Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: stephen on September 02, 2006, 12:43:38 PM
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Lot of people being dramatic about our use of buffs as low alt carpet bombers....so be it, but id like to add a couple ideas to make them even MORE affective in that role,,
#1 Delayd action bombs: this would allow low level penetrations into defended areas, and lower the hard deck to as little as 100ft for bomb runs, because the bomber would be well clear before the bombs burst.
#2 Para bombs/frags: for use by the b26,Havoc, Boston..{and b25 if we had em *wink*} and perhaps the adition of a speed limit when taxiing over craters, thus making pock marking runways a viable tactic.
#3 skip bombs: again I believe the B26 was known to have dropped them, and im sure that B25H's did use them in anti shipping role, this would again lower release alt and allow an attacking bomber to fly low during his egress instead of blowing massive ammounts of speed to gain minimum bomb drop alt.
wow, all fine ideas id say, and Historicaly acurate tactics...hmmmmm to bad the chances of any of them being implimented are slim and none...
any additions would be appreciated...
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Just keep rolling your lame low level suicide buffs and feed my kitty.
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thank you for your inteligent addition to the thread, the point however is to eliminate the suicide aspect of going in low lvl, that way I can sit in my tail gun and write my name in bullets on your windscreen....:aok
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Originally posted by stephen
thank you for your inteligent addition to the thread, the point however is to eliminate the suicide aspect of going in low lvl, that way I can sit in my tail gun and write my name in bullets on your windscreen....:aok
Sounds like you've been writing on the windshields of the inexperienced. If I get a ping from a tailgun when attacking buffs, it means I messed up.
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That would be OK, as long as each base was equipped with mobile and stationary Flak 88s. Manned of course. Because to be "historically Accurate" most aircraft downed during WWII were brought down by Flak.
DOH ! ! ! So much for that.
LTARsqrl <>
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Originally posted by stephen
thank you for your inteligent addition to the thread, the point however is to eliminate the suicide aspect of going in low lvl, that way I can sit in my tail gun and write my name in bullets on your windscreen....:aok
I'll HO you, blindside you, or come up from underneath. You'll be too busy exploding to "be allowed the use of your bravado". So again, keep feeding my kitty.
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Originally posted by MadSquirrel
That would be OK, as long as each base was equipped with mobile and stationary Flak 88s. Manned of course. Because to be "historically Accurate" most aircraft downed during WWII were brought down by Flak.
DOH ! ! ! So much for that.
LTARsqrl <>
Second that! Bring on the AAA so I have something to shoot after the second typhoon pass. 5" guns on the fields, then bring on your low level dweeb bombers!:aok
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Originally posted by stephen
Lot of people being dramatic about our use of buffs as low alt carpet bombers....so be it, but id like to add a couple ideas to make them even MORE affective in that role,,
#1 Delayd action bombs: this would allow low level penetrations into defended areas, and lower the hard deck to as little as 100ft for bomb runs, because the bomber would be well clear before the bombs burst.
#2 Para bombs/frags: for use by the b26,Havoc, Boston..{and b25 if we had em *wink*} and perhaps the adition of a speed limit when taxiing over craters, thus making pock marking runways a viable tactic.
#3 skip bombs: again I believe the B26 was known to have dropped them, and im sure that B25H's did use them in anti shipping role, this would again lower release alt and allow an attacking bomber to fly low during his egress instead of blowing massive ammounts of speed to gain minimum bomb drop alt.
wow, all fine ideas id say, and Historicaly acurate tactics...hmmmmm to bad the chances of any of them being implimented are slim and none...
any additions would be appreciated...
Your having a laugh right ? You trying to provoke a 4 pager thread ?
May I ask you who showed you this type of bomber tactic ?
Are you aware low level bombers are considered somewhat gamey?
AND NO TO RUNWAY DAMAGE. Seen that in another sim and all that happens is the plane spawn point gets bombed and the idiot bombee circles the cratore for proxy kills. No thanks matey.
If you would like to learn calibrated bombing look me up in the arena and i'll teach you.....Takes 10 minutes.
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Originally posted by LYNX
AND NO TO RUNWAY DAMAGE. Seen that in another sim and all that happens is the plane spawn point gets bombed and the idiot bombee circles the cratore for proxy kills. No thanks matey.
Ohh I had forgotten about those days , yeah that sucked. :(
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I think we complain about low level buffs when we see a Lancaster diving in dropping all its bombs and bailing. I could care less if it as a B26 or B25 for they were lower level alt bombers. But when you see 5 sets of 17's diving in and just pounding the hangers it can piss you off to watch them just bail.
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I agree that dive bombing b17's b24's lancs and the like should be stopped, easily accomplished by a limiter that wouldnt allow bombs to drop if the airplane is in a negative 15degree attitude, simple
and thats all that I want to hear about it, this thread DID NOT start out as a way of pushing for more dive bombing lancs, so stow your animosity.
And just what do you call A B25H? or the raids from bostons and havocs in ww2? low level is a viable/survivable tactic, and was used in WW2 as a way of gaining surprise, and doing maximum damage with minimal exposure to fire, {and my friend I know how to use a bomb site thank you very much}, I have been a party to hounding by nme ftrs in a bomber, and its never pretty, basicly if the fighter jocks can-not have a nice plump defensless bomber to pound to smitherines they arent going to be happy,
I was excited when the havoc was introduced because it meant to me that low level penetration raids where possible, now its simply a case of the wrong ord for the job, were talking MEDIUM bombers here folks, so dont get your pantys in a knot. I like the sharing of ideas, and if this became a four pager it wouldnt hurt my feelings, this game needs a kick in the but, and simple additions like the ability to carry skip bombs parafrags and the like is an attempt to get more use out of a good set of planes{b26,boston,A-20} that see little use in MA, wheeew ok hit me back.
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All I'm reading here is that you don't want to spend time to get to 18+K, where few fighters are. What your promoting is 3 x B26's ack stars, as called in other games. Just a floating gun platform.
I use b26's at around 10k rarely do I get shot down completely. Best landed air to air kills in a b26 is 7 + I porked ammo 4 fuels and barracks. Dar was already down :) Anything other than calibrated bombing in my opinion is gamey. Sorry can'ty be positive about any of your proposals.
You wanna bash a base up these planes do it well.
p38 2x 1k 10x100lb rockets
p47 " " " + 1x 500lb
p51, f6f, f4u's, mossie and the like.
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your nuts, but your singular commentment to hi alt bombing is comendable, you want to call a mission type that was actualy flown in ww2 quote:{gamey} , this leads me to believe that you are either A: misinformed
or B:........ heck I cant figure out why you might say that....I dont want to call you unintelligent because i dont believe you are Lynx, but your puting words in my mouth friend and I dont appreciate that, I have zero problem climbing,..........nvrmnd its like trying to explain to a deaf person what a bird chirp sounds like, ill get back to you and try to link a video of low level b26's and B25's dropping this {Gamey} ord as you call it.....
Nutier that a squirel **** that one....
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Fail to understand why you posted comments on this subject in one thread..then started a whole other thread on the same subject....but the matter at hand---heavies usually went at 25kish, mediums usually went at 10-15k--what alt do YOU consider low?
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There is a whole war in the Pacific being ignored here, there are multiple accounts of B25's/B26's dropping bombs on runways, industrial complexes in ww2 from low, i.e. TREE TOP LEVEL, I simply cannot understand what is so hard to grasp here, as a matter of fact I have spoken to two people that flew B24's with the ball turret removed in the Pacific theater, AND reported using DELAYD ACTION BOMBS, at LOW LEVEL which is a basic bomb given a timed fuse, I consider low level below the normal operating altitude of a fighter, i.e. tree top level, anymore questions?.,.....
This is not the same thread I DO NOT CONDONE THE USE OF HEAVYS AS DIVE BOMBERS!!!!!!!!! so stop it with this junk!!! add an inteligent reason why this shouldnt be impleminted or shut up!, fighter jocks be danged, there is historical proof of bombs being dropped below 500ft by hvy bombers, but im not asking for that, im asking for MEDIUM BOMBERS to be equipt with HISTORICALY ACCURATE ORD. i.e skip bombs {for killing cv's} parafrags {for killing ftrs taking off and damaging runways} and delayed fuse bombs {so the bomber can escape blast radius} , these reply's of how ez it is to bomb from alt have no affect on me, I am accurate from 10k and above, I would simply like the addition of HISTORICALY ACCURATE FUSING in at-least some of the medium bombers, and at the most para frags so I can make an airfield hard to take off from , LIKE IN REAL LIFE.
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I think we should be able to drop leaflets too.:aok
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here are videos relating to bombers, especialy listen to the discription of the B25, you will hear the words "low level" at-least 2 times....
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Originally posted by stephen
There is a whole war in the Pacific being ignored here, there are multiple accounts of B25's/B26's dropping bombs on runways, industrial complexes in ww2 from low, i.e. TREE TOP LEVEL, I simply cannot understand what is so hard to grasp here, as a matter of fact I have spoken to two people that flew B24's with the ball turret removed in the Pacific theater, AND reported using DELAYD ACTION BOMBS, at LOW LEVEL which is a basic bomb given a timed fuse, I consider low level below the normal operating altitude of a fighter, i.e. tree top level, anymore questions?.,.....
This is not the same thread I DO NOT CONDONE THE USE OF HEAVYS AS DIVE BOMBERS!!!!!!!!! so stop it with this junk!!! add an inteligent reason why this shouldnt be impleminted or shut up!, fighter jocks be danged, there is historical proof of bombs being dropped below 500ft by hvy bombers, but im not asking for that, im asking for MEDIUM BOMBERS to be equipt with HISTORICALY ACCURATE ORD. i.e skip bombs {for killing cv's} parafrags {for killing ftrs taking off and damaging runways} and delayed fuse bombs {so the bomber can escape blast radius} , these reply's of how ez it is to bomb from alt have no affect on me, I am accurate from 10k and above, I would simply like the addition of HISTORICALY ACCURATE FUSING in at-least some of the medium bombers, and at the most para frags so I can make an airfield hard to take off from , LIKE IN REAL LIFE.
omfg :eek: How about this: none of the things you request would do anything at all to improve gameplay or the game itself for anyone but dumb ****s who want to grief without having to work at it. These may be things that happened or were used historically, but they wouldn't add anything, and would likely find new uses that would only lessen any effect of immersion or attempt to make the game "historical".
There are plenty of things missing from this game that existed in the war. Things like planes, air defence, attrition, etc. Specialized bombs for some idiot like you to spray all over the runway so that no one else gets to play the game is the last thing this game needs.
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You didn't link anything, Shouty Spice.
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keep up the good work stephen. its hard working dedicated people like you that win resets.
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Originally posted by stephen
here are videos relating to bombers, especialy listen to the discription of the B25, you will hear the words "low level" at-least 2 times....
Was F3 view mentioned? If not historical, get rid of it.
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correct, ill link it now:http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/B-25.html
ok then.
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hey hubsonfire you fly a b26 over an nme base and tell me how ez it is then, imersion my friend.....means diffrent types of plane/ord allowing for wildly diffrent tactics... you fighter jocks want it all one way, {shuttle bombs above 10 k} what you end up with is frustrated hvy's dive bombing you for a lack of options...... if a speed limit over craters where implemented what would you lose? at the very least you would have to rudder turn off the runway, somthing which any half decent pilot can allready do... dont give me this "its unfair" junk you know that cratering runways is affective or else you wouldnt hate the idea so much, by virtue of your whining you fighter jocks are giving me ammo......
ALLOW THE B25H!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ill use the s.o.b. and so will any other bomber pilot worth his salt!!!
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Originally posted by stephen
hey hubsonfire you fly a b26 over an nme base and tell me how ez it is then, imersion my friend.....means diffrent types of plane/ord allowing for wildly diffrent tactics... you fighter jocks want it all one way, {shuttle bombs above 10 k} what you end up with is frustrated hvy's dive bombing you for a lack of options...... if a speed limit over craters where implemented what would you lose? at the very least you would have to rudder turn off the runway, somthing which any half decent pilot can allready do... dont give me this "its unfair" junk you know that cratering runways is affective or else you wouldnt hate the idea so much, by virtue of your whining you fighter jocks are giving me ammo......
ALLOW THE B25H!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ill use the s.o.b. and so will any other bomber pilot worth his salt!!!
Shattup! Use the more than ample set of planes that our wonderful game creator has given us or cancel ur $15 money order that is running 11 days late to Grapevine! Maybe learn to tank a little and enjoy what the game has to offer. Better yet, learn to fly a fighter and attempt to last more than 10 seconds after the merge with that guy SkyRock in the DA! :D
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Shouty Spice.
Oh no you di-ent
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If you think I cant rangle a fighter around in the air you are mistaken my friend, I have no problem showing you my ability in either bombing, or fighting, dont change the subject....the fact is that the fighters have had it all thier own way for TO LONG, a low level penetration should be right up your alley:)
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Originally posted by Grits
Oh no you di-ent
LOL:rofl
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Stephen I commend you for battling your post but your ideas don't fall into good game play. IF, and they won't as you originally said were implemented, would only premote dicky heads miss using your historical suggestions. Can't you see this ? Tank towns would be swomped with it.
You are not improving game play with 100ft b26's. EVERY dickyhead with a mouse will be at it. EVERY other dickyhead would be in the rear guns.
Sorry mate but your suggestion rubs every one including Strat players like me the wrong way.
There is a good plane set in here and if you wanna pork a field most can be done in 2 passes using ords. If you wanna cap a field there are plenty of fighters to use. You wanna take out the FH's bomb calibrated from alt. If you have a problem with gunning enemy fighters use "Z" and lead the shots.
Sorry once again but your suggestion, although historicaly accurate, are simply "GAMEY". Learn AH as it is.
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I think they are excellent ideas stephen.
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the 2 main things that need to be addressed i feel are
1 air defenses are to weak.high levels of ant-air made low level attacks have very high combat losses in most cases were large airfields were being attacked by low level bombers
2 in real life planes and pilots were in limited supply the RAF could not stand to lose dozens of Lancaster's for they took along time to build and suffering the kinds of losses low level attacks over Germany would have done to its fleet of aircraft
while in aces high we are given unlimited amount of lives and planes so high combat losses mean nothing which intern means that the Rooks can lose a 1000 Lancaster's today but wont affect anything so they can keep losing a 1000 Lancaster's a day but if they chose to use high alt bombing they could cutt there combat losses by a 3erd to around 250 but since loss means nothing whats the point in saving aircraft or doing any tactic to survive since there is a unlimited supply of pilots and planes always ready
the only solution involves a Restriction of some-kind which most of aces high players will not tolerate because they value there freedom to fly whatever style they wish higher then the cost of suffering issues such as this
i have many idea's to fix these types of issues but since aces high players value there freedom and choice to fly however they like whenever they want and whatever they want more then moderation and penalty for tactics deemed gamey and out of the realm of history i see no point in sharing any of my ideas or anyone else for that matter until the aces high players agree to listen to idea's of limiting playing style's to better serve the game as a hole
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The problem Stephen is, what you are suggesting was the exception, not the norm in real life. That's why Doolittles raid, Dam Busters and Polesti are so famous. They were rare and extremely risky. If what you propose would be implemented, it would become the norm and not the exception. As for the real life argument about this subject and many others on this board, you forget what a lot of airmen did in real life.....................DIED!!!
We tend to forget the convience of "dying" and then quickly turning around and reupping. Many tactics we take for granted in this game were not so pleasant in real life. They were calculated risks with many casualties. Not a consideration EVER thought through in AHII.
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Ok,
As far as history goes, he's correct. USAAC did a lot of low-level bombing with medium bombers on the deck in the Pacific. Whether or not it gets to the game, well that's a whole different gig. Personally, I'd like to see some delay fuzed bombs, especially for A-20's--IMHO...
SKIP Bombing is a technique. There aren't special "skip" bombs. It refers to making a bomb delivery while the plane is basically parallel to the deck. The trajectory of the bombs is flat--hence the term "skip". They would pitch up at the time of release and loft it into the target. And, you can do that now, without waiting, in the MA.
I put a 250 kg bomb right into the superstructure of a CV that way once.
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Originally posted by stephen
hey hubsonfire you fly a b26 over an nme base and tell me how ez it is then,
ALLOW THE B25H!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ill use the s.o.b. and so will any other bomber pilot worth his salt!!!
I have 120 kills in B26s this year. I managed this with a BAC that far exceeds my hit percentage. It is that easy.
You want realism and immersion? Have your mom shoot one of your friends the next time you lose a bomber drone flying at tree top level. The next time the lead bomber gets shot down, you catch the bullet. That's realism. Get some!
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Originally posted by Furball
keep up the good work stephen. its hard working dedicated people like you that win resets.
:rofl :cry :rofl :cry
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Stephen I agree with point 1.
delayed fuses for bombs on fighters/bombers. Could bomb a VH with a 30 second fuse fly around the field de-acking when someone ups a gv because they cant get a soft gun BOOM!
"Seen that in another sim"
what would that other sim be lynx??? out of curiosity
Bruv
~S~
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what would that other sim be lynx??? out of curiosity
It's the other one. The sim that can't be mentioned :D
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
You want realism and immersion? Have your mom shoot one of your friends the next time you lose a bomber drone flying at tree top level.
Just had a vision of him whining while pulling bits of skull from his keyboard and wiping brainmatter off his face. Im going to miss you nub.:rofl
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Someone pointed out that if we got these special ords that players would soon mis-use them. Parafrag bombs dropped from 25K over a town, auger and reup with troops, race to town and wait for the ords to nuke the town.
Come on now. Didn't they do that in WWII?
Though an interesting idea, I believe it would lead to more lazy use of Buffs and lower drops than we have now. Delayed fuze bombs would just encourage anything that could carry them to drop from 100 feet with impunity. Nope. Not in favor.
Bomb drop from F6 with 5 second delay from view to drop. Make buffs bombers again and not lawn mowers.
LTARsqrl <>
:aok
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What about Ju88?. Nobody's mentioned the Ju. If you really want to do low level or dive bombing in a decent sized bomber that is historically accurate take an 88. It was used in low level anti-shipping in the Med & airfield strikes in BoB & eastern front and I think has dive brakes modelled.
Also carries as much ord as a B17.
What's the problem?:)
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simshell,
some sort of battle managment is in order I suppose, the great green blob of doom just isnt that much fun to fly in anymore, so I find myself hanging out in areas with less action, flying missions that I come up with myself..the fact is I flew in alot of bomber missions whenever somone would up one and THAT is fun, perhaps some sort of rank structure based on kills for fighters, and destruction of nme strats for bombers, there is currently no way of taking into account the fact that this bomber pilot just killed 2 hangers, but he augerd doing it, theres no negative when it comes to dying.....as a matter of fact you get reloaded with bombs much faster if you die so the opposite is really true...in aces hi bombers that die are rewarded by getting to emediatly take off a again, and its a drag...
You guy's are all up in arms over dive bombing lancs, well how about the N1K's that come blasting in from 10k with two bombs just to kill a fields troops?.........there is so much junk going on in MA that just wouldnt fly in the real world,, like torpedo's, we know its a death sentence to up a Ju-88 and try it, but I do anyway......why? because its rare, and when you do survive you feel like a god for 30 seconds....
Im trying to see a few more cool options for bombers.. perhaps the delayed action bombs could have a 2to3 second delay, that would stop the vulching bomb trick one of you spoke of........lets see.......ok skip bombing is not as i recall where you lob a bomb in from low alt by pulling up..., it is a specific type of fuse that allows the bomb to impact the ground, bound back up into the air, then explode after a preset ammount of time/or bounces..
all this talk of shooting my dad,friends whatever when I lose a bomber is very fine for you to laugh about, but honestly if you where gonna die in real life if your plane was shot down, youd never fly,, more junk fellas, pat each other on the back, youve done a wonderful job making me look stupid, your a legend in your own minds.....HEY SIMSHELL!!! open a new thread presenting your ideas, these boys aint so tough, if everyone stopped pushing for change because they where branded as idiots, nothing would ever be any diffrent.:aok
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The JU88 is a monster at killing towns, and even if the big buffs finaly lose the ability to dive bomb, the JU will still be able, currently though if you apply the brakes in a JU88 ,in a dive, then your drones are gonna go blowing by you because for some reason they seem not to get the whole divebrake thing......l
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i dont realy push the history over gameplay aspect to much
its not that i dont care that low level was not used as much as the high level
its that a pilot can take a set of lancasters which have a amazing bombload compared to all other planes and then unleash this massive payload with lettle effort and then do it ever 10 minutes at low level
the only reason why i see you all pushing history around is as a stick to beat each other over the head with its to ether attack the crisis of powerful lazy bombers or defend the lazy bombers who use lettle effort and cause great havoc if they reach there target and keep trying 10 times in a hour
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Okay, I give up. Is this bomberpuke or one of his aliases? Giganto or Fortress perhaps? He talks about a delayed fuze as a "fix" for the "vulching bomb trick that you speak of", but he's the one who suggested parafrags for that explicit reason.
You say this is about a trading of ideas, but really, it's about you freaking out whenever anyone says your ideas are neither new nor viable in the game.
And they're not. The best fix for the idiot tactics that your ideas would promote is to not impliment them. You said it yourself, and suggested a rank/scoring setup that rewards not blowing yourself up or immediately bailing out. Such a device is already in place, multiplying your points/perks by 4 should you actually return to base and land. We can see how well such a system works in game... :rolleyes: A majority of buffs in the MA have a singular focus on the path of least resistance. Up to minimum alt to get your bombs off (something like 2 or 3 hundred feet at speed, since the bomb will travel forward enough to arm, and bail/auger/die in the blast.
All your ideas would do is increase the effectiveness of these tactics by allowing them to survive longer. Instead of salvoing all of their ord on one target, they could now strike at 2 or 3 targets on a field. They would no longer have to worry about their alt at all. Hell, they could belly in on the runway and carbomb the field. This would just not be good for HTC.
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Originally posted by stephen
The JU88 is a monster at killing towns, and even if the big buffs finaly lose the ability to dive bomb, the JU will still be able, currently though if you apply the brakes in a JU88 ,in a dive, then your drones are gonna go blowing by you because for some reason they seem not to get the whole divebrake thing......l
"So let the guilty hang, in the year of the boomerang."
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Ok now your just being silly...
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
:rolleyes: A majority of buffs in the MA have a singular focus on the path of least resistance. Up to minimum alt to get your bombs off (something like 2 or 3 hundred feet at speed
buffs at 300 feet? bring em on!.........
heck be it an osti, a8 or il2 ... easy kill.
please don't tell the masses not to bomb low alt......
i need the score padding:D
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Originally posted by soupcan
buffs at 300 feet? bring em on!.........
heck be it an osti, a8 or il2 ... easy kill.
please don't tell the masses not to bomb low alt......
i need the score padding:D
I generally can't hit them enough times in an Osti to kill a bomber.
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Two comments:
1) Skip Bombing...
Quote from "12 to 1, V Fighter Command Aces of the Pacific":
"...When using a bomb load of only one 500lb'er slung under the belly, my approach is a shallow dive at about 370mph, levelling off at around 50' and letting her go..."[P-47 pilot]
It wasn't a special bomb that allowed them to skip. The fuse was a 4-5 sec. fuse so when the bomb impacted, it didn't go off in their face. It was a GP bomb. While it may "skip" when it hits the ground, the fuse and delivery angle is what works the magic. The same technique is called "lob bombing" today. Watch some video footage of the Argentine Air Force going against the Royal Navy during the Falklands. You'll see some excellent examples of what would have been called "skip bombing" in WWII.
If you've got a different source, I'd be happy to learn something...honestly. I can provide more if you need...
2) Para-Frags...
Para-frag bombs exist to create drag on the bomb, that's it. They aren't parachutes designed to let a 250lb (or bigger) bomb "float" to the deck from 25K. All they did was slow the bomb down just enough that it impacted behind the delivery aircraft, clear of the frag pattern. Accuracy wasn't really an issue, since they were typically used to crater runways. Most delay fuzes were used for the same reason--cratering runways or allowing the aircraft to avoid its own blast. If the length of delay was limited to 5 seconds or less, it wouldn't throw game play all out of whack. Plus, you limit it to bombers that actually conducted low level hits in WWII, like the B-26, A-20, etc. I guess I'm not thinking like a Aces Quake player--I can't imagine a way to "game the game" with that type of setup...Coding it, is an altogether different issue...
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More on skip bombing...
Quote from "Valor", an article in Air Force Magazine
"Promising experiments with skip bombing were under way in the US, based on RAF experience. Lt. Gen. George Kenney, commander of Fifth Air Force, was enthusiastic about the new technique. The 63d Squadron of his 43d Bombardment Group set to work in September, testing skip bombing with B-17s against a wrecked ship in Port Moresby Harbor. Approaching the target at 200 mph, aircraft released bombs at 200 feet or lower, about 300 yards from the hulk. The bombs would skip across the water into the side of the ship--if airspeed, altitude, and range were properly coordinated. Modified Australian fuzes were used in the absence of suitable US stock."
Later in the war, these attacks were conducted primarily by medium bombers...
Do a google search for "skip bombing"...
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If you can't think of ways this could be abused, you're not thinking.
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Not trying to be difficult Hobs, but...
Honestly, I can't think of how this could be abused. What are you thinking?
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Well, let's consider the favorite pasttimes of the MA. Vulching and camping.
Swoop down, pepper the runway spawns, or the CV deck, or the GV spawn, or the PT spawn... circle and wait. With the loadouts typically carried by buffs, that's quite a lot of opportunities to vulch without having to stay in harm's way, don't you think?
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Again, I think the delay should be limited to a 5 second maximum. Just enough to let a plane clear the frag area. Also, I don't support the crater the runway idea just in case I was not clear in my earlier posts. My advocacy is for a short delay fuze for the bombs in order to allow low-level missions that don't frag the delivery plane.
I will say this--from a historical perspective, the catalyst for skip bombing was because of the total innaccuracy of level bombers hitting pin-point surface targets. Since we don't have that problem, it may be a moot argument.
My only desire for this would be for the medium bomber/attack plane mission. I've done some work on using the A-20 fast and on the deck. It works except for I have to gain altitude right before I drop to keep from fragging myself. There's still some skill involved, as the delay bomb would have to be on the target or else it would do no damage when it did go off. Its not easy judging the proper release point--I had to practice offline for a while to figure it out.
Its just an idea anyway. Just a way to expand the scope of the game I guess. I'm not hellbent for it, just support it in the sense of immersion/historical gameplay. If it imbalanced the game as it exists now, I would not be a proponent. And, I'm obviously not creative enough to understand how it would be exploited...
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I didnt even check my post but im sure I attributed the bombs ability NOT to explode on the first bounce to the fuse, I was in army ord for 4 years, and im pretty familier with the theory, though my only source on skip bombing is and old rerun of wings where they had a camera set up in the tail of a b25 and those bombs where just a bouncing...lol...... Im not refuting anything im just letting out a long winded "I know!!"
Now the dam busters where a special adaptation, however we have no current need for a dam busting bomb......I was simply trying to allowing for everyone's follow up posts, writing in here and not being thought of as a fool, or getting caught in some misspeak is tough.....I get it,...you have a nak for looking stuff up...... its been explained that parafrags would allow or the distruction of a town,,,or the destruction of planes taking off, or would hurt gameplay if craters hurt A/C, well...all im asking for is a speed limit going over those craters, which is logical anyway, and easily avoiding damage is as simple as turning off the runway, of course the craters would be repairable, and the same resup rules that apply to hangers and the like could handle a couple of speed bumps im sure...
as for the skip bombs, {or the fuses that would allow normal 500lb bombs to skiplol} well they are rather underhanded in attacking cv's....and thats why I want em, the affect of both types of bombs on the target are secondary to the fact that by virtue of the low altitude from which they can be dropped, a twin eng bomber could carry a usfull load without having to stray up into radar coverage.....sorry if this line of thought is offensive,well actualy no im not....:aok
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I totaly agree 5 seconds is more than ample to escape the blast radius of say a 500lb bomb... anything more would lend itself to missuse.
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The whole problem with this can be summed up in Success vs. Survivability. As things are now, low level pork. . . . I mean Bombing is somewhat restricted because the blast effect will kill the buffs. This tends to keep the reputable buff drivers off the deck because they want to live. But now you want to take away that deterrent.
OK, Buffs come in at tree top level over a field. There are Ostwind up. By the time enough hits are landed on the buffs to even take a wing off, they are gone off the field with maybe one or if lucky two buffs down.
Give me some 40mm Bofors or the 50mm Flak guns that will kill a buff in 1 or 2 hits or some 88mm Flak Batteries then you can promote low level buffs.
Name Date Cal. Rate of fire Ceiling in Meters
8.8-cm Flak 41 1942 88mm 20 15000
5-cm Flak 41 1941 50mm 130 9000
I don't foresee HTCs "Solution" as was posted being anything near a fix for the Bomb-N-Bail dweebs or the Dive Bombing Heavies. Special ords for these dweebs will encourage new dweebs not make game play better.
LTARsqrl <>
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My two cents on the dweebs:
Delay fuze bombs won't affect dweebs at all. Regardless of if they come in high, low, or on the deck, they will expend all and then auger/disco/bail. I've had it happen at 20K, at 2K--we've all seen it happen. It will continue to happen. HTC didn't design GV's in the game so folks could vulch a runway with a Tiger--but you can if you want to. You could make the argument that if HTC took away GV's, no one would be able to do something so unrealistic and "gamey". I personally don't think that is justification to deny folks that want to play an immersive style the ability to do so.
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Stoney & stephen
Look guys it's a VERY bad idea that your trying to promote / advocate. Every SKILL - LESS TOSSER will be in low alt bomber dropping watermelon loads of of your fan-fuugin-tasting delay bombs on hanger then ack staring or bailing. IT'S counter productive to game play ffs.:(
I (not try to be a smart arse) would hazard a guess you don't see many low level bombers on towns or hangers because your to busy doing it now. Then your trying to find a more accurate way to do this "GAMEY" crap and servive the bomb blast. :rolleyes:
Just learn to pork with ords in a P47n 75% fuel 2 x 500's 10 x rockets and dive in on enemy base from 10k.
Otherwise be patient and bomb from alt.....stop being lazy:furious
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I realise your only posting for the new folks, as you are repeating everything youve said before,allowing a fuse with a 1to 3 second delay is not going to allow anymore affective vulching of nme planes than bombing an airfield does now,
I regret you hate this so much, even though its been talked to death Lynx I would really like to know how a para-frag, a skip bomb, or a 1to 3 second delay fuse is going to upset this game so badly?
just give me a couple examples...please, heck if what im asking is a terrible idea ill admit it... of course one or two of the above ord options may not have the negative affects of the other two, be fair, take a couple minutes to explain it to me.
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Originally posted by LYNX
Stoney & stephen
I (not try to be a smart arse) would hazard a guess you don't see many low level bombers on towns or hangers because your to busy doing it now. Then your trying to find a more accurate way to do this "GAMEY" crap and servive the bomb blast. :rolleyes:
Just learn to pork with ords in a P47n 75% fuel 2 x 500's 10 x rockets and dive in on enemy base from 10k.
Otherwise be patient and bomb from alt.....stop being lazy:furious
Why is that the assumption? I guess someone can only advocate for things that will make the game easier for them? I'm a proponent because its a historically accurate tactic/armament--period. Here are some other things I'm a proponent of Lynx: only receiving perk points for landing/living, getting rid of easy calibration, wind in the MA, reducing icon range, getting rid of range on the icons, increased puffy over strats and airfields, restrictions on DAR BAR range, limitations on continuous military power, engine failures caused by too much WEP, etc. I think its a shame that its easier to sink a CV with level bombers at 8K than dive bombers coming in at 12K. Those things don't make MY game easier.
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Set the ability to bail on bombers to 15 minutes or more after a bomb drop if they are under a 5000 ft. At least it'll be awhile befire they are back...
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As I say there is nothing more I hate than seeing a P51,N1k, or other comets of death diving in from 15k, just to pork troops.
but folks do it all night long, the bombers get the attention I think because when they dive bomb its usualy to kill two or more hangers....> niether way is what I would call fair, but they are effective...medium bombers with an update to fusing and or retarded bombs,....geez I still cant make the connection bettween a dive bombing Lanc, and a Havoc with 8 500lb skip bombs....ehhh im not giving up on the idea, but I believe ive played this one all the way out... some people are resistant, pure and simple.
thanx for the positive posts/mail,
Aces High.
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I agree, we do need this stuff, especially the b25, being one of the most prevalent bombers in WWII including being in the DOLITTLE RAID also the b29 is needed.
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runway dmg would make it more realistic i think. i wouldnt mind it. as for low lvl bombers. i call them easy targets. you dotn have to climb hard to get them and you can attack form above.
i think low lvl bombing is a mistake by the bombers myself. iv noticed most bombers that try low lvl got shot to s*%t b4 they reach the target. spec if they are trying it on a base thea is well defended due to previous attacks
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Originally posted by Stoney74
Why is that the assumption? I guess someone can only advocate for things that will make the game easier for them? I'm a proponent because its a historically accurate tactic/armament--period. Here are some other things I'm a proponent of Lynx: only receiving perk points for landing/living, getting rid of easy calibration, wind in the MA, reducing icon range, getting rid of range on the icons, increased puffy over strats and airfields, restrictions on DAR BAR range, limitations on continuous military power, engine failures caused by too much WEP, etc. I think its a shame that its easier to sink a CV with level bombers at 8K than dive bombers coming in at 12K. Those things don't make MY game easier.
If all that stuff that you are a proponent of was ALREADY here then maybe I wouldn't object so much but you are advocating the easiest "GAMEY" method first.
What part of it's gamey, it's poor play, it's lazy, it's unskilled, it'll attract every IDIOT with mouse DO U NOT UNDERSTAND ? The part about "I don't care for rank / perky points. It gets the job don't it. So what if I die I'll be back in 6 min and die again, again,again". or
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oops double clicked on submit
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If you haven't the patience to spend 10-15 min grabbing to decent alt otw to target, you probably need to be playing Americas Army, or Half Life, or Quake, or whichever the hell is the most popular game for the 'instant gratification' crowd.
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the idea is to attack a vulnerable/un-defended target, and not being seen by radar, cant you get it?
I allready go in low level and kill towns that the Bish arent protecting, but with new ammo mods, ill be able to do it without the tell tail red radar dot,....sheeesh......never pull up+skip bombs=no dweeby radar:aok
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dude this isnt the idiot of the month your writing, I go in at hi alt as well, im simply looking for more tactical options, when the nme gets the hint and starts intercepting at 15k, then ill go low, you guys are confusing laziness with will to fight effectivly, get it in your head that any tactic that is used to often is flawd, 20k buff is fun, but so is 100ft in a b26 ....
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Originally posted by LYNX
So what if I die I'll be back in 6 min and die again, again,again". or
And what in the game currently keeps them from doing this now? What's the difference in coming in at 800 feet and 100 feet to these types of players? I've even seen them frag themselves now by dropping too low with the bombs we have. There was a guy on 200 one time that said "I don't have time to RTB, I'm porking" after he was challenged about dropping and augering. My only point Lynx is that it doesn't matter whether or not these bombs get in the game. The kind of gameplay that you're worried about them creating is already in the game--and I think we all can agree that its cheesy and takes away from the game.
Don't accuse us as being proponents of that type of game play just because we advocate something that those players could "take advantage of". Some of us may just want the opportunity to use other tactics to attack a base--tactics that we read about in books because someone actually used them in actual, real-life combat...