Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: rogwar on September 08, 2006, 08:13:35 AM
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http://www.navytimes.com/static.php?f=lastF14flight080206.php
Kinda sad....wish they could have moved on with the bomb cat. Yeah the contraversy has been discussed enough.
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Dang, nice speech/pics.:cry
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I thought it was already gone, WHY DID THEY HAVE TO TAKE IT AWAY?!?:cry
Maybe the maintenance times...:eek:
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Nice pictures indeed.
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that was very well done.
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Someone from Grumman pissed Cheney off back in the 90s. Cheney ordered all the F-14 tooling destroyed - effectively killing the F-14's future.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Someone from Grumman pissed Cheney off back in the 90s. Cheney ordered all the F-14 tooling destroyed - effectively killing the F-14's future.
Why would they do that? Is this a standard procedure?
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Grumman had submitted several proposals to the Navy to upgrade the Tomcat beyond the D model (such as the Super Tomcat 21, the cheaper QuickStrike version, and the more advanced Attack Super Tomcat 21) but the Super Hornet was chosen as the future Navy attack aircraft instead. Speculation was that Grumman felt they were the only serious option for the Navy to consider and quoted them an inflated estimate for building new F-14s (the airframes already in use were approaching the end of their lives). In an act of reprisal, then-Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney ordered Grumman to destroy the tooling and molds for the F-14. There is some debate whether the destruction was actually carried out in full, however Grumman was acquired by Northrop in 1994 (the F-14 was probably the only program keeping them in business), sealing the fate of the F-14.
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The tomcat brought me into aviation!!
My first model airplane, my first love..
:cry
I have nothing to live with now that the F-14 and the A-10 are gone!!
:cry :cry
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Wolfala,
You neglect to mention the other issues that sealed the 14's fate. Such as maintenance time and cost, two crew members, size, and cost to upgrade.
I do agree though that Cheney provided a big enough push that basically sealed the fate on top of other issues. Personally, I think the Hornet is a poor replacement for the Tomcat.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
I do agree though that Cheney provided a big enough push that basically sealed the fate on top of other issues. Personally, I think the Hornet is a poor replacement for the Tomcat.
Zippy the WonderJet can do it all... It replaced the A-7, the F-14, the A-6, the KA-6, the KS-3, and coming soon to an aircraft carrier near you, the EA-6B.
...all while carrying less ordnance, less fuel, and going slower. Woohah.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Wolfala,
You neglect to mention the other issues that sealed the 14's fate. Such as maintenance time and cost, two crew members, size, and cost to upgrade.
I do agree though that Cheney provided a big enough push that basically sealed the fate on top of other issues. Personally, I think the Hornet is a poor replacement for the Tomcat.
I could mention hundreds of factors - wouldn't change the fact that the final dick slap in the face was the destruction of tooling and now the cutting up of all the airframes for no reason - not even to hold them in reserve at Davis Monthan.
All I can say is, god help us if anything blows up in the Straights of Taiwan.
Wolf
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There are a fair number of 14's still in storage at Davis Mothan...
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It was time for the F-14 to go. It was an obsolete design by the 90s in regards to air to air combat.
F-14s used to have mock engagements with German Mig-29s. The only time the F-14s would win is when the Mig-29s would over-g and have to end the engagement.
F-14s were used more as Foward Air Controllers than they were as attack aircraft. When minimum altitude restrictions were in place over hostile territory, the 14 could use its LANTERN or TARPS pod to help identify targets. Then F-18s would be called in to attack the targets.
The F-14s huge, energy burning airframe was also a setback. In one instance in the Serbian air war, an F-14 was trying to evade a surface to air missle. After two or three turns, the F-14 ran out of airspeed and energy. The pilot reported watching the missle coming straight at him, not able to maneuver out of its way. By divine intervention, the missle exploded about 100 yards away.
Something would break on the Tomcat on every launch.
Source: "Black Aces High"- Chronicles of the F-14 in the Serbian Air War.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
It was time for the F-14 to go. It was an obsolete design by the 90s in regards to air to air combat.
:rofl
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
It was time for the F-14 to go. It was an obsolete design by the 90s in regards to air to air combat.
riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiight.
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I discussed the demise of the F-14 with a former F-14 Pilot Bill Johnson.
He is now retired Navy and in business. The F14 is better then the F18 for their designed roles.
Bill told me that the F14 is still the best standoff fighter for the fleet. F18 is cheaper in all areas...but doesn't do the job with the same effectiveness as the F14.
Can you say Politics? The parts for the F-18 are made in different states. So.....yes the F-14 is expensive but it still is the best stand off fighter for CV Task Forces. It still is the only fighter that can track and down 6 enemy at the same time from a range of up to 125 miles. Upgrades have been available. The Govt. or should I say Senators and Reps from the various states that are involved with making the F-18 want to keep the F-18 flying for their constituents sake. Has nothing to do with the F14 being better qualified for the job of CV defense.
Another wise decision by politicians who know little about defending anything but their public reputation.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
There are a fair number of 14's still in storage at Davis Mothan...
who can find them 1st on google earth?!?!?
on your marks,
get set,
go!!!!!!11
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OMFG too many F-11!1!!!111 i give up
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So the F-14 isnt even going to be used by the reserves?
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The F-14 is a sharp looking airplane. No doubt there
One of the guys I know flew em, he was backing up the F-14s that shot down the Libyans. He's got mixed feelings about the plane. He mentions the long sordid engine issues it had and how it wasnt anywhere as nimble as the newer planes (F-16, F-15, F-18, etc)
Effectively, you had a platform that had a really complex radar that fired a really really expensive long range missile (Phoenix) for fleet defense.
And the 18 hours maint per hour was a lot.
In that role, it served admirably. It was time for it to go.
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my local air national guard d00ds fly F-18s
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Originally posted by Hajo
Another wise decision by politicians who know little about defending anything but their public reputation.
That reminds me of the politicans who represent states that manufacture C-130s. the Air Force doesnt want em, yet they are forced to have em
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How was the F-14 the best stand-off fighter in the inventory? It was equipped with sparrow, sidewinder, and phoenix missles. Thats 2 short range fighter missles, and one long range bomber missle.
Certainly if a phoenix missle only had a 83% chance of hitting a non-maneuvering drone, it would have next to 0% chance of hitting a maneuvering fighter. And who knows how effective the phoenix was at anti-jamming? The AMRAAM, if jammed, will actually home in on the source that is jamming it. I doubt the ancient phoenix could do that.
At its prime, the F-14 only had a .91/1 thrust ratio. The F-16, F-15, and I believe F-18 all have that beat.
Air Force F-16s used to have mock engagements with F-14s. The F-14s were referred to as 'turkeys' because of their poor maneuverability. Also, the energy state the F-14 was broadcast by its wings.
Really, the only thing the F-18 lacks is range. Its proven itself in combat by performing air-to-air and air-to-ground in the same sortie. The biggest threat to Naval fighters now is shoulder-launched missles, which the -18 is more capable than the -14 at handling.
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Originally posted by mietla
Why would they do that? Is this a standard procedure?
no, just politics. you piss off a guy in power and he tries to ruin your company.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
How was the F-14 the best stand-off fighter in the inventory? It was equipped with sparrow, sidewinder, and phoenix missles. Thats 2 short range fighter missles, and one long range bomber missle.
Certainly if a phoenix missle only had a 83% chance of hitting a non-maneuvering drone, it would have next to 0% chance of hitting a maneuvering fighter. And who knows how effective the phoenix was at anti-jamming? The AMRAAM, if jammed, will actually home in on the source that is jamming it. I doubt the ancient phoenix could do that.
I thought its intended targets would be advancing USSR bombers.
You have to remember the time this thing was developed. Its rival was the F-111. Compared to that, its a markedly better fighter...and the FB-111 excelled at its low level strike role
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
How was the F-14 the best stand-off fighter in the inventory? It was equipped with sparrow, sidewinder, and phoenix missles. Thats 2 short range fighter missles, and one long range bomber missle.
Certainly if a phoenix missle only had a 83% chance of hitting a non-maneuvering drone, it would have next to 0% chance of hitting a maneuvering fighter. And who knows how effective the phoenix was at anti-jamming? The AMRAAM, if jammed, will actually home in on the source that is jamming it. I doubt the ancient phoenix could do that.
At its prime, the F-14 only had a .91/1 thrust ratio. The F-16, F-15, and I believe F-18 all have that beat.
Air Force F-16s used to have mock engagements with F-14s. The F-14s were referred to as 'turkeys' because of their poor maneuverability. Also, the energy state the F-14 was broadcast by its wings.
Really, the only thing the F-18 lacks is range. Its proven itself in combat by performing air-to-air and air-to-ground in the same sortie. The biggest threat to Naval fighters now is shoulder-launched missles, which the -18 is more capable than the -14 at handling.
Two different trains of thought at work. Keeping in mind that the Bombcat didn't come to fruition until after Gulf War 1 b/c of the A-6 retirement - the F-14's main job was Fleet Defense against Soviet bombers - running picket with AEGIS equipped cruisers.
Just because it had the AIM-9 and AIM-7 doesn't mean it couldn't fire the AIM-120 - it could, they just didn't see the need to do the software upgrade because it was decided the F/A-18E would be the primary focus.
Speaking from a ordinance delivery standpoint - losing the A-7 and A-6, left a HUGE gap in power projection against shore targets. The F-14 only carried bombs b/c the F/A-18 didn't have the legs, and they borrowed a couple of LANTRN pods from the USAF to add an ad-hoc bombing / FAC capability - to which it excelled with loiter times and ordinance carryback capability far exceeding the Hornet's.
If you are in the MA, log into Vox 169. Cyclic is a former F-14 driver, and was Commanding officer of VF-84 up to its decomissioning in the mid 90s. A highschool friend of mine is currently in VF-31 with the last of the Tomcats. LTJg Halligan.
S!
Wolf
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Ha, didnt know Cyclic flew those.
Kinda explains that monster F-14 handbook in PDF format he gave us a few months ago
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Originally posted by LePaul
Ha, didnt know Cyclic flew those.
Kinda explains that monster F-14 handbook in PDF format he gave us a few months ago
Actually...was me who gave ya that PDF.
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It was important to have a fighter with a long range missile like the AIM-54 for fleet defense, coupled with a very powerfull radar, and having a dedicated WSO also made it a more effective long/medium range bomber killer, being able to engage multiple radar targets at the same time. This was importrant to fend off large attacks against CV Battle Groups.
The F-18 does not have the same radar as the F-14, nor does it have the AIM-54, or the range, or the WSO. It can't do fleet defense as well. It can do some things better (fighter vs fighter).
As for being obsolete by the 1990s, no. The F-14s were upgraded several times, getting more powerful engines and better avionics, as well as better missiles.
Of course, no a/c can last forever, thats just reality, and it would have had to be replaced eventually.
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So, will F-14s end up in private hands the way F-86s, P-51s, and so on have? Or has there been a change in the laws that prevents them from being sold to folks with the appropriately deep pockets?
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
How was the F-14 the best stand-off fighter in the inventory? It was equipped with sparrow, sidewinder, and phoenix missles. Thats 2 short range fighter missles, and one long range bomber missle.
Certainly if a phoenix missle only had a 83% chance of hitting a non-maneuvering drone, it would have next to 0% chance of hitting a maneuvering fighter. And who knows how effective the phoenix was at anti-jamming? The AMRAAM, if jammed, will actually home in on the source that is jamming it. I doubt the ancient phoenix could do that.
At its prime, the F-14 only had a .91/1 thrust ratio. The F-16, F-15, and I believe F-18 all have that beat.
Air Force F-16s used to have mock engagements with F-14s. The F-14s were referred to as 'turkeys' because of their poor maneuverability. Also, the energy state the F-14 was broadcast by its wings.
Really, the only thing the F-18 lacks is range. Its proven itself in combat by performing air-to-air and air-to-ground in the same sortie. The biggest threat to Naval fighters now is shoulder-launched missles, which the -18 is more capable than the -14 at handling.
Either you have a boner for the 18 or a boner against the 14.
I dub thee "boner." :D :aok
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Uh ... what happened to the Iranian F-14s?
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Originally posted by Halo
Uh ... what happened to the Iranian F-14s?
When the Iran-Iraq War started in 1980, Iran's F-14s, equipped with Phoenix missiles, capable of identifying and destroying six targets simultaneously from a range of eighty kilometers or more, inflicted heavy casualties on the Iraqi air force, which was forced to disperse its aircraft to Jordan and Oman. The capability of the F-14s and F-4s was enhanced by the earlier acquisition of a squadron of Boeing 707 tankers, thereby extending their combat radius to 2,500 kilometers with in-flight refueling.
Iranian F-14 Tomcats were used like miniature AWACS, reporting Iraqi fighter operations to Iranian air defense commanders with their powerful radars. In response, Iraqi Mirage F1-EQ fighters flew high-speed, low-altitude profiles, well below the Tomcat's radar limits. The F1-EQ would pop up directly beneath the Tomcat's orbit, briefly illuminate the F-14 with its radar, and fire one or two air-to-air missiles at it. Iran lost several Tomcats this way.
Iran began the war with Hawk surface-to-air missile defenses, though these were largely for the defense of fixed military facilities. Iran's doctrine emphasized air defense using aircraft like the F-14A. Iran failed to use its Hawks effectively during the war, failing even to mount an effective point defense of key oil facilities. This may have been affected by the disruption following the Shah's fall. There were only a few confirmed Iranian Hawk kills of Iraqi aircraft.
By 1987, however, the air force faced an acute shortage of spare parts and replacement equipment. Perhaps 35 of the 190 Phantoms were serviceable in 1986. One F-4 had been shot down by Saudi F-15s, and two pilots had defected to Iraq with their F-4s in 1984. The number of F-5s dwindled from 166 to perhaps 45, and the F-14 Tomcats from 77 to perhaps 10. The latter were hardest hit because maintenance posed special difficulties after the United States embargo on military sales.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/airforce.htm
Not a hard find. :D
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Originally posted by Halo
Uh ... what happened to the Iranian F-14s?
I think a lot of folks believe that they are no longer airworthy due to a lack of parts. I've heard speculation that portions of their avionics may have been disabled by technicians working for the US, turning them into expensive General Aviation. Dunno if it's true.
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This is a good source of the iranian F-14
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S7875
The iranian F14 shot down more than 150 iraqi planes and VTOL in the 8 year Iran-Iraq war and only 2 (Iraqis claim 10 kills) F-14 were destroyed in air-to-air fights against the iraqis in the whole time.
Today the iranian F-14 got an new camo (i miss the old desert design) and are still flying.
Old desert camo
(http://www.sourehcinema.com/WebGallery/Film/OnTheSet/FullImageOnTheSet.aspx?PictureId=B8B3E837-4C82-4E55-984C-793BFA56C498)
New grey/darkgey camo:
(http://www.sourehcinema.com/WebGallery/Film/OnTheSet/FullImageOnTheSet.aspx?PictureId=4E9567AC-E6F6-4E44-914D-4852E995ABE3)
In the actual Zolstudmuffinhar-maneuvre iranian TV has shown formations of 2x 4 F-14 some days ago.
F14 are obsolete - but the plane is still a very impressive design.