Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: skysnipr on August 31, 2006, 04:09:35 PM
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Why is it that the Spit 14(earlier model) is perked and the Spit 16(later model) is not? This seems a little odd to me. Am I missing something here?
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You're missing several things.
First and foremost is that the spit14 came AFTER the spit16.
Also as bad as the spit16 is, the spit14 is even more lethal.
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simplified - spit 16 is really just a spitfire 9 with an american engine.
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Not really.. It's the best version of what is basically a spit9, with one of the more powerful engine setups. I still say it's worth 2 perkies (everybody has 2 perkies, but it makes them fly something else every other sortie)
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Originally posted by Krusty
Not really.. It's the best version of what is basically a spit9, with one of the more powerful engine setups. I still say it's worth 2 perkies (everybody has 2 perkies, but it makes them fly something else every other sortie)
Krusty, the Spit LF16e is exactly the same as a Spitfire LFIXe. It's only difference is it has the Packard built Merlin 266 where the LFIXe has the Rolls Royce built Merlin 66.
They look, fly, operate the same. If you restored a Spit IX today and put a Merlin 266 in it, you'd essentially change it to a 16.
If Pyro had called it a Spitfire LFIXe, no one would be grumbling, but he was wise enough to spread it out among the FIX, LFVIII and LFXVIe so that we covered 43-45 very well in 2 stage Merlin Spits.
I do believe he listened to our suggestions to do the XVIe and in some regards it's almost too bad in that too many folks think that 16 must be better then 14 so it's uber.
They don't know the history of the Spits to understand its a 1945 LFIXe
Oh and just to set the record straight. The XVI did come off the production lines after the XIV started down the lines as the XIV was operational in February 44 and the XVI in the Autum of 1944 around October or so.
Again it's still an LFIXe with the American Merlin 266 but those engines didn't start arriving for Spitfire use until later in 44. Understand that IXs and XVIs were coming off the same production line and were so named depending on which engine was put in, so you could have a Spit LFIXe roll off the line in front of what was a Spitfire LFXVIe just because the second bird got an American Merlin
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similarly on the german side the G10 is better than and was produced prior to the G14.
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at 20k the spit 14 kicks the crap out of the 16 for speed.
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Originally posted by moneyguy
at 20k the spit 14 kicks the crap out of the 16 for speed.
Not just at 20k... The Spit XIV is faster than the Spit XVI at any altitude and can manage 444 mph at best altitude. When Combat Tour debuts, you will have a greater appreciation for the Spit14... Up high, it is a very nasty adversary.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Krusty
Not really..
really!
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Originally posted by Guppy35
If Pyro had called it a Spitfire LFIXe, no one would be grumbling
There you have it wrong. The performance and total UFO flight model is where all the grumbling comes from.
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Originally posted by Krusty
There you have it wrong. The performance and total UFO flight model is where all the grumbling comes from.
Krusty, for every guy who understands what the 16 is, there are 10 who think that because it's numbered 16 it should be better then 14.
What does it do that a 1945 Spitfire LFIXe shouldn't do?
the MA airwar is fought at the alts that the XVI was optimised for. I fly the 38G almost all the time, with an occasional J or L flight. I don't ever recall being 'fearful' of fighting a 16. If I run up against someone like Stang in an 16, they'll more often then not get me in my G, but more often then not if its an average AH pilot I kill the 16 and I'm an average stick at best.
I just don't see what the fuss is all about. When I was flying the 8 or 9 and fought 16s I could beat them unless it was a really good stick as the 16 drivers think they'll outturn the longer spanned wing IX or VIII.
Just because you see lots of 16s doesn't mean it's uber, anymore then the LA7, N1K or 51D like the majority of AH drivers fly.
THe average AH stick wants something he thinks he can win in and is easier to fly so they take what fits that. The Spit is an easy bird to feel like you are a better stick when you fly it cause it does a lot of things well. The real Spit did that too.
I've mentioned it before, but I was talking to a current Spit driver at Duxford last year. He said it was almost unfair how easy the Spit was to fly. His comment was they should have started training in Spits and moved to Tiger Moths afterwards as the Spit is so forgiving. When he and another pilot flew their Spit V and Hurricane II to Malta last September for the "Merlins over Malta" bit, they both wanted to fly the Hurricane because it was more of a challenge to fly.
So what have they overmodelled in the AH Spit? Sure sounds like the real Spit flew that way too :)
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Originally posted by madrebel
similarly on the german side the G10 is better than and was produced prior to the G14.
Oops wrong.
G-14 production began in July 1944 while G-10 production began in Oct 1944.
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Krusty instead of making dumb comments about a book, you should go buy it so that you have some idea about Spitfires.
What book? Spirfire: The History
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Originally posted by Krusty
There you have it wrong. The performance and total UFO flight model is where all the grumbling comes from.
Well, while the Spit16 is impressive down low, it isn't especially remarkable when compared to some commonly seen types. Consider these as viable counters to the Spit16:
Bf 109F-4
Bf 109G-2
Ki-84
La-5FN
La-7
N1K2-J
F4U-1D
F6F-5
Any of the above can prevail against the Spit16 off of a Co-E, Co-alt merge, assuming the pilot knows how to exploit his type's advantages and the Spit16's weaknesses.
Just remember one thing: The Spit16 is not a great turn fighter. It is, however, an exceptional E fighter. Knowing that, you need to get the Spit16 pilot to feel he can turn with you. If he does, he surrenders his greatest attribute and every one of those listed above can handily beat it in a turn fight, except the two Lavochkins, which are able to match it, but have twice WEP duration, meaning that if the fight is prolonged, they gain the advantage.
My regards,
Widewing
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......
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it just sucks that ur average spitfire guy ruins the rep of the spit, i see one now and almost automaticly i say "look at this dweeb". In my begining dweeb stage i flew it:lol , but they as my tactics hanged and progressed(also all the dweeb calls lifts u out of that 16 fast) it couldnt give me what i wanted. In the m/a enviroment where everybody flyin in the weeds spitfire is a great performer, but up higher things change.
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There is nothing more deadly in AH than a well flown Spitfire.
IMHO
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i mainly flew alot of f4u's 109s yak a lettle bit of everthing depending on the week i felt like flying
but whenever i flew the spitfire it was a vacation from all the work needed to win dogfights in other aircraft i loved to use the Spitfire as a E-fighter its great in that role using the climbing abilty great Accleration easy handling great diver and then finely finishing it off with that amazing agilty made it a real treat to fly
and we now have 2 better Energy spitfires the 14 and the 16
of course the 14 being better but costly
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Originally posted by Angus
There is nothing more deadly in AH than a well flown Spitfire.
IMHO
There's the key though. There aren't that many well flown Spits. Lots that flat turn thinking they can out turn everything but not many that use the vertical or throttle management in the fight.
You KNOW when you've found one of them
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Not one of those planes WW listed has hispanos.
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Just like the La that suprise a lot with its performance, the spit 16 is a specialized low alt fighter. Most american fighters were designed for high alt work and those with sperchargers (P47, P38) were specialized for it. Germans compromised with their main models but had plenty of specialized subtypes.
The MA is a low alt combat enviroment. This is why Russian models do very well as well as the low alt spit model - the XVI. If fightes were at 25-30k, the La7 and spit 16 would have been poor rides, while spit 14 and P47N would have been outrageous.
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25-30K also favours the Spit IX and VIII....
Funny how it went, - fisrt it was a race for higher and higher altitude, then they modded them for lower jobs.
BTW did they ever modify a griffon engined Spit for low alt?
(Oh I know about the XII :))
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Dont know if anyone said this or anything yet, and this is the most intricate, fancy detail I know about spits: Notice something different about the 14??? other than the fact that the engine is half again as large, its got a 5 bladed propeller. Its fast alright, but it also had severe torque problems on take-off and landing.
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Hehe, already in WW2 the ultimate Spit solved that, - the Spit 21.
They had a contra-prop (double), so no particular torque problem.
BTW, a report I read recently was about a comparison between the Mk IX and the XIV. It was mentioned that the turn capabilty was equal which I belive is not the case in AH.
Flew the XIV the other day it's one hell of a bird.
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the RAF late war rides are crippled by torque. something which does not seem to effect other late war aircraft in the game. The typhoon/tempest barely roll at slow speeds against the torque, the spit 14 has an odd rudder input because of torque which messes up aim. LA7 N1K do not seem to have any adverse affects from torque and 109 is limited.
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Actually Furby I'd say the 109's suffer from Tourqe just as much at slow speeds. Ever tried rolling a 109 at 150mph to the right? Hardly works at all.
But for spits and 109's this is very accurate IMO, smapp light plane with a big a** engine is bound to create some tourqe.
It is weirder with the Tiffies though.
The Ki84 should have far more tourqe aswell I think, as should pretty much every US bird.
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Spit 14 falls flat on its face in MA, unless by some act of God you actualy run into an nme ftr above 15k, its not worth the perks, and most of the guys that DO pay the price wind up getting killed below 10k by spits that are much more nimble at lower alts.
Of course this is an opinion, and we know that they are worth a pee hole in the snow, lol.
Good pilots are always gonna argue the advantages of the perk monsters, and how they dominate, but its like any other plane, if you fly it outside its element your gonna die, and more often than not that spit14 just comes up short in a straight on turn fight, of course there is the vertical......:t
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Krusty instead of making dumb comments about a book, you should go buy it so that you have some idea about Spitfires.
What book? Spirfire: The History
I just saw this.
WTF? Dude I made NO references to any books. Get off the crack.
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Originally posted by stephen
Spit 14 falls flat on its face in MA, unless by some act of God you actualy run into an nme ftr above 15k, its not worth the perks, and most of the guys that DO pay the price wind up getting killed below 10k by spits that are much more nimble at lower alts.
Of course this is an opinion, and we know that they are worth a pee hole in the snow, lol.
Good pilots are always gonna argue the advantages of the perk monsters, and how they dominate, but its like any other plane, if you fly it outside its element your gonna die, and more often than not that spit14 just comes up short in a straight on turn fight, of course there is the vertical......:t
Problem is, people think the Spit 14 should turn like a 5. It's by far the heaviest Spit in the game. It can turn, but it won't turn like the Merlin Spits can. It's much more of an energy fighter with a good climb rate. Flown right it should beat the other Spits.
Again it comes down to knowing the difference between Spit variants. Always remember the guy who tried to turn fight me in a Spit 14 while I was in a 5. It was no contest. There was no way he was going to turn inside the much lighter Spit 5 in a flat turn.. He had no concept of the vertical either which made it worse for him.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I just saw this.
WTF? Dude I made NO references to any books. Get off the crack.
I think his point Krusty, was sometimes it seems like you throw comments out and hope they stick, while those of us reading it are wondering where are you getting your information.
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Well I said:
The spit14 came after the spit16 <-- this is true.
If the spit16 is a spit9, it's not "just" a spit9, it's the one of the best versions of the spit9. <-- this is true, also.
I don't think I need to back up either of these with MLA style citations. They're pretty basic comments.
My other comment (UFO) was totally in relation to AH2 and requires no references other than a prerequisite that you fly AH.
I understand what you're saying, but he and a couple of others like posting similar things to me when they don't apply to me at all. It gets annoying. Sorry if I came off as harsh to the other posters in this thread.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I just saw this.
WTF? Dude I made NO references to any books. Get off the crack.
Maybe this comment of yours from the 109E/Spit I thread will help refresh your failing memory?
:huh :confused: :huh :O
Just because you use crack doesn't mean everyone else does.;)
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Krusty:
"The spit14 came after the spit16 <-- this is true. "
Yes it is true, and not. The Spit 16 was already around under another number-hat with a British built engine before the XIV flew (CCC MK IX, boosted). But again the Mk XII was also around in 1943, and about the time that our particular Mk 16 flew the Brits were boosting up to +25, which is the Merlin Spit we're never gonna get.
So they are overlapping.
But we don't have (and I doubt we ever will) the ultimate Spitties , even as the winner for some years - trouble starts in 1943.
Too darn good :D
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Originally posted by stephen
Spit 14 falls flat on its face in MA, unless by some act of God you actualy run into an nme ftr above 15k, its not worth the perks, and most of the guys that DO pay the price wind up getting killed below 10k by spits that are much more nimble at lower alts.
Of course this is an opinion, and we know that they are worth a pee hole in the snow, lol.
Good pilots are always gonna argue the advantages of the perk monsters, and how they dominate, but its like any other plane, if you fly it outside its element your gonna die, and more often than not that spit14 just comes up short in a straight on turn fight, of course there is the vertical......:t
O man SPit14 is NOT a turn fighter. It is a BnZ and Vert fighter. It has way to much torque and it is to heavey to be an effective turnfighter.
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I thought that the comment {of course there is the vertical:t} would get across that I know where the plane shines and it deffinatly is NOT bellow 10k turn fighting with earlier spits.