Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Yeager on August 29, 2006, 10:43:30 PM
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Why did HTC model the T34 if the reload times built into the cannon are so poor that no one hardly uses it?
Why would the reload times be so different between the T34 76mm and the PNZR 75mm?
Is there some sort of historical data on the reload time of the T34 76mm being so poor that HTC would actually pork the gameplay usage of the T34 to accomodate the historical data?
WTF is going on here?
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IIRC
It is because of the cramped turret in the T-34.
Bronk
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crap. is this the early two man turret?
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Originally posted by Yeager
crap. is this the early two man turret?
Yup. Gunner and TC, no loader.
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Ok, I have my answer. Thanks
Now for the whine....why did Pyro decide to give us the one balled version of this great tank. Its almost useless against the PNZR and tiger......
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Tigers yes.. panzers no.
Bronk
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The T-34 is pretty worthless the way it is modelled now.
Pull up some of my old posts on it, I've been *****ing about it for years.
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A lightly perked T-34/85 would be a welcome addition.
So would just about any other new vehicle.
But don't sell the current T-34 too short. It takes a hit slightly better than the panzer due to the propensity for shots to glance off, the turret traverses faster, and it drives faster than any of the other tanks.
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I will take a T-34 to an enemy field just to pork it. It runs about 35mph and has pretty nice armor (until you die that is)
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I like taking M-8s up against Panzers. 1 shot to disable it if you know where to hit. Takes about 5 to 6 shots directly to the rear to kill it though.
M-8 can't hurt a T-34 though.
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T34 needs to be refitted with the 85mm cannon and increased armour.
That would make more sense to me. Right now it just makes a nice target.
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Originally posted by uberhun
T34 needs to be refitted with the 85mm cannon and increased armour.
That would make more sense to me. Right now it just makes a nice target.
2nd, 3rd, 4th these sentiments.
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I really like the T-34. Its gun can kill a panzer pretty easily with a good hit, you just have to hit it with the first shot because the reload time is so long. And most of the time, a hit to the front from a panzer doesn't even hurt it. A Tiger is a different matter altogether, you get hit by that and you're dead, it doesn't matter much what you're in. Unfortunatly, the gun on the T-34 can't kill a Tiger, trust me, I've tried doing it offline and it doesn't work. You're better off just running away when you see a Tiger.
Also, the T-34 is a good bit faster than the panzer, and you get 50% more perks for taking a tank out. And they get less for killing you. The lack of a pintle machine gun doesn't make much difference, it isn't much good for killing planes anyway, all it's good for is to make you feel like you're a little more dangerous than just a target down below.
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Originally posted by Tails
Yup. Gunner and TC, no loader.
I think you're wrong. On the left there was TC/gunner, on the right loader.
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/ussr/tanks_medium/t34.html
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I exaclty predicted what would happen with the T34 76, either they model its constraints inaccuratly or it would not be used.
Imagine if they really modled how vulnerable it is with the drivers hatch open!
The whole front upper hull is pretty much comprimised. And last time I played it was way to heavily armoured.
I have no idea why they did the 76. 85 would have fit the game so much better with the same amount of work.
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Now, I dont use the 34 very much, but I find myself fighting it a lot. If you can find a nice hiding place its perfect. I cant count how many times ive had one in my panzer sights, hit it a couple times, but it survived long enough to reverse into the trees where I couldnt get it. They are real good if you are a good shot, and patient.
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Originally posted by Sombra
I think you're wrong. On the left there was TC/gunner, on the right loader.
http://www.wwiivehicles.com/ussr/tanks_medium/t34.html
Well, one way or another, someone was pulling double duty in a very cramped turret. Hence the slow reload.
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Originally posted by Tails
Well, one way or another, someone was pulling double duty in a very cramped turret. Hence the slow reload.
Not really, the only real slow down in the T34 with a set up like this is the lack of SA while the tank was firing. All you loose my not having a dedicated TC is the pair of eyes.
So HT must have found a source either for the maximum sustained ROF for the cannon or decided that it's too cramped to load any faster.
Also didn't the T34 have split ammo?
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There I was ... salivating ... in the confusion of the battle, the enemi tiger had parked 20y away, exposing his rear straight to my muzle. I shot once dead six right in the back ... I shot twice ... agonizing reload time. A third shot from 20y still fails to penetrate the Tiger rear bulk. The massive turret painfully starts to rotate toward my T34. As a glance of fear lights up my eyes, the loader calls "ready". One more round to save the day, my best chance is to disable the turret. I wait for the menacing enemy turret to be exactly at 90 degree, and I fire right on target.
... the tiger's turret keeps turning toward me, undisturbed. I unlock the escape hatch and jump in the grass, as the concussion from a violent explosion knocks me unconcious.:lol
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I did some offline testing in the T-34/76 and the results are interesting:
Test 1:
T-34/76 VS Tiger I
Range: 20m
Ammo: AP
Orientation: perpendicular ie 90 degree
Results:
Hits to the turret in hopes of causing loss of turret main gun are useless. The projectile simply bounces off causing no damage.
Hits to the tracks and running gear are also useless, even tho a large hit sprite is generated indicating damage. Attempts to detrack a Tiger should be avoided as a waste of ammunition.
Hits to the hull side have some effect. Even at 20m it will take 6 rounds to destroy a Tiger I. Sweet spot is the Schwarzcruz.
Opinion:
The T-34/76 is of no practical value in the MA. It's speed and sloping armor is no compensation for its pathetic rate of fire, and lack of penetrating power for it's main armament. A tank destroyer it is not, that role would best be served by the German Jagd series, or the Russian SU series of tanks.
It would best be used as a building batterer for quick GV missions, but even here the slow rate of fire hampers it.
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People have proven (and complained) many times that the T-34 can't do any damage whatsoever to a Tiger.
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Originally posted by OOZ662
People have proven (and complained) many times that the T-34 can't do any damage whatsoever to a Tiger.
See, that's what I'm on about.
Seriously the T-34/76 is a useless hunk of bytes, a virtual hangar queen. Might as well use the M-8 has the same efectiveness and shoots quicker too.:p
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** Test 1:
T-34/76 VS Tiger I
Range: 20m
Ammo: AP
Orientation: perpendicular ie 90 degree **
In reality the Tiger would be dead even from a serman, if so near.
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I use T-34's:cool: I just bum rush the spawn point and pretty much shoot pnzr's at point blank they are great if you hit a pnzr and get a hit sprite cuz by then they are dead.:noid
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Originally posted by Yeager
Why did HTC model the T34 if the reload times built into the cannon are so poor that no one hardly uses it?
Why would the reload times be so different between the T34 76mm and the PNZR 75mm?
Is there some sort of historical data on the reload time of the T34 76mm being so poor that HTC would actually pork the gameplay usage of the T34 to accomodate the historical data?
WTF is going on here?
Originally posted by zorstorer
Not really, the only real slow down in the T34 with a set up like this is the lack of SA while the tank was firing. All you loose my not having a dedicated TC is the pair of eyes.
So HT must have found a source either for the maximum sustained ROF for the cannon or decided that it's too cramped to load any faster.
I tried to do some digging to get at some internet-based source documents, and came up relatively empty due to my lack of patience and tendency to spend too much time on tangents . . .
What I was able to find spoken of generally is an 8 to 10 second reload time for the 76mm gun, while using the ammo stored in the turret. Firing times actually got worse after that because of the ammo storage layout in the T-34. After the 9 "ready rounds" were expended, additional shells were stored under floor mats at the bottom of the tank. It also just so happens that this is where the spent shell casings fall. Thus, the loader was hard pressed to keep the ammo flowing.
A few "anecdotal" references to German crews firing 2, 3, or even 4 times for every returned round were also peppered through my search. But this could easily be due to poor SA by the Russian crews (to zorstorer's point) rather than the gun itself.
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Originally posted by E25280
What I was able to find spoken of generally is an 8 to 10 second reload time for the 76mm gun, while using the ammo stored in the turret. Firing times actually got worse after that because of the ammo storage layout in the T-34. After the 9 "ready rounds" were expended, additional shells were stored under floor mats at the bottom of the tank. It also just so happens that this is where the spent shell casings fall. Thus, the loader was hard pressed to keep the ammo flowing.
Someone who "said" they were in a T34 at a museum "said" that the under-floor ammo storage systems didn't exist.
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Originally posted by OOZ662
Someone who "said" they were in a T34 at a museum "said" that the under-floor ammo storage systems didn't exist.
Out of curiosity, do you know if it was the T-34/76 or the T-34/85? The 85 had a much larger turret, and may have had a different ammo storage layout.
Or the intardnet sources could be completely wrong (yeah, like that would be the first time ever, wouldn't it:rolleyes: )
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Some info on the T-34 can be found here, http://www.gjames.com.au/chris/index.html
In a fighting tank 75 magazines** are stowed :
1. In the turret -26 magazines.
2. On the floor on the right hand side of the fighting compartment -8 magazines.
3. In the driving compartment -41 magazines
In a fighting tank modified for wireless set, 62 magazines are stowed :
1. In the turret 26 magazines.
2. On the floor on the right hand side of the fighting compartment -8 magazines.
3. In the driving compartment 28 magazines.
In a tank with wireless set (Commander's tank), 46 magazines are stowed :
1. In the turret -26 magazines.
2. On the floor on the right hand side of the fighting compartment-8 magazines.
3. In the driving compartment 12 magazines.
**magazines = rounds (bad translation)
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Some info on the T-34 can be found here, http://www.gjames.com.au/chris/index.html
In a fighting tank 75 magazines** are stowed :
1. In the turret -26 magazines.
2. On the floor on the right hand side of the fighting compartment -8 magazines.
3. In the driving compartment -41 magazines
In a fighting tank modified for wireless set, 62 magazines are stowed :
1. In the turret 26 magazines.
2. On the floor on the right hand side of the fighting compartment -8 magazines.
3. In the driving compartment 28 magazines.
In a tank with wireless set (Commander's tank), 46 magazines are stowed :
1. In the turret -26 magazines.
2. On the floor on the right hand side of the fighting compartment-8 magazines.
3. In the driving compartment 12 magazines.
**magazines = rounds (bad translation)
You inadvertantly picked the location of the machine gun magazines. The positioning of the rounds for the main gun is unfortunately much more ambiguous.
The ammunition is partly stowed in the fighting compartment and in the bulkhead partitions and partly in special boxes. There are six boxes of 9 rounds and two boxes of 7 rounds. In a11 there are 68 rounds.
Stowage of Ammunition in the Bulkhead partitions of the Fighting Compartment
In the right partition, 3 rounds and in the left, 6 rounds.
Then it says "Stowage of MG Magazines" and continues with the information you quoted.
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All I can say is :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
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I know it is a PITA (pain in the arse) to reload the M2 Bradley, had to open up the deck of in the troop area the slew the turret to the correct position and have someone OUTSIDE the turret attach the rounds to those still in the magazine.
I am gonna go hunting for some sources. :D
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On July 7th of 1943, single Tiger tank commanded by SS-Oberscharfuehrer Franz Staudegger from 2nd Platoon of 13th Panzer Company of 1st SS Panzer Grenadier Division "LSSAH" engaged Soviet group of some 50 T-34 tanks around Psyolknee (southern sector of the Kursk salient). Staudegger used up his entire ammunition after destroying some 22 Soviet tanks, while the rest retreated. For his achievement, Franz Staudegger was awarded the Knight's Cross.
On August 8th of 1944, single Tiger commanded by SS-Unterscharfuehrer Willi Fey from the 1st Company of sSSPzAbt 102, engaged a British tank column destroying some 14 out of 15 Shermans, followed by one more later in the day using his last two rounds of ammunition. sSSPzAbt 102 lost all of its Tigers during fighting in Normandy but reported 227 Allied tanks destroyed during the period of 6 weeks.
The Tiger is particularly associated with the name of SS-Haupsturmführer Michael Wittmann of schwere SS-Panzerabteilung 101, who was one of the most successful tank commanders of World War II. He worked his way up, commanding various vehicles, finally a Tiger I. In one day he destroyed over two dozen allied vehicles including several tanks, and single-handedly held up an entire advance until his tank was knocked out and abandoned at the Battle of Villers-Bocage.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I
(Saw a thing on History channel---Tiger took some 250+ hits during an encounter with T34's--still managed to drive some 40 miles before it croaked)
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Originally posted by zorstorer
I know it is a PITA (pain in the arse) to reload the M2 Bradley, had to open up the deck of in the troop area the slew the turret to the correct position and have someone OUTSIDE the turret attach the rounds to those still in the magazine.
I am gonna go hunting for some sources. :D
Thats how the tow launcher is loaded/re-loaded.......big 2 round box. Us 45t's used to make the track personell crank the launcher up manually for "mantenance purposes"....takes about 50 years with a little hand crank......lol.
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Originally posted by Iron_Cross
I did some offline testing in the T-34/76 and the results are interesting:
Test 1:
T-34/76 VS Tiger I
Range: 20m
Ammo: AP
Orientation: perpendicular ie 90 degree
Results:
Hits to the turret in hopes of causing loss of turret main gun are useless. The projectile simply bounces off causing no damage.
Hits to the tracks and running gear are also useless, even tho a large hit sprite is generated indicating damage. Attempts to detrack a Tiger should be avoided as a waste of ammunition.
Hits to the hull side have some effect. Even at 20m it will take 6 rounds to destroy a Tiger I. Sweet spot is the Schwarzcruz.
Opinion:
The T-34/76 is of no practical value in the MA. It's speed and sloping armor is no compensation for its pathetic rate of fire, and lack of penetrating power for it's main armament. A tank destroyer it is not, that role would best be served by the German Jagd series, or the Russian SU series of tanks.
It would best be used as a building batterer for quick GV missions, but even here the slow rate of fire hampers it.
I'm not sure that the T-34 and Tiger have not been changed since I tested it when the T-34 was introduced, but my test gave somewhat different results.
With a T-34 at point-blank range (<100 yards) I could disable the turret on a Tiger with exactly 3 hits to the same 'face' of the turret (i.e. front left, rear left, rear, rear right, front right- the front was impervious). After the 3rd hit, the turret would be disabled, and a seemingly random number of hits to the same face would be needed to destroy the tank. The facing required was ~90 degrees - even a variation of 5 degrees or so would bounce every single round.
I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis of the T-34s value in the MA. So does the rest of the population it appears, with the T-34 garnering on average much less than one half of 1% of the total GV kills (even tank on tank I'd say the T-34 has a great tour if it gets 1/10 of 1%).
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Many of us said at the time that the T-34/85 would have been a much better fitting tank for the MA.
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Okay, I have found a use for it! Whe taking Vbases, have two or three as an assault unit! They form a spearhead formation, and an M3 slips between. Their fronatl armor portect the m3 into the base, whil the bigger tanks like panzers supress the enemy tanks. THe t34s take out the ack, and escort the M3 right up to the maproom. When one T34 gets killed, one of the remaining two may take his place depending on whether or not that side is more likely to be dangerous than the ramaining two. It works i tell you!
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Best use of the T34 is bait.
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Originally posted by KTM520guy
Best use of the T34 is bait.
Or a sheild?
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Id rather have an m4/Sherman if the darn thing had a better rate of fire than the T-34.
I like the mobility, and it really is amazing how usualy a t34 can take one solid hit before exploding, but that gun fires so freakin slow!!
best tactic in a T-34 is the same as the m-8 in my eyes, run at full tilt, see the enemy 1st, work around for a rear quarter shot, and if that big ole turret starts easing around, run for the nearest obstacle to put bettween me and that Horkin 88mm...
Reminds me, one time im moving along at a good click running through trees to avoid the miriad of nme planes, when lo and behold I pass a tiger going the other way... I freaked and jumped into the turret and spun it around to get a shot in his rear, and fired......waited.....fired again....waited....fired again....long story short 5 rounds in his arse and nothing, the guy literaly had time to stop, turn his turret around, pour a cup of coffee, and blast me into the map room... the russians had alot of guts facing those things, and ive almost given up firing at em from a T34, better to find less dangerouse oponents.
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Well, I think our T-34 is a little undermodeled vis a vis the real thing.
The T-34 did have "ready ammunition" in the turret, it was only after this was fired that the ammo in the bins in the floor had to be accessed. Ours? We get a loader that is stuck moving underwater.
As far as penetration goes, even the vanilla 76mm had enough power to get through the sides and rear of a Tiger at point blank range. A tungsten round was introduced in early 1943 that could get through the front at close range, and of course the T-34-85 was introduced in 1944.
The T-34 does have its uses though, it is great for getting to a fight about 25% quicker than a Panzer IV, so you can be oneshotted and respawn and get there "fast" again! Unless you have to go up a grade steeper than 1 degree - in which case you are better off in a Panzer or Tiger. For some reason the only vehicles in the game that can traverse slopes are the Panzer IV and Tiger.
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Okay, I got another use for it! When someone hides a tank in the indestructable, and there is no one around to help, and you need to kill him, up in the hangar with a t34. Start your engine and as it starts, start turning your turret. If he shoots, he will probably get your engine, in which case you turn the turret the final 45 degrees, and shoot the only shot you will get into his turret. If he doesnt get your engines, drive out, and think of a better plan. No this doesnt work in a Panzer, because the turret is slower, and it is slower to accelerate to get away.
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to take on a tiger in a t34, take out the tracks, then go to the side w/ tracks (the tiger turret cant hit u there then) then start unloading on the side, it'll blow up sooner or later, just make sure udont hit the other track, or else u'll be in a world of pain
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Originally posted by Nemeth
to take on a tiger in a t34, take out the tracks, then go to the side w/ tracks (the tiger turret cant hit u there then) then start unloading on the side, it'll blow up sooner or later, just make sure udont hit the other track, or else u'll be in a world of pain
Huh. Never thought of that... great idea!
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Hi,
imho the T-34 is good in general like it is, but the Tiger seems to be a "bit" to tough now!!!
I can park right behind a Tiger and it wont die by the 7,6mm, i doubt that is ok!!
Its also extreme difficult to destroy the tracks of the Tiger.
Before one of the updates i could kill the tracks with the 8.8 HE from long range, just by aiming next to the tiger, now this seems to be impossible. Even the M8 could do this from close range.
What i miss most in the T-34 is the possibility to move the view smooth around when sitting in the turrent. In ALL other GV´s we have a MG there, so we can move the view around to scan the area with zoom, not so in the T-34. I always feel like a "Stiffneck" in it. :(
(maybe a good point for the "wish" forum. :) )
Greetings,
Knegel
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yeah! just stick a pilot upthere with a 45 in his hands,, decent anti air then...lol:aok
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yeah! just stick a pilot upthere with a 45 in his hands,, decent anti air then...lol:aok
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yeah! just stick a pilot upthere with a 45 in his hands,, decent anti air then...lol:aok
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yeah! just stick a pilot upthere with a 45 in his hands,, decent anti air then...lol:aok
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yeah! just stick a pilot upthere with a 45 in his hands,, decent anti air then...lol:aok
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yeah! just stick a pilot upthere with a 45 in his hands,, decent anti air then...lol:aok
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Originally posted by stephen
yeah! just stick a pilot upthere with a 45 in his hands,, decent anti air then...lol:aok
Originally posted by stephen
yeah! just stick a pilot upthere with a 45 in his hands,, decent anti air then...lol:aok
Originally posted by stephen
yeah! just stick a pilot upthere with a 45 in his hands,, decent anti air then...lol:aok
Originally posted by stephen
yeah! just stick a pilot upthere with a 45 in his hands,, decent anti air then...lol:aok
Originally posted by stephen
yeah! just stick a pilot upthere with a 45 in his hands,, decent anti air then...lol:aok
Originally posted by stephen
yeah! just stick a pilot upthere with a 45 in his hands,, decent anti air then...lol:aok
:O :rolleyes:
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Have no idea how that happend, thought you where making fun of me until i went to the last page, sheesh really i have no idea how that happend.
Sorry..:confused:
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lol. No problem. Got a new quote for your sig. though: 'Single posts are for morons' lol
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well since the change t34 has becme a menace. I have seen them take tons of hits and keep goin(no not in the front either). I hope ur happy now:lol
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lol. I sort of am. Im tired of all these panzers.