Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on August 31, 2006, 12:34:15 PM
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http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2377069&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
Okay... so there's one controller in the tower and he hasn't had enough sleep.
Whatever.
One would think that it would be a good idea to check the compass before rolling on takeoff. Do they not do this?
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I think it was a series of blunders, beginning with under-paid pilots and ending with sloppy ATC scheduling.
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Mainly it was pilot error but because ATC officers duty is to watch the traffic in his/hers traffic area he is also responsible. One of my collegues managed to stop one accident when under heavy fog conditions one plane used wrong runway and he managed to see one tiny light speeding at the wrong way. He told the pilot to stop and the pilot complied. It was later found that the plane would have definately crashed into ILS localizer antenna.. classic example where disoriented pilot makes stupid mistakes... HSI was 180 degrees off..
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Sorry he got 2 hours sleep, but responsability for the crash rests solely with the Pilot in Command. The controller didn't put him on a runway conflicting with other traffic - he issued the clearence to a runway, the PIC went to the wrong runway, died - end of story.
Wolf
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No accident has just one thing that causes it. There's always a chain of events that happens and if just one link in that chain is broken then no accident ever occurs.
The media will be the media. The truth is it was a sad, tragic and like any other accident...could have been prevented. They will make a bigger deal than need be over the plane swap, duty times...which as I understand isn't an issue. However according to a Comair employee the crew had been there for more than a day just the aircraft arrived the night before. I have no positive verification of this since I can't get into their computer system.
One controller operations aren't uncommon. While during the day having a minimum of 2 controllers is a necessity it's not so in the wee hours of the night and early morning. For instance checking flightaware it shows that Lexington yesterday had only 9 IFR departures between the hours of 11pm and 6:30am. There were a whopping 6 IFR arrivals. Are 2 guys supposed to sit in the tower to watch 15 airplanes takeoff or land for 7-1/2 hours?
I don't think the NTSB will list the controller not watching the airplane takeoff as a contributing factor. Their #1 job is to separate IFR traffic and if there was no other IFR traffic...he's got an easy job.
At any rate there were many opportunities to prevent the accident but just like any other accident none of the links in the chain were broken. The best thing we can do is learn from the mistakes and be safer in the future.
I posted this on another board:
I flew for the first time today since the crash and took an extra one second to look and see that the runway and my heading bug matched. I'll be dedicating that one second of every flight I make to the passengers and crewmembers of that flight. They have made me safer for it and I thank them and hope they rest in piece.
I'll also be doing flight director takeoffs at any airport I'm not familiar with. When you're in Go-Around and Heading mode if the aircraft is not lined up on the runway heading you select the command bars will not be level. Our ops specs say for all 135 charter legs we are to use the FD, but I'll be incorporating it on part 91 (owner use and empty) legs. This is something I haven't been doing and have been using raw data at most airports rather than ones we visit often.
May they RIP and here's hoping that Jim P. makes it.
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I'm afraid I can't see how the controller can be in any way blamed. If he had looked up at the right moment he would have averted the crash, maybe.
But the responsibility lies with the pilots at the end of the day. They lined up on the wrong and unlit runway. It was a mistake but there you are. The fact that it was unlit may be a factor in accident report because the runway they should have used had a lighting failure when they flew in previously.
So you can see why the fact that it was unlit may in fact have actually confirmed for them that they were on the right runway.
As Golfer says no one thing causes accidents.
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I am very interested to hear transcript from cockpit voice recorder...Did 2IC pick up they were on the wrong runway and announce to the captain? If so, how did the captain respond? I think in all likelyness (sp), both PIC and 2IC failed in many area's including CRM, and basic private ticket av knowledge, which resulted in the deaths of 49 people...tragic...
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Lexington - The pilots on doomed Comair Flight 5191 initially boarded the wrong plane before taking off from the wrong runway, according to a US newspaper report on Wednesday.
The pilots got to the airport at about 05:15, boarded the wrong plane and began flight preparations before a gate worker noticed the error and told the pilots to change aircraft, the Washington Post reported, citing Deborah Hersman of the national transportation safety board.
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Would there be a cockpit transcript from the FIRST plane?
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My best friend called me the day it happened...he's an American Airlines pilot and has flown out of that airport many times. He said the mistake they made on that taxiway is very very easy to do.
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Originally posted by LePaul
My best friend called me the day it happened...he's an American Airlines pilot and has flown out of that airport many times. He said the mistake they made on that taxiway is very very easy to do.
In other words, he doesn't use a compass either.
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Originally posted by Sandman
In other words, he doesn't use a compass either.
Bad taste.
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Do you ever do anything asides snipe ?
He simply stated that the way the taxiways are setup with the runway, its a mistake that could happen if one wasnt careful.
That's it.
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You know that when the captain realized they were out of runway, his instinct said :
"Full reverse/brakes, run off the end of the runway thru the fence, bend the plane, everybody lives".
Then he recalled all many years of hard work to get there, and concluded:
"Hell no, I'm not going to loose my licence, If I can make it airborne, maybe no one will notice".:(
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Originally posted by LePaul
Do you ever do anything asides snipe ?
He simply stated that the way the taxiways are setup with the runway, its a mistake that could happen if one wasnt careful.
That's it.
That's perfectly understandable that a pilot can make a wrong turn or miss an intersection. I'm sure it happens all the time.
What I don't understand is how a pilot can hear and acknowledge that he's been assigned to runway 22, then roll on to a runway and with the compass pointing at 260, apply power.
It seems like simple basic navigation and your comment makes it sound like these sorts of mistakes are common. I sincerely hope not.
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Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
You know that when the captain realized they were out of runway, his instinct said :
"Full reverse/brakes, run off the end of the runway thru the fence, bend the plane, everybody lives".
Then he recalled all many years of hard work to get there, and concluded:
"Hell no, I'm not going to loose my licence, If I can make it airborne, maybe no one will notice".:(
That's being assumptive. You simply dont know.
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Originally posted by LePaul
That's being assumptive. You simply dont know.
I'm fairly certain that was sarcasm.
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Originally posted by Sandman
It seems like simple basic navigation and your comment makes it sound like these sorts of mistakes are common. I sincerely hope not.
Sadly there are a lot of aircraft accidents out there that have killed many people that were for very careless errors. The one that comes to mind is the entire flight crew messing with replacing a 10 cent bulb in the cockpit...rather than paying attention to flying, they augered in, killing everyone.
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Like every airplane accidents, it's easy to see the obvious once the deed happened. Anyone involve in flying commercially knows that it can happen to any of us.
For anyone else, I'm sure there was at least once in their career/life where they comited a serious bluder and later on deducted "What was I thinking".
In aviation, the consequences are usually unforgiving. Hell, I'm convinced that each of you AH uber warriors, already landed gear up in AH, despite 1000s of hours played.
Bad days happen, and hopefully the system is build with many layers to try to prevent brainfarts. Systematic checklist usage despite knowing it by heart is one of them, Pilot flying/ pilot monitoring is another layer, ATC vigilence, various electronic gismos ... but eventually, all the starts will line up and the multi layer system will fail.
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There is a "hump" in the main runway, which by all accounts, makes the runway appear shorter than usual. Pilots probably assumed the remainder of the strip lay beyond their POV.
I guess none of the posters augered a corsair off a flattop with full fuel and ord...pre-patch...
:huh
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Wolfala is correct. It is pilot responsibility to assure they are on the assigned runway.
Of course you should check heading before advancing throttles, particularly if the airport has a known, unusual configuration as this one has, including recent taxiway construction. The runways are 40 degrees offset and what you think you see looking down the runway is no excuse. There are no mitigating circumstances if they were cleared for the correct runway, and no getting around pilot error on this.
There was a comment in the other thread about hoping the FO recovers to fly again. His recovery is hoped for, but I would hope he would never fly again. I would expect at the very least his ATP and commercial rating be pulled.
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Originally posted by Rolex
I would expect at the very least his ATP and commercial rating be pulled.
You think he's going to do it again?
That was my remark and that was directed at some very very very distasteful remarks that got the thread locked in the first place. I'd said I hope (and I do) he returns to flying and I can only hope he is given the opportunity to look the member who made the remarks right in the eye and know he's the better man.
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This came in through the Grapevine.
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2006 5:51 PM
Subject: Aviation disaster --a pilot's view
Aviation disaster --a pilot's view
A pilot/writer posted this at another writing site. He gave me permission to repost this here because it is both relevant & important. - Lynn
(I will provide his email to those who ask but he doesn't want to be named.)
I live in Lexington and have thirty years of airline experience flying in and out of LEX. I was also the station liason for Lexington for ten years. Here is what I think happened:
The two runways in question share the same common run-up area. The extented taxiway to the correct runway, runway 28 was closed due to construction. It has always been difficult to tell between the two runways when you are taxiing out. The natural thing to do is to take the wrong one. It is just there and you are always tempted to take it. When I flew out of LEX we always checked each other at least three times to make sure we were taking the correct runway. We checked the chart, we checked to make sure the correct runway number was at the end and we always double checked the FMS generated moving map.
Most FMS systems will have a warning called "runway dissimularity" pop up in magenta when your position at takeoff doesn't match the runway you programmed into the computer. This would not happen at LEX since you are virtually in the same spot when you take either runway.
It was also raining at the time of takeoff and dark. The control tower opens
at 6am (because we are, after all, all about saving money) and only has one controller on duty at that time. He or she has to: run ground control, clearance delivery, approach control and departure control. The one controller also has to program the ATIS and make the coffee. He or she probably cleared comair to take off and then put their head back down to do a chore or work another airplane.
Taking the runway, the comair guy would put the power up and wouldn't realize they were on the wrone runway until they were about 70% down the pike. Too late to safely abort so he probaby decided to try and continue the takeoff.
This is when the eye witnesses heard a series of explosions and though the plane blew up in the air. Didn't happen -- what they heard and saw were compressor stalls of probably both engines. The pilot no doubt pushed the throttles all the way up and that demand to the engines combined with the steep pitch attitude cut off enough air to the intakes to cause the compressor stalls -- which, by the way, made them even more doomed. Less power.
They stalled or simply hit one of the large hills to the west of the airport and came to a stop. Everybody on board was probably injured but alive. Then, a second or two later the post-crash fire began. With the darkness and the fact that most of them had broken legs, pelvises and backs they literally burned alive. Not smoke inhalation. They really actually burned to death.
In my role as station liason I wrote most of the post crash safety procedure
for Delta at that field. Too bad there weren't enough survivors to use them. BTW, comair and the press will tell you what a great plane the RJ is. This is a total lie. The Canadair RJ was designed to be an executive barge, not an airliner. They were designed to fly about ten times a month, not ten
times a day. They have a long history of mechanical design shortfalls. I've flown on it and have piloted it. It is a steaming, underpowered piece of
****. It never had enough power to get out of its own way and this situation is exactly what everybody who flies it was afraid of.
The senior member of the crew had about five and a half years of total jet experience. The copilot less. They had minimum training (to save money --enjoy that discount ticket!) and were flying a minimally equipped pos on very short rest. The layover gets in about 10pm the night before. They report for pick-up at 4:30am. I'm sorry if I sound bitter but this is exactly the direction the entire airline industry is going. Expect to see bigger more colorful crashes in the future.
email me if you need an off the record so-called expert. I have 20,000 of
heavy jet flying time and am type rated in the 727, 757, 767, 777, DC-8,
DC-9 and L-1011.
There is always an accident chain; it doesn't necessarily start the day of the flight either. Ponder that.
(http://www.bluegrassreport.org/bluegrass_politics/images/lex.gif)
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source (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=aIlQ_AOv2cUQ&refer=canada)
"Flight 5191 departed in predawn darkness yesterday from the unlighted 3,500-foot Runway 26 at the Lexington, Kentucky, airport. The strip is half the length of Runway 22, which is normally used by commercial jets such as the Comair 50-seat CRJ- 100."
Any corroboration that 26 was unlit?
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http://www.airnav.com/airport/KLEX
Note: Has lights - MIRL's. Doesn't mean they weren't notam'd out of service though.
Runway 8/26
Dimensions: 3500 x 75 ft. / 1067 x 23 m
Surface: asphalt/concrete, in poor condition
CONC IS SEVERELY CRACKED.
Weight bearing capacity:
Single wheel: 12500 lbs
Runway edge lights: medium intensity
MIRL RY 08/26 OTS INDEFLY.
RUNWAY 26
Latitude: 38-02.433593N
Longitude: 084-35.855642W
Elevation: 972.6 ft.
Gradient: 0.3
Traffic pattern: left
Runway heading: 265 magnetic, 261 true
Markings: basic, in fair condition
Runway end identifier lights: yes
REIL OTS INDEFLY.
Touchdown point: yes, no lights
Obstructions: 25 ft. tree, 400 ft. from runway, 150 ft. right of centerline, 8:1 slope to clear 17 ft. pole, 552 ft. from runway, 39 ft. left of centerline, 20:1 slope to clear
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"You think he's going to do it again?" - Golfer
No, because I don't believe any insurer would allow him to be hired by any company to fly a commercial flight again, even if he did maintain his ratings.
Sorry, Golfer, but I don't agree. I can't see any logic in your view. Good judgement in unusual circumstances is an important consideration of someone's ability to perform their job professionally. That is why flight hours are limited because you are expected to be completely focused on your duties.
It's not unlike the difference between performing on Broadway and acting in a community play. When the lights go on, professionals put 100% into their task at hand, no matter how mundane it may feel. They may have played the same part every day and twice on Saturday for years, but they perform with the same focus because they are professionals.
You know, not everyone is good at their work. Somewhere in the world are the 10 worst surgeons and I trust you would hope they would never operate again if it was found that they made elementary errors in judgement that cost people their lives.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KLEX
Note: Has lights - MIRL's. Doesn't mean they weren't notam'd out of service though.
Runway 8/26
Dimensions: 3500 x 75 ft. / 1067 x 23 m
Surface: asphalt/concrete, in poor condition
CONC IS SEVERELY CRACKED.
Weight bearing capacity:
Single wheel: 12500 lbs
Runway edge lights: medium intensity
MIRL RY 08/26 OTS INDEFLY.[/size]
RUNWAY 26
Latitude: 38-02.433593N
Longitude: 084-35.855642W
Elevation: 972.6 ft.
Gradient: 0.3
Traffic pattern: left
Runway heading: 265 magnetic, 261 true
Markings: basic, in fair condition
Runway end identifier lights: yes
REIL OTS INDEFLY.[/size]
Touchdown point: yes, no lights
Obstructions: 25 ft. tree, 400 ft. from runway, 150 ft. right of centerline, 8:1 slope to clear 17 ft. pole, 552 ft. from runway, 39 ft. left of centerline, 20:1 slope to clear
Is that current info? If so, no lights on 26.