Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: TheWobble on February 19, 2001, 09:37:00 PM
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I was just watching a bunch of people (predominantly black) burning a Confederate flag and saying that all it stands for is racism and hate, and saying it is no different than a swastika.
This brings an interesting question. The confederate flag stands for the south..way back when south had slavery..doesnet now...so does the confederate flag directly represent slavery?
if yes whats to keep from saying louisina represents slavery, texas represents slavery..? they are just as "southern" as that flag if the confed flag represents racism, well then a southern accent should too right..its southern..?
I find the biggest reason (excuse) for people who think the confederate flag should be BANNED is that they argue that it represents a army that was fighting a war for slavery.. Some people think that the sole cause of the civil war was slavery, it wasnt, in fact slavery had almost no effect on the reason to go to war. It was a miriad of other things like TAXES (mainly taxes) and the way the northern more industrialized area pushed rules on the southern area which was more farming and cattle and the likes, obviously the way things are run in a heavy industrialzed zone will differ vastly from the way things are run on a farm, washington ignored that fact and kept pushing rules and regulations on the south that made life very difficult, for instance northerners made more money than southerners in general (faremers)yet the gov decided that they have to pay the same $$ amount of tax, which to alot of southernes would consume 1/2 or more of their income, where as the more wealthy average joe in the north wasnt hit as hard.
in other words, slavery was the least of souther reasons to not agree with the north.
side note: just because the north didnt have slavery didnt mean it wasnt HEAVLY segregated, the north was just as racist as the south as far as considering "negros" as subhuman, they just didnt belive in owning the per say.
None of this is my opinion btw its just data that I learned in school and see in books/history channel..etc so no flames pls.
My personal opinion is that the flag can mean many different things to anyone, to some it may represent distrust in goverment (common southern thinking of the time) or it may represent being a rebel (rebelling as the southern states against "big brother")
to some it may represent their southern roots, and of course to saome it may remind thatm that for a time long ago the south had slaves. Well i dont think benning it is really fair because.
A: it doesnet directly represent ANYTHING accept the south.
B: the north had slaves LONG before the south did (another fact that is often ignored)
C:if everything that offended anyone was banned, there would be 2 tv channels and both would be preview giude, and everyone would have to act/look/dress/talk/think the same, because a different opinion might be "offensive"
OH and BTW when you tear down someone's flag and burn it.who is doing the Hating?
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 02-19-2001).]
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"does the confederate flag directly represent slavery"
From my experience here, every time one of those flags is in a house or as a sticker in a car, people comment "there goes a redneck"
The people have spoken (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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The Confederate Flag will always be someones symbol for something. It won't be banned because banning it would immediately result in hundreds of thousands of criminals, not to mention an encroachment upon ones constitutional right to free expression. I do understand WHY some want to have the flag banned, or removed as state flags, and my reaction to that is "GET OVER IT"..the Civil War, while not completely caused by slavery, did put an end to it at a cost of more lives lost than all the wars since combined. But most importantly, slavery has been a dead issue for over 130 years. I for one would much rather see this kind of effort put into banning the garbage that the New York Museum of Art (or whatever it's called) keeps putting on display, that stuff while called art, is nothing more than some dink artists attempt at getting attention by irritating and offending as many people as he or she can, something entirely differen't from someone hanging a confederate flag up out of pride from being southern. BUT...there goes the Constitution again, free expression is free expression.
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From my experience here, every time one of those flags is in a house or as a sticker in a car, people comment "there goes a redneck"
ROFLOL!!!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
yea that is sad but true, but does having that ugly thing make the a racist?
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garbage that the New York Museum of Art (or whatever it's called) keeps putting on display, that stuff while called art, is nothing more than some dink artists attempt at getting attention by irritating and offending as many people as he or she can,
Hey!! if I want to make a clay statue of Richard Nixon sitting on a rainbow eating a midgit and put it on display its my right!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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You are correct Wobble. Saying that the confederate flag is a symbol of slavery is an ignorant oversimplification. The southerners seceded because they viewed the federal government as too large and meddling in states' affairs too much. Slavery was just one of the issues (albeit probably one of the biggest) that they felt the federal government shouldn't have the right to control. They were for limited federal government... one that provided for national defense, mail system, and little else.
The average rebel soldier didn't own slaves. Why should Johnny Reb risk his life and fight to protect a rich landowner's right to own slaves? Confederate General Robert E. Lee freed his slaves before the war because he believed slavery was wrong (may have been another prominent rebel general, but my unreliable memory tells me it was Lee). Union General Grant continued to own slaves through the war! President Lincoln himself said he was fighting to preserve the union, and that if he could avoid fighting but keep slavery, he would have done it. He didn't issue the emancipation proclamation until 1863, 2 years into the war. And remember, this only freed the slaves in areas still part of the rebellion... northern slaves where abolition had not taken effect were still slaves.
It's too bad some $h1thead KKK losers fly the confederate flag at their rallies. I understand how that can incise the african american community and minorities (I am a Mexican-American). But c'mon, this is a historical flag... nothing more. It is no more or less evil or symbolic of slavery than the Stars and Stripes. Our nation had a long and unfortunate history of slavery, long before the civil war.
Many southerners see the Stars and Bars as a symbol not of slavery, but of a strong, independent South. People have the right to love it or hate it, but that doesn't mean we need to go around banning it or hiding it from view. Seems like a bunch of wasted energy to me when there are so many other worthy causes to pursue.
My US$0.02.
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15-20 years ago you could see lots of Confederate flags here in Finland; It was used as a sign of people listening certain type of music (Rock'a'Billy).
I saw lots of them when we were beating watermelon out of those greasy-rockers in their parties (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Now I can listen Crazy Cavan and Ray Campi without need to hide from my friends (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Ya Sancho, some folks seem to really twist the hell outta the civil war dna the flag and everything else just to suite their agenda. They take an unfortunate socal problem "slavery" and twist it into "all white peaople hate all black people" and the confed flag is our battle flag against the negros. And the whole time they keep preaCHING THE WHOLE EQUALITY THING. hOW CAN YOU EXPECT TO BE CONSIDERED "EQUAL" AS THEY PUT IT IF YOU RUN AROUND BEING A FLAG BURNING RACIST TARD! (sorry i put that in all caps, accident but too lazy to type it over.)
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I for one would much rather see this kind of effort put into banning the garbage that the New York Museum of Art (or whatever it's called) keeps putting on display, that stuff while called art, is nothing more than some dink artists attempt at getting attention by irritating and offending as many people as he or she can
Hehe - can't agree more. Me/gf went to the Tate's Modern Gallery on Saturday - 95% of the stuff is complete and utter c**p (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Seems to me in a democracy they could add a checkbox to the ballots in a state election. Simple majority rules.
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For me the Confederate Flag represents several states rebellion against the power of the Federal Government.
Right or wrong its a good thing for the people to remember.
Y
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I disagree!
If I want to have a Confederate flag on my flag poll screw what anyone else wants.(I don't by the way)
Just because someone's ancestors were slaves does not give them the right to tell me what flag I can fly.
I've never owned any slaves nor have any of these people ever been slaves so they should just get over it.
This is just more Politically Correct BS that's running rampant in our country today.
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American by birth, Southern by the grace of God.
I'm proud of my southern heritage. I dinnae if my family ever owned slaves or not, and I really dinnae care. I can't see as how it makes one bit of difference either way today, except maybe for the NAACP wanting to accuse me of trying to hold the black people back because of something I had no say in.
Too bad most of the really loud/visual "rednecks" have used the Confederate flag and given in a generally negative reputation. And I'd have to say it's the klan members who are probably most to blame for the current thinking that the Stars'n'Bars represents slavery. They love to fly it, though I dinnae think they fully understand the significance of it. IMO they could use some more schooling on the Confederate States of America.
Heard on Paul Harvey news a few days ago that Georgia is changing thier flag. He said on a 3'x5' flag the Stars'n'Bars will be the same size as a dollar bill. Going from 3/4 of the flag (state seal on a blue field was the 1/4 closest to the poll for those who've never see the 'old' GA flag) to being the size of a dollar bill is an insult IMO.
IIRC South Carolina's state flag was the Stars'n'Bars, period. Heard they changed it under pressure from the NAACP and the likes of JJ.
When all this flag changing mess started it was the topic of discussion at a party. One guy was spouting the party line of insulting his heritage with a symbol of a war over slavery. I informed him (not too politely) of my opinion about the level his idiocy had reached and told him to quit insulting MY heritage and go study that war again since he missed most of it.
It's all rediculous, but I guess the NAACP ran out of high visibility targets they can point to and say "we're doing this for OUR people" (irregardless of anyone else's heritage they may insult in the process).
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I work with two African Americans who are conservatives...they think the Conferate 'flag waving' fiasco is rediculous and as Cave stated 'just another party line for those who make money off of stirring up hate'.
My opinion is this: If it is indeed 'insulting' someone, by all means take it down...after all, those people will eventually be finding yet something else that they feel is justified for their cause, and the repetious drumbeat will begin to fall on deaf ears eventually.
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I agree. Seems like much ado about nothing. The NAACP has lost prestige by getting involved in non-issues like this where common civil rights already provide remedies.
Don't like the flag? Don't fly it. Want to burn it? By all means, burn it! (as long as its yours to burn) Don't like your local government flying it against your wishes? Vote the rascals out. Or not. Black Americans do not need the NAACP in order to assert their rights in cases like this.
The NAACP also trivializes itself by automatically attempting to apply political pressure on behalf of any black person who faces discipline with their employer and contacts the NAACP, regardless of the merits of the case. I'm not sure how their mission statement reads, but I seriously doubt that focusing on these types of non-issues further their cause.
Gunthr
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Some people are professional life-time rabble-rousers. They mostly do not care about the issues - what they need is publicity. If you yield to one of their demands in anything, it will in no way stop their activity. If anything, it will make them more loud demanding something else. May as well make a stand now.
As for the issue, no one will be allowed to have slaves, whatever banner he flies. All of us are descendants of slaves - slavery or serfdom was present everywhere at some point of history.
miko
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"All of us are descendants of slaves - slavery or serfdom was present everywhere at some point of history."
Bingo...now, are reparations in order for this generation for yester-centuries atrocities of owning slaves? You do know there are big time politically motivated groups trying to seek reparations similiar to what the Japanese got for WW2 confinements, don't you?
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I know this is kinda off-topic, but these same PC folks are trying to force the Confederate Air Force to change their name also.
I am so sick of the PC crowd telling us how we have to think and what is right and wrong.
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Sling, you and your family/friends have the power to change that, VOTE them bastiges out of office, get involved.
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heritage
(wobble - please note correct non-stereotype reinforcing spelling)
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Does a flag symbolize anything? What good are they unless they symbolize something?
Does the US flag represent freedom and the principles that this country stands for, or is it just a piece of cloth?
Does the confederate flag represent everything the South was about, or is it just a piece of cloth?
Does a flag with a swastika on it represent WWII-era Germany or is it just a piece of cloth?
To me a flag is more than just a piece of cloth, it's a symbol of something. To some people, the swastika represents the horrible evil of WWII. To some people, the confederate flag represents slavery and Civil War. To some people, the US flag represents capitalistic oppression.
People will twist thoughts and ideas and symbols into whatever suits their needs. Rather than thinking the confederate flag represents more than slavery, they will concentrate on slavery and Civil War to get their view across. Rather than realize the swastika was around long before WWII they will concentrate on the bad in order to get their point across.
In and of themselves, I don't find any of those three flags offensive. I personally only fly the US flag; I don't have any need to fly the others. If someone started flying a swastika in my neighborhood, you can bet I'd wonder about it -- even though, as I said, I don't find it offensive. It's the reasoning behind flying the flag that I wonder about. And the only reason I would wonder about it is simply because I personally don't fly flags without a reason behind it.
I just realized I didn't really say a darn thing in this post.
ramble ramble ramble yadda yadda yadda
Fury
edit: Ok here's something. What about burning the US flag on US soil? Anyone offended by that? If so, why?
[This message has been edited by Fury (edited 02-20-2001).]
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Wobble you spelled heritage wrong..
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===>Frosty
====>Exposure2k.com
=====>Frosty@exposure2k.com
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Originally posted by mrfish:
heritage
(wobble - please note correct non-stereotype reinforcing spelling)
Hehehehe ROFL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
what was the question? Oh yeah, heritage it is.
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"wobble you spelled haritage wrong"
type "Heratage" in yahoo search, ya will get over 200 sites that spell it that way..so i must blame the media for me spelling it wrong (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Ok here's something. What about burning the US flag on US soil? Anyone offended by that? If so, why?
I would be more pissed than necessarly offended per say. why?
A: you live in this country, if you hate it enough to burn its flag you have no business being here, you are just taking up space for people who actually like and deserve living here.
B: the very thing you are burning is the symbol for what guarntees your right to do so., Hence You are an idiot.
C: dont like the flag, dont like the US PISS OFF!, if its so whoopee bad that ya feel the need to burn if why dont ya get your bellybutton out, since everywhere else is sooo much better, pack yer toejam and go over there, but make sure ya take a few flags with ya to burn if ya got bored on yer plane trip....and please take Jesse Jackson with you.
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 02-20-2001).]
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I agree with wobble. In much the same way the nazi symbol really isn't about holocaust and opression, the confederate flag ain't about or associated with (this latter point being very important) racism.
Hint; look up the history of the symbol of the swastika to get my point.
I gather to some the association is as strong as it is for jews and the swastika.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"All your base/are belong to us"
http://www.thefever.com/AYB2.swf
Keep up the momentum!
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I thought that flag meant you were a cross-bred southern hillbilly !!!
slavery had nothing to do with civil war
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Slaves rightly have a case agaist slave owners. They should sue.
The only valid issue on the flag is whether it should be an official symbol of a state. Let the residents or their representatives vote.
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Originally posted by Jack55:
Slaves rightly have a case agaist slave owners. They should sue.
Ok, how many slaves are still alive in the US? (my wife doesnt count). Hell, I'll pay the legal costs for any slave in the US to sue their owners.
The point is, slavery is dead. Despite what it has come to mean in some peoples' minds, the Confederate flag is not a symbol of slavery anymore than a rowboat is a symbol of the slave trade.
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Raub, Germany still pay the descendants of the people they murdered during WWII.
It's a rather interesting question, really. Does one or does one not compensate for crimes that old?
And, is it *our*, the people currently alive, fault/who get hurt?
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"All your base/are belong to us"
http://www.thefever.com/AYB2.swf
Keep up the momentum!
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I am Northern born and bred.Family history goes back to 1600s in New England.Ancestors fought for the North in civil war.I live in So.Maryland where there is a move afoot to ban the Stars and Bars flag that that fly's over the graves of Southern P.O.W.s that died at Point Lookout P.O.W.Camp.I think the flag honors an army that fought valiently against tremendous odds and should be respected.Not many officers died in P.O.W.camps.Mostly poor farmers who did not want their state pushed around by Federal Government.State loyalty was much stronger and deeper than.Maybe five percent of Johnny Rebs owned slaves if that much.The KKK made that flag a symbol of hatred and when some people see it now they say there goes a redneck.That is major brainwashing.Since the KKK has made a burning cross a symbol of hatred now,does that mean the next target will be to ban all crosses.The American flag flew over legal slavery for years.When will it be banned ? This is all a tactic by people who have to keep their jobs and keep them by coming up with different causes to keep the pot boiling.
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Having just seen the Georgia Flag, well, PUKE!
I am not a redneck, my family was in Germany and Ireland at the time of the slave trade, and the Stars and Bars isn't even the Rebel flag (late edition last minute revision)
The flag that's flying over Texas was used as the Confederate battle standard, when's it coming down? The Florida State flag is from the Colonial Spanish period, more slavery, when's it coming down? And let's not even start on the Union Jack (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
When a minority becomes the majority, and continues to refer to itself as a minority in order to further it's own agenda, then democracy itself has left the building, and self-interest and bias are left fighting over the scraps.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Originally posted by Jack55:
Slaves rightly have a case agaist slave owners. They should sue.
Hard to sue a dead person. Last time I checked plantations, picked their cotton with machines. To hold someone accountable for something done 3, 4 or 5 generations ago is ludicrous. Live in the present, not the past...
Eagler
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"I have known and worked with racists and bigots of every color, creed, and national origin. It has been my experience that everyone of them was a self made man!"
Sure wish I could remember where I got that quote from.
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OhNooo
smile awhile
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Originally posted by StSanta:
In much the same way the nazi symbol really isn't about holocaust and opression...
How the hell could a nazi symbol not be about holocaust and oppression? What do you think nazis were? Choire boys?
Last time I re-read "Mein Kampf" which was written in 1924, It was pretty clear to me that the main goals of the party (which is an ideology-based entity, rather than a state institution) A. Hitler was creating were:
1) ridding the Germany and the world of jewish plaque;
2) instilling germans into it's rightfull place of a master race at the expence of inferior races;
If that is not holocaust and opression, I do not know what is.
Unlike modern lying and cowardly politicians, Hitler was not mincing words or leaving much to interpretation. He honestly told what he thought was needed to be done and why. He would have been the first to disagree with you on the significance of the nazi symbol.
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 02-21-2001).]
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it's part of a distrubing (but not unexpected) trend to make a living and get publicity off of past tragedies.
did you see how the offspring of jewish concentration camp survivors are suing IBM for supplying the nazis with early computer equipment?
i am sure my people were serfs at one point maybe i should see who my family's feudal lord was and sue him for being a big meany 500 years ago....or maybe i could sue the romans for invading the germanic tribes in antiquity......or maybe i could sue.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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That flag is for rednecks and a symbol of a defeated nation.
The southern states that withdrew from the Union went to war with the United States. They were defeated.
The flag representing that country should be burned and made illeagle to display in public.
I don't care what history you are trying to represent. If it is being displayed for historical reasons, the history is withdrawing from a Union and going to war. Don't care about the slavery thing, that's a whole other issue.
Question: Was there a Confederate hero who is being honored for bravery and galantry? One who selflessly saved lives of people who would have otherwise been raped, murdered, burned from their homes, etc? I don't know of any.
Burn the Confed Flag! It's a fallen country
Midnight
P.S. Otherwise I don't care one way or the other. Just my thoughts that are expressed as an open invitation for comment.
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How the hell could a nazi symbol not be about holocaust and oppression? What do you think nazis were? Choire boys?
Ok first off dingus its not called the "nazi symbol" it dates back long before the Nazis ever existed. Look it up..or wait you obviously wont.. here
The Swastika" is the oldest cross and emblem in the world. It forms a combination of four "L's" standing for Luck, Light, Love and Life. It has been found in ancient Rome, excavations in Grecian cities, on Buddhist idols, on Chinese coins dated 315 B.C., and our own Southwest Indians use it as an amulet
dont see any Jew cooking in there do ya?
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 02-21-2001).]
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That flag is for rednecks and a symbol of a defeated nation
It can mean whatever it anyone wants it to mean, you have no right to tell anyone what it means to them.
The flag representing that country should be burned and made illeagle to display in public.
.....thats just pathetic.
The southern states that withdrew from the Union went to war with the United States. They were defeated.
So i guess the german flag should be banned from being displayed in in the US..after all they LOST the war, so of course we should burn it.
I don't care what history you are trying to represent
who cares what you care about, you obviously dont care about what others think.
ITS A whoopee SYMBOL, it can symbolize different things to everyone. You are steriotyping it to a war, and to defeat, that what it means to you, to others it is a symbol of the south, or a symbol of southern prode.
Your reply is a stench of biggotry and narromindedness.
That flag is for rednecks and a symbol of a defeated nation.
You shouldent state your OPINION OF A SYMBOL as an accepted fact when its nothing more than YOUR opinionated drivel.
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 02-21-2001).]
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Originally posted by TheWobble:
C: dont like the flag, dont like the US PISS OFF!, if its so whoopee bad that ya feel the need to burn if why dont ya get your bellybutton out, since everywhere else is sooo much better, pack yer toejam and go over there, but make sure ya take a few flags with ya to burn if ya got bored on yer plane trip....and please take Jesse Jackson with you
I'd like take a moment to give what some may consider my wierd opinion on "thoughts similar" to the above quote. Wobble this is no way judgmental towards you or anyone else, just MHO.
I've spent the last 15yrs of my life in the Military living up to a contract I signed and took an oath stateing among other things, I'm willing to give my life in defense of anyone's right to burn the U.S. Flag, display a Confederate Flag, and many more things that would take a month of solid typeing to get into this message..at least.
Does watching someone burn the U.S. Flag bother me??...Your damn right it does. What makes our Nation such a great place to be is FREEDOM. The Freedom to do, say, and write things other's do not like or agree with, without fear of being jailed, tortured or executed. I do not like many of the things I'm sworn to defend, but I'm very proud that the mechanism that makes those things possible is in place, and yes, I would live up to my contract to see things remain the way they are.
SwampRat
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Now I've seen some stupid Sh@# on BB's but some of this takes the cake, So losing a war means your flag is no longer valid? It should be burned? Good, when you gonna burn yours, (oh wait, I forgot, We didn't "lose" in Nam, we had "peace with honor" and it wasn't a war) I'm getting very tired of the Redneck stereotype, especially since I've met more "rednecks" North of the Mason-Dixon line than I've ever met in the South, Look some folks use it as a symbol of hate, they aren't going to stop by you forcing a government to cave in, in fact, You oh so intellectual types, you're reinforcing their position. And for the lovely folks crying that it's a symbol of hatred and bigotry, honored only by inbred morons, well, calling us that would equate to hatred and bigotry on your part, so salute the damn flag you want to tear down.
FYI, I served my country, and served it well, I haven't the slightest clue as to why anyone would judge a man by his color, of course as an Army brat, the only color I know is green. I do know history, I do know heritage, You people can make a Golly-gee big legal deal out of an old piece of cloth from so long ago most of you don't really know what it was all about, yet you can't pay or lobby to have your government build a WWII memorial, How pathetic your self-rightous indignation on matters you know little of, and display a generous inclination towards remaining ignorant thereof.
"Greatest Nation on Earth" yeah right, when JFK was alive (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Swamp rat,
Right before I said that I said HERE IS MY OPINION
I did not state is as a fact, I just said thats what it means to me, I dont care if it means anything else to anyone else, its supposed to mean different things to everyone.
The reason I went off on midnight was because he was stiating what is obviously just his opinon in a VERY rude way and stating it as FACT, thats inconsiderate.
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Originally posted by TheWobble:
Ok first off dingus its not called the "nazi symbol" it dates back long before the Nazis ever existed. Look it up..or wait you obviously wont.. here
OK, apparently you are not trying to claim that nazi did not stand for holocaust and oppression, at least in this post of yours. If you do, you should not strain your mental facilities by reading any further.
If you look at that StSanta's sentence to which I replied, nowhere does it mention the word "swastika". Here it is: In much the same way the nazi symbol really isn't about holocaust and opression
By any definition a "nazi symbol" is a nazi symbol, be it a swastika design, flower, star, song, verse, tune, greeting gesture, NSDAP membership ticket, a historical event, a person or anything else.
I will tell you a little secret - when our species evolved from apes (or were Created), the main distinction we've got from the animals was the abstract thinking. Or, I should say, most of us have got that distiction. Some may still get it with a little education, though, so read on, The Wobble.
There is a concept of symbol and a representation and the same thing may be part of different symbols or no symbol at all. There is a general concept of a nazi symbol, there are particular nazi symbols and there are representation of a particular nazi symbols.
So not every swastika is a nazi symbol, but every nazi symbol is a nazi symbol, and hence a symbol of holocaust and oppression.
I can rightfully argue StSanta's statement without even knowing what the nazi's symbol was - purely on a semantic level (stop me if it's going over your head).
He may have been talking about "Horst Vessel" (sp) song tune or "Deuchland Uber Alles" slogan for all I care - those were known in certain cases to be used as nazi symbols too.
If we talked about swastika design, that would have been different, but we did not - StSanta and I, at least. It may be that StSanta made an error and used the words "nazi symbol" instead of "swastika design" but I repiled to what he typed in, not what he could have ment
Personally I am not distraught in the least when I see the a demonstration on the streets weaving a symbol of the finnish airforce (blue swastika), or hindu symbol of whatever, or a basket-weaving pattern or a symbol of some american-indian tribe or a one-time symbol of 42nd US southern regiment (or whatever) - gold on the red, or most of other symbols involving swastikas.
I am sure, thought, that the neo-nazi demostration waving swastikas does not use it as any of those symbols but as a nazi symbol which is a nazi symbol by definition (I do not usually find the need to repeat myself but this post is directed primarily towards TheWobble, so bear with me, guys).
Of course in our world most pople when they refer to swastika in 99.999% of the cases really mean the nazi swastika and not the other kinds.
Also, why would you presume I would not look something up if I do not know something? Oh, I know. You are one of those intolerant people who are ready to call everybody else an idiot or a dingus if they even suspect that person of contradicting his views. Doesn't matter that I just corrected StSanta on his semantics while I actually agree with his views, or with your view stated in the originating post of this thread, for that matter. But that would be expecting too much of you a - willingness to figure out the issue or even attention span to remember a previous post in the thread... Probably too much.
By the way, why did not you use the most obvious argument in your holy flag debate - before the secession attempt the southern states were a part of the current US and hence the slavery was perfectly legal in US for many years. Not only that, some slave states stayed with the Union rather then join the Confederacy and slavery was not abolished in those. What's more, when the proclamation of emancipation was issued by A. Lincoln, it freed the slaves of the Confederate states only but not the Union states. So if any flag should be burned as a symbol of slavery, it is the Stars and Stripes flag.
Of course we may also burn (or cheer) the US flag as a symbol of Oral Sex.
That is a good example of a symbol and an associated object - the same object could be perceived as a symbol of anything at all, and what can we do about it? Keep cool, try to be impartial, consider all the angles and try not to thow out a baby with the water? Well, you (TheWobble) surely do not sound like such a person so far...
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 02-22-2001).]
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Wobbly - you may admire the unlimited virtues of the swastika, but when it's black on a white background surrounded by red, it represents hate, bigotry, racism and nationalism all rolled into one.
Consider this: if it's 'just a symbol', let's see it as a signature in your next post.
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OK, apparently you are not trying to claim that nazi did not stand for holocaust and oppression
ok apparently you did NOT read anything I wrote, Im not talking about the stupid nazis im talking about the swastika. I know what the nazis did and they suck yea duh..
look yall the Swastika was orignally a symbol of good luck, the nazis ADOPTED it, the nazis did stand for hate and all that crap but just because the nazi idiots, adopted the swastika and stuck it on all their crap doesent mean that suddenly the swastika stood for everything they did..
go here and look http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html (http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.html)
The Swastika" is the oldest cross and emblem in the world. It forms a combination of four "L's" standing for Luck, Light, Love and Life. It has been found in ancient Rome, excavations in Grecian cities, on Buddhist idols, on Chinese coins dated 315 B.C., and our own Southwest Indians use it as an amulet
what part of that do you not get? it has been around practically forever, it was in existance before the first nazi's father was born. Just because the stupid bellybutton nazis decided to stick it on their flag doesent mena that the swastika stands for nazis.
nazi symbol is a nazi symbol
the swastick is NOT a Nazi symbol, if i were to put a 4 leaf clover under my name would that make it a Wobble symbol? no.
The truth is that unlsee a organization actuall CREATES a symbo its not their symbol. The american flag is a symbol of america because it was created by americans to symbolize america. same with the flag of britian.
However, the swastika has been around forever, the nazis knew it was a symbol of luck so they stuck it on everything, that in no way means that that symbol which has been around since 315 B.C. stands for all tormant and the holocaust of ww2.
While I understand that associating the swastika with holocause is a perfectly understandable thing to do (hell I do), it still isnt fair to the symbol itself. In actuallaty the swastika stands for almost all that is good, which is the major reason the nazis adopted it..kind of a propaganda.
I think I remember seeing or reading that hitler was for some reason really captivated by it but I cant be sure.
Dowding,
I wouldent put it under my name because I know that lots of people associate it with the Nazis. Which is understandable. I just think its a shame that such a noble and peaceful symbol has been raped by the nazis..like so many other things.
Wobbly - you may admire the unlimited virtues of the swastika, but when it's black on a white background surrounded by red, it represents hate, bigotry, racism and nationalism all rolled into one
(http://www.luckymojo.com/swastika.gif)
Again, dont confuse the nazi swastika and what it stands for for the orignal swastika and what it orignally stood for.
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 02-22-2001).]
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Miko, I think you might have misunderstood my sentence there. It was disguised sarcasm, and you're quite right, the *nazi symbol* is associated with the holocaust.
The nazi symbol also is a swastika that has been used for thousands of years. The nazi salute isn't really a nazi salute, but an old Roman one.
But, this doesn't matter - what matters is how it is interpreted by people. in the case of the confederate flag, it can quite easily be argued that the "heritage" that it represents is deeply offensive to descendants of the victimized groups during that era.
So I gather we see it the same way, with regards to the swastika at least.
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"All your base/are belong to us"
http://www.thefever.com/AYB2.swf
Keep up the momentum!
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Miko, I think you might have misunderstood my sentence there. It was disguised sarcasm, and you're quite right, the *nazi symbol* is associated with the holocaust.
The nazi symbol also is a swastika that has been used for thousands of years. The nazi salute isn't really a nazi salute, but an old Roman one.
I am pretty sure I understood what you wanted to say correctly and I had no argument with your point of view.
You were defending the use of swastika design rather then the use of "nazi symbol" which usurped that design, correct?
It would have sounded more semantically accurate if you said: In much the same way geometric design used in the nazi symbol by itself really isn't about holocaust and opression...
My intent was to correct your use of the words - some people may take them too literally or ignore the context. Of course people that stupid had no business being able to read, but that is public education for you...
If you somebody write "nazi symbol" I would imagine the same geometrical design as if someone said "finnish aviation symbol".
If someone says "roman salute" I would imagine the same gesture as in "nazi salute".
But in both cases the context and ideologic meaning would be quite different.
BTW, didn't roman salute involved slapping your left breast with a fist before exteding your arm?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 02-22-2001).]
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people may take them too literally or ignore the context. Of course people that stupid had no business being able to read,
LOL! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Wobbly, my man, you crack me up! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Picking up on you is like taking a candy from a baby!
Why I do that? Well, partly because I have some time to kill but primarily because I dislike inept fighters for good more then I dislike capable evil-doers.
I think that well-meaning simple-minded ignorants cause more damage then intentional villains. Most of those (sane ones) just do their part with minimal damage and in the process illustrate how bad evil is. By contrast, damage caused by well-ment stupidity is limitless. The least it does is discredit a good cause.
You may think I insinuate that you are stupid. I do suspect that. But I would settle on you being sloppy with your words. In which case I would suggest you read more and maybe take a class on technical writing. And of course respect your audience more - by reading their and your own posts more carefully.
ok apparently you did NOT read anything I wrote
It was you who did not read what was written.
Here is what StSanta said:
In much the same way the nazi symbol really isn't about holocaust and opression...
Here are your original words:
Ok first off dingus its not called the "nazi symbol" it dates back long before the Nazis ever existed. Look it up..or wait you obviously wont.. here
But it was called "nazi symbol" in the StSanta's post I referred to. So who is the dingus?
Just because nazis adopted swastika design does not mean that everyone saying "nazi symbol" refers to the general swastika. Nor should he.
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Just because the stupid bellybutton nazis decided to stick it on their flag ...
From what I know about history your avarage evil nazi was much smarter than a contemporary good guy. Just look at their record - an example of ingenuity, efficiency and perseverance. Of course it did not help the good guys that Nazis were headed by such genius as A. Hitler. He was somewhat excentric, but what genius isn't, especially the evil one.
miko
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Let me say this again. Obviously you cared not to understand what I wrote because you are being the close-minded one. This is what I mean...
The confed flag was flown in a state of war against the United States. It was in defiance of the laws and constitution that the United States Government was enforcing.
We all know who won the war. Maybe I don't know the complete history, but when was the first time the Confed flag was flown? Was it widely used BEFORE the southern states withdrew? Did it really symbolize the southern way of life?
If it did, I guess maybe there is some history in it other than defiance and treason. If it did not exist before the Civil War, or the "War of Northern Agression" as it is sometimes referred to down there, then it's only purpose is hate and war and a representation of illeagle acts.
Show me some history of the flag before the war. Otherwise, It is a symbol of a defeted nation that no longer exists and it's display in any public place should be curbed.
OK? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And like I said before, I really don't care one way or the other. It's not like I would campaign against it or be in some protest group about it. However, if it was a simple YES/NO answer on a voting ballot, I would vote to ban it. That's all.
BTW, Wobble. I don't really like the personal attack. You asked for opinions and I gave you mine and stated it was opinion only. I am about as open minded as you might see. But I can close things up if you want to get personal. Please don't.
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
13th TAS
midnight@13thtas.com
"I see you have made your decision. Now let's see you enforce it." -Brandon Lee (The Crow)
[This message has been edited by Midnight (edited 02-22-2001).]
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Here is some history for you...
http://members.tripod.com/~txscv/csa.htm (http://members.tripod.com/~txscv/csa.htm)
The flag used today was not used until 1863. That is 2 years into the war. It seems that in 1860, the southern states would use the "Bonnie Blue" as a symbol of independance.
So, the Confed flag was one used only by a nation that had formed itself through treason. It is a symbol of hate and illeagal acts. Nothing else.
I did a little further research and discovered that some Confederate money even had depictions of slavery on it. Go figure.
http://www.cwc.lsu.edu/cwc/BeyondFaceValue/index.htm (http://www.cwc.lsu.edu/cwc/BeyondFaceValue/index.htm)
There's history for you.
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
13th TAS
midnight@13thtas.com
"I see you have made your decision. Now let's see you enforce it." -Brandon Lee (The Crow)
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Originally posted by TheWobble:
The truth is that unlsee a organization actuall CREATES a symbo its not their symbol. The american flag is a symbol of america because it was created by americans to symbolize america. same with the flag of britian.
So this symbol was actually made by the Confederate States of America, right? YES
So this symbol was actually developed during the war, right? YES
So this symbol is supposed to mean whatever YOU[/i] want it to mean? How so?
THE FACT: The Confederate flag was designed by a country formed from states that withdrew from a union in the year 1861. By declaring war on the United States by attacking Fort Sumpter.
How can this symbol mean anything other than war and hate? It was developed by a warring nation. That nation was defeated. That nation's flag should go away from anything other than museums for historical purposes.
So don't tell me I am stating my opinion like it is fact. That is the facts.
One more thing.. The US flag is also a symbol of war and hate (back when it was made in the war against the British) But the US won the war, and history is written by the winner. That's life.
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
13th TAS
midnight@13thtas.com
"I see you have made your decision. Now let's see you enforce it." -Brandon Lee (The Crow)
[This message has been edited by Midnight (edited 02-22-2001).]
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Picking up on you is like taking a candy from a baby!
then why does your post do nothing to rebut mine?
So this symbol was actually made by the Confederate States of America, right? YES
So this symbol was actually developed during the war, right? YES
So this symbol is supposed to mean whatever YOU want it to mean? How so?
Was the south fighting the North because of slavery? NO
Was the flag made to represent slavery NO!
So how can
on BTW if you were quoting someone by saying nazi symbol PUT IT IN QUOTES, or put a QUOTE tag on it. Putting bolds on it means emphasis not a quote..so i am to assume that since there were no quotes and there was bolds on it that YOU were saying it, and saying it with emphasis but thats just my simple mind again...
The confed flag is a SYMBOL, a symbol of what? who knows, it means different things to everybody. just becasue some people think of slavery when they see this SYMBOL does not make it evil to everyone and that it should be banned from everyone, if you dont like it cook all of em you want, but dont try to pusy YOUR views on others by saying that just because you and yer buddies dont like it that it should be removed from socity..hell if it worked that way there wouldent be ANYTHING, every thing is offensive to someone. I think very fat women in bikins are offensive, and probably more people thaink that than think the confed flag should be banned, yet im not on sime ignorant publicity crusade to have that banned.
The confed flag represents 'treason" to YOU, and thats just fine with me, but dont state it as fact. it offends you and others but NOT everyone, if the confed flag was soo bad we wouldent be having this discussion.
bottom line:
Just becasue to SOME people a SYMBOL represents something that they dont like. DOES NOT justify having it totally banned from EVERYONE, including people who see it with pride for whatever reasons.
Ya way to go, the KKK can march in public, but dont let me see a confederate flag.
EDIT: whats odd is that You want it down for a different reason than most, I think I read You but im sorry if im wrong, but you see it as a symbol of treason right?? most see it as a symbol of slavery.
I must admit YOUR reason makes MUCH more sense than the slavery "excuse", I agree with you that to a good degree it DOES represent "treason" but I must argue that for the most part the south had a good reason for it, just because they lost the war doesent mean they were wrong.
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 02-22-2001).]
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 02-22-2001).]
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Midnight you had me till you got away from the facts.
Just because the south lost the war does not mean their flag is evil or a sign of predjudice it just means that it was the symbol of people who were fighting for their way of life. No more no less.
Midnight wrote:
So this symbol is supposed to mean whatever YOU want it to mean? How so?
Show us the facts that prove that the flag was meant to represent slavery or hate! If you can't then it means that you are trying to tell us what YOU think it should mean.
Now don't get me wrong I'm not trying to tell you you should see the flag the way I do cause I'm not.
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Its just not fair to have a symbol of any kind removed just because some people dont like it, it would be a very barren world today if it worked that way.
A symbol is called a symbol because it can mean many different things, what it means is in the eye of the beholder, and unless there is 100% agreement for what it "means" then it cant officaly mean anything, and thus should not be officaly banned....kinda like the folks that are offened by "christmas" they dont lobby for having christmas banned just becasue they dont like it...prolly because there isnt a chance in hell they could..but neve rthe less.
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INTERMISSION:
I just wanted to say to EVERYBODY, on both sides of the issue at hand that I am really enjoying this argument and to thank everyone for keeping it clean.
DING!,
on with the show!
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Mighty1... What fact did I get away from? I see you quoted a question I posed to Wobble, but where do I stray from the facts? I never said anything about prejudice or evil. I said treason and illeagal acts.
Wobble... Maybe you can see the flag/symbol as something other than defiance of established government, as can several others in the southern states. I unfortunately cannot. I could see the "southern pride" argument if it was to use the Bonnie Blue but a symbol developed during time of war shouldn't be viewed as something to be proud of.
I do not care of the slavery issue, nor will I ever. All through history people have en-slaved others. In most cases that is no longer true.
I look at the whole thing as a matter of treason and that's it. This flag, which was created during the war is a symbol of treason. How can it mean anything else?
Is there any other government that still flies a red flag with a white circle and a black swastika in it? Not that I know of.
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
13th TAS
midnight@13thtas.com
"I see you have made your decision. Now let's see you enforce it." -Brandon Lee (The Crow)
[This message has been edited by Midnight (edited 02-22-2001).]
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I could see the "southern pride" argument if it was to use the Bonnie Blue
Ya I agree, I think that one looks better anyway, but i guess ya see the one we see now so much is becasue its the most well known, why it is i dunno.
Btw, I had no intention of going into the Treason issue of the flag, I hadent even though of it, You do provide a very good point in that area.
Is there any other government that still flies a red flag with a white circle and a black swastika in it? Not that I know of.
Yup, steriotyping has pretty much killed the swastika. Its orignal good meaning will probably forever be overshadowed by what the Nazis did to it.
I wont disagree with the idea that the flag represented treason, buts hardly what it means today, many people are decendents of civil war solders and see the flag as a part of their heritage, othere just think its cool. I dont think banning it becaue it stood for treason so long ago is really a necessary, i doubt that anyone who flies it today seeis it in that light, or at least to not a very severe degree.
What bugs me and the reason for the topic was that it is being DIRECTLY linked to slavery which is very unfair. I hadent looked into the treason issue, so i cannot argue that with you, mostly because i dont disagree with that aspect of it. I disagree with banning it though, its been a long time since it flew with anything but southern pride (Or redneck pride (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ), not treason anymore..but you still make a good case.
I must admit that every time i see a confed flag sticker on a truck i think
"redneck"
especally when the truck has 5 foot tall tires and at least a inch of mud caked on it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif), i guess they are rebelling against carwashes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
btw those sites you listed were very interesting. its hard to find much decent Cival war stuff anymore
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The CS was just doing what the US had done only 100 years before, fighting for their land, and they way of life. the colonies didn't like the British rule, so they fought for their freedom to start a new nation. 100 years later, the southern part of that nation didn't like the way the north was running the show, so they did what they were taught to do.... fight for their beliefs. So our forefathers fought and died for what they thought was the right thing...... should we not honor them just because they lost the war? And if so, should we ban Mexican flags or Spanish flags?
I hate the fact that racist organizations have made the flag a symbol of hate, but I can't control that. My ancestors died for that flag, and I will honor them. I know not everyone shares my point of view, and I don't expect them to. So for that reason, I don't have a flag on my truck or any public display of the flag, but I should have the right to if I want to. To me it has nothing to do with hate, it my heritage.
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Nathan "NATEDOG" Mathieu
Art Director
HiTech Creations
-=HELLFIRE SQUAD=-
".... And on the eighth day, God created beer. "
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OK.. well check this out.. lots of info
www.civilwar.com (http://www.civilwar.com) Enjoy.
It's nice to debate. I am glad we decided not to make this ugly as so many other topics seem to get (there are a few participants that always seem to escalate more than moderate)
So be it. We see each other's points. Some are agreed, some are not. Either way it was a lively debate. I think I am done with this one.
[edit] Originally posted by Midnight:
That flag is for rednecks and a symbol of a defeated nation
BTW. I can see where my opening statement was inflamatory. My bad. I should not have used "redneck" term, as it tends to put some right into defense mode. Not good for debating.[/edit]
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
13th TAS
midnight@13thtas.com
"I see you have made your decision. Now let's see you enforce it." -Brandon Lee (The Crow)
[This message has been edited by Midnight (edited 02-22-2001).]
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"Originating in the Republic of West Florida in the early 1800's, the Bonnie Blue Flag was the unofficial first flag of the Confederacy. "
"The single star stood only for the State/Republic that the flag flew over. Keep in mind that as the Lone Star flags began to appear in late 1860 (as depicted in the article from the Charleston Mercury), that star stood only for the State it flew in. No one was even remotely thinking of a CSA back then - only seperate Republics, which is what the first seven seceeding States declared themselves upon secession. This was to avoid violating the US Constitution's prohibition of 'no two States shall enter into a compact with each other.'"
The Bonnie Blue Flag
We are a band of brothers, and native to the soil,
Fighting for our Liberty with treasure, blood and toil;
And when our rights were threaten'd, the cry rose near and far,
Hurrah for the Bonnie Blue Flag, that bears a single star!
Chorus 1
Hurrah! Hurrah! for Southern Rights, Hurrah!
Hurrah! for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star!
Hurrah! Hurrah! for Southern Rights, Hurrah!
Hurrah! for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star!
As long as the union was faithful to her trust,
Like friend and like bre-the-ren, kind were we and just;
But now when Northern treachery attempts our rights to mar,
We hoist on high the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star!
Repeat Chorus 1
First, gallant South Carolina nobly made the stand;
Then came Alabama, who took her by the hand;
Next, quickly Mississippi, Georgia and Florida,
All rais'd on high the Bonnie Blue Flag, that bears a single star!
Repeat Chorus 1
Ye men of valor, gather 'round the Banner of the Right,
Texas and fair Louisiana, join us in the fight;
Davis, our loved President, and Stephens, Statesman rare,
Now rally 'round the Bonnie Blue Flag, that bears a single star!
Repeat Chorus 1
And here's to brave Virginia! the Old Dominion State
With the young Confederacy at length has link'd her fate;
Impell'd by her example, now other States prepare
To hoist on high the Bonnie Blue Flag, that bears a single star!
Repeat Chorus 1
Then cheer boys, cheer now, raise the joyous shout;
For Arkansas and North Carolina now have both gone out;
And let another rousing cheer for Tennessee be giv'n,
The single star of the Bonnie Blue Flag has grown to be Eleven
Chorus 2
Hurrah! Hurrah! for Southern Rights, Hurrah!
Hurrah! for the Bonnie Blue Flag has gained the eleventh star!
Hurrah! Hurrah! for Southern Rights, Hurrah!
Hurrah! for the Bonnie Blue Flag has gained the eleventh star!
And here's to our Confederacy, strong we are and brave,
Like patriots of old, we'll fight our heritage to save;
And rather than submit to shame, to die we would prefer,
So cheer for the Bonnie Blue Flag that bears a single star!
Repeat Chorus 2
"This was the song that the confedrates marched to first Manassas singing. The Union marched to the tune of Dixie." (ironic?)
Isn't it odd that this country was founded by a bunch of white slave owners under the premise that all men are created equal? (Paraphrase from George Carlin)
Next they must ban the Stars and Stripes?
Why would anyone just ban a battle flag and not the national flag
Shouldn't they clean up their own house first by banning the battle flags of the 9th and 10th cavelry? <sigh>
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OhNooo
smile awhile
[This message has been edited by MrBill (edited 02-23-2001).]
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I think you letting us invade you would be a good idea.
And, it'd REALLY help your economy.
(http://wwws.us.ohio-state.edu/~steen/dk/dannebro.gif)
REALLY a lot cheaper to make a flag using only a malteser cross and some red colour (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Not to mention face paintings during national soccer games would be much easier, allowing a higher degree of pregame intoxication.
And, it has the charm of being sort of old, dating back to the 1200's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
So how about it yanks? I promise we won't upset your society TOO much (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
<starts looking in gun catalogues>
WOOHOO!
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"All your base/are belong to us"
http://www.thefever.com/AYB2.swf
Keep up the momentum!
-
well, midnight you do make a case there, with the exception of the Northern states that are allowed to keep their state colors intact in spite of an act of rebellion against a central government (Whiskey rebellion for those needing a hint)
Fact remains, Some choose the flag to remember hatred, some choose it to remember a South that was strong and independent, the destruction of which was uncalled for at that level in view of the stated objective of restoring the Union, It's been over a hundred and fifty years since federal troops burned their way across the South, and the effects of that, and the cynically termed "reconstruction" are still echoed in the South today. Is it any wonder we see this as just another attempt to eradicate our heritage?
P.S. Before accusing the South of acts against humanity in the War between the States, suggested reading would be Shelby Foote's histories of the Civil War, pay particular attention to the conduct of Federal troops during the occupation of New Orleans.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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An interesting site concerning the flag. http://members.aol.com/wildrebel/flags.html (http://members.aol.com/wildrebel/flags.html)
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Excuse me,this should be right http://members.aol.com/wlldrebel/flags.html (http://members.aol.com/wlldrebel/flags.html)
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Hell the last time i thought about burning something my wife suggested my wardrobe
been in that boat.
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Originally posted by pzvg:
The flag that's flying over Texas was used as the Confederate battle standard, when's it coming down?
This is the Confederate battle standard???
(http://www.governor.state.tx.us/Texas/images/tx-flg_mnr_dwns-1a.JPG)
I must not be that up on Civil War history. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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Originally posted by Sancho:
This is the Confederate battle standard???
I must not be that up on Civil War history. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Well maybe not "the confederate" but without a doubt "a confederate" battle standard.
http://freeweb.pdq.net/flags/flag10.htm (http://freeweb.pdq.net/flags/flag10.htm)
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OhNooo
smile awhile
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Being Canadian I can only speak from my own perception of being native to a country outside of your own. However, the very first thing that comes to my mind when I see the flag is slavery. Why keep it? What heritage are you so proud of?
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the very first thing that comes to my mind when I see the flag is slavery
because thats YOUR opinion, just becasue YOU dont like certin brand of ceral does that mean it should be put out of production?
thats the whole thing, some people dont like it, some do, some dont care. But just because SOME people dont like something is no reason to remove it from socity.
Just sit back and imagine how socity would be if every thing that offeneded more than say 100 people was banned..
let me get ya started.
Simpsons would be gone
...Hell ALL network shows would be gone.
No cars
Everyone would have to wear the same clothes
1 language for everyone that has no "bad words"
the list goes on and on and on.
thats why just banning something just because some people see it in THIER MIND as "bad" is no reason to get rid of it.
they dont like the damn flag FINE, I dont like ford escorts, but Im not marching on Washington to have them banned.
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Wobble, the same line of arguing can be used to defend having the nazi swastika up (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Not saying that you're wrong. I don't know too much about this particular issue, but I, like the Canadian chap, assosicate the flag through all those tv series about the American civil war with the Evil Slave Whippers(tm).
And i think that's the problem here, us being misguided by tv. So what are the facts?
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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"All your base/are belong to us"
http://www.thefever.com/AYB2.swf
Keep up the momentum!
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So what are the facts?
FACTS:
The Confed battle flag was a symbol for the confedearat army.
The Civial WAS NOT fought over slavery.
The confed flag was NOT created to IN ANY WAY represent/defend/symbolize slavery.
The confed flag symbolizing slavery has no historical sense to it.
Flag stood for the army, army stood for the war, the are WAS NOT about slavery. so how could the flag stand for slavery.
Swastika Facts:
The swasztika was adopted by the Nazis because it is an ancent symbol that symbolizes the 4 L's Life, Love, Light, and Luck,
NOT Germany, NOT the Nazis and certinly NOT the holocaust. I has been around since beofore the first Nazis grandfather was born.
Saying theat the confed flag represents slavery is an utter joke! The flag represented the army, the army represented the war, the war WAS NOT ABOUT SLAVERY. so how can the flag represent slavery EVEN indirectly?
of course if someone has warped enough mind and some kind of agenda they need backed they can say it means whatever they want.
[This message has been edited by TheWobble (edited 02-26-2001).]
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Originally posted by StSanta:
And i think that's the problem here, us being misguided by tv. So what are the facts?
Is not TV wunnerful (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Oh and don't forget Hollywood!
Another reason Lincoln caved on the slavery issue is that after two years the southern confederacy had not only had stayed the fight, but it was not clear that the US of A was winning. Some European countries were about to recognize the confederacy and a couple already had. Lincoln was not ready to turn the US of A into a foreign battleground. Therefore he issued the emancipation proclamation, to change the focus of the war from states rights, to a war on "some" of the people who owned slaves. It was a political ploy, and the war ended before the 13th amendment ended slavery in the US of A. It should also be noted, that although the generals formally surrendered, and the fighting stopped, the organization known as the Confederate States of America has never formally signed documents of surrender.
http://www.nps.gov/ncro/anti/emancipation.html (http://www.nps.gov/ncro/anti/emancipation.html)
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OhNooo
smile awhile
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Mr.Bill has brought up something that I forgot! and VERY important, when the war first brok out the North DIDNT even care about slavery, later they used it as a political ploy.
Notice this!
On Jan. 1, 1863, U.S. President Abraham Lincoln declared free
all slaves residing in territory in rebellion against the federal
government. This Emancipation Proclamation actually freed few
people. It did not apply to slaves in border states fighting on
the Union side; nor did it affect slaves in southern areas already
under Union control
So basically the north wasnt against slaves, they were against the SOUTH having slaves, slaves in union states WERE NOT FREE.
Lincoln had been reluctant to come to this position. A believer
in white supremacy, he initially viewed the war only in terms of
preserving the Union
There ya have it, from the President himself
THE WAR HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH SLAVES.
yet the confed flag is racist???
how friggin dilluded can a person be??
might aswell say the cival war was anti-japanise.
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The civil war was almost solely about slavery, the fighting all started when abolitionists and slavers started killing each other in riots . Particularly in the Kansas territory, the government wasn't going to grant Kansas statehood if it had slaves within it's borders . Slavery was vital to the economy of the southern states . The South saw the writing on the wall and realized that the illegalization of slavery was imminent .The southern states resistance to abolitionist and succession is why the civil war started, be wary of anyone who tells you otherwise . With the exception of high treason, the rebel flag has much in common with the flag of nazi Germany in that it represents a government that believed that some people were subhuman . I don't understand why the South would want to be remembered for the ugliest part of American history . If anyone could find the text of the Gettysburg address please post it, lest we forget .
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Originally posted by Suave1:
The civil war was almost solely about slavery,
rest deleted to save space.
And your grade in US History 101 was?? If you truly believe this, I have a library that could keep you reading for the next several years, all debunking your belief.
As you requested the Gettysberg address.
You should remember that this was penned "after" the emancipation proclamation, and before the 13th amendment, and a plea that the nation will not be divided.
Nothing in here about slavery.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) cause I always feel the need to put one, somewhere, in whatever I write.
THE GETTYSBURG ADDRESS:
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the
proposition that all men are created equal. Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation or any nation so conceived and so dedicated can long endure. We are met on a great battlefield of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of
that field as a final resting-place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and
proper that we should do this. But in a larger sense, we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground.
The brave men, living and dead who struggled here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will
little note nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living rather to be
dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here
dedicated to the great task remaining before us--that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which
they gave the last full measure of devotion--that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain, that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall
not perish from the earth.
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OhNooo
smile awhile
[This message has been edited by MrBill (edited 02-26-2001).]
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"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the
proposition that all men are created equal."
That has nothing to do with slavery ? The fighting that broke out in Kansas had nothing to do with abolitionist ? Ok, and the holocaust never happened .
Remember that the man that shot Lincoln was present when Lincoln suggested that negros should have the right to vote .
Remember the Kansas-Nebraska act, the Missouri compromise ?
It is scary that so many want to believe the lie often propagated that the civil war was not about slavery .
[This message has been edited by Suave1 (edited 02-26-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Suave1 (edited 02-26-2001).]
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Where were all these arguments when the "Dukes of Hazard" was being aired? A car named "General Lee" with a confederate flag on the roof?
DAMMIT! THAT SHOW STAYED ON THE AIR FOR 3 YEARS! WHERE WERE YOU THEN? Where were you then?<snif>
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
AKDejaVu
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The civil war was almost solely about slavery
That is such a plie of crap it doesent even warrent a good argument.
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Originally posted by Suave1:
"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty and dedicated to the
proposition that all men are created equal."
Although I am now certain that this is a fact vs opinion argument, I will close with this.
Question: How many of the men who drafted the words "all Men are created equal" owned slaves?
That has nothing to do with slavery ? The fighting that broke out in Kansas had nothing to do with abolitionist ? Ok, and the holocaust never happened .[/b]
Nowhere have I stated that the civil war had "nothing" to do with slavery! It was just "not" the primary cause of the outbreak of hostilities. Many (not all by any means) southerners had already freed their slaves, as the economics of the times made it uneconomical to retain them. There were others (again by no means all nor even the majority) who had sold their slaves. Any good book on the US economy circa 1855 to 1860 will suffice in this arena.
Abolitionist, temperest's, abortionist, whomever, when they perceive that they are not winning fast enough to suit themselves find a reason to resort to violence. Referencing the holocaust, (which has nothing to do with the current discussion) I will overlook, lest we turn this into a thread completely off the subject, another ploy of people posting opinions/beliefs not facts (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(Just my opinion)
Remember that the man that shot Lincoln was present when Lincoln suggested that negros should have the right to vote .[/b]
Remember the man who shot Gandhi, the man who shot Garfield, the man who shot whomever, nut cases have no relation to a discussion of facts, irrespective of their personal beliefs or heard voices!!
Remember the Kansas-Nebraska act, the Missouri compromise ?[/b]
Kansas-Nebraska simply gave the people of these areas the right to choose with no interference from congress, (yea right).
The fact that they chose to begin killing one another is just a testament to humankind's trend to "just kill em and let god sort it out" <sic> (again just my opinion)
It is scary that so many want to believe the lie often propagated that the civil war was not about slavery .[/b]
<sigh> Shakes head and walks away.
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OhNooo
smile awhile
[This message has been edited by MrBill (edited 02-26-2001).]
[This message has been edited by MrBill (edited 02-26-2001).]
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And Suave1 fails history.
The Emancipation proclamation was mere soppage for the abolition movement, you will note it carefully excludes Maryland, a Union Slave state, Kansas and Missouri were all about an issue, but not slavery, It was about the right for states and territories to self-determine what they would do,without being forced into choices by a central government, slavery was the catalyst for this issue, for the abolitionists knew they did not have enough local voting power to win the issue, they needed to cause enough strife and discord to force the central government to enter into the issue. Anyone who thinks a moment will realize that slavery was rapidly dying out due to peer pressure and economic factors, The South held out on the slave question because ANY retreat on ANY issue would open the door to Federal interference in state government, The allusions to the bad old South are the staple of Hollywood fiction, while slaves were still slaves and there's no getting around that fact, they neither had it as bad in most cases as Hollywood presents, nor was the kind benefactor North a pure as they have been cast, A lot of the Anti-South Pro war hysteria whipped up in the days prior to the war was generated through wealthy people who saw a war as an economic gold mine.
I already know this is a futile arguement to make to people, since most of the world has shown an amazing capacity for both self-delusion and "factgetfullness" as I call it,
but the fact remains, The South and the North went to war over the sundering of the Union, and both sides played the slave question as a trump card, but it wasn't the whole hand.
Now wake up and look at what you're saying, It's OK to blot out history if I don't care for it.
Wait until it's your history that's on the block, then tell me how wrong it is.
Be a tad late then 'tho.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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i dont believe the civil war was over slavery - from what i have read it was more about the south getting upset over burdensome trade tarriffs with northern states and an overly centralized government.(remember this was not long after the big federalist debates early in the country's history)
really, in retrospect, any good propagandist will think of some noble glowing cause to support his side, but in the end it is ususally about money and power.
most of the drafters of the constitution profited from it because they held federal securities - there is a great book on it from 1913 by some couple - the beards - i forget their first names - it is out of print now i believe and schools wouldnt dare talk about it - but like all great books exposing the truth they face extinction and ridicule-
- heh .....slavery..... the north could have cared less what the south was doing with slaves they didnt want those uppity southerners to determine their own destiny -
in communist russia they slapped some noble meaning on things and played on the easily stirred emotions and the people and they followed like lemmings - they do it in the u.s. too but nobody bothers doing the research - we are too busy waving old glory, swelling with pride and buying everything they say hook line and sinker -
except..... any good ol' southern boy knows what it looks like when a catfish has 'swallered' a hook nice and deep - thats probably why they didnt buy it and stood up for themselves - just because they lost doesn't mean they were wrong -
my guess is that slavery would have been phased out anyway even if the south had won
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Where were all these arguments when the "Dukes of Hazard" was being aired? A car named "General Lee" with a confederate flag on the roof?
DAMMIT! THAT SHOW STAYED ON THE AIR FOR 3 YEARS! WHERE WERE YOU THEN? Where were you then?<snif>
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
AKDejaVu
There was a car in that show? Couldn't get past the daisey dukes myself (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Eagler