of em.
If he tries to defraud the state by lieing on his permit then he will have broken plainly spelled out laws.
He is wellcome to enter into any other legal contract tho.
I do find it to be proof of how wasteful all of our secret police agencies are that he was in the "10 most wanted list" and.... that they couldn't find some guy who was dragging a freigging buttload of women around with him...
We are getting screwed on the whole nija secret police thing.
lazs