Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Furball on September 05, 2006, 01:48:38 PM
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Bring it to AH :)
(http://www.flightglobal.com/ImageArchive/PhotoArchive/1939-1945/previews/fa_18470s.jpg)
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That's one beautifull Mosquito! What version is it? And are those 20mm's?
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Westland Whirlwind?
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Originally posted by frank3
That's one beautifull Mosquito! What version is it? And are those 20mm's?
That isn't a Mosquito.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Panzzer
Westland Whirlwind?
Give the man a ceeee-garrrr!!
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Bigger PW magnet than the P38 and the Mossie combined, if they ever add it to AH.
click me to see pilot position (http://www.flightglobal.com/ImageArchive/PhotoArchive/1939-1945/fa_18165s.aspx)
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Westland Whirlwind
that thing had 4x20mm in the nose, 1K of bombs, a speed of 360mph at 14K
Despite the correct speed on level, a twin V12 of 885hp each seems a little weak to me and it may climb badly...there was 114 built, they saw combat between 1940 and 1943 and got replaced by the Beaufighter at this time.
Would still be a fun ride but quite useless compared to typhoons or mosquitos
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The entire project was plagued with engine problems. That is why they were so few in number and so quickly replaced.
In AH these engine problems would be translated into de-rated engines (like the Ki84 was, I believe).
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The Kestrel engines it had were over boosted engines of the generation before the Merlin. They simply couldn't take the strain and had a horrible reliability record in service.
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I've read it was the discontinuation of the Peregrine engine that was cause of the cancelation of the Whirlwind, not any engine trouble, but since the Vulture was kind of a double Peregrine, that could be wrong...
...In AH against contemporary birds , the Whirlwind would OWN OWN OWN fighters, buffs & GVs.
OWN
:O :O :O :O :O :O :O
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Bah. Peregrin, you are right. I was writing that off of old memory.
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very advanced design for its time, check out the radiators in the leading edges and the bubble canopy.
that thing was screaming out for a couple of merlins - unfortunately they were never fitted.
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It did look like a Mosquito from that angle though!
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Originally posted by Furball
very advanced design for its time, check out the radiators in the leading edges and the bubble canopy.
that thing was screaming out for a couple of merlins - unfortunately they were never fitted.
iirc think they were in a sucessor plane, but the design ran into low critical Mach number trouble at high alts & speeds so i guess it probably had even worse trans-sonic troubles that the P-38...checking M.A.D. (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/db/)...Westland Welkin...google for image...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Westland_Welkin.jpg)
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Would be rather a hangar queen IMHO, but yet...not.
4 Hizookas in the nose of something that handles well is something. Would outturn the 110 I guess, and although slower than the Mossie, it's not THAT slow.
But little ammo load yes?
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The ammo load is light.
Four Hispano Mk Is with 60 rounds per gun.
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Originally posted by Debonair
iirc think they were in a sucessor plane, but the design ran into low critical Mach number trouble at high alts & speeds so i guess it probably had even worse trans-sonic troubles that the P-38...
The Welkin was a very high altitude interceptor based on the fueselage of the Whirlwind. The Whirlwind was a low altitude attack aircraft.
Very different aeroplanes.
The Whilrwind first flew in 1938, and was very fast at low alt (Around 360 mph) when the RAF's other front line fighter the Hurricane was managing 330 mph or something.
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Fast down low + agile + 4 nose mounted Hizookas = NOT hangar queen I guess ;)
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Originally posted by Karnak
The ammo load is light.
Four Hispano Mk Is with 60 rounds per gun.
Would probably be enough for dogfighting, but not for strafing/buff-hunting
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I read somewhere the reason merlins were never tried is the airframe was to weak to take the strain.
Anyone else hear that?
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Hi Furball,
>The Whilrwind first flew in 1938, and was very fast at low alt (Around 360 mph) when the RAF's other front line fighter the Hurricane was managing 330 mph or something.
Here is a short analysis of Whirlwind performance I prepared a while back. Lacking good data, I had to guess some parameters, so this is no high-fidelity stuff:
http://hometown.aol.de/HoHunKhan/Whirlwind_Speed.png
http://hometown.aol.de/HoHunKhan/Whirlwind_Climb.png
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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that's cool, thanks for that HoHun :)
surprisingly good climbrate, 3,000+ fpm up to 4,000m
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Hi Furball,
>surprisingly good climbrate, 3,000+ fpm up to 4,000m
Roger that, the Peregrine engine combined with a compact and light airframe really paid off there :-)
I updated the graphs to show the Whirlwind's German counterpart, too:
http://hometown.aol.de/HoHunKhan/Whirlwind_Speed.png
http://hometown.aol.de/HoHunKhan/Whirlwind_Climb.png
As you can see, the Whirlwind easily out-performed the Fw 187A-0 powered by a Jumo 210, an engine of the same generation as the Peregrine (though closer to the older Kestrel in power).
This is a reflection of the design philosophy of the two aircraft: The Whirlwind was really designed for the Kestrel/Peregrine class engines, and the Fw 187 was meant for the DB600/DB601 class engines that were new back then.
Though Whirlwind and Fw 187 look suprisingly similar at first sight, the Whirlwind is in fact a lot smaller, with about 2 m less wingspan and just 75% of the Fw 187's wing area. As a result, the Fw 187 was heavier, but it could take the DB601-class engines, while the Whirlwind could not take the equivalent Merlin-class engines without a complete redesign (which was considered, but rejected).
Another difference is that the Whirlwind was built for a heavy cannon armament from the outset, as clearly visible in the above photograph :-) The Fw 187 started with four rifle-calibre machine guns, which was weak armament even back then.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Thank you HoHun.
The redesign being the Welkin hi alt interceptor?
Would have been interesting if they had fit the Whirlwind with another new wing optimised for low alt, its performance certainly seems far better than the Beaufighter.
I suppose the role in which it excelled was taken by the introduction of the Typhoon (and of course Mosquito), so there would have been no point in a time consuming and costly redesign.
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So, it would be up for the MA ;)
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Hi Furball,
>The redesign being the Welkin hi alt interceptor?
No, the re-design was never accomplished. The Welkin was a new aircraft that did share the same general layout with the Whirlwind, not a direct re-design.
>Would have been interesting if they had fit the Whirlwind with another new wing optimised for low alt
Hm, I have found mention of the Whirlwind wings as being NACA 23xxx profiles, which are good all-around and were used on many WW2 aircraft, including the Fw 190. If that's correct, the Whirlwind's wing was probably OK.
>I suppose the role in which it excelled was taken by the introduction of the Typhoon (and of course Mosquito), so there would have been no point in a time consuming and costly redesign.
I believe the Whirlwind was originally designed as four-cannon interceptor, and with engines becoming more powerful, it became possible to mount four cannon on a single-engined fighter, too, so there was no reason left to go for the additional complexity and cost of a twin.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)