Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Halo on September 15, 2006, 10:26:21 PM
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Among the biggest surprises of the thread Sig vs. Glock was the number of people who prefer model 1911 pistols. Tonight I finally fired one, a Kimber Classic Custom .45, and I was impressed.
It was not at all like the old Air Force .45s with their hard trigger pulls. Somehow even the Kimber recoil seems much more pleasant.
Before with a .45 I always wound up getting tired and starting to flinch, but the smooth Kimber action and trigger made the 50-round box disappear all too quickly. The ammo was Atlanta Arms & Ammo 45 ACP .230 grain TCJ.
When I fire a rental gun, I always follow up with my own Ruger Security-Six .357/.38 revolver for comparison, usually just with .38s. This time I was surprised that the Kimber .45 1911 outshot my .38 in comparable single action trigger pull. Never thought that could happen.
What got me interested in Kimber was several of the range guys carrying Kimber .45s as their personal weapons. One told me he thought the Kimbers were better shooters because of the way the grip safety encouraged a better hold.
The range guys continue the debate of Sig vs. Glock and add Kimber and Springfield to the equation.
I particularly like the total single-action trigger pull of the Kimber 1911 version. Some people like the DA/SA of Sigs, some like the uber safe total DA of Glocks, and some prefer the total SA of Kimbers. Count me among the latter.
The 1911 safeties also seem logical and doable for me. Traditional slide safety and grip safety. In home defense use, I'd go that extra step and not put a shell in the chamber.
But even with carry use like range personnel, I'll never get used to seeing loaded holstered semiautomatics with their hammer cocked, no matter what kind of safeties they have.
So in my personal large caliber handgun recent firings, I score best and feel best using single action in my own Ruger Security-Six .357 Magnum revolver, the Kimber Classic Custom .45, and the Sig P229 .40. I did not shoot as accurately with any of the totally double action Glocks: the 21 .45 caliber, the 22 40-caliber, or the 31 357 Sig.
And what's puzzling, my own .38 revolver accuracy is erratic, sometimes good and sometimes mediocre. I've usually fired the .38 after testing one of the pistols, so maybe that's a factor.
Non 1911ers need not reply, but how about a quick roll call of you shooters who prefer 1911 models over all other handguns and which brand you recommend.
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I was content with my Glock 22 until I shot my friends Kimber Tactial Custom. Im sold on the 1911 now. Care to float me a loan?:D
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Yeah, Kimbers are pricey. One solution might be time shares like a vacation condo. Naw, would take forever transferring everything dealer to dealer, and costs would soon be more than the gun. :confused:
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After shooting a friends Caspian 1911, I decided to get a 1911 for myself. I just purchased a Dan Wesson Commander Bobtail 1911. I will shoot it for the first time tomorrow. I was very close to getting a Kimber, thanks to lazs and others recomendation. However, when I saw and handled the Bobtail, I knew it was the one for me. Of course I researched it and all sources praised the Dan Wessons (recently bought by CZ). I always thought 1911s were over-rated. I was wrong.
Here is a pic of the Bobtail:
(http://www.cz-usa.com/data/productimg/main066.png)
http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=66 (http://www.cz-usa.com/product_detail.php?id=66)
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I prefer my 1911 to a revolver, which will probably not surprise lazs.
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I have an HK USP 45, but enjoy shooting my buddy's Colt Goverment Model often. I will be getting a Kimber eventually. They are nice guns. Fit and Finish are tough to beat, IMO, they exceed Les Baer for 1/2 the cost.
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Mine is a Springfield 1911A1 plain Jane, stock, no modifications and I like it just fine.
Easier to haul around than the Ruger .44 Mag I had years ago and much easier shooting than my Dads S&W Model 66 .357.
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1911................
Springfield trophy match
Colt commander (redone)
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I've never shot one but I always liked the design. It's definately one of the handguns I would own if I was to start shooting as a hobby.
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Anyone shot a Springfield XD .45 yet?
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Originally posted by g00b
Anyone shot a Springfield XD .45 yet?
Not yet. Checked one out the other day at the shop and liked the feel of it very much.
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<------- Major 1911 fan. The Kimber is probably the top of the line in "production" (Kimber is really a custom piece, their stuff really isn't production in the sense that S&W or Springfield is) guns. The Dan Wesson is a very nice weapon as well, they have several versions that are built with true top of the line upgrade parts. I've built a couple of nice homebuilt hot rods, but it has been a few years. My brother has a nice Para Ordnance P-14 45, it's a 1911 based weapon with 14 round capacity. Not for people with average or smaller hands, but a real nice sweet shooting high capacity 1911 45. Springfield builds some nice ones as well. You can buy a low end Springfield and afford to put some really nice pieces on it. And one final way of doing it, if you have access to a mill and some other shop equipment, is to buy an "85%" grip frame kit, and get the pieces you want to finish it. An "85%" kit never has a serial number and the BATFE never gets to know you because of it. They're not cheaper to build, but you fit it all yourself, and you pick your components.
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One thing to be aware of. As I stated in the other thread, the 1911 is a true WAR weapon. It is designed to kill the enemy in large numbers. You need to realize that the 1911 single action requires that you confront any attacker with a cocked hammer and a VERY short throw 3.5# trigger. So long as you are fully familiar with and capable of the 1911 manual of arms, you'll be fine.
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(http://www.taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?id=59&category=Pistol)
Haven't fired one yet but I plan on it. I've always been impressed with Taurus handguns. Their unlimited lifetime warranty can't be beaten either.
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For a weak round that is easily reloaded.. the .45 is a good round and the Kimber is the best deal on the planet... maybe the taurus will be good who knows?
The 45 is a weak low rcoiling round for close range work and there is no better trigger than the 1911 and... out of the box... the Kimber is darn hard to beat. They don't have any problems either....revolver like in accuracy and reliability. I shoot mine often and like it a lot.
It will never replace my 44 mags as an all around gun or the 357 as a carry gun but the old 1911 is one sweet gun... it feels right in my large mitts and it works flawlessly with the slow, fat 45.
It also has some heft and the workmanship on the newer guns like the Kimber is so fine that it imparts a feeling of pride of ownership that I just can't dredge up for the plastic guns.
I know it is safe to carry cocked and locked but I don't... I have seen too many that were holstered with the safety on and it wasn't on later.
I carry mine with one in the chamber and the hammer down. I actualy don't like the big beavertail safeties and I like the old arched mainspring housing and the normal hammer.
lazs
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Kimber 1911's are beautiful firearms. If you don't mind the $1000+ price tags on them, then they are an excellent firearm to purchase.
Terror
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my first pistol is a Colt 1911 Gvt model. i love it. its had some trigger work and a few other things done to it. also have a Glock 22 that i use at work. a Kel-Tech .380 for my carry gun. pickin up a Sig 229 .357 next week. 1911 will always be my favorite though.
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Originally posted by lazs2
snip
I know it is safe to carry cocked and locked but I don't... I have seen too many that were holstered with the safety on and it wasn't on later.
I carry mine with one in the chamber and the hammer down. I actualy don't like the big beavertail safeties and I like the old arched mainspring housing and the normal hammer.
lazs
Yup, yup, and yup. Me too.
culero (also likes .44MAG best overall, but 1911 for carry)
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this is my 1911
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g66/moneyshot198/100_0188.jpg)
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culero is obviously a man of high character and great insight.
lazs
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I dont have much experience with pistols, but I've fired a few.
My friend has a springfield 1911, and I absolutely love it. It fits in my hand better than anything else. I love the single action. Simple and always ready. The safety does block the hammer (but please correct me if Im wrong) so it's relatively safe to carry cocked.
Rob Burke of Robs guns in denver just retired at the begining of the summer. He was a sniper working under the office of the president in Vietnam (yes, independent of military branch). He swears by them and has been competing with them for years. His primary carry is a combat commander.
A few trinkets of 1911 wisdom he shared with me and my friends (some basic some a little less) :
Always double tap mag to make sure its seated well.
Never pull hammer with your thumb. Use slide to rack it. Over time it will wear and you'll get wobble in your hammer.
Always dry fire, never ease hammer back with thumb. Over time it will wear the sear pin and eventually you will load a mag, hit the slide release and find your mag emptying itself! He was particularly adamant about this. If you want to carry loaded with the hammer down, take care not to let parts rub slightly when lowering the hammer. Also, and this is me questioning, what are the chances of a hammer that is sitting on the firing pin discharging if it is knocked or hit with something?
Some day I hope to be able to afford a 1911 of my own. For the simplicity and number on the market they are still quite expensive, but the quality is awesome. Nothing fits my hand better. Still, 9mm is cheaper ammo, and that's a factor in my budget too. 10 years from now when I can afford it I'll post a picture of whatever I get.
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1911 fits me rather well too. Plus it has all the things in a pistol that I want.
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Back when I carried most of the time, my primary piece was a 70series Colt GoldCup in .45ACP, slightly tricked out.
My backup was a Glock 23 in .40S&W
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I've become resigned to the fact that I'll always shoot better with a revolver than a semi-auto. But one thing I've learned from experience is that whether its a wheelgun or a brass chucker, I HATE double action guns. I dont like the feel of them. My 1911A1 satisfies my liking for the single action feel, is simple and straightforward to operate and care for, and durable. Almost as good as my revolvers. :)
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1911's usually have a semi-cocked position. keeps the hammer slightly off the pin.
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DA / SA ones yes. A true SA 1911 does not (that I know of).
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I like the 1911, but have fired many others I really enjoyed and found comfortable to shoot.
Sigs have always pleased me.
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1911 I have is fun.....but the concealed carry is a Glock 10mm subcompact with 10 round mag (bought during magazine limits.... still carried cause there are still hyper-reactionary rabid DA's out there that still hate mags over 10 rounds......).
Sold on the Glock for when it counts. The 1911 "feels" more natural, and is more fun, but not the one for concealed carry.
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68.. the 1911 uses an inertia firing pin. This simply means that the pin is too short to touch the primer with the hammer down... the hammer has to strike the pin and send if flying (like crocket) for it to work.
I lower the hammer with my thumb or fingers but have the trigger all the way back to get past the notch.
If thumbing back the hammer wears it out or letting it down does... you got a gun that was never worth having.... all single action revolvers spend countless thousands of times doing just that.
The 1911 is not that delicate.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
68.. the 1911 uses an inertia firing pin. This simply means that the pin is too short to touch the primer with the hammer down... the hammer has to strike the pin and send if flying (like crocket) for it to work.
I lower the hammer with my thumb or fingers but have the trigger all the way back to get past the notch.
If thumbing back the hammer wears it out or letting it down does... you got a gun that was never worth having.... all single action revolvers spend countless thousands of times doing just that.
The 1911 is not that delicate.
lazs
Concur.
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
DA / SA ones yes. A true SA 1911 does not (that I know of).
the SA one the i have that was built in 1995 has a semi-cocked position as does the one my grandfather has that he carried in WWII. both are made by Colt. the only difference i see between them as far as operation is, the newer one has a button under the slide that locks the firing pin from hitting the primer unless the trigger is pulled. my grandfathers doesn't have that.
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you are talking about the "safety notch" it is a holdover from non rebounding firing pins on the old single action revolvers.
It is not a safe way to carry a non rebounding pin gun as the notch and trigger are very thin and not sturdy. a blow to the back of the hammer will simply break the sear.
I carry the 1911 that way cause the kimber uses the commander hammer that is hard to get a thumb on quickly... having the hammer back that little bit makes it eaiser for me to thumb back the hammer,
lazs
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Originally posted by 68Hawk
I dont have much experience with pistols, but I've fired a few.
My friend has a springfield 1911, and I absolutely love it. It fits in my hand better than anything else. I love the single action. Simple and always ready. The safety does block the hammer (but please correct me if Im wrong) so it's relatively safe to carry cocked.
Rob Burke of Robs guns in denver just retired at the begining of the summer. He was a sniper working under the office of the president in Vietnam (yes, independent of military branch). He swears by them and has been competing with them for years. His primary carry is a combat commander.
A few trinkets of 1911 wisdom he shared with me and my friends (some basic some a little less) :
Always double tap mag to make sure its seated well.
Never pull hammer with your thumb. Use slide to rack it. Over time it will wear and you'll get wobble in your hammer.
Always dry fire, never ease hammer back with thumb. Over time it will wear the sear pin and eventually you will load a mag, hit the slide release and find your mag emptying itself! He was particularly adamant about this. If you want to carry loaded with the hammer down, take care not to let parts rub slightly when lowering the hammer. Also, and this is me questioning, what are the chances of a hammer that is sitting on the firing pin discharging if it is knocked or hit with something?
Some day I hope to be able to afford a 1911 of my own. For the simplicity and number on the market they are still quite expensive, but the quality is awesome. Nothing fits my hand better. Still, 9mm is cheaper ammo, and that's a factor in my budget too. 10 years from now when I can afford it I'll post a picture of whatever I get.
Sounds like you are taking advice from Mrblack.
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Originally posted by moneyguy
the SA one the i have that was built in 1995 has a semi-cocked position as does the one my grandfather has that he carried in WWII. both are made by Colt. the only difference i see between them as far as operation is, the newer one has a button under the slide that locks the firing pin from hitting the primer unless the trigger is pulled. my grandfathers doesn't have that.
I freely admit my inexperience with shooting semi-auto handguns. I've only tried a few models, and of those I have not had nearly so much shooting time as I've had with the various revolvers I've used. So its very likely you know more than I do. However, I've never seen a "semi-cocked" position on a Colt 1911. Now, mine is a Norinco, and its a copy of the original (except for the sights). I've fired 2 WWI era Colt 1911's and they were the same as mine. I've fired a modern Colt 1911 and it was the same. Is there a difference besides barrel length in the different Colt models? Perhaps we are talking about different models here? All I know is, every 1911 I've fired (single action) was either "cocked and locked" or uncocked. No in betweens. What am I missing?
BTW, just another example of why my Rossi/Taurus .357 is my personal defense weapon of choice. Brass-chuckers are just too confusing.
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Can't recall a 1911 I've ever worked that didn't have the ?halfcock? position.
Don't recall ever touching a Norinco (made by People Republic of China : Army?)
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lazs
Thats good to know. Thanks for the info.
The trinkets I shared are not my own wisdom but that of an extreme expert who has been shooting them and carrying them for decades. I'm certainly not in a position to critique either of you, but that's what he told me.
When he said only to dryfire it he didn't imply that it would wear quickly, but I could see how it could happen to any weapon over time through improper use (ie not engaging the trigger all the way as you reccomend).
Could be his advice is intended for amatures and not those familiar with proper operation. As a gun dealer I'm sure he dealt with many idiots who really don't know what they're doing.
Either way, 1911s are awesome and solid, and I appreciate all the wisdom that everyone has shared here.
I definatly learned something.
P.S. I did fire a Norinco made 1911 once and was pretty impressed. Didn't seem low quality in the least. Again I'm not an expert, but it seems like a low cost solution for those of us who can't afford a springfield or kimber. Can anyone else weigh in on this?
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You have to watch some of the cheap import stuff 68Hawk. The metal is not good. They skimp on both the metal and the heat treat. While it would seem you could get a Bar-Sto barrel or something like that, and be okay, it is really the frame and slide that are soft. To help it get by you can put in the stiffest recoil spring that will allow it to function, and put a shoxk buff in it. That will not slow down the wear on the rails where the frame and slide rub each other. You can help it there by using some premium lube, possibly Teflon or moly based. None of that will make it last and function like a higher quality weapon, but it will help it last longer and function better. If you plan to shoot a couple boxes a year, you can probably get by. But if you plan to shoot it, and shoot it often enough to shoot it well, at least buy a Taurus or better yet a Springfield Armory version.
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I've owned several handguns. And of the handguns I've owned the model 1911 Colt Combat Commander is my favorite. For some reason it just seems to fit.
Have owned a Python, Mauser P38 (not Walther) and a model 26 S&W.
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Originally posted by 68Hawk
Either way, 1911s are awesome and solid, and I appreciate all the wisdom that everyone has shared here.
I definatly learned something.
P.S. I did fire a Norinco made 1911 once and was pretty impressed. Didn't seem low quality in the least. Again I'm not an expert, but it seems like a low cost solution for those of us who can't afford a springfield or kimber. Can anyone else weigh in on this?
Norinco made a very fine weapon. Except for the sights it is a duplicate of the Colt. Problem is they are made in China, and are banned in the US. If it was already here it's ok, but any new ones are strictly not allowed. They used good quality metal and they hold up as well as the Colts do. The best part is most of the Colt parts interchange, which makes it much easier to buy aftermarket parts. If you'd like info on all the different 1911 manufacturers try http://www.m1911.org and go to the forums page. They break it down by manufacturer.
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Please tell me how one engages a "half-cocked" setting? The slide ***** the hammer (or I suppose you could do it manually if you wanted). Unless you have a decocking lever or some such attatchment? There is a safety lever on the side of the gun, but it has nothing to do with the hammer as far as I know. The operations manual says nothing about any half **** setting as a safety. I'm not trying to be a smart-prettythang, if I'm ignorant of something I'd like to know. I've just never seen what you are talking about, or if I have I didnt recognize it as such.
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Star,
You just thumb the hammer back, it will move maybe 2MM and click, then it won't move foreward. You can move it back and let the hammer slip and it will(I would never trust this) drop on the half **** position. It is probably and attemp to stop an accidental discharge if the hammer slips when cocked with a round chambered.
Here is one of my 1911's a Springfield V10. Took it to the range last thurs, got shot by two totaly novices, both never having fired a .45 before and they loved it, and it worked every time.
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f47/gtora2/V10.jpg)
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Im all 1911. weve got an argentine 1912 wich is just a 1911 made in argentina, it is an outstand piece of machinery.
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GtoRA2, how do you like those barrel ports? I read a couple items saying the flash of recoil reducers is distracting as well as blinding at night.
Do you prefer pistols with or without those ports?
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This is the only one I have shot with the ports. To be honest, I don't notice them when shooting; I do think they help marginally with muzzle flip.
Now standing behind someone and watching is a riot though, a large amount of flame shoots out of the ports with every shot. :D
I have never shot it at night, but I suspect it would dazzle you and ruin you night vision.
I bought it because I wanted to try a ported gun, and it seemed pretty slick, Springfield makes the same size 1911 now but I think they dropped the V10 model of it. I had to send it back to Springfield right after I got it, needed a new slide release, barrel link, and extractor. Yes it was brand new. Springfield to their credit was a joy to work with, paid for everything and it works pretty well now.
I would buy another ported gun if I found one that interested me, but my next purchase is going to either be a fullsize kimber, or Ruger 44 mage, or get a slide and frame kit and build my own 1911.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Star,
You just thumb the hammer back, it will move maybe 2MM and click, then it won't move foreward. You can move it back and let the hammer slip and it will(I would never trust this) drop on the half **** position. It is probably and attemp to stop an accidental discharge if the hammer slips when cocked with a round chambered.
Huh. Learn something new every day. I've probably put 200-300 rounds through this gun and never knew you could do that.
I'm still confused as to how one would get it into that state to start with, or WHY you would do such a thing, but it does indeed work on my gun that I swore didnt have such a thing.
Can someone enlighten me as to how one properly engages this feature? I mean, obviously if you are leaving it in this position, it has a round in the chamber, or there wouldnt be a reason for it. However, the very act of loading a round into the chamber fully ***** the gun. So other than manually decocking it and then putting it on halfcock, which I would think is very dangerous, how do you accomplish this?
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I have a Springfield 1911A1 that I got for $530 back in spring of 1996. I spent quite a bit more customizing it for combat carry knowing I would be returning to Florida and getting a concealed carry license. All up, about $2000 with all the custom work plus original price and tax. If I had seen the Kimbers (which were new at the time), I would have waited and gotten one since their initial offering had all the features I had added at almost the same price as the base Springfield.
I have gone shooting with many people with many types of automatic pistols: Sig, Glock, Beretta, etc. Others carry more ammo, have lower recoil permitting faster rates of fire, etc. But none have been more reliable or accurate than my 1911.
Click here to see my weapons (http://web.tampabay.rr.com/sflores1/MyWeapons.html)
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just from personal experiance, my glock has been way more reliable than my 1911. i still like the 1911 better though.
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The 1911 is a fine gun, in good condition. At the time it was developed I feel it was the best gun out there for the purpose it was developed for. Current designs and improvements have, IMO, changed that situation. While it can be a fine weapon for competition I feel the design has been eclipsed by better designs for combat roles. I still think the .45 cartridge is a good one for combat and for Police uses.
I have had and still do own more than one 1911 or a varient like the Officers Model. The two 1911's I still have are great to shoot at the range but I stopped carrying the design quite some time ago. For serious uses I feel a double action style semi auto is a better choice along with a better magazine capacity.
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I have always liked the 1911..I hated it when the Navy switched to the P.O.S. Beretta M9 in 1996. Never seen a gun so prone to stove-piping. Damn the higher Mag capacity..When 1 round is all you need then Mag capacity is a non-issue.
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If life guaranteed you that all of your problems would only come in ones, you might have a point.
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mav... you may be seeing things from a somewhat narrow police viewpoint...
In the thousands of shootings that marshall analized the mag capacity of the 1911 would have not been any disadvantage at all. Police shootings are unique and not applicable to a normal civilian shooting.
lazs
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Laz,
I was replying to ASTAC's post, nothing else. You are right however, I am looking at it from a Police perspective. Forgive me if I evaluate a combat weapon on the basis of combat usage, particularly when that sidearm is the primary weapon rather than a secondary one.