Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: midnight Target on September 06, 2006, 05:48:28 PM
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(http://www.telusplanet.net/public/philqgbr/m91-30.jpg)
Of course I had to undergo a strenuous background check and answer a whole bunch of really hard questions... and now I have to wait 11 days, cause I might just be a hot head who wants to off my wife in a fit of rage over her DRIVING ... nevermind
anyway, since I'm new to gun ownership any suggestions would be appreciated.
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Congrats! :aok
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When you get it take it to a gunsmith to make sure it doesn't have a headspace problem. Chances are very good it does not but it is an old piece and they can get parts swapped at the depot.
Other than that, clean it get some ammo and have a good time at the range.
Oh and welcome to the dark side.
(http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/vader.gif) (http://www.millan.net)
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join the NRA as a life member, go to the bureau of elections and change your party affiliation, quit getting manicures every friday and start eating copious amounts of red meat.
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A commie rifle, of all things.
Is it a 1930, 1938 or 1944?
I'm guessing 1930--am I right?, or is it the Chinese clone?
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1943
I am waiting 11 days to receive mine, but the one I bought has a much darker finish. Bolt action seemed very smooth though.
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Originally posted by Maverick
When you get it take it to a gunsmith to make sure it doesn't have a headspace problem. Chances are very good it does not but it is an old piece and they can get parts swapped at the depot.
Other than that, clean it get some ammo and have a good time at the range.
Oh and welcome to the dark side.
(http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/vader.gif) (http://www.millan.net)
:huh his wife or the rifle? :D
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Cool! I bought the same one last year, makes nice bruises :cool:
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Friend of mine bought the M44, same thing but has the bayonet. He bought a synthetic stock, scope mount & scope, & a recoil compensator. Makes it look like a modern version, plus a lot less recoil.
I kept mine original though, so I don't through as much ammo.
Fun thing is, at the range, everyone turns their head to see where that incredible concussion is coming from :)
One older man wouldn't even fire near my friend while he was firing...(yea, pout about firing a rifle at a gun range).
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thats why they sall rubber butt pads for it:t
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i have one of those locked in a box in my closet with its' very own bayonet. unfortunately im only holding onto it for a friend cuz his mom hates guns. and i also hear that it has a nasty kick, saw the bruises on my friend's shoulder.
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dont shoot yourself :)
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Bushmaster M4 (http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/bcwa3f16m4.asp)
This is what I bought a few months back. A3 flat top upper, and rail system installed on the forward grips. Installed a vertical forward grip, Surefire tactical light, Red Dot reflex sight, and I'm saving up to buy a Aim Point laser.
IT'S FUN!!!!!!!
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WTG MT. Milsurp = fun. I doubt I'll buy a boltie (I'm a lefty) but they make nice holes in stuff. :)
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What'd you end up paying for that....if you don't mind me asking? I've been pricing them out and seems you can get a decent one for under $200.
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Actually MT, that is a great choice for a starter rifle. It doesn't kick hard at all, it's a blast to shoot, and it makes a great bang.
Just so you know, the standard rifle cleaner is Hoppes #9. After a while, it'll start to smell like liquid love.
Anyway, the standard surplus ammo is corrosive. Hoppes doesn't work too well, but Ammonia diluted by water is what you need.
If Nirvana is paying attention, this is the kind of gun you want to start with. Cheap, can be beat up, isn't important to anything, and a blast to shoot.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
What'd you end up paying for that....if you don't mind me asking? I've been pricing them out and seems you can get a decent one for under $200.
It was under $100. Look for sales, I got mine at Big 5 Sporting Goods.
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So, it calls for 7.62 x 54 ammo. what does the 54 stand for?
I actually read up on the 7.62.. it is the metric equivalent of .3 inches or "3-line" based on an archaic Russian system of measurement.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
So, it calls for 7.62 x 54 ammo. what does the 54 stand for?
I actually read up on the 7.62.. it is the metric equivalent of .3 inches or "3-line" based on an archaic Russian system of measurement.
54 is the case length in mms
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Just for reference, the .30-06 is 7.62x63mm, the .308 is 7.62x51mm, and the 8mm (german round) is 7.92x58mm.
Generally the bigger the second number, the bigger the boom.
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Prepare to spend a lot of time cleaning it; it will be a bi#ch. Buy cleaning kit or patches with some solvents (one separate for cleaning and one for oil, not both) and maybe a rifle case. Buy surplus ammo (7.62x54R); usually it is around 100$ for 1000 rounds which can be purchased online. My body usually can take about 60-80 rounds per shooting session (180-200 grain) without use of ‘woosy’ pad, so the kick is noticeable.
Once you get addicted to it, there are many other cheap military rifles to buy.
Here is an example:
(http://xd5.xanga.com/649a87f01433575983636/m51366570.jpg)
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Yes i'm paying attention Laser;) My mom gave me one of those ehhhh responses, but I think that's halfway because my sister was in the room (she hates me having guns) and the fact that she thinks it's something my dad should look at first.
OH! You have to be 18 to carry a gun too right? Or just 18 to buy it?
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MT... welcome to the fold... the 54 stands for the length of the brass portion, the case.
Do join the NRA... the reason you were able to even buy that gun has to do with their fight to stop the 68 import ban. Did you know that at one time military rifles were all but banned to be imported? You did know that democrats want em banned again too right?
Join the NRA. they fight for your second amendment rights.
oh... you can get cheap corrosive ammo for about $80 a thousand for that gun.... just suirt the chamber and barrel down good at the end of the day with soap and water or Mpro 7 or..... windex and clean normally
lazs
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Just pitching in on the mention of solvents, and Hoppes #9...
While Hoppes does and always will smell like paradise...you've really got to try Breakfree CLP.
This stuff is actually superior, in that it not only breaks down and removes carbon buildup, but also leaves a persistent, non-greasy lubricant as well as a metal protecting residual.
It's excellent for automatic actions, especially if you choose to shoot them 'wet', as it will keep the carbon and metal particles in suspension, rather than allow them to redeposit in the action.
Took me awhile to be won over, but I've made the change for good, and won't go back. I use it on all my guns, and on tools, clockworks, even a couple drops in the bearings of my R/C helicopter! ...Check it out for yourselves.
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Hi MT,
Very pretty Moisin Nagant you have there, congratulations on your purchase.
Some basic ownership rules:
First, if you can afford it, use American name-brand ammo. It shoots smoother, and is more consistent. If you can't afford it, just make sure that the surplus stuff you buy has non-corrosive primers and is visibly in good condition. Never buy greenish or discolored surplus stuff and put it through your gun.
Second, find a good outdoor range in your area and start practicing. Here are some basic gun safety rules: Make sure you carry your gun unloaded, in a case and transport it locked in the trunk of your car. Never, ever, point your rifle at anything you don't intend to shoot, even unloaded, and always make sure the bolt is open and the chamber is empty before handing it to another person. Don't "dry fire" it, i.e. work the action and pull the trigger when it isn't loaded. Keep your finger out of the trigger guard until you are actually about to shoot. Always wear ear plugs (or ear defenders) and eye protection when shooting - most ranges will require this - trust me on this as years of being casual about that rule have left me with degraded hearing.
Third, you should have an experienced "long gun" guy coach you to improve your shooting, but here are some basic tips:
* Your breathing affects your aim - as you breathe your rifle will go up and down with your chest. Therefore before firing, take a breath, let it all out and then make your final aiming correction. You will find that initially your sights are all over the target.
* Don't grip the gun HARD with your left hand. Let it rest in the palm of your hand.
* Don't anticipate the recoil - this will cause you to flinch, close your eyes, and pull the muzzle up and to the right just as you fire. Also, don't completely close your left eye when aiming.
* Squeeze don't jerk the trigger - get used to the weight of the trigger pull by very gradually applying pressure till you get to the "break" point where it fires. Proper aiming will involve making your final aim corrections while you have pressure on the trigger, then when you "add" just a little more, it will fire.
CLEAN your rifle and lightly lube the bolt with a single drop of gun oil after you go through a box of ammo. DO NOT gunk it up with lots of lube cleaner, this will actually attract dirt and things that scratch the action. Don't get lazy about cleaning.
Finally, don't attempt to hunt with it unless you get it scoped (http://www.gunaccessories.com/MilitaryScopeMounts/MoisinNagant/index.asp)
by a gunsmith. Hunting over open sights is for the really hard types.
Other more experienced shooters should be able to give you additional information.
Have fun. And if you want to keep it, joining the NRA isn't a bad idea.
- SEAGOON
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Congrats
The corrosive deal is overblown, but it needs some attention. These weapons shot corrosive ammo throughout their service lives, were designed to shoot corrosive ammunition and shoot it well today with no problem as long as some minimal maintenance is applied. And, you can get surplus at .10 per round vs .50 which means more practice and fun without thinking about shooting .50 cent pieces down range with every trigger pull. Shoots fine short of hand loading, no real stigma attached to it at all. There is a variety of 7.62 x 54r on the market with different bullet weights (heavy ball/light ball) and a little trial and error will show which variety works best with your specific rifle. Plus, the spam cans are fun to open with the big can openers :) Check out AIM surplus, etc.
The corrosion comes from primers that leave salt residue in the bore. Preventing corrosion from developing involves using water to wash away the salts, since oil based solutions will not do this effectively -- but that's OK! The ammonia debate has been fairly laid to rest, except for the use of ammonia to clean copper fouling. Most ammonia products used as folk cleaning techniques also contain water :) The traditional method of cleaning the bore involves boiling water. Some weapons had special funnels made back in the day, but I use a plastic funnel with an attached flexible tube that is just a bit too large to fit in the bore. I made a few slits in the end and it pushes in fine for a solid fit.
What I do is run a patch or two of the original "poisonous" WW2 era GI bore cleaner through it at the range (this is water based, unlike the latter versions) after shooting just to get a slight head start. Getting back to the ammonia deal, some people spray some Windex down the bore to wash out some of the salts and get some copper fouling removed. When I get home I boil some water on the stove and give the bore a good flushing with the funnel being careful not to spill too much (note: the plastic funnel can get hot so be prepared). The temperature from the boiling water should help the moisture evaporate, but wipe away any residual you may find. Give the bolt face a good wipe down and cleaning as well.
Then perform a traditional cleaning with hoppes or CLP (my fav) using the wire brush and patches with a light oiling afterward. Find a cleaning rod made out of fiberglass, brass or aluminum to prevent muzzle damage. I'll run a dry patch through the bore before I go shooting to clean out any surplus CLP. Periodically, take it apart and check the major components (do a good field-level disassembly (remove barrel/receiver, trigger group as a whole, disassemble major "easy" bolt components, etc.) before the first trip to the range to check for anything that looks amiss). It's also an interesting way to see how the mechanicals function. Make sure you fully tighten all screws and bolts afterward. Periodically do a thorough bore cleaning with a copper removing product, etc.
It sounds like a lot, but in practice it's really not a big deal. Especially since most of the post shooting maintenance can be "good enough" with only a periodic thorough cleaning. in fact a gun that is too clean can (anecdotally) shoot a bit too wide in grouping. However, be sure to get the bore cleaned the day of the shooting if using corrosive ammo. For me that's a 15 - 20 minute process or so and I believe the boiling water (which only adds about a minute or two to the process) helps loosen up the carbon residue as well as the copper should you decided to clean for that.
Also check out Gunboards and Parallax Bills web sites. More information on these weapons than you could imagine, good advice on maintenance (my procedure is hardly original) and some fun mostly apolitical fiream stories. They work to keep the sites largely about the hobby with versions of the O'Club for other discussions.
Charon
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Hi Charon,
I'll leave most of my horror stories about a can of surplus Indian manufacture .303 ammo for some other time, but lets just say that the duds were the best rounds in the batch. It was also my first experience ever with a "slow cook" primer that finally went off significantly after the trigger was pulled, and just before I was about to extract the round from the breech. Could have been worse I suppose. I could have already ejected it. Anyway, after that experience, I've stuck to American manufacture and reloads. It also means I only have to run a cleaning patch and the occasional bore brush through the rifle after shooting. The only time I like to deal with boiled water involves their application to tea leaves, I'm too big a klutz to be pouring it down my rifle on regular basis.
Someday soon, I'll borrow my friends rig for removing lead and copper deposits from the bore but otherwise I've had a trouble free run with my Enfield.
- SEAGOON
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I understand Seagoon,but are you sure it wasn't Paki? That is just about the worst garbage out there. As jones'in as I have been for .303 surplus I knew enough from the boards to just not go there. I just lucked into 960 rounds of Indian 303 still in paper wrapper bundles of 10 at $55/480 rounds, that shot 100 percent with good accuracy. 1937/40.
By the time I tested it (about 3 days) it was sold out of course, so I got two loose 50 cal cans of mixrd Brit/US/Canadian .303 of WW2 vintage. A really mixed bag. About 50 percent real clean, 25 percent iffy and 25 pull the bullet, deactive and add to the brass scrap pile. at $66 per 550 though, even if I just went with the clean stuff you're talking about $.24 per round, which is a lot cheaper than commercial. Plus, about 1/4 of it is Winchester mfg. which is boxer primed, so when I do start reloading (the real cost efficient/quality alternative to surplus) I'll have a lot of good brass. If there was any good, cheap commercial 303 at this price I would have no trouble buying it. It's just amazing how such a once common round of the Empire has just totally dried up. The exotic rumor has it that a bunch was rounded up in the 1970s to help support the taliban against the soviets, leading to it being particularly short today.
Now, for 7.62 x 54r there is still a LOT of high quality, recent (fairly) 100 percent ammo out there sealed in the spam cans from Eastern Europe. Well stored mountains of the stuff from the 1950s - 1980s. The same is still true for 8mm. And the clean up process really just seems more work than it actually is in practice, and I think it helps with the carbon afterward as well. Literally adds just 2-3 minutes if you start the water boiling first then do other stuff. That's not how we clean firearms today, and seems totally alien, but it was once common: Enfield Cleaning Funnel (http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/ti21.htm)
Charon
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on shootin :
Don't let yer breath all the way out .. deep breath or two is good, but hold it about where you would naturally start talking ..about halfway out for most folks.. you are more 'comfortable' there and can hold the site picture longer. (O2 starvation makes your whole body 'nervous' ..from the cellular level on up)
Your natural rythm (heartbeat, blood flow, etc) will make your site picture travel in a figure eight, horizontally, across a target.. and if you strain at holding the sight dead on something, it exxagerates it.
Relax. Focus on the target ..try to shoot at the intersection of the figure eight every time ..smooth trigger pull as you see the site moving toward the intersection.. and practice.
I useda shoot out the center of my target, then the guy next to me, then the guy on the other side, durin basic. I never could shoot 'left barricade' over the years ..bein blind in my left eye.. the nimrod's on the firin line always said 'just do yer best' .. ROFL .. still qualified expert every time.
Because I could.
-GE (taught by my Dad .. who preferred a springfield 30-06 bolt action .. and firmly beleived 'one shot = one kill' ..forward radio observer, patton's 3rd ..D-day to VE-day)
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A lot of people will tell you what to do when you actually begin shooting. Ignore them.
Do what is most comfortable for you, and then tweak from there.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Of course I had to undergo a strenuous background check and answer a whole bunch of really hard questions... and now I have to wait 11 days, cause I might just be a hot head who wants to off my wife in a fit of rage over her DRIVING ... nevermind
anyway, since I'm new to gun ownership any suggestions would be appreciated.
Buy a good cleaning kit. Also, if you shoot surplus ammo, be sure to find out if it uses corrosive primers. It's not a problem if the ammo is corrosive, just wash the bolt, chamber and bore with soapy water, followed by a good solvent to displace any water film. Be sure to coat the bore and all exposed surfaces with a light film of oil after cleaning.
You bought a solid, reliable rifle. It should bring you many years of inexpensive fun. If you get bit by the bug, you can apply to the feds (BATF) for a Curio & Relic license (typically called a collector's license). This allows you to purchase firearms classified as curios or relics (typically over 50 years old) directly from wholesalers and avoid the expense and hassle of using a local FFL dealer. The application fee is $30 and the form is simple enough.
Have fun and be safe.
My regards,
Widewing
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I second on the C&R FFL, it's paid for itself so many times with transfer fees and discounts it's no every funny!
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Advice is appreciated... especially yours Tarmac.
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:D
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Originally posted by midnight Target
(http://www.telusplanet.net/public/philqgbr/m91-30.jpg)
Of course I had to undergo a strenuous background check and answer a whole bunch of really hard questions... and now I have to wait 11 days, cause I might just be a hot head who wants to off my wife in a fit of rage over her DRIVING ... nevermind
anyway, since I'm new to gun ownership any suggestions would be appreciated.
Don't give into the "rubber butt pad" *******. Fire the rifle as mother russia intended. It's still easier to shoot than a 12 gauge shotgun.
The first time I went out shooting, the guy I went with had a veritable armory. Ranging from a P38 to an XD40 to an AR-15 to an SKS. Despite it being the cheapest gun he owned, his M44 was the gun I completely fell in love with.
Don't worry a lot about ammo. The mosin will do well with anything you can get to run through it. The only exception is the special and fairly rare shvak he rounds. The rifle was designed for the corrosive ammunition, as long as you clean it after shooting it, there are no problems.
If you can spare the $10, it's worth it for everything you ever wanted to know about the mosin-nagant (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1764165)
Edit: Where do you live that you're so restricted in buying a rifle?
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Where do i live?
The belly of the beast!
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Hi Charon,
Originally posted by Charon
I understand Seagoon,but are you sure it wasn't Paki? That is just about the worst garbage out there.
I don't actually know for sure if the country of origin wasn't Pakistan. I bought the ammo at a gun show. The dealer said the country of origin was India. The rounds (250) were in a canvas MG belt that was folded and put in another cardboard box. The canvas itself showed signs of mold, and several of the rounds in lower layers had significant verdigris. I bought them because he was selling them at 5 cents a round. I figured that even if some weren't in firing condition, it would be a bargain, which turned out to be a huge mistake. Cartridges found on a sunken WWII freighter probably wouldn't have fired significantly worse.
I'll see if I can find some of the old brass - I threw most of it away - and check for a headstamp.
- SEAGOON
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Ok... I am getting more and more lazy on the whole gun cleaning thing.... I bring guns and all kinds of ammo to shooting events with friends and then go home with a lot of dirty guns and empty unsorted brass.
I have taken to real shortcuts these days... I spray some windex down the bore and chamber and bolt face of the rifles that had corrosive ammo or.... I spray em down real good with Mpro7 This stuff is guarenteed to neutralize salts and I believe em... it has worked for me... it also gets down into the pores of the metal.
I get a tootbrush and a cleaning rod and brush everything down with dillons or shooters choice solvent including a few passes down the bore and or/cyl.(hoppes smells nice but it is pretty weak)
I wipe everything down with a rag and then spray it all down with breakfree and wipe off the excess with an old breakfree rag and then run a hoppes bore snake that has the last couple inches sprayed with breakfree through.
Put everything back together and call it good.
Probly average about 5 minutes a gun and maybe an extra minute if I use a "lead wipe away" cloth to get the burn rings off the SS revolvers cylinders faces.
lazs
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What do you guys mean when you say it's designed for corrosive ammo? Isn't it all the same, the corrosive just has salts that get left behind?