Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: nirvana on September 03, 2006, 09:28:59 PM
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I'll be 18th and I plan to buy my first real rifle. I tried a Ruger 10/22 the other day and I quite liked it, I was wonder if there were any better "starter" rifles, good quality for a relatively low price. A squaddy recommended the .17HMR.
Squaddy also recommended the Remington 870 for a first shotgun as it's really versatile.
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For the shotgun, do yourself a big favor and get someone that knows something about shotgun fit to size you up. Then buy the gun whose stock dimensions are as close as possible to what he suggested. They all work pretty well anymore but not everyone one of them will fit you well.
There's no substitute for having a shotgun that shoots where you're already looking.
As for .22's I have a bunch of 10/22's. None especially accurate though; just good plinkers. I have a Marlin 39A lever that is an absolute tack driver. "Same hole" is not an exaggeration for that gun. Most other 39's I've shot are about the same.
Fun to shoot a gun that drives tacks. ;)
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I have a 10/22 and it's a nice gun but there is another I tend to shoot more and better. That's an old Marlin .22 that was made to look like the M1 Carbine but with a tubular magazine. I've used it to take countless rabbits and a couple Coyotes. For a starter rifle stay with the .22. No it won't be quite as "fast" as the .17 but ammo is EVERYWHERE and rather inexpensive. The .22 will be very versatile and useful where the .17 won't due to the size and weight of the bullet. Later on you can go to the .17 and play with it.
I agree with Toad about the shotgun. I've had 2 pumps, a bolt action and 2 over unders. I shoot the over under. The pumps and bolt action guns are long gone because the over under fits me so well. If it doesn't fit you well you won't want to shoot it and it takes practice to shoot one well. Don't ever believe anyone who says you don't have to aim a shotgun. That's totally bogus.
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Starter rifles are for 12 year olds. Buy a .30-06. Remington 700 is a decent all around rifle, though I would point you to a WW2 vintage gun. They are still the most fun to shoot.
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I'm pretty sure you're required to own at least one Ruger 10/22 if you're an American citizen, it's just a requirement. Good gun, can't go wrong with it as a starter.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I'm pretty sure you're required to own at least one Ruger 10/22 if you're an American citizen, it's just a requirement. Good gun, can't go wrong with it as a starter.
Agree.
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I was looking at the Garands in the other thread:eek: I never realized how expensive guns were, but it beats pumping a BB gun 10 times every shot, that's how I went through 50 rounds in 10 minutes on Saturday.
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10/22s are great. Not only are they cheap and reliable, there are TONS of variants and aftermarket kits for them so you can really have some fun with variations on the same basic gun.
As a simple example, they're so cheap it's not unusual to keep one basically stock 10/22 with open sights just to keep in practice with, and have a second one with a custom trigger job, bull barrel, and a scope for light varmint hunting or more serious target practice. Any gun magazine should have a dozen or more advertisements for many many custom 10/22 parts and kits. You can even get some custom parts straight from ruger.
I have a basic stainless 10/22 with a nice 3-9x scope. It makes for a great little carry-around rifle. I also have a couple high capacity magazines that hold 30 rounds. The only thing I don't like about the 10/22 is that the rotary magazines are a bit of a pain to load. That said, there are 10/22 loading gadgets out there that make that chore easier if you start wearing a hole in your thumb loading up the 10/22 magazines.
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Mossberg 500 defenders are great shotties
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Get a single shot bolt action 22.....the disciplne involved with shooting a single shot will make you a better shot with everything.
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If money isn't a problem, try the Ruger M-77/22 or a similar high-quality bolt-action. They're more accurate than the average auto-loader, although they don't spit the lead out quickly enough for the serious plinker.
On the other hand, the Ruger 10/22 can be had in a number of tweaked versions that look great and offer more than adequate accuracy. You might want to try this one with the brown laminated-wood stock and a blued bull-barrel.
(http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/images/Products/16L.jpg)
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my Dad taught me to shoot .. first gun was a bolt action single shot Ithaca .22. Later I was able to use my grandfather's Marlin lever action .22.
I would knock down crows, sparrows, starlings ..local farmer paid us a nickel for each crow, sparrow, or starling :) .. I brought him 96 of them before he said 'enough, kid! I'll be broke if I have to keep payin you :)'
The Marlin was engraved, stock had roses carved into it, barrel the same.. was 8-side barrel and made near the turn of the century .. weighed a heck of a lot for a .22 .. had very litte recoil because of that. Accurate as the shooter was. Rear site had windage, range adjusts ..I was accurate at 100 yards with it using long rifle ammo .. if the sun was right you could see the bullet arc thru the sky :)
I returned the gun when he passed away ..think my cousin in Chicago has it now.
When the ruger 10/22 came out I bought one .. was fun to 'walk' my hat thru the air, or see how many times you could shoot a thrown tin can before it hit the ground ..or chase a squirrel thru a tree ..and 3k rounds in an afternoon was average :)
(in a safe place of course .. dead-end valley area with steep hills on 3 sides, out in the middle of nowhere, coupla miles outside of phoenix long ago)
-GE (prolly houses there now)
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The CMP garands are actually relatively inexpensive. 500 dollars for a vintage in great shape garand is a great price. Some people just clean the CMP guns up for a living and resell them for a 200-600 dollar profit.
I need to stress though, if you are actually turning 18, you need to buy a real rifle. Not a .22. You could possibly look at Marlin Lever actions, they are a blast to shoot.
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I cant vouch for a quality shotgun, just dont know em
But I love my Ruger 10/22. Its pretty much dead-on and being .22, cheap to feed.
Its also easy to clean
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I need to stress though, if you are actually turning 18, you need to buy a real rifle. Not a .22. You could possibly look at Marlin Lever actions, they are a blast to shoot.
I disagree. Depending on his skills. He will get more FUNDAMENTALS out of a 22, than moving right into a 30-06. Same goes for pistols.
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For building fundamentals, I'd suggest that inexpensive ammo is important. Short of BBs, it doesn't get much cheaper than .22.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
For building fundamentals, I'd suggest that inexpensive ammo is important. Short of BBs, it doesn't get much cheaper than .22.
:aok
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Bolt actions have always been appealing, not sure why. I don't plan on going into combat so i don't need to fire off a ton of lead at once. Finding a place to shoot around here is tough now, too much damn development.
Oh yeah, I heard the Mossberg 500 was heavy and less versatile then the 870, although it's cheaper.
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If you insist on a pump, or any other shotgun, and want versatility get one with changable choke tubes. Using the proper choke and ammunition will make it far more usefull than you think.
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Originally posted by nirvana
Bolt actions have always been appealing, not sure why. I don't plan on going into combat so i don't need to fire off a ton of lead at once. Finding a place to shoot around here is tough now, too much damn development.
Oh yeah, I heard the Mossberg 500 was heavy and less versatile then the 870, although it's cheaper.
I have a Mossberg 500 20 gauge. It's light as a feather, holds 6 rounds and with a little graphite lube will have the fastest slide this side of a benelli.
Mine's out of action now because there's a little metal tab on the end of the slide that broke from too much wear. Mine has an improved cylinder skeet barrel and has no problems shooting double/doubles on a skeet range.
Almost as fun as the 1100 youth remington I still use for an extra challenge while dove hunting.
For rifles:
You can't go wrong with a ruger 10/22 or a marlin .22 semi automatic. You'll learn the shooting mechanics and even with a stock barrel you'll hit the apple every time at 100 yards. I like to empty the gun as fast as possible and find that at 100yds i'll be 'in the ring' of a paper plate with all 18 shots.
Buy 500rd bricks of ammo on sale at places like cabelas, gander mountain or wherever there is a sale. I use Remington thunderbolt. Seems to give you a lot of shots with the least amount of fouling with anything i've shot. Plenty of knockdown power for varmints.
For those bigger varmints...I have a .270 winchester and a .300 win mag Remington.
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.22 has a more lethal range than any other gun i know of
I thought they had the highest fps?
Someone mentioned that to me, I was surprised my lowly .22 was all that
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was it the salesman? ;)
They're good guns but since I have no data with me that would be printed on the cartridge boxes I can say there are plenty of rounds faster.
For total weight of the round though with casing/powder/bullet its the most bang for the buck.
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10/22 is a great rifle, first one or not. Ammo is cheap, noise is low, virtually no recoil. But in any gun purchase, the purpose you intend for the gun is the key. If you just want a fun rifle to plink cans or shoot some targets, you can't beat the 10/22. I love shooting 500 rounds a weekend.
For more serious game, a larger rifle would be in order. Again, it depends on the purpose you need the gun for.
For shotguns, the Remington 870 is a top field gun. Today I would recommend if the extra bucks are available to consider an 1100 instead, but getting started on an 870 is a good way to go.
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Shotgun would just be for skeet/home protection. Rifle would just be for fun, popping off a few hundred rounds a weekend at the range maybe.
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Originally posted by LePaul
.22 has a more lethal range than any other gun i know of
I thought they had the highest fps?
Someone mentioned that to me, I was surprised my lowly .22 was all that
Are you talking about .22 rimfires, or centerfires such as .220Swift, .223 etc.
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.22 rimfires range from 1,000-1,700 feet/sec depending on brand, weight, etc...
.220 Swift can scream along at 4,200 feet/sec in some varmint loads.
.22-250 Rem ranges from 3,500 to 4,100 fps
.223 Rem varies from 2,750 to 3,700 fps
A mile is 5,280 feet.
What Chairboy said is darn-near gospel. I cut my trigger finger on a .22 Marlin before moving up to larger calibers and it did wonders for my shooting ability. Caliber means squat if you can't shoot with a damn. You can get a .22 or you can get a CMP Garand. The difference being, if you can't shoot worth crap using a .22 rimfire you won't spend much money. Or develop bad habits like flinching. A 500 round brick of .22 long rifle can be had for the price of two large pizzas if you eyeball ammo sales. Sometimes a sporting goods shop will need to get rid of bulk .22 LR and throw it out there dirt cheap.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
(http://www.wa-net.com/~delta6/sig/veggie.gif)
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C'mon guys. .22's are for teaching kids about shooting mechanics. And women.
Nirvana is just about to become a man, and he's definately not a woman. The lowest caliber he can go without his entire sexuality coming into question is .223 . Anything around a .30 caliber is man material.
And just so you know, the lighter the gun, the heavier the recoil. F=MA. The shotgun shell is pushing the same amount of force, no matter the gun. However, a heavier gun, means that it kicks (accelerates) less.
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So you're saying that the size of your gun controls your feelings of masculinity? Fascinating!
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Would you use a Tonka Truck to teach a contractor how to use a Front End Loader?
**** no! You sit his bellybutton down in a real Front End Loader!
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It would appear that Nirvana is just starting his shooting career.
If that is the case, a .22 is just the thing for teaching mechanics. Ammo is cheap, encouraging a lot of shooting. Recoil is absolutely nil, which removes one potential obstacle to learning proper mechanics. With a highly accurate .22, he can eliminate "the gun" as a potential cause when judging his mechanics and result accuracy.
A .22 is a great gun to use to learn to shoot. No matter age at which you begin.
I'll say this again too... 870's are cheap and reliable but if they don't fit you, you won't shoot them well. Remington stocks in general have a lot of drop; the 870 does.
Typically, Length of Pull is 14 inches, Drop (Comb) is 1 1/2 inches and Drop (Heel) is 2 1/2 inches.
Drop at comb is probably the most critical of all the factors involving fit.
It is at the point of the comb that our cheek rests while sighting. If this distance is right, then when we "spot weld" our cheek on it, our eye falls naturally in line with the sights. We can throw the gun to our shoulder for a quick shot and not have to readjust the position before firing.
It is obvious that this measurement is extremely important on a shotgun stock, or any long gun with no rear sight. The drop at comb IS the rear sight.
If the comb is too high, the eye is forced high, also, and we will tend to shoot high. To counteract this tendency, we mash our cheek too hard against the stock, trying to lower the eye. This isn't a comfortable, natural way to aim, and, in addition, will lead to our being smacked hard in the cheek from the recoil of the gun.
If the comb is too low, the eye is too low, and we will tend to shoot low. To avoid this, we find ourselves placing our cheek very lightly on the comb, or even raising our cheek off the stock a bit. Neither is good for accuracy.
The combination of your particular body dimensions , length of pull and "slope" from Drop at Comb to Drop at Heel determines where your eye will be in relation to line of sight along the top of the barrel.
If a gun fits you, when you naturally raise it to your shoulder, the comb will meet your cheek in a place that puts the eyes right on the line of sight down the barrel. It is amazingly easy to hit with such a gun.
Do yourself a favor: get fitted and research manufacturer stock dimensions. Buy something that is as close as possible to your measurements. It may cost a bit more but it is really invaluable.
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Hmm.
I'll go with my gut here, and recommend that nirvana not listen to lasersailor on anything gun related :)
Get a .22 and shoot the heck out of it. Get a .22 pistol too, when you're able to. Practice and have fun with it. Then do your research and decide if you want a more powerful gun. If you do, you should think about WHY you want a more powerful gun. Then find the gun and round that matches what you want, and then buy that one.
Buying a powerful gun just to be manly is something a gun nut or "enthusiast" does... But if you want to be a "shooter", put a little thought into it first. In the meantime, shoot the hell out of the .22 'cause they're cheap, fun, and you can learn a lot of good techniques and habits with them. Buy something bigger when you think you need one, not because somebody tries to question your manhood over the size of your gun. There's always some tool out there with a bigger gun, so the earlier you get over caliber envy the happier you'll be :)
That said, my recommendation for a nice "second rifle" is a .223. Most of them kick enough to teach you about recoil, they can be used for both light hunting and plinking since .223 ammo is cheap, and there are a lot of options out there from bolt action to autos. I have a ruger mini-14 and it's nice and rugged but it isn't very accurate. Some of the M-16 variants are much more accurate but because they look scary, some states have banned them and that means they are typically very expensive. A bolt action .223 would be a good intro to hunting rifles and a lot cheaper to practice with, but to be honest I wouldn't even hunt deer with a .223 because of the possibility of making non-lethal shots if you don't get your shot placement just right. But I have a .223 to practice with because it's loud enough and has just enough recoil to keep my natural flinching reaction completely under control, so I don't flinch when firing my real hunting rifle, a 7mm Rem Mag Browning A-Bolt.
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Toad has a good point about gun "fit", but I'll throw in the thought that even if a gun doesn't fit quite right, there are lots of custom aftermarket stocks you can get that will let you find a stock that fits you perfectly even if you can't get that perfect fit from a factory stock.
My 10-22 doesn't fit me perfectly, but I wouldn't trade it for a different gun that came from the factory with a different stock. If it mattered to me enough to change the stock, I'd just find an aftermarket stock with the right dimensions and shape and swap it out myself. Changing out a stock typically involves little more than removing a few screws, bolts, or pins, checking to see that the new stock fits right, and then bolting the new stock into place. If that's still too tough, any halfway decent gun repair shop should be able to do this in less than an hour if you don't insist on anything too advanced like glass bedding or other "accurizing" work.
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An accurate .243 Win bolt is a logical step up from the .22 if one wishes to hunt. Works great on prairie dogs thru coyotes on up to decent sized deer. Mild recoil, a pretty inherently accurate cartridge and reasonable price on ammo.
Pretty good ballistics out to about 300 yards too. 95 grain silvertips sighted on at 200 are only 1.4 high at 100, 2.5 low at 250 and 6.5 low at 300. It'll do for most deer hunting.
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I'm not a fan of pistols, mostly because i'm not as accurate with them, one thing I never understood is why you have to be 21 for a pistol but 18 for a rifle or shotgun, politicians:rolleyes: I'll keep my eyes open, still have a while to look, thanks for the advice!
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Eagl, stock fit is not as critical on a rifle because it will have either a scope or a rear sight. Your body will almost automatically compensate to line the eye up with the sights. You'll "crawl" the stock to get the eye in the right position.
A shotgun for upland/waterfowl has no rear sight at all. The stock positions the eye to be line of sight down the barrel. With no rear sight for a reference, it's much harder for the body to automatically compensate. It's hard to be "sure". So stock fit on a shotgun is much more critical than it is on a rifle.
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Agreed Toad, about stock fit on shotguns and on rifle caliber. I almost got a .243 for my first real hunting rifle, but I didn't want to own more than one hunting rifle so I went with the one gun to rule them all :) I seriously considered 30-06 but went with 7mm Rem Mag because it shoots flatter and can still take anything from varmints to Moose. Yea it's a tad light up on the Moose/Elk end of the scale, but it has the ballistics and energy to back up the claims so that's what I did. A .243 would be great for deer and the like, but you'd need a bigger gun for bigger game and I just didn't want to have to do everything twice... Two types of ammo, 2 guns to clean, 2 guns to practice with and remember bullet drop rules of thumb for, etc. It's bad enough switching from my .223 to the 7mm.
I did wimp out a bit with the 7mm, and I got a rifle equipped with Browning's "BOSS" system. It's an adjustable anti-recoil device that both reduces recoil and lets you tune barrel harmonics to enhance accuracy. I tuned it for the one round I planned on shooting the most, and from went from a 2.5" 3-shot group at 200 yards to a 1.5" 3-shot group at 200 yards. Not bad for an afternoon's worth of shooting :)
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I started on a .22 Winchester 290 auto. Then I got into shotgunning big time. Finally bought a rifle in college; a .270. Shot that at everything for about 16 years until I went elk hunting. Bought a .300 Wby for that. I've bought a few other .22's in the meantime but I still only have two personal centerfires. The .270 and .300; never found a true need for anything else. ;)
I gave my son's .22's to start and 6mm Rem Model 7's. The 7's are very early production and shoot decently but not excellently. They have, however, used them on everything up to deer sized game. They're full grown now and ready for bigger guns but they are both on the "kinda broke" side. I think guns will have to wait.
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winchester model M97 worked extremely well for me while crawling around tunnels in S.E. Asia and it can be found with a bayonet.
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After looking at them, I had my heart set on a Garand but i'm just not sure I can get my parents to go for it, plus the ammo is a bit more expensive. Basically the question now is, hardwood or synthetic?
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Originally posted by nirvana
After looking at them, I had my heart set on a Garand but i'm just not sure I can get my parents to go for it, plus the ammo is a bit more expensive. Basically the question now is, hardwood or synthetic?
Hardwood is for looks and feel, synthetic is for accuracy and weather. When a wood stock gets damp, it can warp slightly imposing a side or twisting load on the receiver and barrel, effecting accuracy.
I prefer wood, love the look and feel, but a long range working gun is best in synthetic.
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Problems with a wooden stock can be handled by scraping the barrel chanel, glassing it and sealing the wood against moisture. It takes some work but it can cure the problem of warping and still leave you with a wooden stock.