Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: forHIM on September 15, 2006, 10:14:13 PM
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whoot -- loved the 3 minutes of tonight's action, unrealistic plane set for time period, launching p38s off a cv. Beautiful! What's next week going to bring? More realistic, fun filled action?
yes, a whine has been recorded.
This is not meant as a post against the Frame CIC. He did what he could with what he had.
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What the hell are 38's doing on a carrier.............?
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*nod*
My squad just goofed because of our own lack of experience with the aircraft assigned, so I can't fault anyone but me there...
Still, I agree, if you want to call it 1942, bring a 1942 planeset.
This was one of the most brutal FSO's I can remember and I've been at it for 3 years!
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Originally posted by mussie
What the hell are 38's doing on a carrier.............?
what the hell are ya doin on the bbs instead of flying FSO:furious
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Nightmares rolled 41 and within 5 mins there was 6 out of 16 left. I kind of disobeyed the attack order, and elected to run south and grab. A few others got out. We survived to re-fuel and get a couple more kills. Then we slowly got whittled down. I survived the frame (first in weeks) and think I got 1 kill and an assist.
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This was the worst frame I've seen in a while. What was the point of putting out orders if the plan was to jump us shortly after putting wheels in the wells? No joy on this one gents!
:(
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P38's off the carrier was a last minute change in my orders. I didn't like it either, but felt it necessary. I was told, and reminded that P38's would be allowed off the carriers. I was very concerned that we would not have enough assets to take Henderson field, so I used one squad. The worst case scenario in my mind was that the Axis launch superior numbers from A1 and A41, and the attack never gets through. Thus the big fighter sweep, and the intent to rearm and finish the job. The assets were there, I took down one hanger with the ship guns, took off 2nd life in a P38, killed a 2nd hanger, shot down a N1K2, then a second N1K killed me. Most of the rest of our squad died to Ack or low enemy fighters. The biggest problem was that I am not aware of a single other plane that managed to rearm and drop eggs on A1. Plane after plane landed, crashlanded, or were otherwise unable to take off again because of dammage. There were a few that I know of that tried to rearm at a field, but they never made it back to A1. Thank you for trying. I have to say that everyone did their best. The flow, control and direction on rearming was not very good, and I appologize for that. Better luck next frame.
Falcon and Axis.
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Longdist, I don't know what to say. I hear from people all the time that FSO is boring cause you spend all this time flying around with no action. Be happy you did enough to keep us from taking A1.
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So how do we know who won? Sorry, I'm new to FSO.
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Steve, 68KO will count the points up and post them here in a day or two. I can tell you though, the Axis kicked our fannies. I ran up the surrender flag, but Falcon shot that down too. :D
Falcon.
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Originally posted by doobs
what the hell are ya doin on the bbs instead of flying FSO:furious
At Work Mate Its Sunday 04:14 PM here
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Originally posted by TracerX
P38's off the carrier was a last minute change in my orders. I didn't like it either, but felt it necessary. I was told, and reminded that P38's would be allowed off the carriers.
Hey not that I was there but,
If it was a case of 38 launching willy nilly off the CV then I would be pretty pissed about it but if 38's comming off carriers was allowed then I have to say I dont see a problem Hell they Launched 26's in the doolittle raid....
FSO
One Day I Will Be Back
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Probably best in the future if we keep actual carrier ops limited to carrier aircraft. Bound to cause complaints. We saw V6 flash immediately and knew something was afoot. Then we saw the cloud of dots out at sea. When we saw 38s way over our heads was when we said huh?
Alot of the guys in our squad only seem to play AH for FSOs. They really look forward to friday nights. Seeing so many leave so early I felt bad for em. Please for the next one lets try to go for quality of the fight over going for the sure win. If its in the rules and all fine...but rule makers, please keep the event somewhat realistic and not geared towards allowing things that are out of the norm.
Im happy..I lived for a change :"P
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I came...
I saw...
I engaged...
then my plane fell apart. :lol
...i never fired a shot.
Ahh, the joys of flying Japanese aircraft.
And this after I repeatedly warned my guys that
the Ki-84 had a nasty tendency to shed parts. doh!
Had fun for the 3 minutes it lasted though.
David
343.Kokutai
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Think the whole point of why most like flying the FSO's is for historical plane sets and to refight WWII battles as they occurred.
If the whole reason was for instant fighting, than FT in the MA would accomplish that. There really isn't a reason to have 38's lifting off carriers. Many FSO's we've had to fly long distances from land because the planes we flew wasn't available on CV's.
Why have cv's start the frame so close that they can shell the base at the same time their fighter force is attacking planes that just took off 3 mins earlier?. Granted the allies came in force, and wiped us out fast and for that I the allies. I'm sure tracer that you can understand of how ridiculous the setup was. A restriction of 3 squads launching per CV which allows for the whole allies side to launch within mins of their target. No discernable way to counter (SB's, PT's). We were light nikis and your hvy fighter still had alt on us and we were grabbing from take off.
A6 was flashing before launch. My squad enjoys flying FSO's, but IMHO this frame was a forgone conclusion before it even launched. True, noone wants a 2 hours, no nmy sighted FSO, but do you really want a FT type scenerio either? In this case, why have not have fields in the same sector for euro FSO's, will save alot of time.
I'll round up the guys for the next frame, but under these type of circumstances we won't have no choice but to give up the defense just to grab south and have a fighting chance. I did try and call them off of 41 / 1 and just let the allies have it, but with a 4 to 1 ratio, could only get 3 out of the melee in the first 10 mins.
allies, you womp on us AK's good ;). But I have to admit, if we had known this, we would have given up 41 / 1 right at wheels up and headed south.
AKKaz
CO AK's
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Please for the next one lets try to go for quality of the fight over going for the sure win.
Check the logs and scores. Nothing sure about what you were facing.
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Next time, why don't we just put the Allies at one end of the airfield and the Axis at the other? The host gives the "Go" and we all just start taxiing and shooting. It would last about as long, with the same effect, without all that unnecessary flying. One more like this and I may as well find that old Quake III CD.
This was definitely the worst frame E V E R. I was out so fast my name didn't even register in the logs.
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Originally posted by 96Delta
I came...
I saw...
I engaged...
then my plane fell apart. :lol
...i never fired a shot.
Ahh, the joys of flying Japanese aircraft.
And this after I repeatedly warned my guys that
the Ki-84 had a nasty tendency to shed parts. doh!
Had fun for the 3 minutes it lasted though.
David
343.Kokutai
Man I miss that feeling.... I got it in OP downfall but I miss FSO
I still remember my first FSO combat chasing a Spitty in a 190? 109? with 1177 and another squady behind me (Made a great first film)....
In most other FSO's I got my arse handed to me, but thats ok because
1- Its not about the Kill
2- Its not about personal glory
3- Its not about how great a pilot i am (which I ain't)
Its is about
1- The Atmosphere
2- The Teamwork
3- The Challenge
Where else but FSO would you spend a full two mintues trying to slow down your bird when Ditching... (I made it lol) Now that is somthing I will never forget....
The only time I have ever had an adreneline rush is playing FSO, It Just takes AH to a different level...
FSO
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The 38's were allowed at the CV's because, the IJN had full use of all of there fighters from the CV to. N1K, Ki84, and Ki61, none of these are carrier AC, but they were flown from carriers just like the 38.
So to be fair the 38's were allowed to. I tested the 38 launching heavy off a carrier, and I had no problems getting off.
Sometimes doing something a little different can be fun, just ask HTC.;)
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sorry sled but i fly FSO becauses it suppose to be the one place the game is truly suppose to be a SIM and not a bs furball that we could get uping on any fighter town map.
half the fun for me in FSO is taking the time to get setup for the attack/defense of a objective. no milatary in the world would of launched AC so close to a nme field without having complete control of the air before hand thus this blew the whole frame into BS territory for me. forget about the 38's launching from a cv. we can make arguments both ways on this one. but a CV task group let alone 3 would of never got that close to a nme base in the real world before being spotted and attacked way before it got there.
tho i truly figured we would get wiped out by the axies forces tracer put enough AC in the area to overwhelm the defense.
this seems to be a continuation of the BS planning of the CM team that has been taking charge ever sense operation downfall as if that wasn't enough to show them that some tatical thought had to go into major squad operation style events.
sorry guys i do apreciate you wanting to give us some good action but to put togther a good FSO you got to take more time thinking things thru and to me one of the main questions you got to ask yourself when putting togther a op is would this even be considerd in a real world set up.
after all FSO is suppose to be based off of WWII fighting even if they are what if's
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Just my .02.... I 'lived' but busted up my plane on refuel. I would have been 'okay' with upping a 38 from a carrier but with a bomb, external, and within sight of the enemy upping?
I'm not going to criticize someones elses work that I've never done before but I will note that my preference in squad ops is to have the opportunity to form up, make a plan even if it's on the fly, and fly as a squad for a while.
Can we tweak this one before next Friday please?
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The issue is not about how “difficult” it would be to take P-38’s off a CV. My whole squad was able to.
The 38's were allowed at the CV's because, the IJN had full use of all of there fighters from the CV to.
That was the mistake on the part of the CM’s IMHO. Come on, you can’t even do that in the MA? What is next? P-51’s and Fw-190’s off CV’s? Maybe some RV8's to spice things up? Keep Squad Ops they way it was intended to be.
I sure hope you guys hearing what the players are posting? I agree with almost all of them. Filth said it well Alot of the guys in our squad only seem to play AH for FSOs. They really look forward to friday nights. Seeing so many leave so early I felt bad for em. Please for the next one lets try to go for quality of the fight over going for the sure win. If its in the rules and all fine...but rule makers, please keep the event somewhat realistic and not geared towards allowing things that are out of the norm.
When I first read my orders about taking off a P38 off a CV I assumed it was a mistake. When I wrote back it was confirmed. I was not happy about it at all. Nor was my squad, we did it anyway, but it sure left a bad taste in my mouth, and theirs. As others have posted I have guys that are here only for FSO. If this continues they will quit. I have already had rumblings of guys leaving.
Army aircraft off CV’s. Players allowed to man ack. Engaging the enemy in 2 minutes. This is worse than some of the issues we had last month.
Quit trying to try “new things guys”. Stick with what has worked over the years.
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Let me start by saying that I really appreciate the work that all the CM do to make FSO happen. Its a tough job that all too often goes unappreciated by the players who derive enjoyment from their scenarios and hard work.
I personally enjoy FSO more than any other aspect of AH because it is more than just a furball all the time. Historical accuracy, flying skill, teamwork and mission accomplishment rate high in my book. Unfortunately, last night's FSO was an exception to the rule.
I understand that last night was an effort to try something new and I applaud the overall concept of trying to keep FSO fresh and challenging.
However, I have to admit that I believe last nights "experiment" failed for several reasons:
1) Historical accuracy was violated at several levels in the scenario (e.g. - non-historical planeset for the period, landbased aircraft off carriers, proximity of forces at the start of the frame, etc.) Although many of these activities like landbased planes off carriers under combat conditions did occur (Doolittle Raid and P47s off Jeep carriers at Saipan that I know about), they were very rare occurrances.
2) Instant furball action rather than overall realism of play was the emphasis. Its interesting that even AH seems to have begun moving away from this concept a bit in the new MA areas. (BTW - I applaude that effort!)
3) For many of the participants, what had the potential to be a two hour event lasted no more than 5 minutes and perhaps that is the saddest part of all. All that hard work on the part of the CMs and so few got to really enjoy it.
I personally would rather see us stick with realistic scenarios even if it does mean we don't furball all the time and leave the whole "furball at all costs" mentality out of FSO all together. If a furball develops, all the better but lets not force them to instantly occur at wheels up.
Once again, my humble thanks to all the CM and I hope we learn from last night so that FSO only becomes more and more enjoyable.
Clear skys and smooth air to all!
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I apologize to any individuals that may believe this was an attack against them.
My comments are my own and should not be considered an endorsement of or by the CM Team as a whole or in part.
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With all the work you do on the AHEVENTS.ORG I think your entitled to say your piece mate.... :aok
Forhim
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No offense taken here ForHim, this one needs to be discussed.
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Originally posted by 332nd outlaw
tho i truly figured we would get wiped out by the axies forces tracer put enough AC in the area to overwhelm the defense.
To be fair, I put enough aircraft into the air to achieve pairity. The axis could have easily put 6 squads at A1 and A41 (instead of 4), with more pilots per squad. The tactical importance of A41 and A1 almost demanded such a defense. Falcon did not do that, and we ended up having a huge advantage. Anyone that takes a solid look at this scenario from the Allied point of view, you will find that there is little the Allies can do to avoid getting overwhelmed by the Axis. The only way for the Allies to gain pairity was to concentrate forces somewhere.
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Good post warlover, I could not have said it better myself, that is why I did not post until now.
Thanks for the effort, but frame 1 clearly did not improve FSO. Chalk it up as a lesson learned and bring on Frame 2. Go back to the tried and true, keep it simple.
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Originally posted by XPSteve
So how do we know who won? Sorry, I'm new to FSO.
you did great by the way
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I had a good time last night. Like it was said before, the CM's did what they could with what they had. I'm sure this frame was just one small bump in the road. I'd just hate to see people lose faith in FSO because of a frame wasn't really what it's supposed to be.
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Originally posted by daddog
Maybe some RV8's to spice things up?
Now you're talking daddog!
Would be an interesting "fantasy" FSO... :lol
Now gimmie my gatling gun! :D
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Thanks Dicho. I enjoyed my 1st FSO, they need to fix that pot hole in the runway at 35 though, almost hit it myself. ;)
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I don't mind the "what if" planeset that much. Honestly, it really isn't a what if planeset. It's pretty much the planes that were around during the retaking of the Philippines and after that. It doesn't bother me that we're using that planeset and flying it in the Slot and Guadalcanal. I would much rather have Wildcats vs Early Zekes, but that's just me. I do have fun with the later Pacific planes too.
The P-38s enabled on the CV, well, that did bother me. I didn't like it one bit. Taking off in visual range of the enemy. Didn't like that either. Knowing people who pretty much waited all week, or at least looked forward all week were getting shot down in the first 5 minutes of the frame, some without even having a chance? Well, disgusted might be too strong of a word, but then again, it describes the feeling well.
Please try to keep the setups and orders somewhat historical.
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Originally posted by TracerX
To be fair, I put enough aircraft into the air to achieve pairity. The axis could have easily put 6 squads at A1 and A41 (instead of 4), with more pilots per squad. The tactical importance of A41 and A1 almost demanded such a defense. Falcon did not do that, and we ended up having a huge advantage. Anyone that takes a solid look at this scenario from the Allied point of view, you will find that there is little the Allies can do to avoid getting overwhelmed by the Axis. The only way for the Allies to gain pairity was to concentrate forces somewhere.
Tracer
Never expected you to mass your carriers or place them where you did. It definately caused some antacid popping when I saw what was going on. :( The squads I assigned to defense where in my opinion very capable of fending off an attack and holding a fair portion of our bases, but obviously not the one you created. You caught us when we where most vunerable:aok
My plan was to have a massive second wave attack. We did and where able to finish destroying all bases and attack and sink most of the task forces.
If I had known your plan or had some inclination as to what you where thinking I am still not sure how I could have stopped your attack or lessened the intial onslaught.
Oh btw it was changed to 2 squads per base because I did not have enough squads to cover the first rule 3 per base. So intially yes there was 4 but 2 more otw from A9
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I could be wrong, and usually am ;), but axis putting most or all the forces at 41 not only took away the scenerio tasked orders but would just end up making it much more of a furball mentality than it was.
Setting all your forces in one area and taking off within sight of the nmy launch is easy when then what you are defending and attacking are in the same 15 mile area. In that case, why would we even need orders or for the staff to make any setup other than 1 square 25 mile map. And if this was known and the axis had put all there forces at 41 to counter, I can't beleive that one 10 minute massive furball would have been any fun for anyone, if I am to beleive all the MA complaint posts about it over the years.
This seems to be the trend since OP Downfall, scenerio "what Ifs" and some type of gamey aspect. We hear to many complaints about that in the MA, from noobs and vets alike. But to start the trend of this in the FSO's take out the entire purpose of having them. The FSO's are advertised as "relive historical battles and events". In the past FSO's stayed within that realm even to the possibility of one sidedness with very few complaints. It says alot when even those flying from the CV's have a hard time understanding it.
I agree with what Filth wrote, and with that said it may be hard to get some of the squad back in the FSO's with the current trend that has been happening lately. 4 or 5 of them I had just talked back into the sqd ops from some bad experiences like this from over a year ago.
to all involved in the setups, but please let's just keep one portion of AH to some reality and let the other arenas do as they want.
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Now you're talking daddog!
Would be an interesting "fantasy" FSO...
Now gimmie my gatling gun!
:p
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The voice of reason
New things are tried for the FSO community with best intentions.
will not always happen, but FSO will always be a work in progress.
Trial and error, every event has had its complaints but the idea has always been in the right place, to make FSO enjoyable to all.
When we do the same old same old the complaints of new ideas is handed out, and when new ideas unfold new complaints arrise.
The CM staff will find a way:aok
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Originally posted by doobs
The voice of reason
It is never a good idea to dub yourself the 'voice of reason'.
Post your thoughts and let others decide of you are the voice of reason... To do otherwise is pretense.:D
I'm sure Fidel Castro thinks he is the voice of reason... I'm sure Osama thinks he is the level headed one.
Let history decide, never assign your own title.
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hey Kurt,
WhenI'm drinkin I can be the voice of anything i want.
Voice of Voltron
Voice of Kotex
Voice of DNA
Voice of Snap Crackel Pop
Voice of GI Joe
Voice of Kurt
Voice of Democracy
Voice of McDonalds
Voice of Reason(phffft yeah right reason ya got me there)
Voice of the subway conductor
Voice of the polarity of the krispie
Voice of the new world order(lead by me ofcourse)
Voice of all Voices
So it be written so it be Told.:p
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Voice of abused sheep? (That should come naturally.............)
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Originally posted by doobs
The voice of reason
New things are tried for the FSO community with best intentions.
will not always happen, but FSO will always be a work in progress.
Trial and error, every event has had its complaints but the idea has always been in the right place, to make FSO enjoyable to all.
When we do the same old same old the complaints of new ideas is handed out, and when new ideas unfold new complaints arrise.
The CM staff will find a way:aok
Well Doobs, I don't know if you are THE voice of reason. :p
But I agree with all you said in the rest of the post.
TY
:)
Remember folks, we (the CM team) are people with faults just like anyone else (plainly obvious). Nobody on the CM team claims to but perfect, and we are going to mess up. constructive feed back is always a help, and I know I always read the constructive comments. We may not always take and use every idea that comes along, but we listen to all, and try to use your collective comments to better FSO (and other events).
However, complaints without a solution, and threats of leaving FSO, although troubling, are of little help. We don't want anyone to leave FSO because they had a bad time at an event. But you have to admit we (CM team) can't run around trying to fix things just because someone says they are going to leave. I am sure anyone can see the danger in that. We do want people to stick with us through the good and the bad and try to help us make FSO what most people want it to be.
Fun for all, something people want to attend.
We have tried some new things in the last few months. Some of you haven't liked it, and that's OK. I can guarantee all of you that the things that have been tried have been in an effort to bring some new fun to the FSO community. Some of it might work, and some...... well..... Hey we tried.
Post your comments, try to be understanding about what we are doing, we want to hear what you have to say about an event. We aren't going to do everything that everyone of you suggest, that would be madness. but we are going to read those thoughts, and they are going to be considered.
Don't threaten to leave, that is absolutely useless, and is of no value except to tell us someone is pissed. If you really care about FSO you would be more interested in staying and helping to make FSO better.
We have a lot of new people on the CM team, we are working on it, this isn't easy, give us time we'll figure it out.
:)
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Sled,
I don't think anyone think's its easy...
But the reason we fly FSO is to get the realism we can't get in Main.
Sometimes realism means you fly for 2 hours and never see a bandit. Sometimes realism means you get shot down fast.
Sometimes realism means that you are outnumbered and flying inferior planes.
Realism HURTS!
We want that.
Getting killed because someone wanted to tweak history isn't fun.... But getting killled because someone modeled history is BIG FUN.
Don't let anyone tinker with the fundamental history... If it was slow sucky planes at the real fight, then thats what we want to fly.
We want to feel it, smell it, suffer it. We want to be there. More or less as it was.
We don't want hot rides, quick fights, and guaranteed victory... We want to be challenged.
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Good comments, noted, Thank you.:)
(excellent sig. BTW)
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Don't want to beat the horse, but...
Why not do a Midway, Coral Sea, Bismark Sea, New Guinea, etc scenario? I know the plane sets are limited, maybe even a little bit boring. I thought the same thing about the Malta FSO after flying the Hurri I 3 weeks in a row. But, it was an enjoyable and competitive couple of weeks of flying. I really enjoyed that Solomons fight last month as well.
I'd love to fly F4F against Zeros, but finding that fight in the MA('s) is practically impossible--not to mention times when taking up SBD's, Kates, Vals, TBM's, etc. is the only way to bang down some targets...
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Now again I was not there, so I dont know the whole story. but to determine if things were done correctly I think that you just need to examine the FSO Rules
(http://members.optusnet.com.au/vstrom/CM/FSO%20Rules.jpg)
The purpose of the Friday Squad Operations is to:
1- Provide players with an environment of fair play.
2- As seen in a historical light.
This historical environment of fair play may include:
Strategies, tactics and logisticsThat were used during World War II.
So in this case
1- Was the enviroment fair ?
I think the over all enviroment of the frame (IE: for bot sides as a whole) as there will always be somone or some squad that is sacrificed by need, chance or Command error)
2- Was the enviroment historical ?
To be historical the frame needs to have used Strategies, tactics and logistics That were used during World War II.
- Were P38's ever launched from CV's...?
I almost quit AH when I stopped playing FSO (I actually sent an email to AH support asking to close my account Skuzzy replied and said I could do it from with in the game. When I logged on to cancel my account. I ended up logging in to play ) So I hope that when I finnaly return to Active FSO Duty it is the same as it was when I left.
All
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Originally posted by SLED
Well Doobs, I don't know if you are THE voice of reason. :p
But I agree with all you said in the rest of the post.
TY
:)
Remember folks, we (the CM team) are people with faults just like anyone else (plainly obvious). Nobody on the CM team claims to but perfect, and we are going to mess up. constructive feed back is always a help, and I know I always read the constructive comments. We may not always take and use every idea that comes along, but we listen to all, and try to use your collective comments to better FSO (and other events).
However, complaints without a solution, and threats of leaving FSO, although troubling, are of little help. We don't want anyone to leave FSO because they had a bad time at an event. But you have to admit we (CM team) can't run around trying to fix things just because someone says they are going to leave. I am sure anyone can see the danger in that. We do want people to stick with us through the good and the bad and try to help us make FSO what most people want it to be.
Fun for all, something people want to attend.
We have tried some new things in the last few months. Some of you haven't liked it, and that's OK. I can guarantee all of you that the things that have been tried have been in an effort to bring some new fun to the FSO community. Some of it might work, and some...... well..... Hey we tried.
Post your comments, try to be understanding about what we are doing, we want to hear what you have to say about an event. We aren't going to do everything that everyone of you suggest, that would be madness. but we are going to read those thoughts, and they are going to be considered.
Don't threaten to leave, that is absolutely useless, and is of no value except to tell us someone is pissed. If you really care about FSO you would be more interested in staying and helping to make FSO better.
We have a lot of new people on the CM team, we are working on it, this isn't easy, give us time we'll figure it out.
:)
nobody thanks other wise sled. but thier are those that believe that the Cm team is blowing them off when things like this keep happening over and over again. you call them experiments trying new things. well i have no problem with that but when the new thing is a old thing in the MA without any way one could argue that it would of been done in the real world. like i said in my first post 38's off carriers could be argued either way but other asspects of this setup would not even had been considerd or if had been would of been a quick demotion in the real world. i also have a problem with your statement that you read every constructive comments. not everyone is skilled in the the art of properly comunicating thier feelings. if you truly want to know what the communitty is thinking you got to read the nonconstructive ones too. it's a way to get a feel for just how frustrated the communitty is. not all people that post this type of comment is pissed they just not sure how to word it so that you get the level of frustration they are having therefor a post thats comes off as one of being pissed is one of comunicating what they are frustrated over even if they have no idea on how to fix it. after all if we could all do the CM job then there would be no shortage of new ops in the works. after all if HTC didn't pay attition to this side of the feedback channel he wouldn't be to conserend with most the threads on the current changes of the MA.
i also wonder where you see threats of leaveing i looked back in this thread and the only comments about people leaveing are from CO.s of squads. trust me these are not threats. people are feed up well past the point of being pissed. the co's well i know atleast the CO of the squad i fly with have been dealing with these rumblings for sometime now. it is to the point to where i know myself have a true feeling that someone wants more the prestige of being a FSO CM then the responsability that comes with it.
noone thinks that the job of being a FSO CM is easy. we know that the headachs that come with it are massive but this last frame was to the point to where to give a person the thought that someone sat down threw it togther at the last minute just to have one to fly.
anyway i can tell you from my pooint of view what i am frustrated with most is two fold.
first and formost is the tottal lack of realism that has been coming threw not only in this frame but in severl asspects of the OPs that have been coming down the pike.
second is what i precieve is the failure on the part of the CM team to listen to others that have knowledge in what they are doing and thus ending up with fiasco's like those that have been happening.
edit" ya i know my grammer and spelling are bad.
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Remember folks, we (the CM team) are people with faults just like anyone else (plainly obvious).
Ya, but your never supposed to admit it Sled. ;)
edit" ya i know my grammer and spelling are bad.
Ya, but you made a good point outlaw. :cool: Besides I can't poke fun at anyones spelling. Not without Nifty, or Wklink getting on my back.
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Originally posted by SLED
(excellent sig. BTW)
Thanks, It was Eisenhower...
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Originally posted by Kurt
Sled,
I don't think anyone think's its easy...
But the reason we fly FSO is to get the realism we can't get in Main.
Sometimes realism means you fly for 2 hours and never see a bandit. Sometimes realism means you get shot down fast.
Sometimes realism means that you are outnumbered and flying inferior planes.
Realism HURTS!
We want that.
Getting killed because someone wanted to tweak history isn't fun.... But getting killled because someone modeled history is BIG FUN.
Don't let anyone tinker with the fundamental history... If it was slow sucky planes at the real fight, then thats what we want to fly.
We want to feel it, smell it, suffer it. We want to be there. More or less as it was.
We don't want hot rides, quick fights, and guaranteed victory... We want to be challenged.
I couldn't have said it better myself. I concur.
The primary gripe I have with the last FSO (besides the whole P38 off carriers thing) was the immediate nature of the furballing. No time to form up, no time to wing up and no time to set up any kind of tactics.
As well, for some (a lot?) of the squad members that participate in the FSO (some exclusively), it is partly a social and 'steam-letting-off' experience where we goof about while forming up and getting ready for the encounter. Some may see it as boring, but I think it lends very much to squad bonding, comraderie and the perception of 'belonging'. When you up and immediately fly into a furball, that portion of the experience no longer exists. Furballing like that can be done any night of the week in the MA's, the only difference being the planesets.
I'd like to see more FSOs that are geared towards fair fights (yes that means balancing sides/planesets), realism, and clearer objectives, without leaning towards instant action. That's what snapshots are for, right?
I want to also say that this is in no way meant to be a slam on anyone, and also that I truly appreciate all the effort and time that the CM staff puts into the events. One day I hope to be there with you, taking the same crap I'm dishing out now. :)
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Sled sir, no one knows any better than myself just how hard it is to run a Squad Ops frame. Frankly I don't see this as a problem with how the frame was run. But as a major deficiency in how the frame was planned.
All anyone has to do is go back & look at any of the many Squad ops setups that daddog has written. I've yet to see one that was not inherantly fair, well setup, and as a result, easy to run. Most were incredibly popular, and helped bring FSO to the event that it is today.
Anytime you have people taking off less than 25 miles away from the enemy you should be hearing alarm bells & seeing red flags go up. Like it or not someone is going to end up being unhappy. Same is true for planes rolling from carriers that could not and did not do so.
If this is truly representative of the current state of FSO, then the entire CM corp needs to take a long hard look at themselves. Redefine what their goals are, and make sure that each and every frame is setup so both sides have an equal opportunity to do well. Anything less is simplly not a level playing field, and anyone promoting anything other than that does not have the good of the community at heart.
Granted I have been away for the last few months so I don't know whats been going on. But I'm hearing an awefull lot of rumbling in the background. And thats never a good sign, ever.
Without at least a somewhat level playing field. And a bit of time to get in the air & get organized FSO is no better than a main arena furball. FSO used to be the best flying you could get in AH, I'd hate to think that is no longer the case.
And don't misunderstand me please. I have no axe to grind, I'm not looking to do a hatchet job on any individual or group of CM's. I KNOW the job, and all its headaches. I also know that sometimes a group can get emmmm, off course lets say. And sometimes it takes other people saying something to point it out.
At the end of it all what we all want is an active and interesting FSO. One thats fair for everyone playing. In my opinion the last frame never should have left the drawing board, it had problems, lots of them. If I can expect more of the same in the next frame frankly I doubt I'll fly it. Its simply not worth the agrivation. While I'll admit that the changes in the Main sparked my return, it was the Fri night squad ops that I really missed.
To come back after some months of being away to this last frame, well it was a severe let down at best.
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Hit the brakes and walk away.
FSO rocks always has always will, ya gotta tinker if ya want to improve.
Trial and error
Lets all re-remember this is all volunteer time
lets try and maintain
Voice of Howard Cosell
Voice of donald duck
Voice of Al Haig
Voice of Sheep
Voice of Democracy
Voice of Porn
Voice of Football
Voice of the NJ Devils
Voice of Kosher pork
Voice of Roy Rogers
Voice of absuridy(sp)
Voice of spelling
Voice of I suck
Voice of Lem Motlow
Voice of Lynchburg Tenn.
Voice of the Bada Bings
Voice of the Voice
comon guys don't drag it down, a few and original comments are needed
to help the FSO, not an Congressional hearing.
FSO:aok
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Originally posted by 68KO
beep beep
you'll notice if you rally take the time to read the post that this has gone past the 332nd but as i have already pointed out it is more then apperant that the current CM team has no desire to even listen to what others have to think.
this was really apperant in the op downfall when the co's had problems with the set up and where blown off till they saw that there wasn't even going to be a frame 2 unless things changed but hey if the fact that there used to 250 or so players in FSO and is now lucky to pull 200 doesn't open your eyes to the the fact that something is wrong then your not blind but just pruposely ingnoring the facts.
now you can right this off as one groups whine if you want but it will be your mistake. we have been flying HTC flight sims scince the beta of WB but hey what the hell we don't know anything. now i tried to be diplomatic in my speaking of my thoughts but if you want to insist that your right and we are wrong then you have done but put the final nail in FSO and all events for me.
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Originally posted by doobs
Hit the brakes and walk away.
Good Advice Doobs.
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Originally posted by 68KO
beep beep
wow, I don't really know where to begin here KO. I read a few names besides 332nd in this thread. I also know of a couple of CM's (besides forHIM) who were not too happy.
You going to talk to them like that? I have been playing this game for 5 freaking years, longer than you. I know what this event is about and have run FSO as a CM on two occasions.
In other words I am qualified to comment on it and know what I am talking about. You sir, are a CM, and have been for a while. You may be trained but like many of your CM's you either forgot what daddog told you or CHOSE to ignore it.
That is why you are reading these complaints. That is why Nef read them after frame 3 of Downfall. Get it right or get the hell outta the game man. There is that simple enough .. you don't want to hear me complain, then don't give me a reason.
And if you will read my previous posts 68KO you will see how I was not imflamatory, and in fact even mentioned that some of your MISTAKES did not really bother me.
What I am upset about is your last post, it is not what you would expect from a CM ... but then again neither was Frame 1, so I guess two wrongs don't make a right.
Hell maybe you are right, maybe it is just me. Count me out of FSO.
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OK hit the Parking Brake too.
This will not solve anything, this will only tear FSO down.
Like listening to my mommy and daddy argue right before there divorce 25 years ago.
Don't make me start stealing Cars again for attention.
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Originally posted by doobs
Don't make me start stealing Cars again for attention.
That may be a good thing at this point. Hell I'll join ya...SHOTGUN!
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Originally posted by Nefarious
That may be a good thing at this point. Hell I'll join ya...SHOTGUN!
You can only join me if you meet one of the criteria.
1. Ya know how to do it
2. Ya got drugs or alcohol(both prefered)
3. Ya got hot women with ya
otherwise I Steal Alone YEAH all by myself, I prefer to Steal alone with nobody else.
Alittle George there
One Boubon , one scotch, and one FSO.
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Ghost, I felt exactly the same. I've been out of FSO since February and had built my squad (mostly new guys) up on what it was...
It wasn't.
I felt kinda bad having to tell them 'Thats not what its normally like, lets just work through the frames and hopefully the next one will be better.'
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Nef I need a hug
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Originally posted by doobs
this will only tear FSO down. Like listening to my mommy and daddy argue right before there divorce 25 years ago.
I didn't realize the problems with FSO went back that far...
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beep beep.
Whoa there :) Every player that attends FSO has the right to input their views into FSO. The CM team designs them but it's important to respect the players that Participate.
That doesn't mean that Every player will get their way, there are some things that go on behind the scenes that make the event go off the way it does, so it's inevitable that someone won't like the outcome, that's just the way it goes.
Downfall is a great example, there were many people who Wanted the chance to run that again with the original settings, and some who Didn't like it. Can't please everyone, but that doesn't mean it was 100% Wrong if you didn't like it or 100% Right if you did. But that didn't stop 100% of the participants from having Input.
I think this ones just about run it's course. There has been more time spent fighting than spent on discussing and solving problems. I don't care What anyone thinks the problem is, it sure won't be solved this way. There's not a single CM that doesn't have the ability to move beyond this, nor a single squad that is disposable and I am willing to lose.
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Please STOP(in fetal postion)
Don't even think about it ROC you'll violate your parole
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Originally posted by 68KO
beep beep
That was uncalled for
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Please STOP
That was my Point doobs :)
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What if I told you I had I'll three Doobs:)
Anyway.
There is not much I can add to this. Matter of fact there is very little. The problems with Frame 1 have been discussed and should be eliminated in Frame 2.
It seems people have already made up there minds, and the proverbial lines have been drawn, the beginning of these lines started some time ago.
I could probably give you an exact date but that date but it would mean little for those who are not members of the CM Team.
All I can do is apologize, learn from some failures and move on. If you can't accept that, then maybe you do need to move on and head somewhere else.
I mentioned on our Private forum that this is not new, and from time to time problems come up. And I think Skernsk was out of context when he mentioned Downfall as I think he meant to mention my last FSO, Maltese Miracle.
But thats besides the point, I'm sure Skernsk can recall some bad decisions he has made as made as a CM, Just like I can, just like 68KO can, just like any other CM or former CM can.
I reccomend everyone reading this post to view the Squad Ops forum from the beginning, I did today, Not every post, but enough to see that FSO has never been flawless. Or exempt from problems or changes in its design. Some problems stemmed from the CiC's orders, others were derived from the actions of the CMs. But I tell you what, all of the problems were adressed to some extent and people moved on and FSO still exists today. If it hadnt, we wouldnt be carrying on this conversation in this forum at this late hour.
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Ok Guys
This thread is not healthy.
I think my Drunken, Foul Mouthed Leader is correct in saying Hit the brakes and walk away......
From those of you that I know I think that most of the FSO players and CM Team are mature adults, we all loose our cool sometimes and need to step back before we say somthing in anger that we regret later...
Go to the EW Arena and shoot down some red guys, blow off some steam.
Only then can you effectively resolve any issues that need to be looked at.
Later All
Doobs.
CM Team (Retired And Active).
FSO Squads.
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Err...
I see outlaw quoting 60KO but not his original post. That's weird. I hope he took it down himself and wasn't censored, because that was a really lame post and I hope he realizes it.
I think we are all very aware that the CM team is an all-volunteer thing. I also think that most of us realize that there will never be unanimous agreement on what is good and what is bad.
However, I think that the majority of the posts made here would be indicative of the general response to a particular Squad op.
Hopefully the CM staff also realizes that the sole purpose of their efforts is to entertain the participants.
There seems to be quite a bit of animosity towards daddog and some other 332 members, and I can't speak to that, I'm not aware of past interaction, but I think it would be best for all parties to drop as much of that silliness as possible.
Daddog is looking after the interests of his squad, and when the squad as a whole has a problem with what's going on he's going to speak up, retired CM or not, whatever his past connections. It's what I did as a CO and what I would expect a CO to do.
If you don't care what the squads think about the ops, why are you even doing it?
Someone please install a breathalyzer on doobs' PC. :lol
Don't drink and post!@
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Please allow me to interdict here and say.......................... ................
.........................noth ing :)
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Aww jeez, if yer gonna remove KO's post you shoulda removed mine too.
Now it looks like I got my thong underwear on backwards or something.:huh
At any rate. Nef you are right, I made several mistakes. Some of them could have been avoided.
Lock the thread, remove all my posts and y'all have fun Friday
:aok