Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sundiver on September 06, 2006, 08:16:50 AM
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Okay so here's the scenario, in my son's third grade classroom they've begun the process of learning about scientific method and prediction. All well and fine, however my son chose not to participate in the experiment based upon the fact that a living thing was going to be permitted to suffer and or die. All that being aside my question is this: Is it teaching good fundamental science to these children to teach them that it's okay for any living organism to suffer in the name of science? Now I'm not talking about animal experimentation in a college setting or corporate or medical research but teaching children.
"I am writing you to inform you of a problem we had in class today. Today in science we started our study of plants. We discussed living, nonliving, and once living. As a class we defined the three and told the difference of the three. Awhile later as we were discussing living objects I asked what the needs were of a living object. After going over the needs and writing them on the board I told the class we were going to do an experiment. The experiment would involve two healthy plants one would be given the needs and that other would not be given the needs."
To me this just seems the wrong way to approach scientific method with elementary children. Why not instead have the exeripmental plant be fed plant food?
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Science is not for teaching morality or compasion. It is there to show us what happens when we do or don't do this or that.
Touchy feely science goes no where.
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it went a long way for Dr Alfred Kinsey
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OMG they want to kill a plant? they are monsters. that is no way to raise a metro-sexual child. :O
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Originally posted by Debonair
it went a long way for Dr Alfred Kinsey
OMG!! :D
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Sun,
Let your son make decisions, if he doesn't want to kill something, he shouldn't have to. If it becomes a problem affecting his grades then you and your spouse may need to have a conference with the teacher. Dissecting frogs in a high school biology class we were allowed to skip it, but if you did then you still had to do a "virtual dissection". I didn't learn scientific method until 6th grade and the only "experiments" we did in elementary were growing beans in a plastic baggy and having some animals in the classroom.
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Plants don't suffer, they have no nervous systems. Anyone thinking otherwise is a vegetable.
You could begin your childs adventure to science by explaining this thing first.
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To me this just seems the wrong way to approach scientific method with elementary children. Why not instead have the exeripmental plant be fed plant food?
Sundiver, correct me if I misunderstood, but as described, the experiment appears to be for the purpose of seeing what happens to healthy plants under two conditions:
1. when the plant's needs are met
2. when the plant's needs are not met.
and to demonstrate the use of the scientific method in conducting the experiment.
How does your suggestion: "Why not instead have the exeripmental plant be fed plant food?[/b]" make any sense at all in this context?
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so when he's a teen, are you going to let him get out of mowing the lawn with this excuse? or pulling weeds?
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Something tells me when they dissect dead frogs in 6th grade, there is going to be hell raised by the Sundiver family. :D
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SD it sounds like your son may be showing first signs of independent thinking. I think it is wonderful you have honoured his perspective. I suspect if you continue to do so you and your son will reap a lifetime of reward.
Something for you to consider is an introduction to others who feel the same way he does. One leader who comes to mind is:
Dali Lama - Instructions for Life
(http://www.dianebradford.com/images/Dali-Lama.jpg)
INSTRUCTIONS FOR LIFE
1. Take into account that great love and great achievements involve great risk.
2. When you lose, don't lose the lesson.
3. Follow the three R’s:
Respect for self
Respect for others and
Responsibility for all your actions.
4. Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a wonderful stroke of luck.
5. Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
6. Don't let a little dispute injure a great friendship.
7. When you realize you've made a mistake, take immediate steps to correct it.
8. Spend some time alone every day.
9. Open your arms to change, but don't let go of your values.
10. Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer.
11. Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back, you'll be able to enjoy it a second time.
12. A loving atmosphere in your home is the foundation for your life.
13. In disagreements with loved ones deal only with the current situation. Don't bring up the past.
14. Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality.
15. Be gentle with the earth.
16. Once a year, go someplace you've never been before.
17. Remember that the best relationship is one in which your love for each other exceeds your need for each other.
18. Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.
19. Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Plants don't suffer, they have no nervous systems. Anyone thinking otherwise is a vegetable.
You could begin your childs adventure to science by explaining this thing first.
Best advice yet. There is a vast difference between animals and plants. Explaining that plants don't suffer or feel anything will make eating a salad or piece of fruit a less traumatic experience for the little guy.
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Dali Lama - Instructions for Life
INSTRUCTIONS FOR LIFE
8. Spend some time alone every day.
(http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/images/smilies/jack.gif)
Woo hoo!
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lol Rip
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
Explaining that plants don't suffer or feel anything will make eating a salad or piece of fruit a less traumatic experience for the little guy.
Researchers Determine Plants Can Feel Pain, Vegetarians Eye Rocks
By Brian Briggs
East Lansing, MI - Researchers from Michigan State University discovered that plants have a rudimentary nerve structure which allows them to feel pain.
David Blackford who heads the research team explained, "The nervous system is undeveloped, but it is there. This could be the evolutionary breakthrough that we've been looking for."
While a great research breakthrough for scientists, the discovery causes a dilemma for strict vegetarians who don't eat animal products because of concerns about animal safety.
A group of vegetarians at the local Carrot Café restaurant shared their feelings.
"If a potato feels pain, I might as well eat a baby seal," said Carrie Selby of Lansing. "Or maybe, I'll try out that all-dirt diet I've heard so much about."
Jenna Chang from Okemos added, "I always thought I heard a tiny scream every time I pulled a carrot out of the ground at the community garden."
Meat lovers reported a much greater desire to devour a salad after hearing the news. "I knew it," exclaimed one carnivore, "those vegetarians act all high and mighty and they're just as big of killers as I am. Heck, even more so. Only one cow had to die to make my steak, but lots of plants were massacred to make that mixed green salad!"
People for the Ethical Treatment of Plants sprang up concurrently with the announcement. "We've placed picketers at cornfields around the country. They grow these things so close together, the stalks barely have room to turn around and move," said PETP spokesperson William Wagner.
"We're recommending that our members focus on food items that don't feel pain like nerve damaged infants or Styrofoam," Wagner continued. "Here, have one of our 'Salad is Murder' T-shirts."
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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What's with all the touchy-feely "I'm OK you're OK" crap in schools.... kids aren't that dumb. They ought to be able to separate the real world from science class.
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Meat lovers reported a much greater desire to devour a salad after hearing the news. "I knew it," exclaimed one carnivore, "those vegetarians act all high and mighty and they're just as big of killers as I am. Heck, even more so. Only one cow had to die to make my steak, but lots of plants were massacred to make that mixed green salad!"
That was funny. :rofl
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We disected chicken wings, worms, and a pig fetus in Bio in highschool. Made lots of brownie points being the only male in my group and doing all the dirty work. :aok
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i ate chicken wings, pig & made pot brownies
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And the angel of the lord came unto me, snatching me up from my place of slumber. And took me on high, and higher still until we moved to the spaces betwixt the air itself. And he brought me into a vast farmlands of our own midwest. And as we descended, cries of impending doom rose from the soil. One thousand, nay a million voices full of fear. And terror possesed me then. And I begged, "Angel of the Lord, what are these tortured screams?" And the angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots, the cries of the carrots! You see, Reverend Maynard, tomorrow is harvest day and to them it is the holocaust." And I sprang from my slumber drenched in sweat like the tears of one million terrified brothers and roared, "Hear me now, I have seen the light! They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers!" Can I get an amen? Can I get a hallelujah? Thank you Jesus.
Life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on life feeds on........
This is necessary.
It was daylight when you woke up in your ditch. You looked up at your sky then. That made blue be your color. You had your knife there with you too. When you stood up there was goo all over your clothes. Your hands were sticky. You wiped them on your grass, so now your color was green. Oh Lord, why did everything always have to keep changing like this. You were already getting nervous again. Your head hurt and it rang when you stood up. Your head was almost empty. It always hurt you when you woke up like this. You crawled up out of your ditch onto your gravel road and began to walk, waiting for the rest of your mind to come back to you. You can see the car parked far down the road and you walked toward it. "If God is our Father," you thought, "then Satan must be our cousin." Why didn't anyone else understand these important things? You got to your car and tried all the doors. They were locked. It was a red car and it was new. There was an expensive leather camera case laying on the seat. Out across your field, you could see two tiny people walking by your woods. You began to walk towards them. Now red was your color and, of course, those little people out there were yours too.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Plants don't suffer, they have no nervous systems. Anyone thinking otherwise is a vegetable.
You could begin your childs adventure to science by explaining this thing first.
What about venus flytraps, or the flowers that always face the sun?
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Your moaning and groaning about a flipping plant??
You of coarse know millions of plants are murdered each day.
Dont know which is in need of a boot in the butt more. the kid or the parent. LOL
Tell him to shut up and do what the teacher says
I blame Bush Sr followed up by Clinton for all this "Kinder Gentler" and PC Worring about being "offended" Bull crap
Its a flipping plant. Not some stray dog fer chrissakes
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
I liked this one too
PETA Members Shown
Food Chain - Disband
By Brian Briggs
New York City - In a startling development members of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) disbanded after being shown a basic food chain chart by Marion High School Biology teacher Fred McInnes.
"I was surprised that they weren't aware how the food chain worked,"
said McInnes. "I just showed them the basic food chain (pictured left) with humans on top."
"He showed us the chart and it was like somebody turned the lights on," said the PETA President. "We're at the top. We can eat anything below us. That makes my job useless. I never looked at it that way."
After showing the chart to several members an emergency board meeting was called. By a vote of 12-0, PETA was disbanded. "I'm really kind of heartbroken," PETA member Jenny Golsen said. "I'm looking forward to getting that new fur coat though. Does this mean I can eat a hamburger? Yee-haw!"
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Originally posted by Sundiver
Okay so here's the scenario, in my son's third grade classroom they've begun the process of learning about scientific method and prediction. All well and fine, however my son chose not to participate in the experiment based upon the fact that a living thing was going to be permitted to suffer and or die. All that being aside my question is this: Is it teaching good fundamental science to these children to teach them that it's okay for any living organism to suffer in the name of science? Now I'm not talking about animal experimentation in a college setting or corporate or medical research but teaching children.
"I am writing you to inform you of a problem we had in class today. Today in science we started our study of plants. We discussed living, nonliving, and once living. As a class we defined the three and told the difference of the three. Awhile later as we were discussing living objects I asked what the needs were of a living object. After going over the needs and writing them on the board I told the class we were going to do an experiment. The experiment would involve two healthy plants one would be given the needs and that other would not be given the needs."
To me this just seems the wrong way to approach scientific method with elementary children. Why not instead have the exeripmental plant be fed plant food?
Does your son expect to mow the grass or do yardwork in the future?
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Originally posted by NATEDOG
so when he's a teen, are you going to let him get out of mowing the lawn with this excuse? or pulling weeds?
DING DING!
LOL if I had tried this in school, I would have had to eat grass clippings!!!!
Good one ND!
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Plants don't suffer, they have no nervous systems. Anyone thinking otherwise is a vegetable.
DALLAS--Research scientists at Baylor Medical Center have proven that plants, including vegetables, feel pain when subjected to trauma such as being yanked out of the ground, peeled, cooked, and eaten. "Veggies and plants initiate a massive hormone and chemical barrage internally when they suffer any kind of injury," says professor Barry Lindzer. "This response is akin to the nerve response and endorphin release when an animal is injured. We cannot ignore the similarities."
Tell your son that when he eats he is inflicting pain on another organism. When a lion kills a wildebeest, the wildebeest feels pain, but it must happen for the lion to survive. The lion is not being unethical, as inflicting some pain is inevitable. Pain is part of life.
Tell him this while you eat a carrot.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Tell your son that when he eats he is inflicting pain on another organism. When a lion kills a wildebeest, the wildebeest feels pain, but it must happen for the lion to survive. The lion is not being unethical, as inflicting some pain is inevitable. Pain is part of life.
Tell him this while you eat a carrot.
and someday we will grok you in fullness too holden.
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So if I take a chainsaw to a tree, am I commiting first degree treeslaughter?
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Originally posted by Meatwad
So if I take a chainsaw to a tree, am I commiting first degree treeslaughter?
only if it was pre-medatated, but if say the tree attacked your car you could claim self defense.
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Originally posted by Meatwad
So if I take a chainsaw to a tree, am I commiting first degree treeslaughter?
In Bloomington, IN if you don't get permission from the local tree huggers to remove limbs from your yard you can get a big fine.
Cutting a tree down without permission can get you jail time.
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In order for your boy to survive, he is going to need to kill (or have killed, thanks dad) and feed off of other living organisms. Also, this thread topic proves that humanity is evolving itself straight into extinction. Come along for the ride you see, the earth is better off with you dead.
:D
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I got your science for ya...
I allways tell vegetarians that scientists have been able to measure the screams plants make when they are uprooted.
lazs
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Be proud of your son Sundiver. He thinks for himself and his motivations are humane.
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He should think about the bacterial genocide of walking on the floor, showering, brushing his teeth...
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As a counterpoint, I think I'll just reference Seagoon's post (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=186612).
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Er, what would Jesus tell him to do?
;)
"Tell him this while you eat a carrot."
lol. And that point could be truly emphasized better when made right after a successful carrot hunt and using a fresh "daucus carota" carcass. IMO there's nothing better than sinking ones teeth into a roots attached, leafy head flopping about, unwashed carrot "kill" when delivering a message to todays "yoOophs" !
For we are carnivore. All others are meals, side dishes and snacks (ie: not including rocks, trees and mud or sand)
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Having said and read: I do not believe that the teaching of science requires the sacrifice of any living organism simply to teach acedemic points.
In this sense, a frog a cat or a dog should not be killed simply to teach anotomy. But, on the other hand, if the animal was killed by other means, say an accident, or for other legitimate reasons, then I would agree with and support the use of the corpse to be used for teaching. In this sense it would be a worthwhile endeavor.