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General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Yeager on August 29, 2006, 10:48:56 PM

Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Yeager on August 29, 2006, 10:48:56 PM: Why does the Ki84 get such low use in the MA? I notice that it starts to compress early. I have no clue as to the accuracy of this but it seems off that one of the best performing Japanese fighters historically gets such minimal use in the MA. Perhasp this is indicative of a modeling error on the part of HTC.

How many people who frequent these boards (and still play the game of course)
actually have flown the Ki-84 as a regular ride?
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Airscrew on August 29, 2006, 11:05:21 PM: I usually fly the Ki-84 a few times out of the month, I just happen to pull the rudder or one of the elevators off almost every time I fly it. To me it seems to compress very easily. I dont remember the exact speed but somewhere in the neighborhood of 350-360 the controls get real stiff and if your nose is pointed down its a real struggle for me anyway. I like flying it when I do but I havent read alot about the Ki-84 and I havent spent a lot of time trying to learn it either.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Krusty on August 29, 2006, 11:22:54 PM: Ki84 is frikkin' uber. It sees plenty of use. It doesn't see the use the spit16 has or the lgay7 has because it is neither fast nor easy to fly. Well it's "easy to fly" but not "press button to go" or "idiot proof" like a few other planes. As a result nobody wants to put in the prerequisite 5 minutes to learn it.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Urchin on August 29, 2006, 11:25:14 PM: The Ki-84 doesn't have hispanos, so it will not be the plane of choice for the melee crowd. If it had firepower equal to a Spit, I imagine it would be the most popular TnB type plane.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Spatula on August 29, 2006, 11:36:42 PM: I see it round quite a bit, and it can be a tough cookie to counter in a non TnB plane. It has a climb rate very similar to the spit 16 and 109k4, so it should be an excellent energy fighter if used correctly, plus has excellent turn ability too.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Lusche on August 29, 2006, 11:38:49 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
Why does the Ki84 get such low use in the MA? I notice that it starts to compress early. I have no clue as to the accuracy of this but it seems off that one of the best performing Japanese fighters historically gets such minimal use in the MA. Perhasp this is indicative of a modeling error on the part of HTC.

How many people who frequent these boards (and still play the game of course)
actually have flown the Ki-84 as a regular ride?

My two cent:

The Ki-84 is one of the more dangerous planes in MA. It has problems above 450mph, but at low-medium speeds it is extremly capable, a very good turner, nimble, good climrate and very powerful & fast acceleration.

The comparatively little usage of the Ki-84 is not based on crappy performance, for each tour the Frank has one of the best K/D ratios of the whole planeset. Last tour the Ki-84 had a K/D of 1.54 which resulted in 2nd place of all non-perked rides, only 109K4 had a better K/D ratio (1.68).

The Ki-84 was my main ride for about 2 or 3 tours. Like most planes, you should know its limitations. Controls get stiffer above about 400mph, and you better not go over 450. Use acceleration & climbrate. Spit XVI aside, you have either better turning performance or more power than most planes you encounter.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Saxman on August 30, 2006, 01:27:35 AM: I'm glad that Ki-84s are still comparatively rare. She's definately a plane that could deserve a perk price if she started seeing heavier use in the MA.

Although personally, I haven't seen any of that control stiffness in high-speed dives trying to escape from one. Been into dives that make a CORSAIR groan (550-600mph) with blackout-inducing pullouts that scrape the trees, and I've STILL got that dammed Ki following me and not showing any sign of trouble.
Title: Re: Re: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: badhorse on August 30, 2006, 06:58:56 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Lusche
My two cent:

It has problems above 450mph,

I took one up in the TA and put it in a dive because it seemed like when ever I lowered the nose the darn thing would start creaking and groaning. The ailerons came off at about 420.

If you don't need speed, it is a very good airplane.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Krusty on August 30, 2006, 08:37:16 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
The Ki-84 doesn't have hispanos, so it will not be the plane of choice for the melee crowd. If it had firepower equal to a Spit, I imagine it would be the most popular TnB type plane.

I'd disagree. It's got the late-war 20mm that are almost as good as the Hispanos. It's also got a lot more rounds than a spitfire has, and a lot more 50cal than most planes have. The guns are evenly loaded so that they run out at about the same time, which is nice. I've got 7 kill sorties in ki84s before, WITHOUT reloading.

As for the climb: Once they were the king of climb, but the spit16 leaves them eating dust, for straight rate-of-climb.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: SAS_KID on August 30, 2006, 09:47:59 AM: Krusty the WEP climb is a lot better for i am sure the KI84 holds its E longer than a Spit16 in a zoom climb.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Krusty on August 30, 2006, 09:50:45 AM: The spit16 does 3500fpm WITHOUT WEP at 10k. It does 5000+ on the deck. Even with WEP the Ki only brushes 4200fpm max under 5k. Forget about higher altitudes. Spit16 blows it away. Spit16 also has the UFO flight model. In tight spiral climbs maybe the Ki flaps give it an edge, but the spixteen can also hang on its nose forever without stalling.

As for pure zoom, the spit seems to bleed less E, has a faster top speed, also has a much more powerful engine, so I think it zooms better. I've not tested it, though.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Guppy35 on August 30, 2006, 10:55:13 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
Why does the Ki84 get such low use in the MA? I notice that it starts to compress early. I have no clue as to the accuracy of this but it seems off that one of the best performing Japanese fighters historically gets such minimal use in the MA. Perhasp this is indicative of a modeling error on the part of HTC.

How many people who frequent these boards (and still play the game of course)
actually have flown the Ki-84 as a regular ride?

Check it against anything but the uber rides or the big cannon birds.

The 84 has more kills then all the Spits besides the 16. It has more kills then the 109s including the K which surprised me. It has more kills than any 38 version or Jug version, including the N. It has more kills then the Corsairs. It has more kills then all the 190s outside of the D9. It has more then the Yaks and the Zeros. It has more kills then the La5

So it's used a lot by folks besides those who want big cannons. Tiffies, N1Ks and Hurri IIcs are way up there in kills, or those who want to go fast with cannons like the the usual LA7, Spit XVI drivers, as well as the 51Ds and the 6 50s

Essentially it's 8th behind the LA7, Spit XVI, P51D, N1K, Tiffie and Hurri IIc and 190D9.

There are a lot of birds below the Ki-84 in usage including many that surprised me to be honest.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Domin on December 16, 2006, 03:01:29 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
The spit16 does 3500fpm WITHOUT WEP at 10k. It does 5000+ on the deck. Even with WEP the Ki only brushes 4200fpm max under 5k. Forget about higher altitudes. Spit16 blows it away. Spit16 also has the UFO flight model. In tight spiral climbs maybe the Ki flaps give it an edge, but the spixteen can also hang on its nose forever without stalling.

As for pure zoom, the spit seems to bleed less E, has a faster top speed, also has a much more powerful engine, so I think it zooms better. I've not tested it, though.

True. The KI84 is a good bird. It does not climb with K4 or spit16. They set around 4.7-4.8k fpm and the ki84 sets around 4k fpm. One of the KI84s problems is between 5-10k it loses over 1k fpm bring it to 3k fpm. At that point even a Spit5 can match and even out climb it.

About this plane possibly being perked.......WHAAAAAAA? The spit16 out climbs, out dives, out rolls, out accelerates, and its faster then the KI84. Their turn is nearly identical.

My favorite match up is the Spit9 vs KI84.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: 1K3 on December 16, 2006, 03:51:08 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Domin

My favorite match up is the Spit9 vs KI84.

nah, spit 8 vs Ki-84 is a better match imo. I'm more comfortable taking the spit 8 in lo speed fighting vs the Ki-84. Try fighting the 84 in spit 8 and you'll notice they're almost identical in performance.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: SuperDud on December 16, 2006, 05:37:39 PM: KI84 is my main ride, great plane. As for good fights, P38vsKI84.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: EagleDNY on December 17, 2006, 04:17:04 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
I'd disagree. It's got the late-war 20mm that are almost as good as the Hispanos. It's also got a lot more rounds than a spitfire has, and a lot more 50cal than most planes have. The guns are evenly loaded so that they run out at about the same time, which is nice. I've got 7 kill sorties in ki84s before, WITHOUT reloading.

As for the climb: Once they were the king of climb, but the spit16 leaves them eating dust, for straight rate-of-climb.

I'm with you here Krusty - the 20mms on the Ki-84 are plenty lethal, and their ROF seems higher than those in the Niki. There isn't anything you can't take on in a Ki-84 and not have a reasonable chance of success.

As for climb, you can get a lot more out of her off autoclimb. I chased a Spixteen all the way up to 20K in a Ki-84, and he wasn't climbing away, despite what the charts say.

EagleDNY
$.02
Title: Re: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Slash27 on December 17, 2006, 06:02:28 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
Why does the Ki84 get such low use in the MA?

I never understood this. My theory is that it wasnt the plane people thought it was going to be when released. I heard so much bs about the Ki-84 prior and when it came out there was much whining when it wasnt "all that". I also see some exagerated negative claims about it in this thread I really dont agree with. Why noobs dont take to it Im not sure. It took me a little bit of time to learn it so maybe no patience is a factor. Just a hypothosis though.:D

I fly it quite a bit and love the plane.( Krustys skin is pimp too:aok ) Great performance and gun package. You can hold you own against anything in game with it. Well I can, I know some can do that in a C-47 but you get what I mean. The Spit 16 gave me headaches for awhile but now I got past that.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: tedrbr on December 17, 2006, 06:30:14 PM: Why it does not get used:

* The Ki-84 does not have the cannons and ammo load that the Niki carries.

* It's not particularly fast (although has good accelleration), though Ki-84 pilots find it fast enough for the most part.

* Not a tough plane that can soak up hits, unlike the F6F or Jug.

* It's not the best turner in the game - but can outrun, outclimb, or out accellerate those that it can't out turn.

* It can hang on the prop and a great vertical fighter, but don't get too attached to vertical fight or someone with a lot of E will get you.

But, the Kia 84-Ia is my favorite defensive plane and furballer. I like fighting down on the deck with it (which goes against conventional thinking in holding high E). I'm not a great fitr pilots by any means, but I have my best luck with the Frank compared to rest of plane set.

1 on 1 matches should often go to the Ki-84. Usually it's the second or third enemy plane that gets me. I've even managed to hold off three of four B&Z planes in a furball and get a few hits in.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Benny Moore on December 17, 2006, 11:51:36 PM: Quote
Originally posted by SuperDud
KI84 is my main ride, great plane. As for good fights, P38vsKI84.

You obviously like easy kills, then. The Ki-84 out-turns, outrolls, outruns, and outclimbs the P-38 in this simulator. The P-38's only advantage is dive.

The Ki-84 is by no means undermodelled! On the contrary, it's usually overmodelled in simulators. The performance which people are led to believe it had was only obtained in American trials. The captured aircraft had high grade American fuel and better maintainance, and was stripped of paint and waxed. It was also flown at far less than combat weight. It never got any such speed in Japanese service. The Ki-84 got in the field about twenty miles per hour less than it did in American trials.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Bronk on December 18, 2006, 12:07:56 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Benny Moore
SNIP

I dub the sir AmiKurrfy . :D
Please carry on .

Bronk

Edit: Ohhh and a little piece of info for ya. In AH the KI is modeled with crappy fuel. Once again carry on.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Benny Moore on December 18, 2006, 01:01:43 AM: Kraut. And if it is, it's overmodelled. The Ki-84 was not faster than the Big Three at any altitude.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Kweassa on December 18, 2006, 06:53:50 AM: Quote
You obviously like easy kills, then. The Ki-84 out-turns, outrolls, outruns, and outclimbs the P-38 in this simulator. The P-38's only advantage is dive.

Sorry, not true.

Quote
Kraut. And if it is, it's overmodelled. The Ki-84 was not faster than the Big Three at any altitude.

...and nor is it any faster in AH. It s modelled according to Japanese grade of fuel, and its maximum speed is limited to 398mph at its best, with a limited 1 minute burst of WEP.

Do you even play this game?
Title: Re: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Simaril on December 18, 2006, 07:09:41 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
Why does the Ki84 get such low use in the MA? I notice that it starts to compress early. I have no clue as to the accuracy of this but it seems off that one of the best performing Japanese fighters historically gets such minimal use in the MA. Perhasp this is indicative of a modeling error on the part of HTC.

How many people who frequent these boards (and still play the game of course)
actually have flown the Ki-84 as a regular ride?

Wondering....to really make the Ki84 shine, you pretty much have to manually trim...the auto trim castrates the planes' greatest strengths.

For the average "click and go" autotrim pilot, the 84 would seem pretty average, I'd think.
Title: Re: Re: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: EagleDNY on December 18, 2006, 08:01:06 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
Wondering....to really make the Ki84 shine, you pretty much have to manually trim...the auto trim castrates the planes' greatest strengths.

For the average "click and go" autotrim pilot, the 84 would seem pretty average, I'd think.

Agree here totally - on autotrim, the Ki-84 will get beaten a lot by the Nikis, Spixteens, & La-Las, which is probably why it isn't flown by a lot of newbies.
When you take the autotrim off her, she can be a bit of a handful at low speed if you don't work those flaps just right. Once you get her quirks down (and start to use them to your advantage), the Ki-84 really shines.

EagleDNY
$.02
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Slash27 on December 18, 2006, 09:06:16 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Benny Moore
You obviously like easy kills, then. The Ki-84 out-turns, outrolls, outruns, and outclimbs the P-38 in this simulator. The P-38's only advantage is dive.

Not so much.
Title: Re: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Viking on December 18, 2006, 09:22:49 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
Why does the Ki84 get such low use in the MA? I notice that it starts to compress early. I have no clue as to the accuracy of this but it seems off that one of the best performing Japanese fighters historically gets such minimal use in the MA. Perhasp this is indicative of a modeling error on the part of HTC.

No it is indicative of the idiocy of sending your designers and engineers to fight at the front. The best performing Japanese late war planes were not a match for even the worst anybody else was flying.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Kweassa on December 18, 2006, 11:12:47 AM: Quote
No it is indicative of the idiocy of sending your designers and engineers to fight at the front. The best performing Japanese late war planes were not a match for even the worst anybody else was flying.

There's a roomed to be spared for sympathy here, Viking. Japan was losing a war, and the largest war ever in the history of mankind. Fears of invasion was spreading through the populace.

I'm not sure if the Americans (for instance), ever truly had a fear of war raging in their own homelands - but assuming such a thing might happen, in times of dire peril are you so certain that America would not call out a state of "every able-bodied man to arms"?

In a certain sense, what you said about the planes are true. Many issues kept the Japanese planes from performing as intended, ranging from outdated design concepts to manufacturing troubles. However the Japanese did come up with some brilliant, potentially successful fighter designs and the Ki-84 certain was one of them. I think it may be due course to try to differentiate the problems of reality, and the problems of initial design flaws. You can't just all crunch it into one.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Viking on December 18, 2006, 11:27:10 AM: Sympathy? ... Sure, but it was still idiocy. The Japanese send their best minds to be killed at the front long before the war was hopelessly lost. Even when the Russians stood at the gates of Berlin the Germans didn't send their scientists and engineers to fight (though some of them did so voluntarily).
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Benny Moore on December 18, 2006, 12:10:24 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
...and nor is it any faster in AH. It s modelled according to Japanese grade of fuel, and its maximum speed is limited to 398mph at its best, with a limited 1 minute burst of WEP.

Do you even play this game?

Do you? The Ki-84 is several miles per hour faster at low altitudes (and accelerates far better). Go look at some of the comparison charts or, better yet, do a quick test like I did.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Viking on December 18, 2006, 12:23:20 PM: Benny, please stop being such a twit.

(http://www.flyaceshigh.com/ahhelp/models/charts/ki84spd.gif)
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Krusty on December 18, 2006, 12:48:37 PM: P.S. The AH Ki84 maxes out at about 384, NOT 398.

It's relatively fast on the deck, but it doesn't gain as much by going up in alt as most other planes do.

Benny, I also ask: "Do you even FLY this game??"

Viking: Sure, the Japanese might have done that, but they had no choice. The Soviets HAD a choice, and they executed, imprisoned, or sent to concentration camps (death sentence) all of *THEIR* designers. It's not a fair comparison. One killed theirs on the front, the other killed theirs at home out of paranoia. (Stalin was insane)
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: tedrbr on December 18, 2006, 01:06:41 PM: Dok's site has some fairly good comparison charts. Not sure how accurate from the last version change or two, but a good resource to get an rough idea on plane comparisons. Pilot skills need to be considered as well.

http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/ (http://www.gonzoville.com/charts/)

Ki-84 compares close to the Niki, Spit 8 and Spit-16. Spits can outclimb in on WEP. Spits can also get their flaps out in turns long before a Ki-84 can, IIRC. Splitxeen has better gun package.... Niki doubly so if you luv cannons.

Ki-84 has much better range than the Spits do, so if the fight is further away, that can help.

And there is something to be said about flying a plane that everybloodybody else doesn't.

:D
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Viking on December 18, 2006, 01:22:57 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Sure, the Japanese might have done that, but they had no choice.

That’s not true, they had the same choice the Germans had.

The bombing of Japan’s industry started on June 15, 1944, after production had started on the Ki-84. Still due to lack of skilled labour the production quality was horrible.

At the same time the Germans, having retained their scientists and skilled workers, had been bombed almost continuously day and night for two years. And they were making this:

(http://www.btinternet.com/~lee_mail/ME262-1.jpg)

And they made it out in the woods, practically from garbage.

If the Japanese had made the same choice as Germany, they could have had jet fighters at the same time perhaps ever earlier. The Japanese pilots could have flown planes that equalled their adversaries in ’43, and Japanese jet fighters appearing just as the American bombing campaign starts? It would have had a huge impact on the war.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Kweassa on December 18, 2006, 02:01:40 PM: Quote
Sympathy? ... Sure, but it was still idiocy. The Japanese send their best minds to be killed at the front long before the war was hopelessly lost. Even when the Russians stood at the gates of Berlin the Germans didn't send their scientists and engineers to fight (though some of them did so voluntarily).

Again, I must emphasize the difference of culture. Living longer than three thousands of years with people of same ethnicity at the same areas of the world is bound to have some effect on the mindset of many people - notably of the tree North-Eastern Asian countries of China, Korea, and Japan. Ofcourse, things have changed during the past few decades and the speed of globalization has 'softened up' the edges quite a bit, but still there are certain types of thinking that just doesn't go away.

Ofcourse a certain civilian section will probably be maintained to ensure the war machine keeps on going, but what if the tide of the battle has been turned decisively, and such efforts will not be able to stop imminent defeat? Naturally, everyone, every human resource will be put into the defense of the homeland, in whatever way they can. It's how people are brought up around these parts - it's just different.

It may seem hard to understand, most probably awkward, perhaps even 'idiotic' as you might say, but not our eyes who live here in Eastern end of the Asian continent. Ofcourse things have changed a lot since last 60 years, and if modern day warfare ever breaks out things would be a lot different. However, in regards to the Japanese of 1945, I don't find it too difficult to understand what they felt and how they felt it.

Quote
P.S. The AH Ki84 maxes out at about 384, NOT 398.

You're right. WW's test results are;

Speed on deck, no WEP: 327 mph
Speed on deck with WEP: 348 mph
Speed at 22,500 ft without WEP: 382 mph
Speed at 22,500 ft with WEP: 388 mph

Must have confused 398 with 388.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Viking on December 18, 2006, 02:08:43 PM: Kweassa, they still had a choice. You're just explaining why they made the wrong one. Or in less polite terms ... were idiots.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: evenhaim on December 18, 2006, 03:12:33 PM: dude u must crazy yest alone in one sortie i saw at least 15 ki84s and on antoher sprtie we were defending a base from a raid half of which were ki84s, i havnt gone a day without seeing quite a few
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Karnak on December 18, 2006, 08:18:10 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Kweassa, they still had a choice. You're just explaining why they made the wrong one. Or in less polite terms ... were idiots.

They didn't send their engineers to the front lines. Jiro Horikoshi, and others like him, stayed and designed aircraft.

What they did do was send their skilled machinists and metal workers to the front line.

Why? Because their warrior tradition emphasized the value of the warrior to an extreme.

And yes, it was a dumb thing to do.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Whisky58 on December 19, 2006, 06:04:39 AM: Quote
Originally posted by EagleDNY
Agree here totally - on autotrim, the Ki-84 will get beaten a lot by the Nikis, Spixteens, & La-Las, which is probably why it isn't flown by a lot of newbies.
When you take the autotrim off her, she can be a bit of a handful at low speed if you don't work those flaps just right. Once you get her quirks down (and start to use them to your advantage), the Ki-84 really shines.

EagleDNY
$.02

Goes without saying that working the trim & working the flaps are different. Eagle, do you have to make a lot of trim adjusments in the Ki84 when low and slow? I struggle just changing flap settings. In a dogfight taking my eye off the ball to fiddle around with trim on the keyboard usually results in death pretty dam quick.

Regards.:)
Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: EagleDNY on December 19, 2006, 06:29:47 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Whisky58
Goes without saying that working the trim & working the flaps are different. Eagle, do you have to make a lot of trim adjusments in the Ki84 when low and slow? I struggle just changing flap settings. In a dogfight taking my eye off the ball to fiddle around with trim on the keyboard usually results in death pretty dam quick.

Regards.:)

I can't usually work the flaps and the trim and fight at the same time. If I'm stuck in a too high-speed dive (which can happen in a Ki-84) I'll trim her out of it, but I don't usually fool with the trim while at low speed. The flaps on the Ki are pretty amazing, when low and very slow with those flaps out, you can do some amazingly tight turns. The big problem is that you have to be REALLY slow to get them out.

In a fight, I'll stick the the flaps and keep my eye on the target. I'm with you that losing sight of your opponent is usually the step immediately preceding a flaming, spiraling death.

EagleDNY
$.02
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: tedrbr on December 19, 2006, 02:38:59 PM: I usually just keep resetting combat trim in any plane, including Ki-84. My X52 is set up to do trim on the fly, and without actually being there to "feel" the input and results in reality, I don't think I could do a good job of it in a sim in fighters. Mostly I just have it set up for pinpoint bombing and dealing with battle damage.

Very rarely I get slow enough to deploy flaps in a Ki-84, but you are right, it can make some very interesting moved when they are out.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Krusty on December 19, 2006, 03:11:02 PM: They come out about 165 or so. I think the autoclimb speed is just about the max speed you can drop them.

If you're not getting slow enough to release the flaps, then you haven't really lived in a Ki84 yet! When you start a turnfight back off the throttle (if you can) until you bleed your speed down to 150 or so, then pop some flaps, go a little nose-high, and see the magic begin :)
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Oldman731 on December 19, 2006, 04:28:54 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
They come out about 165 or so. I think the autoclimb speed is just about the max speed you can drop them.

If you're not getting slow enough to release the flaps, then you haven't really lived in a Ki84 yet! When you start a turnfight back off the throttle (if you can) until you bleed your speed down to 150 or so, then pop some flaps, go a little nose-high, and see the magic begin :)

Yup. Take the opportunity to make an up-verticle turn, even. The Frank, so far as I'm concerned, is the best non-Spit dogfighting plane in the game, and with a competent pilot (I've seen some of them in action) is about even with the best of the Spits. Others are right, though, you have to turn the auto-trim off just before your fight begins (it's worth dedicating a button to this), keep the fight close, and practice with the plane a bit before it really comes into its own.

- oldman
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Grits on December 24, 2006, 02:57:54 PM: The Ki84 is my favorite ride, and I dont fear any plane when I am in it. I also NEVER use manual trim and the plane flies just fine for me. I used to use manual trim, but stopped and I did just as well as with it.

The best traits of the Ki84 are its great super-slow speed (under 100mph) stability, very high roll rate at said super slow speeds, very quick WEP recovery, and the ability to get its nose high in a spiral climb from nearly any speed the plane can still fly.

Why dont more fly it? Because they are sheep.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Kweassa on December 24, 2006, 06:15:13 PM: Sometimes, questions like these don't need complicated answers... it's just simply most people too suck to ever appreciate a plane other than a La-7 or a Spit16. Their lazy, impotent brains dictates them to succumb to the need for a non-thinking, non-acting, non-challenging, point-and-click-hizooka plane.

I mean, the Ki-84's very good, but you still gotta learn it to fly it. So why spend any time learning its quirks and personalities, when you can go take a Spit16 and do whatever the Ki-84 can do without trying too hard?

Like the man said, they're sheep. That's all they will ever be.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Viking on December 25, 2006, 06:53:57 AM: That was rather harsh Kweassa, and uncalled for.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Krusty on December 26, 2006, 12:28:14 AM: Grits said it. Kweassa was just agreeing. Both have a very valid point. 99% of the AH player base doesn't want to spend time learning to fly. They want to take off in the bestest fastest uberest plane in the game, HO somebody until they get a kill (forget about how many times they die in the process) then run for home squealing with glee that they finally got a kill.

Sadly, I'm not making this up.

Those are the sheep. Those are the folks that won't ever appreciate the Ki84. They are the majority of pilots you will run up against in this game.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: GRUNHERZ on December 26, 2006, 03:01:22 AM: IMO - Ki84 is not used because the Spit 16 eliminated its only real advantage in the MA, that being excellent vertical performance.

Other than its fine vertical performance the Ki84 is rather slow, handles poorly at speed and the turn is unexceptional until the flaps kick in at very low speeds.

Spit 16, filled the role Ki84 had previously.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: bozon on December 26, 2006, 06:16:08 AM: Spit 16 is fool proof. Ki84 is not.

That's all there is to it.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: tedrbr on December 26, 2006, 12:18:56 PM: Have to agree with Kweassa, Grits, and Krusty's observation. The majority of pilots are looking for the "uber-ride". Spixteen, LaLa, Niki, Pony, Dora (only one of these with a good K/D ratio); whatever they consider "the best". That's one reason why the crowd is always in the Late Arenas, not Early, Mid (both of which have higher caps all the time for some reason), or AvA.... access to those planes.

(Disclaimer: Now, I'm usually in the late arenas myself, but I'm following the crowd for a good fight. I'd just as soon follow the corwd to AvA, Early, or Mid.... but that is not where they are at. And yes, some of you have seen me in La5's and Niki's on occassion in the past, and I still fly Dora's and Pony D and B's at times.)

I still monitor the Help channel in game, and many new (read as: totally clueless) pilots will ask "what's the best plane", "what's the fastest plane". They are looking for a twitch shooter game. They want to be in the "best ride". Blaze straight ahead in some version of point and shoot. Quick self gratification. Some are score.....chasers. Many not into any kind of cooperative play. Check 6's less common from them (and in the arenas in general of late). Some want (or need desperately) every advantage they can get.

Of course, the K/D ratio of these "uber-rides" are not spectacular in any way. There *are* some good spit, lala, and pony drivers out there, that can get their planes to perform and are good sticks; but the K/D ratio sez that the majority of those plane's pilots are not that good, despite the "uber" tag.

Then there are the real sticks out there. They do well flying a particular ride, or sometimes everything, other than "the popular" rides. They fly a plane in LA that is outclassed by part of the planeset, or takes skill to get performance out of it, or has some other quirk in it's nature.

I'm not in their league, and I don't try to master just a few planes from the planeset. I've found the Ki-61 and the Fw190A5 are great for taking on GV's. The Ki-84 is my favorite dogfighter. I'll use either the Bf109-K4 or Bf109-G14 with gondolas to intercept buffs, and Pony B's or D's to escort them. Only Spit I fly is the Seafire from Carriers. C205, La5, Yaks, F4, or E4 all fun at times.

And the Spit16 does not fill the role the Ki-84 previously had, GRUNHERZ..... the Ki-84 never had that great a following in AHII. I've seen it's use in-game up lately, probably due to recent threads like this one, or new players that actually have bothered to check Soda's website write-up on it.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Zanth on December 28, 2006, 07:45:39 AM: I hate the auto retracting flaps. They go back in at the worst times.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: tedrbr on December 28, 2006, 01:05:11 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Zanth
I hate the auto retracting flaps. They go back in at the worst times.

Better they be ripped from the airframe when you reach their stress limits? That's the alternative.

:rofl
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Krusty on December 28, 2006, 01:17:30 PM: Although, interestingly enough, corsairs had spring-actuated flaps. When airspeed went above 250 (or whatever) the spring didn't have the strength to push the flap into the wind, and the flap auto-retracted. It would be cool to have this on the corsairs.

Similar to the auto-deploy on the n1k2 but in reverse!
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Patches1 on December 28, 2006, 02:17:00 PM: I think it is modeled in the F4U, Krusty.

At least in mine, I cannot deploy any flap above 250.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: Krusty on December 28, 2006, 02:24:55 PM: Right now all flaps auto-retract. What they don't do is auto-deploy again to their previous state when the speed drops below the max limit again. The Corsairs apparently had this capability. You fly at 240, drop flaps, then nose down. The flaps will autoretract (game code to prevent them from ripping off), but then you nose up again and drop back to 240 and they stay up. They won't go back to wherever they were.
Title: Ki-84 Usage (or Lack Thereof)
Post by: okiebob on January 01, 2007, 03:35:13 AM: i read most of this but not all of this. one of my fav planes. it is the 2nd most flown plane of me (1st is the 38) and 38vs84 is not an easy win for the 84. you just fly against crappy 38 pilots.