Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Stoney74 on September 02, 2006, 03:17:22 AM
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Ok, this is not a flame, just a simple question...
TC got angry with me last night because he said I ho'd him. My take was he was in a Pony D, higher and faster than me. I was in a Jug N, and low and slow. We made a not quite direct HO pass, and I dinged his engine and made him smoke.
When I first started playing, I wouldn't pull the trigger on the HO because a lot of folks said it was bad form. After being HO'd by just about everyone, I started fighting fire with fire. To be honest, if I'd known it was TC, I wouldn't have pulled the trigger, because I know he wouldn't do it to me. But, I'm gunshy at this point because I've been shot down in HO when I didn't pull the trigger, and the other guy did. Now, I pretty much expect it, so its a reflex.
So, my question is this--is there a time--any time, when the HO is not considered bad form. If I'm defensive in a lessor plane, being dove on by a better plane that has alt and speed, is it still bad to HO in an attempt to drive them off? Does the other guy automatically get rewarded for his e-state by deserving a clean approach to my six? If a Hurri II, Il-2, 110, C-Hog, etc. pull into me for a HO pass, I'll pull off to avoid facing those guns. I have been flying the jug a lot, and if I'm on the deck slow, I don't feel like I have many options...
If there's some technique I don't know, I'd be more than happy to learn.
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The HO is never bad form when the other guy shoots first. Another thing to note, its only a HO if you BOTH have a gun solution. If you both go head on, but you get under him and upper-cut into his engine, thats not a HO, thats a... lemme think of a name for that... Under-bounce!
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To me, HO is *always* "bad form". In most cases pulling for the HO means you loose position/angle.
The questions is: do *you* consider it bad form? If yes... then DONT DO IT. No matter what the others do or think. "If i had known thats XYZ i wouldnt have HOed..." IMHO thats an excuse.
But then, i have a very strict moral for my fighting etiquette. Do i loose fights because of that? Yes, i get killed... but to me i didnt "loose" anything. When i pull the trigger in a HO, then i lost.... no matter who died.
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Originally posted by Stoney74
Ok, this is not a flame, just a simple question...
TC got angry with me last night because he said I ho'd him. My take was he was in a Pony D, higher and faster than me. I was in a Jug N, and low and slow. We made a not quite direct HO pass, and I dinged his engine and made him smoke.
When I first started playing, I wouldn't pull the trigger on the HO because a lot of folks said it was bad form. After being HO'd by just about everyone, I started fighting fire with fire. To be honest, if I'd known it was TC, I wouldn't have pulled the trigger, because I know he wouldn't do it to me. But, I'm gunshy at this point because I've been shot down in HO when I didn't pull the trigger, and the other guy did. Now, I pretty much expect it, so its a reflex.
So, my question is this--is there a time--any time, when the HO is not considered bad form. If I'm defensive in a lessor plane, being dove on by a better plane that has alt and speed, is it still bad to HO in an attempt to drive them off? Does the other guy automatically get rewarded for his e-state by deserving a clean approach to my six? If a Hurri II, Il-2, 110, C-Hog, etc. pull into me for a HO pass, I'll pull off to avoid facing those guns. I have been flying the jug a lot, and if I'm on the deck slow, I don't feel like I have many options...
If there's some technique I don't know, I'd be more than happy to learn.
ROFL, Stoney74, let me send you the film, Sir. I was not angry at you, you did not HO me, it was one of the other 3 Dolts.but also remeber me apologizing for my having too much of that good stuff.......and you wasn't even coming at me headon btw.......
and for even more chits & giggles I'll send you an even funnier film of me and TexasTC vs WM's sharp & Scrap in the DA......you would really fall out of ya chair I do believe......
I prefer not to on most accounts, but it is your money, your way you want to play, I can not tell people how to play, only show them a better challenging way, perhaps.
~S~
edited: good stuff is refering to the bottle of Patron (Tequila) I finished off after going to the DA, and let me warn ya never switch from patron to jose especial if ya run out, you will have a HO splitting headache the next day after you miss the first 13 wake up calls from your work!!! ROFL
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Ho is bad form, but as it seems you didnt ho TC. Remember if an enemy whines about a ho it might also be he is talking about a diffrent pilot. A lot of the whines (not TC though, but a lot of other people) are forcing head on encounters and then whine because they get shot down a lot head on.
If you think you are "Always" HOed it is sometimes because you, yourself either force this kind of encounter OR are so hard to shoot down that the enemy pilot desperately tries every possibility to shoot at you. What i want to say here is that 1st, when you always fly directly into the enemy to engage him youll have to take a lot of HO encounters, so eaven if you dont fire the other pilots get a lot of chances and 2nd if you are in a slow, agile and well turning plane the other guy cant outmaneuver you but just pulls away and comes back guns blasting, no matter which way you turn.
I usually fire if i get a ho shot. Now you might ask why do it if it is bad form so i will try to explain. I try to engage in a way that there is no head on situation, rather want to have a good position than a 50 50 chance of dieing. But if i mess up the merge and land in HO situation, then its bad style. So in my eyes the shooting is not the bad thing but flying in a way that it is eaven possible to fire head on is a bad form.
Another reason is that when in a ho situation the other guy notices that I do NOT fire he often FORCES HO situations and fires himself, because he is save since i dont fire back.
Hope this helps & doesnt make it more complicated !
cu schutt
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just a few quick things on the HO...
it can always be avoided, if you have decent SA you should be able to guess where he's going, and if he really is going for you, especially from higher up, never HO, waste of energy, and you're most likely to die to a higher opponent. best thing to do is turn away from his HO and roll your plane so that he has very little profile to shoot at.
from there, defensive ACM's should hold you until you can level the enrgy states and get em :)
it is hard for new players, the whole HO issue, but personally i consider almost any face shot bad form, simply because it's the *lazy* way out of a fight, end it quick.
if you ever need help with any moves to help you defend against HOtards and BnZ guys, i'd be happy to help you :)
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Well, no worries TC. I just thought I'd use this opportunity to expand my horizons a little.
Maybe if they'd just put some tail guns on the Jug it wouldn't be such an issue.
Thanks for all the replies...
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First I think you have to define a "HO".
90% of all merges at the start of a fight are in the head to head area, the other 10% are bounces. From there on, its all angles. In the DA all first passes are ussally agree to be guns cold... no firering, and alls fair after that.
To me an HO is when you do a head to head merge, and their guns are firering faster than their engines! I almost never fire on that first pass. To me it just isn't right, after that, if the enemy that Im fighting isn't spraying with every pass, I'll hold my fire till I have manuvered to a good shot then take it. To me the fight is what its all about, who can get their plane into the right position for a good guns solution.
Thats how I spend my $15, alas, we are in the MA, and I end up dead alot to spraying dweebs who can only fly strat at ya with guns blazing.
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After the first pass it isn't a HO any more. Well, technically it's a HO, but not one worthy of calling names and whining on 200. The ones that come at you from 5000 yards out, using pure pursuit the whole way in, and start pulling the trigger at 1500 are low down, four-flushing, booger eating, scum of the earth HOes. The up side is that you can usually lead turn them and they may even be dumb enough to turn back.
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Originally posted by Stoney74
So, my question is this--is there a time--any time, when the HO is not considered bad form.
Anyone who expects that you will not shoot at him/her if you have the shot is being silly. As many have mentioned, the HO is easy to avoid (by the target) and is usually a bad choice of tactics (by the shooter). When it makes sense, take the shot and don't worry about the target's sensitive feelings if he/she is hit. But you should NOT make this your staple technique, as so many in the MA do. It puts you way behind the curve if your target knows what he/she is doing.
- oldman
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I'd HO if a guy who had all the alt wanted to. It at least gives me a 50/50 and would end the boredom of getting bored and zoomed.
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Originally posted by SuperDud
I'd HO if a guy who had all the alt wanted to. It at least gives me a 50/50 and would end the boredom of getting bored and zoomed.
Well, I worked with Stoney showing him how to counter the BnZ by turning into the attacker. Forcing nose-to-nose merges until E is equalized. Done right, you can neutralize the enemy's E advantage, creating a draw or static situation until no advantage remains.
Stoney is a fast learner...
My regards,
Widewing
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if you HO then you are a HOer... you can not qualify it by saying "I only do it when whaaa whaa whaaaa."
thats like saying "i'm not a theif.. I only steal when...."
I was laughing so hard last night in the MA .. theese jokers were defending a base and they were in "spray and pray" mode.
I looked to my low 3 oclock and a jug is trying to stand on his tail 1.5 away trying to shoot me! and sure enough there was a bunch of spitla HOers down there .:lol
... I seem to be getting better at avoiding the HO but it still makes me mad when the HO is a cherry picker too! they should cherry pick from the back ...like I do !:D
dont fly spitlas ... apparently that s@#t is contagious!
(but the blue ones are all mine):aok
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75% of the MA players will go for a co-alt, smack dead on head shot. Volumes have been written on this subject. A good stick sees the HO coming and turns the tables on the "one shot wonder"
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HOing isn't bad form per se...
Only HOing, running to turn around to HO, extending, looping around (up, down, or flat) and going for the HO again, and suicidally HOing in a direct attempt to RAM every freaking time -- THOSE are the worst form. I've seen them a lot recently.
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This is all an end result of to many new players coming in everyday and not enough people to help them figure out ACM, evasives, and basic flight.You see these new players everyday on country type askin how to do this and how to do that and someone always tells them " go out of here and go into the TA(traing Arena) and someone will tell you all of that stuff" but you see the end result in the level of gameplay in the Main Arena right now.
Help a Cadet today!
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To all of you who say "HO is bad form". I beg this question. If your in Typhoon or N1K2 or 110G or Mossie and your in a fight with a lets say...a P51, 109F, f6f or any such, do you still consider it bad form? I would think that if your in a "Heavy Hitter" ,so to speak, it would be to your tactical advantage to HO certain planetypes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it has always been in my mindset that the HO is a valid tactic if it is to your advantage. I rarely fly "heavy hitters", but on the rare occasion I up a 110, I'll HO anything dum enough to go there. Also, If a 262 gives me anything close to a HO shot I'll take it everytime, no matter what plane I'm in. HO is not a common practice of mine, but if it to my planes advantage and the other guy comes headon, I'll line up and pull that trigger. Call me a HOtard but thats my feelings on HO.
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Originally posted by Krusty
HOing isn't bad form per se...
Only HOing, running to turn around to HO, extending, looping around (up, down, or flat) and going for the HO again, and suicidally HOing in a direct attempt to RAM every freaking time -- THOSE are the worst form. I've seen them a lot recently.
Excatly.
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I think this film shows nicely how instead of doing a "HO-merge" you can already turn halve way around while the other guy tries to shoot and end up in a favorable position behind him.
The maneuver i use is dangerous, because there is a chance the enemy gets a belly shot and disables / kills me, but the resulting position is pretty nice especially if the other guy does a flat turn. But if you pull it to aggressive the other guy has a chance to pull in behind if hes verry maneuverable and kills his speed fast enough.
What i want to say is, avoiding the HO merge with a good move gives you a nice position and with that a 70/30 chance of winning, much better than the 40/40/20 chance of winning, loosing or crashing when you try to keep on the HO.
merges.ahf (http://www.slowcats.de/films/merges.ahf) .
cu schutt
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wow I just watched that film from the perspective of the LA driver and to be honest its really kinda sad that is all they can really do, I feel differently about the HOer now:lol
(shocker that a HO film would feature an LA driver)
I use that same tactic as well and as long as you dont pull too early it works fairly well especially if there is a little more horizontal seperation
(i pulled early last night on a hurricane and he came up with me ... for a little ways... it turned into a rope :aok .. i still managed to auiger before it was over tho:cry )
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My take on the HO.
You have to decide if you think it's bad form. Clearly it happens often in AH.
Lots of us had it hammered into us in AW that it was bad form. I haven't lost that. I don't HO cause it seems like bad form to me. That clearly doesn't apply to other folks and I don't expect them to fly it my way.
I'd be lying if I said it isn't frustrating at times to see guys coming head on with the wings lit up every time. I'd agree you can duck them most of the time, but clearly my 38G is a big target cause often I get that one ping from the HO even as it looks to me I'm way out of the line of fire and I end up with a smoking engine.
In the end I think you'll find the old timer ACM guys see the HO as bad form, but it's hard to say if they speak for the masses, and I'd suggest based on the MA they don't reflect popular opinion, which is to let fly with the cannons in your LA7 head on and race on by.
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Like Krusty said, there's nothing wrong with an HO as long as you're not just doing HO-run-HO-run-ad infinitum.
Schutt's film is an excellent demonstration of why HOing is often stupid. In a near co-e merge, if you begin an immelman before the pass, while the other is committed to an HO, you spoil his shot, and secure an advantage at the same time. If you come over the top and your opponent didn't do the same thing, the fight is now yours to lose. Really the only time you want to HO is when you're at a major disadvantage, such as while being bounced.
Committing to an HO when you have better options is stupid. Going through an HO without firing, and expecting your opponent to do the same is even dumber.
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Stoney, stick with WW there. He'll learn ya right:D
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HOing in an La? Stupid? yes. unheard of? no. One MUST learn how to avoid it if your not going to do it. I do not like to HO on the first pass. Allthough it does make the trigger finger itch, when in the La its better to counter the move. I feel the HO is bad form if thats all you have in your tactics arsenal. At times it may be your only option if your dueling numerous opponents alone. I dont think its bad form when you get ganged, witch is also called bad form by some.
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It just makes sense for me to head on, if that's going to be the only way to get the first shot. Once someone ends up behind me, I've usually lost the battle, although I lose much of the time in a Head On, as well. About the only time I can recover from someone getting behind me is if there's enough friendlies around to distract him at some point.
As far as ramming, I don't think I've ever done it intentionally. I have a hard time seeing the enemy a lot of times because of the video/ graphics on my laptop, that I'm stuck playing with for now. It's hard to tell when I'm getting too close and before I know it..WAM, we've collided.
I usually end up the loser in collisions, as well, so there's little point in me doing it on purpose.
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Personally 95% of HO's simply aren't. Mostly they are really front quarter shots of some kind. To me once your actually engaged there is no longer a "HO"...only energy and angles. So if one player works to get his nose around faster you can either get your nose pointed the other guys way faster or elect to evade or E fight. No question its frustrating to see the endless "pull to HO" from hurricanes nikki's etc but normally they are fighting neg E and using the hand you delt them. When ever I run into a guy who gives up his advantage to chase a bad HO I know that all I need to do to win that fight is get by his single chance. Most of the time the guy forcing the HO loses....
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I agree that HO'ing is bad form. However, If i'm in a 110 or Hurri and someone is dumb enough to HO, then I feel that it is my obligation to teach them that you never get in front of those planes.
Also if I'm being chased by 4 or 5 planes and I obviously am about to die, and some idiot gets in front of me with an HO, then I will take it. I see it happen on my side too where one or more pilots have a great gun solution on an enemies 6 and another pilot tries to steal a kill by HO'ing a pilot that will be dead soon enough. The pilot being persued should have every right to fire on a plane that is dumb enough to get in front of it.