Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Halo on September 05, 2006, 12:30:21 AM
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In updating my small gun ensemble, I've come across lots of differences of opinions about armaments. Two that surprised me, but make sense when I think more about it, are these:
1. Guides carry double-barrel shotguns to protect their African safari hunters.
DOUBTFUL. I think the double-barrels are usually high-powered elephant guns or other large caliber rifles, and often so the hunter won't have to carry the heavy weapon until time to fire it. Even with slugs, shotguns don't have as much penetration in thick skinned animals as rifle bullets do.
2. Shotguns hit just about anything in their general direction because the pellets scatter so much.
MAYBE, depending on distance. For home defense ranges of 7 to 15 yards, the pellets often are still in a pretty dense cluster, more like 4 to 6 inches of spread no matter what the choke.
What are some gun myths and misconceptions that most surprise you?
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.22s aren't lethal.
I hear that one a lot. Usually in posts that make vague references to "stopping power".
Mmmkay.
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They aren't lethal if you can't shoot. :D But that goes for anything but a shotgun.
[OT]Anybody remember the 2-gauge shotgun? Was a mountain cannon turned into a shotgun. Some guy blew the $^&* out of a deer with one.[/OT]
I think my favorite myth (that isn't a myth) is the one that you can't get shot if you're underwater. The MythBusters tested it figuring it was a pile of crap until they discovered that rounds shatter when they hit the water. The bigger the gun they tried, the more the round shattered and the less distance it went. They said that if you're more than 2 feet under the water's surface, a gun can't touch you from above.
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Originally posted by OOZ662
I think my favorite myth (that isn't a myth) is the one that you can't get shot if you're underwater. The MythBusters tested it figuring it was a pile of crap until they discovered that rounds shatter when they hit the water. The bigger the gun they tried, the more the round shattered and the less distance it went. They said that if you're more than 2 feet under the water's surface, a gun can't touch you from above.
I saw that show myself.. Was suprised at how much, and how fast power was lost.
I never trust Mythbusters 100% tho (not just on this subject) as i belive they always do things the easy way and usually settles for testing a few variables when busting their myths. Its in line with the rest of Discovery Channel tho when it comes to credibility in many of the shows they air so for light entertainment Discovery is ok.
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Originally posted by Halo
What are some gun myths and misconceptions that most surprise you?
That it's impossible to miss a target with a rifle, even if it's a gazillion yards away, if the rifle has a magic black tube clamped to the top of the receiver.
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Originally posted by Halo
What are some gun myths and misconceptions that most surprise you?
Uh, well, lets see... The NRA says AK47s and other assault rifles should be legal because I might need one to hunt deer.
Care to mount that one?
P.S. I own SEVERAL weapons... None of which to I believe is a hunting weapon... Each and every one made to kill man... But I'd like to know why the NRA thinks AK47 and AR15 are made for killing game and not man.
For that matter, I'd like to know why the NRA needs to say things are for hunting game... We have a right to bear arms in the defence of the nation.. Are we under attack from the native game animals?
NRA Blows and makes gun owners look like psychos, right to bear arms is appropriate and legal..
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i once was told that a german 9mm parabellum round could travel through 5 guys. the fella prolly got the idea from indiana jones.
also, those probably arent shotguns that those safari hunters are carrying. large caliber elephant guns often came in a double barrel configuration. as were many other hunting rifles of the 19th century.
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Originally posted by SMIDSY
i once was told that a german 9mm parabellum round could travel through 5 guys. the fella prolly got the idea from indiana jones.
As the proud owner of a 1917 Luger I can tell you that you are lucky if the 9 mm will pass through the barrel of the gun... However, if it does, it packs plenty of punch on arrival... But 5 guys... I dunno.
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Originally posted by Kurt
Uh, well, lets see... The NRA says AK47s and other assault rifles should be legal because I might need one to hunt deer.
Care to mount that one?
P.S. I own SEVERAL weapons... None of which to I believe is a hunting weapon... Each and every one made to kill man... But I'd like to know why the NRA thinks AK47 and AR15 are made for killing game and not man.
For that matter, I'd like to know why the NRA needs to say things are for hunting game... We have a right to bear arms in the defence of the nation.. Are we under attack from the native game animals?
NRA Blows and makes gun owners look like psychos, right to bear arms is appropriate and legal..
The NRA publishes a hunting magazine called "American Hunter." I have not seen in this publication, nor read in any of the numerous mailings sent to me (as an NRA member), anything suggesting "assault" weapons should be used for hunting. Not once in over 25 years. So I'm calling shenanigans on that one. Feel free to set me straight by showing a link to an NRA website that states what you have claimed.
Kurt, you must have gotten your info from the Brady Campaign website, which does consider semi-auto in the same catagory as an assault weapon, based on looks of the weapon. (They refer to semi-auto as an assault weapon.) However hunting rifles do come in semi-auto versions such as the BAR, which is nothing like the WWII rifle (full auto.)
Normally the term "assault weapon" refers to full auto. I agree it is not for hunting. The terminology "assault weapon" has been greatly politicized by the anti's to mislead folks. They are refering to standard semi-autos in most instances, the only difference being that their definition of assault weapon relies on the fact some of these semi-auto variations resemble the full auto or select fire version.
Les
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OOOHH!!! OOOHHH!!!! I like the one that the Ak-47 can shoot in deep space! My friend thinks you can shoot an Ak (And only an Ak) in deep space. Um, doesnt the gunpowder need OXYGEN to ignite?!?
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Reynolds,
The powder has enough fuel and oxygen in dry form that it doesn't need any external gaseous oxygen. That's why solid fuel rockets still burn in space :)
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That if you fire a up in the air the bullets will be falling at a terminal velocity fast enough to kill somebody when they return.
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Biggest Gun Myth? How About....
"Guns Kill People"
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I lost a few bets about the underwater thing. Did quite some testing about at what depth the guns (22 and 222) would break a bottle.
10 cm easy
30 cm easy
50 cm, just the 222
1 m. bullets sank.
Then the 22.
I once fired a .22 short from an unrifled barrel into a cola bottle (small old coca cola glassbottle). The bottle rolled over, unbroken! Range was 10 yards.
Then the shotgun business.
Was comparing my russian BAIKAL 12" 70 mm vs an automatic Beretta 75mm 12 gauge. Turned out that the Baikal was puncing better at range!
Bloody automatic eats a little of the punch I guess....
Then the AH thing. Shoot a bird and break a wing. The seagulls in particular enter some kind of a flatspin...
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kurt... you are wrong about the NRA.. they defend all gunowners rights and sponsor CMP matches useing AR15's and other "assault" rifles... they defend our rights to own all fireams...
So kurt...you made the list... you are one of the silly gun myths.... "the NRA only protects hunting rifles" is a really dumb myth... and.. the 9mm para has decent penetrating power but only about average for handgun rounds. less than .357 say with the same bullets.
A really good book is "The Seven Myths of gun Control"
Another good myth is that "assault rifles" are more powerful than conventional hunting rifles... they are many times less powerful.. the weakest hunting round... the 30 30 is a little better than an Ak 47 round.
lazs
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Originally posted by Halo
1. Guides carry double-barrel shotguns to protect their African safari hunters.
DOUBTFUL. I think the double-barrels are usually high-powered elephant guns or other large caliber rifles, and often so the hunter won't have to carry the heavy weapon until time to fire it.
:D In many of Capstick`s books you will find that he carries a shotgun when going into the brush for leopard. He also has a fencing collar that has been reinforced with metal if the leopard beomes wounded.
Great reading BTW.
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Originally posted by Suave
That if you fire a up in the air the bullets will be falling at a terminal velocity fast enough to kill somebody when they return.
Mythbusters did that one too. There's evidence to show that it actually has happened before. However, all bullets shot as close to 90 degrees as possible landed sideways. Bullets fired at an angle that could maintain a ballistic trajectory were potentially lethal. The odds against it are pretty astronomical, but it has happened.
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Bullets fired in the air follow a ballistic trajectory when fired an an angle either more or less than 90 degrees from the surface of the earth. That ballistic trajectory keeps the bullet still stabilized just like an artillery round and well over "terminal velocity" for a straight up and down shot. Most of the idiots firing a gun in celebration have no clue that they round they fired at 75 degrees is going to come down capable of hurting someone.
The idea that you don't have to aim a shortgun is pure BS as well. A shot pattern from a shotgun open bored choke expands at the rate of about an inch per yard traveled. We checked that one on the range with riot guns and it holds pretty well.
If you didn't have to aim a shotgun there would be a heck of a lot of hunters who would do far better hunting birds with them. I've seen lots of misses, far too many of them mine as well.
The Kansas TAS guys and I proved that one many many times in shooting at clay pigeons at the range!
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Originally posted by eagl
Reynolds,
The powder has enough fuel and oxygen in dry form that it doesn't need any external gaseous oxygen. That's why solid fuel rockets still burn in space :)
Ummm.... NO? Solid rockets have two components, the solid rocket fuel, and liquid oxygen. They mix inside of the frame, but either way, they need to bring their own oxygen up with them.
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Ummm.... NO? Solid rockets have two components, the solid rocket fuel, and liquid oxygen. They mix inside of the frame, but either way, they need to bring their own oxygen up with them.
Do some research. Half the reason for using solid fuels is that you don't need to worry about storing liquid oxygen.
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Reynolds, Tarmac is right.
Hehem if he wasn't, it would mean that firepower of guns would actually decrease with altitude.
(Which it doesn't, - on the contrary the air resistance is less)
You don't need much research, just a little thought. When you fire a gun, where to you have the air into the cartridge to power the shot????
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Ummm.... NO? Solid rockets have two components, the solid rocket fuel, and liquid oxygen. They mix inside of the frame, but either way, they need to bring their own oxygen up with them.
That's a hybrid rocket. Solid fuel lining a combustion chamber, in which you inject either more solid fuel or a liquid fuel. The oxidizer does not have to be liquid either. Think about simple gunpowder. It's just a mixture of charcoal (fuel), sulfur (catalyst), & potassium nitrate (oxidizer).
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The NRA says AK47s and other assault rifles should be legal because I might need one to hunt deer.
I'm a life member of the NRA and I dont believe I have ever seen that in print from them.
I have seen them say they should be legal for self defense, collecting and target shooting.
I have seen them say that once we start banning various types of firearms that we would be on a *slippery slope*.
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I think they should be allowed because it is our constitutional right to keep them. That's enough.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I think they should be allowed because it is our constitutional right to keep them. That's enough.
Thats exactly what the NRA is about. Doesn't matter if you are a hunter, collector, just go *plinking* on weekends or a serious competition shooter, the NRA fights for your right to own firearms.
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Larger calibers are "better". They never look at the practicality of the weapon. I learned that the 1st time I fired a SW 9mm parabellum with a 3 and 1/2 inch barrel. Talk about a bucking bronco. There is a reason small autos fire 9 shorts and 380.
Same with rifles, "ohh but its a caliber XXX" as if thats the only issue to consider. I will never forget the 1st time I fired the .303 Enfield carbine, Yikes.
Thats been my own experience. Im sure there are many.
Btw "Elephant guns" are rifles, not shotguns. Im sure you could get by with a 12 guage slug, but the range is kinda short. Im not sure I would want to wait for the thing to get that close before I popped it.
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Same with rifles, "ohh but its a caliber XXX" as if thats the only issue to consider. I will never forget the 1st time I fired the .303 Enfield carbine, Yikes.
I put about 100 rounds through mine last weekend and found it softer on the shoulder than the much heavier M39 or K98k. Not as light as the No.1 mk4 or SMLE though. I did replace the old dried up "hardened" buttpad with a new repo unit though that probably provided a lot more recoil absorption. I also used my seperate *****pad, but I use that on all when I'm going to be shooting a hundred rounds or so.
Charon
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Hunters need ak-47 type rifles for todays modern super animals, like the electric eel, or the flying squirrel.
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AKA animals of mass destruction.
Anyhow, it doesn't matter whether it's for hunting or not. The bill of rights establishes what our rights are, and the ownership of guns is clearly spelled out. To assert that it's a collective right instead of an individual right (the main argument of most anti-gun types) is strange because that makes it the ONLY one of the bill of rights that is not individual.
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Here is my favorite.
There was a problem with the .45ACP round, and the .45 GAP was the fix.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Here is my favorite.
There was a problem with the .45ACP round, and the .45 GAP was the fix.
Nothing wrong with the .45ACP except that .45ACP frames are large unless you give up quite a bit of round count. The .45GAP allows .45ACP power in a smaller package without loosing round count. I have heard alot of positive feedback on the .45GAP and very little negative. (except from the hardcore .45ACP fanboi's who just say "why" instead valid arguments against the cartridge.)
Terror
edit for atrocious(sp?) spelling/typing.
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Glock no longer lists anything about the GAP on their site, you sure they still even make it?
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Ummm.... NO? Solid rockets have two components, the solid rocket fuel, and liquid oxygen. They mix inside of the frame, but either way, they need to bring their own oxygen up with them.
Solid rockets include the oxidizer mixed in with the propellant before hand. No external source of oxygen is required for a solid rocket to burn. But once lit, there is pretty much no way to stop it until the entire propellat grain is burned.
Ammonium Perchlorate(oxidizer) and a "rubberized" polymer binder (PBAN I think was the acronym) (catalyst/fuel) are used in the Shuttle SRB and most of the Amatuer High Power rocket motors used in the hobby today.
Hybrid Rockets are what you are describing. They use a liquid oxidizer (Nitrous Oxide is common) that is injected into a combustion chamber that is lined with a combustible fuel. The combustible fuel is varied in these type of rockets, but is usually similar to the catalyst in solid motors. The huge advantage of a hybrid is the ability to control thrust by varying the amout of oxidizer injected into the combustion chamber.
Terror
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Glock no longer lists anything about the GAP on their site, you sure they still even make it?
I don't think they have ever listed anything on the "www.glock.com" site. I don't remember the last time it was updated....
Yep, they still make it. They have the:
G37 - Standard Size
G38 - Compact
G39 - Sub-Compact
Terror
PS. I believe several other firearm manufacturers were making .45GAP chambered pistols, including Springfield and Kimber.
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Favorite gun myth: Ya can hit a person ON moving train from ANOTHER moving train...or something like that.
heard that in some old dennis hopper movie. always struck me as BS.
As for the assult rifle for hunting thing all i can say is to relate a true story:
years ago when i was nothing more than a pimply faced teenager my grandfather and great uncle (his brother) took me up to alaska to hunt.
we were up there for elk...or maybe moose (sorry its been awhile) anyways, we saw a HUGE grizzly and at the same time he saw us...and he wasnt to happy about it either, well the dumbarse guide spooked when the bear started sauntering towards us. He fired off a shot with a 30-06, hit the bear, REALLY pissed it off and the bear charged. My grandfater very clamly and cooley locked, loaded his 300mag wetherby took aim, while my great uncle put his hand on his shoulder, and called off ranged estimates at about 20yds or so my grandpappy fired killing the bear (hit right thru the left eye socket)
This whole time im skeered s**tless and i had 2 and only 2 things on my mind
A: dont pee your damn pants :O
B: wish i had a assult rifle or 30 or 50 cal machine gun (with optional tripod ofcourse)
So ya never know when a assult rifle in the wild might come in handy.
BTW my grandfather said later the reason he waited so long to take down the bear was he was really hoping the bear would change his mind and take off.
And we fired the guide :furious
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Originally posted by Terror
I don't think they have ever listed anything on the "www.glock.com" site. I don't remember the last time it was updated....
Yep, they still make it. They have the:
G37 - Standard Size
G38 - Compact
G39 - Sub-Compact
Terror
PS. I believe several other firearm manufacturers were making .45GAP chambered pistols, including Springfield and Kimber.
What are your thoughts on the .357 Sig?
And where the hell is your brother??:D
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Ummm.... NO? Solid rockets have two components, the solid rocket fuel, and liquid oxygen. They mix inside of the frame, but either way, they need to bring their own oxygen up with them.
if guns can fire underwater (they can, just not on full or semi auto), then they can fire in space, assuming the shells dont explode from the lack of air pressure.
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I got used to the 303 Jungle carbine after awhile (stock metal butt plate, army issue), but it was an early lesson that what makes a gun practical and user friendly is also a consideration, not just that it is "308", or "7mm" or whatever...
Much preffered the full size Enfiend myself. I tell ya, you appreciate gas operated battle rifles after firing an army bolt action ;)
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Originally posted by Slash27
What are your thoughts on the .357 Sig?
And where the hell is your brother??:D
I like the .357 Sig. Only shot it a few times though. Pretty healthy round. Felt alot like the 40S&W to me. Maybe a tad bit more recoil, but not much.
Terror
PS. My Bro is just chillin at home. Says he's playing alot of solitaire. Oh well.. Maybe when AH:TOD is released....
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Originally posted by Chairboy
.22s aren't lethal.
I hear that one a lot. Usually in posts that make vague references to "stopping power".
Mmmkay.
Bayonne NJ Cop told me a couple weeks ago that the 22 is the preferred weapon used in Mafia killings. (single bullet to the head)
Says cause it isnt as loud as a firecracker so few people pay any attention to the sound. And cause the round enters the skull and usually kinda bounces around on the inside scrabling the brains as it goes.
all without making the mess that lager calibre would.
Dont know how true it is.
But seems to make sense.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
AKA animals of mass destruction.
Anyhow, it doesn't matter whether it's for hunting or not. The bill of rights establishes what our rights are, and the ownership of guns is clearly spelled out. To assert that it's a collective right instead of an individual right (the main argument of most anti-gun types) is strange because that makes it the ONLY one of the bill of rights that is not individual.
Also, there was a study done in the mid to late 80's iirc by 36 scholars of the constitution. 34 of the 36 said it was an individual right, not a collective right.
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Originally posted by OOZ662
They aren't lethal if you can't shoot. :D But that goes for anything but a shotgun.
[OT]Anybody remember the 2-gauge shotgun? Was a mountain cannon turned into a shotgun. Some guy blew the $^&* out of a deer with one.[/OT]
I think my favorite myth (that isn't a myth) is the one that you can't get shot if you're underwater. The MythBusters tested it figuring it was a pile of crap until they discovered that rounds shatter when they hit the water. The bigger the gun they tried, the more the round shattered and the less distance it went. They said that if you're more than 2 feet under the water's surface, a gun can't touch you from above.
Yea but the larger question would then be.
How long can you hold your breath? ;)
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Originally posted by Halo
What are some gun myths and misconceptions that most surprise you?
0.44 magnum wont blow your head clean off
it will be messy
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Yea but the larger question would then be.
How long can you hold your breath? ;)
a man has got to know his limitations
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Bayonne NJ Cop told me a couple weeks ago that the 22 is the preferred weapon used in Mafia killings. (single bullet to the head)
Says cause it isnt as loud as a firecracker so few people pay any attention to the sound. And cause the round enters the skull and usually kinda bounces around on the inside scrabling the brains as it goes.
all without making the mess that lager calibre would.
Dont know how true it is.
But seems to make sense.
Very true. .22 caliber is the most popular caliber out of all rounds, pistol or rifle. It's very easy to buy subsonic rounds for absolute low prices. Add onto that the idea that .22 caliber guns are the most popular. While bullet stamping never worked, each gun leaves a particular marking on a bullet.
So the best thing to do is to use the most popular bullet, with the most popular gun with the ease of getting rid of ammo and gun.
Not to mention the ease of silencer manufacturing, you'll have an absolute silent untrackable gun.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Bayonne NJ Cop told me a couple weeks ago that the 22 is the preferred weapon used in Mafia killings. (single bullet to the head)
Says cause it isnt as loud as a firecracker so few people pay any attention to the sound. And cause the round enters the skull and usually kinda bounces around on the inside scrabling the brains as it goes.
all without making the mess that lager calibre would.
Dont know how true it is.
But seems to make sense.
Yeah its true. My old man used to be in the security business, was even licensed to carry a pistol (rear in NZ). He used to get some interesting security mags. One of the other interesting aspects of the use of .22's for killings was that the entry wound they leave was extremely small, sometimes very hard to spot. They showed pictures of guys that had been shot just behind the ear where the coroner had missed the entry wound on the first look. Spose it gives the killer a bit more room to exit the scene.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Very true. .22 caliber is the most popular caliber out of all rounds, pistol or rifle. It's very easy to buy subsonic rounds for absolute low prices. Add onto that the idea that .22 caliber guns are the most popular. While bullet stamping never worked, each gun leaves a particular marking on a bullet.
So the best thing to do is to use the most popular bullet, with the most popular gun with the ease of getting rid of ammo and gun.
Not to mention the ease of silencer manufacturing, you'll have an absolute silent untrackable gun.
..or police your brass:
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=119933
What are your thoughts on the .357 Sig?
Nice round, shoots flatter than the .40. At least it seems so. Friggin expensive though. I got the .357 barrel for my p226. Went back to the .40 just because it didn't seem *that* different. Secret Service swears by 'em, though.
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.22 is preferred for slaughter. Well it's cheap, silent, and not to dangerous.
(Like shooting your foot through a bull's head)
And you can drop a bull with it if you know what you're doing.
(However that means a maximum load, which is normally just about supersonic, and .22 Magnum is very much safer)
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That being the biggest POS brass catcher you can buy. Most brass catchers damn near fit onto the reciever openings.
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i guess Reynolds is still researching solid fuel rockets ....while your at it decifer under water Flares for me too .. :D
Oh yea some of mythbusters stuff need boots .
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Originally posted by Roscoroo
i guess Reynolds is still researching solid fuel rockets ....while your at it decifer under water Flares for me too .. :D
The propellant mixture in each Shuttle SRB motor consists of an ammonium perchlorate (oxidizer, 69.6 percent by weight), aluminum (fuel, 16 percent), iron oxide (a catalyst, 0.4 percent), a polymer (a binder that holds the mixture together, 12.04 percent), and an epoxy curing agent (1.96 percent). The propellant is an 11-point star-shaped perforation in the forward motor segment and a double-truncated-cone perforation in each of the aft segments and aft closure. This configuration provides high thrust at ignition and then reduces the thrust by approximately one third at about 50 seconds after lift-off to prevent overstressing the vehicle during maximum dynamic pressure.
Fuel, oxidizer, polymer, and catalyst are mixed together into a rubbery consistancy and molded into the SRB shell.
(http://wut2c.com/Countries/USA/States%20and%20territories/Florida/NASA/Photos/Solid%20rocket%20preparation.jpg)
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Ammunition does contain oxidizers. Military ammunition in particular is also sealed at the bullet / case location as well as the primer seat against moisture which would prevent the loss of air captured at the time of manufacture. Even if the load is underpowered compared to being fired in an atmosphere containing oxygen it will have no resitance from air as the bullet flies towards the target making it more effective than it might be on the earth. Given the fact that everyone in space needs to have a sealed environment to survive, merely putting a small hole in an opponent's suit will effectively render them combat ineffective same as shooting them dead center in the chest. The biggest problem I see in shooting a gun in space will be one of Newton's law of equal and opposite reactions. If the shooter is not braced they will be affected by the recoil.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
That being the biggest POS brass catcher you can buy. Most brass catchers damn near fit onto the reciever openings.
I await your contribution of a good brass catcher for a Ruger Mk2.
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A pair of pantyhose are better then those fish nets.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
A pair of pantyhose are better then those fish nets.
I await your contribution of a good brass catcher for a Ruger Mk2.