Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman_SBM on May 30, 2001, 07:11:00 AM
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The Supreme Court has ruled (http://www.usatoday.com/news/court/2001-05-30-bbt-martin.htm) that in the PGA there is no significant advantage gained by riding a cart rather than walking the course.
Have they ever played? What's next? Do we modify the rules in MLB, NBA, NFL, NHL, and NASCAR so people with disabilities can play there also?
I have the solution... Give everyone a cart.
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cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs (http://www.screaminbluemessiahs.org)
The SBM's are hiring! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum11/HTML/000263.html)
[This message has been edited by Sandman_SBM (edited 05-30-2001).]
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You can't be serious. What next ? You gonna call Golf a SPORT ? Get the heck outta here...
It's a GAME for old overweight men which doesn't require any athletic abilities, none, zero, nada. It's a stupid little game advertised as some sort of "elite upper class" relaxation...
To think that someone would actually advocate that WALKING the course is considered a part of the CHALLENGE is ludicrous. How come none of those overpaid buffoons carries their own fricking bag ? Too heavy ?
I'm disguised that they waisted Supreme Court's time with this roadkill case.
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Will the PGA change their rules and allow everyone to use a cart?
It's getting to the point now that rules mean nothing. I guess Laws are next to only be applied when ya feel like it. Oops, forgot that this has already been done, Clinton administration (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)!!
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Originally posted by fd ski:
To think that someone would actually advocate that WALKING the course is considered a part of the CHALLENGE is ludicrous. How come none of those overpaid buffoons carries their own fricking bag ? Too heavy ?
Here's what the players said:
"I think we ought to take them all out and play golf," Jack Nicklaus said of the justices. "I think they'd change their minds. I promise you, it's fundamental."
I'm sure Mr. Nicklaus knows much more about golf than I. I defer to his opinion on this one.
"Walking six miles a day six days a week is part of the deal," said another tour veteran, Steve Pate. "If you don't think we're a sport, then a part of my premise is gone. But I think we are."
Frank Nobilo, a native of New Zealand, said there was no doubt that the game is harder when a player has to walk.
"Anytime you get to ride, you gain an advantage, don't you? I think you do," Nobilo said. "It's the same reason they try to ban drugs in sports — because it gives an advantage."
As for myself, walking while carrying the bag is certainly more draining than riding the cart. Of course, the cart brings other difficulties in the form of that ice chest in the back (full of beer).
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cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs (http://www.screaminbluemessiahs.org)
The SBM's are hiring! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum11/HTML/000263.html)
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Thanks for sharing your opinion on Golf and Golfers, nothing like using a broad brush of prefab predudice to describe people who enjoy a passtime, er Sport.
Then again I too am disgusted that the Supreme Courts time was wasted on this. Guess we agree on something here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
JimBear
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It's a GAME for old overweight men which doesn't require any athletic abilities, none, zero, nada. It's a stupid little game advertised as some sort of "elite upper class" relaxation...
LOL! Spoken like someone that tried it once because it looked easy.
And that Tiger Woods... what a hippo. Greg Norman.. nicknamed pudge? Jack Nicklaus... always with the beer belly. Are you going to tell me that Football has any less obesity than the PGA? Or baseball? Come on. The only sport I can think of with fit players is the NBA (soccer intentionally omitted)... and even there height is more of a requirement than ability for many players.
As far as the decision goes....
The PGA brought this on themselves. The individual that filed the suit had no advantage to gain. It was a handicap that caused the situation... and there is no way the Supreme Court was going to rule against him. The PGA should have made an exception in this case. If you ever saw this gentleman just walking from the cart to his golf ball you'd know why he wasn't gaining anything over other golfers.
Its just disappointing that the decision had to go to the Supreme Court... and I think the rules of the PGA will have to change because of it. They really should fire their legal advisors.
AKDejaVu
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You can't beat the crap out of anyone in golf... therefore I don't classify it as a sport..
Now if they allowed revised rules, I'd have "Tackle Golf" where you can run across the green and level some poor bastard just before he putts in for a perfect game.
Oh yeah and you HAVE to be loaded up on beer too...
Until then, it ain't no sport!
:-)
-SW
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Oh yeah... bring it on... Full Contact Golf.
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tried it twice, found it tidiously boring at least till the point where i got drunk, then i found some enjoyment in it. ( note that i feel you have to be on the verge of passing out to like this "game" ) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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I noticed none of those who posted against the cart ruling are disabled. Perhaps if you didn't have full use of your legs it might make a difference. You know, the old walk a mile in my shoes type of thing.
The disability of that one low ranking golfer is what brought this all on. I guess if that guy loses his leg entirely the PGA would require he not use an artificial leg as the other players aren't allowed to use one to help their game.....
Mav <--- doesn't think much about golf and nothing at all about the PGA.
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Oh... this isn't about the rights of handicapped people. They facilities all have to abide by the law and provide access.
The issue is that the PGA was forced to modify their rules to allow handicapped individuals to compete. It's just silly. These are professional athletes (if you regard golf to be a sport). This is an entirely different level of competition.
There is a difference however slight it may be. Walking four rounds of golf is more difficult than riding it. Anyone that has ever golfed both ways knows that there is a difference.
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I know for a fact it's harder to walk 9 holes of golf than riding in a cart..
Oh we aren't talking about mini putt putt?
N'ermind.
-SW
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The issue is that the PGA was forced to modify their rules to allow handicapped individuals to compete. It's just silly.
Actually.. that's not entirely true. The PGA was forced to modify their rules to allow a handicapped individual to compete. The idea that they should have to make accomodations for anyone's various handicap is not in question.
The idea that the PGA could not figure out that this individual gained absolutely zero advantages over other players by using a cart is simply amazing. They forced this on themselves.
The one quote that irritated me a little was by Jack Nicklaus... the "let them walk 6 miles 6 days a week". I say let Jack walk 100 yards 1 time with his leg on fire to get a glimpse of what he's fighting against.
AKDejaVu
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I have a total knee replacement (left) and titianuim pins holding my right ankle together with extreme arthritis (note to self semi-trucks win against motorcycles everytime). I play golf. I don't ride in a frek'n cart. I often play 27 holes. It is hard work to carry around the bag and play, but I love the game and being outdoors. I could have a handicap sticker on my car, I don't. I am not a pansey. Martin is. The cart does give him an advantage when they play more than 18 holes in a day. To all my redneck friends.....tell me pool is a sport how about darts. Weight lifting? There are many types of sports. Some require skill, some brute force and power, some a little of both, but I would never bag on anyones sport.
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"Little boy blue....cause he needed the money".....owwwww
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Walking 18 holes does not a sport make, unless you're a professional bowler.
Not completely contrary to your post Jay, but anyone who thinks the sport (skill, competition, draw, whathaveyou) of golf comes from the fact they walk 18 holes is a little off base. If they walked 18 holes with people throwing rocks at them, you might have a case, or maybe 11 guys trying to tackle you as you went to your next tee.
[This message has been edited by Fatty (edited 05-31-2001).]
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Originally posted by Fatty:
Walking 18 holes does not a sport make, unless you're a professional bowler.
Not completely contrary to your post Jay, but anyone who thinks the sport (skill, competition, draw, whathaveyou) of golf comes from the fact they walk 18 holes is a little off base. If they walked 18 holes with people throwing rocks at them, you might have a case, or maybe 11 guys trying to tackle you as you went to your next tee.
[This message has been edited by Fatty (edited 05-31-2001).]
Try 36 holes. And yes fatigue does effect you ability to think (or not to think for you golfers out there) and to execute the shot. Remember these guys (or buffons as some call them) get paid for there performance not for a contract. If they play bad then they don't make money. The expenses of being on tour are very hefty and if your a average golfer on tour making less than 250K a year, you will find yourself around the same as a somebody making 50-65K a year. Walk 6-7 miles then hit a 1" ball within 2 feet of a 4" hole from 150 yards with a stick and tell me it doesn't take skill or talent and isnt a sport. Walk (or not walking) does effect your play. Any advantage can make or break a tournament. This game (which is one of the oldest) has a lot of history and one of the few games where the player is required to be "HONEST" and call penelties on themsleves.
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"Little boy blue....cause he needed the money".....owwwww
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Yeah, Jay, some bowling balls are heavy.
Heck I get tired just driving there sometimes, is that part of the sport too? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I enjoy watching Tiger Woods, might even go so far to call myself a fan. But what impresses me is not his ability to walk as far as some little old ladies, but his actual golf game.
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Originally posted by Fatty:
Yeah, Jay, some bowling balls are heavy.
Heck I get tired just driving there sometimes, is that part of the sport too? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I enjoy watching Tiger Woods, might even go so far to call myself a fan. But what impresses me is not his ability to walk as far as some little old ladies, but his actual golf game.
Agreed Fatty......walking is not "part" of the sport itself but just the transport to get to the next "frame". It does impact performance. Would you be opposed to someone having the little ramp they use for the kiddies on tour due to not being able to pick up the bowling ball (due to its weight) for the entire set of frames or having someone with a sholder problem be able to use a brace that would enable them to keep there sholder in line with there body with out fail? I will tell you this...I cant bowl at all (due to my knee). I use to play rugby and soccer before my bike wreck. It takes skill to play any sport and fatigue can effect the game. Golf at a competitive level for its entire lifetime (since the 1700's) has been played by people who walk the course. It is part of the game just as picking up a heavy bowling ball. Call me anal, but when riding a cart it is sort of a fat, rich, lazymans sport. I have friends who play on the buy.com tour. When they play day in and day out in 100+ degree heat and cannot generate enuff breeze to keep themselves from heat exhaustion it was very depressing to see Mr. Martin all dry and cool riding around in his cart. It was an unfair advantage. Plain and simple. He won more money then the other players. BTW Casey and Tiger went to school together and were friends. Tiger has stated that he would prefer the rules were not altered for this one individual. Tiger does understand the tradition and honor of the game and I very much like to watch him and Sergio Garcia. I was always sort of a Slam'n Sammy Snead fan though (I am a little dated yes.....). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Jayhawk (edited 05-31-2001).]
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Then take the caddies away from the girliemen in today's PGA.
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Ive played golf once.
I agree with everything FD said (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Only think more mindnumbing than playing golf is watching people play it on TV. Only time I kinda enjoyed golf was watching Caddyshack.
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Originally posted by Fatty:
Then take the caddies away from the girliemen in today's PGA.
Make the PBA bowlers retrieve there own ball from the pit. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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Would be fine with me, but I don't see any of them claiming that the walk from the ball tray to the line is part of the difficulty of the sport.
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Originally posted by Fatty:
Would be fine with me, but I don't see any of them claiming that the walk from the ball tray to the line is part of the difficulty of the sport.
They would if it was a 400 yard walk (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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If there were such a thing, and they did complain, I would laugh at them. The same way I laugh at the idea walking 6-7 miles while someone carries your gear along behind you is some sort of athletic feat.
Hitting an accurate drive over 300 yards is impressive. Walking up to it is not, especially with someone else carrying all your stuff.
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Just so I get this straight...
Are you saying that fatigue has absolutely zero impact on making an accurate drive/chip/putt etc?
I agree that walking isn't some sort of feat, but I can't see how this wouldn't have an impact on performance.
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Guys... it's not just one walk up to the ball. We're talking 72 holes. That's approximately 20 miles of walking.
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cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs (http://www.screaminbluemessiahs.org)
The SBM's are hiring! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum11/HTML/000263.html)
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Unless you are in very bad shape, no, it should not have any impact whatsoever.
Yes, 20 miles, broken up into 4 days. If you cannot make 5 miles (broken up all afternoon) and still be able to swing a club with zero noticable effects, I strongly suggest you get your blood pressure and cholestoral checked.
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Are you saying that fatigue has absolutely zero impact on making an accurate drive/chip/putt etc?
I don't think anyone said that. I do believe that most (including the supreme court) believe that this individual had enough impacting him fatigue wise just walking from the cart to the ball as any other golfers experience walking 6 miles.
Once again, the policy should have considered just what this particular golfer was gaining by using a cart. It wasn't to keep him from getting tired. Any advantages gained are outweighed by the disability.
AKDejaVu
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So... the next time someone asks for a cart, it's going to go to the Supreme Court to decide if they deserve it or not?
Oh... and some of the tournaments go 72 holes in two days...
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cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs (http://www.screaminbluemessiahs.org)
The SBM's are hiring! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum11/HTML/000263.html)
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Any advantages gained are outweighed by the disability.
Then I reckon the US Olympic Rowing team outta fit one of their boats up with an Evenrude and about 2 dozen pontoons, because clearly... SOB is in NO shape to participate under the current draconian conditions. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
"Disabled golfer Casey Martin may use a cart to ride in tournaments, the Supreme Court ruled Tuesday, saying federal law requires a leveling of the playing field for the handicapped, even in pro sports."
I mean... not to be calous about this man's condition... it's unfortunate, yeah... but we're talking about professional athletes playing at the top of their respective fields. Do we really want to see this door being openned?
Btw, what is the definition of "handicapped", anyway? Is it something you're born with? A disease? Or could it also include the numerous career ending injuries professional athletes are constantly aflicted with?
If some kind of heriditary disease only... Could hemopheliacs who have ambitions on the NFL be given flags in lieu of getting tackled?
If it includes just pure debilitating injury, could a goalie with a bum knee have the posts moved in to offset his restricted movement?
Extreme cases, granted... but it's interesting. I'm not sure how and where the line would be drawn.
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So... the next time someone asks for a cart, it's going to go to the Supreme Court to decide if they deserve it or not?
Nope.. its already gone to the supreme court. That's the PGA's fault. They could have stopped a legal precident but chose to burry their heads in the sand anyways.
And Nash, the basic game has not been changed in any way. Only the most suprifulous aspect of it.
With rowing, it would be comparitive to someone with no hand being allowed to use a prosthetic attatchment to hold onto the oar. Or with baseball, it would allow a one armed pitcher to not wear his glove until after the ball was thrown. Or with hockey, it would allow a player to wear a mouthpeice in order to protect his dentures.
Golf is Golf. The Supreme Court determined that golf isn't walking... it is golfing. I suppose if they were also required to carry their own bags, it would be different... but they aren't because they are so lazy that they feel simply walking 6 miles is pretty major. Hell.. I walk more than that 6 days a week just going from my desk to the fab and back.
AKDejaVu
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Oh.. I forgot to mention... they are taking 3 1/2 hours to walk those 6 (actually less) miles.
AKDejaVu
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They could have stopped a legal precident but chose to burry their heads in the sand anyways.
The PGA understands that golf is a game of millimeters and milliradians. Any difference in your swing, however slight, can affect your game. Even Tiger has stated that he's happy for his friend because he now gets to participate but at the same time he is concerned that this will lead to a drastic change in the PGA tour.
The PGA isn't worried about Martin. They are worried about the cases that will come now that the precendent has been set. You can bet that each of the professional sports are looking at their policies to determine how this new precedent may affect their game.
It's no longer about Martin and his handicap or whether he alone will affect the tour.
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cheers,
sand
screamin blue messiahs (http://www.screaminbluemessiahs.org)
The SBM's are hiring! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum11/HTML/000263.html)
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7-2 ruling, wasn't it?
Who were the "2"?
"Justice Antonin Scalia wrote the dissent, joined by fellow conservative Justice Clarence Thomas."
Sandman, FD Ski.... your new heroes?
<G,D,R>
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***Off topic***
Is it just me, or does anyone else find Clarence Thomas' performance on the Supreme Court to be somewhat... lacking?
Two questions for anyone that might know:
Has he yet to ask a question of anyone while on the bench? (Last I heard was still no, but this could have changed).
Has he ever given a ruling (vote, opinion, verdict, whatever) that differed from Scalia's? (This would be very interesting).
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The PGA isn't worried about Martin. They are worried about the cases that will come now that the precendent has been set. You can bet that each of the professional sports are looking at their policies to determine how this new precedent may affect their game.
Bingo! Now, do you think that someone would have went to the supreme court saying that walking that far made their back hurt and they should be able to take a cart... and won? I don't. Now they don't have to.
The PGA should have made an exception at the time for the first extreme situation they've had to encounter. This wasn't an injury, it was a disability... a severe one.
Now, they have vague wording from the supreme court to endure.
Its their own fault for having no foresight. I really don't understand how this decision and its implications are a suprise to anyone.
AKDejaVu
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Toad ... read my post again... and again... and again... and again... and again... and now you can go edit your post. Putz (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Originally posted by fd ski:
I'm disguised that they waisted Supreme Court's time with this roadkill case.
FD,
Which two Justices basically agree with your opinion?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Well as a person who enjoys swinging the clubs every now and again I would just like to say that it is absolutely ridiculous that the girl in the beer cart doesnt follow my cart around to every hole. I mean, really, how in the hell is a man supposed to be able to perform at his highest when that damn beer girl only shows up every 3 or 4 holes?
Who do I need to sue to get this fixed? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)