Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: rammjagr on November 08, 2001, 01:41:00 AM
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If you have not seen this yet, it is worth your time...
http://attacked911.tripod.com (http://attacked911.tripod.com)
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To couple powerful images and music to a theme of revenge does a great disservice. I’m sure just a powerful of a presentation could be made from the Afghani perspective showing mothers weeping over the shredded and burnt corpses of their sons and daughters after a B-52 attack.
At times like these more compassion and understanding are called for, not throwing more emotional logs into the fire of revenge.
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blur
you volunteering to go over there and "explain" our side to those ignorant animals?
It war and we didn't start it but we are going to finish it. If young future terrorists and their mothers get it in the process, tough toejam. Better them than us chump.
now everyone hold hands as blur leads us into another verse of "Why can't we be Friends". Pay no attention to the TNT vest the Arab on ur right is wearing....he just doesn't "understand" you.
BTW, the link was already posted before but it's message warrants repeating: http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=003686 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=4&t=003686)
[ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: Eagler ]
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Hi Blur, would you explain why you think the above content does a disservous?
I personally don't see it as a disservice to anyone, expect maybe the terrorists and their supporters.
Your viewpoint on this seems a little odd, unless I'm misunderstanding you.
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i dont know about 'disservice' but people are too easily swayed by media images. it's gonna be a long and brutal war - we have to keep grounded in reality.
if you live by your emotions, you die by them too. weepy patriotic today images and weepy dissenter images tomorrow.
knowing what it's all about will keep you making decisions with your mind and not commercials.
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Originally posted by Eagler:
you volunteering to go over there and "explain" our side to those ignorant animals?
If you are referring to afghani pesants as "ignorant animals", fine - just remember that they did not have anything to do with the 911 attack. They did not participate in it, they do not have money to donate to Al-Kaeda and they do not have any say in their government's decision to house Al-Kaeda bases.
It is unfortunate that we have to eradicate hundreds of peasants to get to a single terrorist fighter or leader and it does not do much about the real terrorist threat to US. Those who attacked WTC were not fighters. They did not need to practice in the afghanistan camps with AKs and RPG to perform their mission.
On the other hand the real terrorist leaders can hardly be described as "ignorant". They mostly have best western education available, are thoroughly familiar with the western way of life and proved their abilities in many situations. That was the reason we formerly chose to cooperate with them in the first place, rather then some moderate democrats.
I am not against the bombings but I prefer straight facts. Pretending that enemy leaders are less capable then we are have and will cause us lot of trouble.
Pretending that slaughtering peasants is a meaningfull military activity rather then an unfortunate side-effect will allow our military to claim success where none is acieved.
Both those errors contributed to the reason why we did not expect the 911 attack after previous attacks and explicit declarations of war by OBL and other groups. After all, they were thought too stupid to pull it off and besides, we blew up some peasants with our cruise missles too...
miko
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I'm saying it is a war and in war innocents die. Sorry they live in a country ran by zealots just as I'm sorry about those that lived their day to day in Berlin and had nothing to do with the German war machine.
tough toejam.
It's us or them, I choose them..
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We are not after the civilians. If we were, it would be a bloodbath by now. It won't be one. I for one would try and stop it if that ever became the case (which it never will).
However.
The Taliban DO support Al Queda openly. They know what they are. They know where they are. They know what they are doing. The are fine with this.
They're guilty.
And that makes them bomb magnets.
Hans.
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BLUR diddly YOU! I HOPE YOU GO HELL YOU whoopee TERRORIST SYMPATHYZER I HOPE YOU DIE AS YOU READ THIS POST OR GOD WILLING YOU NEVER READ IT AND ARE DEAD AS I WRITE THIS!
diddly YOU!
diddly YOU!
ZERO TOLERANCE FOR LIKES OF YOU! DIE!
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What a wise post :D
ROTFL ...
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Bombing civilians is in my view a neccessary bad,that has to be done in certain scenarios.
They attacked civilians in the US,when they did that they lost all their rights for any other kind of treatment.
Off course it wasn`t some 5 years old afghan boy who did it and now may be lying dead,but he`s parents and the rest of the adult population who allowed a regime like
the taliban to power,and know what kinda people they harbour.
Germany got bombed the toejam out of during the 2nd world war.They called it terror bombing,but it was Germany too who started the bombing of civilians in Spain,than in Warsaw,Coventry,London etc.
So imo if You live in a country that`s government does or backs people that do such deeds ,either do something about it,or expect to die.
Afghanistan isn`t like an eastern europian country where the communist regime was in power because the whole Red army would crush any revolt against it.
If the people of Afghanistan really wanted to,they could throw this evil group of people over.But it seems like they like them,and this simple fact makes them evil too.
What bugs me the most is,how can they allow countries like Syria and Iran in the coalition.What a diddlyin joke.
They should be bombed with the rest of these amazinhunks.
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Originally posted by blur:
To couple powerful images and music to a theme of revenge does a great disservice. I’m sure just a powerful of a presentation could be made from the Afghani perspective showing mothers weeping over the shredded and burnt corpses of their sons and daughters after a B-52 attack.
At times like these more compassion and understanding are called for, not throwing more emotional logs into the fire of revenge.
Get a grip blur. Mothers crying over thier sons and daughter's? The Afghanis do have T.V. camera's you know....where's the proof? And don't even try to show me a picture of a crispy critter because you can't prove whether it' a civilian or not. The only word on casualties coming out of that country is coming straight from the Taliban.
What your doing is buying Taliban/Al-Queda propaganda hook line and sinker. The forces conducting the bombing in Afghanistan aren't flying in there and slinging weapons just anywhere...they are precise and MANY man hours of planning go into each and every piece of explosive Iron that impacts. Unfortunately, this is warfare, mistakes happen and people get killed that shouldn't.
This isn't revenge, this engagement is no more than ridding the world of a group of PEOPLE who would have no problem walking up and sinking a rusty dagger into your belly just because you don't THINK the way they think you should.
Nobody wants to see civilians die, my only answer is to tell them to grab a clue. Run the Taliban out and if that won't work GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY. <NEWSFLASH> There's a WAR on and BOMBS are falling on and around MILITARY / TERRORIST targets.
If you feel the need to hug a terrorist..then I agree whole heartedly with Grun. But as far as the Afghani's go, show me who they support. SHOW me they are "innocent". SHOW ME! We don't know the consensus of that population for sure, but we ARE at least sending humanitarian aid to civilians.
Tumor
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
BLUR diddly YOU! I HOPE YOU GO HELL YOU whoopee TERRORIST SYMPATHYZER I HOPE YOU DIE AS YOU READ THIS POST OR GOD WILLING YOU NEVER READ IT AND ARE DEAD AS I WRITE THIS!
diddly YOU!
diddly YOU!
ZERO TOLERANCE FOR LIKES OF YOU! DIE!
LOL, you came very close to making me spit coffee through my nose. :)
I’m starting to wonder if maybe we’re bombing the wrong people. ;)
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I bet you are...
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Originally posted by blur:
To couple powerful images and music to a theme of revenge does a great disservice. I’m sure just a powerful of a presentation could be made from the Afghani perspective showing mothers weeping over the shredded and burnt corpses of their sons and daughters after a B-52 attack.
At times like these more compassion and understanding are called for, not throwing more emotional logs into the fire of revenge.
i see nothing in here that would ever make me even think of labelling blur a "terrorist sympathiser" (with or without the adjacent adjectives.)
blur was merely exercizing his right to lend his opinion, label him and refuse him this right and you lose the freedom that you are "fighting" so hard for.
i pray that there is still some room for dissent.
:(
p.s. i prolly should make this post about 10 times longer, making sure i clarify my viewpoint and pre-defend my every word. But i just dont have the time right now.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
I bet you are...
A comie ?
YEAHHHHHHHHHHHH
pfffffffffffffff
:D
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;)
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If this nation wished the majority of the population of Afganistan would simply cease to exist.
THIS nation doesnt do such things, we avoid civilian casualties as much as possiable due to the fact that WE DO have COMPASSION.
Grun... relax, these indiv's enjoy jerking you around. Thier view matters little really. There is a REASON why so many different forms of governments across the world are backing the US's response...
xBAT
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sheesh people. civilian lives are civilian lives regardless of nationality. HOWEVER, the US is not just carpet bombing the hell out of the Afghani people. It's being approached the same way as it was in Iraq 10 years ago. Sure, some mistakes were made and some civilians died, but not as many as Iraq (and the Taliban now) want you to believe. But the US bombed a milk factory in Iraq! We all saw the sign on the factory! Uhmm, since when does a Arabic speaking nation have signs in plain English on their buildings? A lot of what you're hearing (from both sides) is propaganda. It's difficult to know what to believe, except this. We're not targeting civilians. Some will die, but not as a target of war. Think about it. Every plain Afghan we kill (intentionally or inadverdantly) gives the Taliban leverage on their people. "See, the US cares not for you, they slaughter you just as they slaughtered 1000's of your Muslim brethren in Iraq! We care for you. We brought stability and religious order." As for the people revolting against the Taliban, I don't think so. The majority of the Afghans are scared to death of the Taliban, and the ones that aren't scared are beaten to death. We're gonna do our best to help those people by removing the Taliban. Unfortunately, we're going to kill some of those people in the process. Like Eagler said, the same thing happened in Germany in WWII. The Third Reich had to be removed from power, and there were going to be civilian casualties. The Allies did the job. It's gotta happen again now. The Taliban is oppressive and openly supports terrorist activities. They must be removed from power by any means necessary.
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Grunherz - are you for real? Or are you a 'right wing nutter with tourette's syndrome' UBB bot? Your posts, while making little sense or adding to the debate, are good for a laugh.
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Im very angry at this anti-american attitide (in many forms) thats cropping up in some people thats all. Very angry. These days, and especially at a college campus there is no free speech except for leftists with america hating messages so im very frustrated with people who hold such ideas. Everything else is declared intollerant. You cant do anything to them or even reason with them or educate them. I prolly take it out on some people here, sometimes rightly and sometimes not.
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Originally posted by Nifty:
We're gonna do our best to help those people by removing the Taliban.The Taliban is oppressive and openly supports terrorist activities. They must be removed from power by any means necessary.
SO how did the emphasis on the bombings go from essentially a police action to capture Osama Bin-Laden and Al Qaeda, to the removal of the Taliban government..supposedly "liberating" the oppressed peoples of Afghanistan?
And before the bombings, since when did the Taliban openly support terrorism? The taliban is only being punished because they had the audacity to refuse to simply hand over Bin-Laden without proof.
Both the British, and Germans showed in WW2 that such bombing only strengthens the resolve to continue fighting.
China has a self impossed regime, that oppresses its peoples...does that mean the US military are drawing up plans to attack Beijing?
Don't let fact spoil a good story
Tronsky
[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: -tronski- ]
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Originally posted by -tronski-:
SO how did the emphasis on the bombings go from essentially a police action to capture Osama Bin-Laden and Al Qaeda, to the removal of the Taliban government..essentially "liberating" the oppressed peoples of Afghanistan?
And before the bombings, since when did the Taliban openly support terrorism? The taliban is only being punished because they had the audacity to refuse to simply hand over Bin-Laden without proof.
Both the British, and Germans showed in WW2 that such bombing only strengths the resolve to continue fighting.
China has a self impossed regime, that oppresses its peoples...does that mean the US military are drawing up plans to attack Beijing?
Don't let fact spoil a good story
Tronsky
[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: -tronski- ]
We aren't liberating crap. If the taliban is overthrown during the process, so be it. Our goal is to stamp out terrorism and the governments/orgs that support it.
taliban made their bed, now they have to lie in it.
If you aren't with us, you are against us.
that sums it up...
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Trotski since you are so cozy with the Taliban tell us all what level of "proof" they require to turn over Bin Laden?
[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: GRUNHERZ ]
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Ironic isn't it, in order to take a base in AH, WE MUST DESTROY (COMPLETELY) the TOWN, where the map room, barracks, and some fuel is placed. Now if they weren't using the civilians as a shield WHY would these military items be placed in a TOWN.
SO, Hitech, I guess you will have to stop us from bombing the towns...
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I'm tired of hearing about what great military leaders these thugs are. I could sneak up behind the heavy weight champion of the world, and smack him behind the ear. Does that mean I know as much about boxing as he does? Hardly. There are legitimate nations all over the world that send their people to OUR war collages to learn how to do it. This says about all that is needed about America's knowledge of warfare. All we have here is a small group of gangsters trying to stir up some toejam. And they are just going to die for there trouble. Thanks to the American armed forces, when they are rotting corps's. I will still be dancing with my grand babies.
Civilian casualtys are a function of warfare. Wars are always punitive actions. While no US military officer would intentionally target civilians in this type of war. They are aware that these casualtys will occur. And will provide ample message to other countrys, that might consider harboring these dorks.
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Trotski, US has intel that Taliban is funded and controlled by Bin Laden. You expect the US to hand over our intel (which is going to compromise sources and methods) to the people who we are at war with?
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hehe i understand why grunherz is pissed - it's kind of a fad around this part of the world to protest the war effort and then go home to your comfy mommy's house and trade mp3s with your little teenie friends.
it would be tolerable if they really felt that way i guess, but you know when you see them that the circumstances dont matter, they are just protesting as a fashion accessory and it pisses me off that so many people havent thought deeply about this conflict.
thats why i still warn against too much imagery - you have to support it or disagree with it based on harder goods than just emotions or responses to pictures.
some of the same people responding to overdramatized eagles soaring over new york with lee greenwood playing in the background or whatever are gonna be the same people changing their minds and becoming dissenters when someone cooks up a bunch of pictures of civilian casualties.
you cant be that gullible!
if you support it - do it because it makes sense not because you ot all choked up.....it's gonna be a mess, we will all have to be strong. civi's are gonna die, thats part of war and i think some people are naive about that. they are cheering now but this wont always be fun - i hope people are ready to handle the worst of it too. we'll see-
hey grun, just some advice for your own sanity, dont take any trips to berkeley this weekend ok :)
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Originally posted by batdog:
If this nation wished the majority of the population of Afganistan would simply cease to exist.
THIS nation doesnt do such things, we avoid civilian casualties as much as possiable due to the fact that WE DO have COMPASSION.
Grun... relax, these indiv's enjoy jerking you around. Thier view matters little really. There is a REASON why so many different forms of governments across the world are backing the US's response...
xBAT
I don't understand you ...
One day you post msg like and a** hole (sorry for the term but it describe my though) and the other day you make a post that make sense ...
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Who woulda thought that chunk tuna would look and smell like THAT after just a few hours in a cats ass?
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Hehehe Berkeley. I was living there a few years ago when some tards were rioting over something vague. Rootin' for the cops was never so much fun. :)
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Not that this entire argument isn't rediculous on its own merits, but a lot of people forget the Taliban was given proof in an attempt to extract OBL after the original WTC bombing and trial.
As for the home front imagry, I'm with Fish. I'd prefer we didn't even call them Evil Ones, just The people that we are going to kill because they are trying to kill us. No reason to get fancy about it.
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Originally posted by Fatty:
I'd prefer we didn't even call them Evil Ones, just The people that we are going to kill because they are trying to kill us. No reason to get fancy about it.
I perfer we call them evil as often as possible. They are are evil. Only man does such things to other men; not ants, not sheep, not fish. God will get them all in the end. This is the GREATEST CONSOLATION for me, knowing that the people directly responsible for the murders of Sept 11th have already been delievered up to Almighty God for judgement and punishement. No Dancing Girls and Palm trees for them. They have found out that they died for Satan, not God. How horrified they must have been after they died. Now they reside in hell, forever, where the flesh burns but is never consumed. I hope they enjoy their reward...
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Grun..
Something to relax you.. let it load and turn volume up... Have a beer adn a smoke..
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/uploads/35000/35339_osama_nowhere_to_run.swf (http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/uploads/35000/35339_osama_nowhere_to_run.swf)
Dog out.....
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Originally posted by funkedup:
Trotski, US has intel that Taliban is funded and controlled by Bin Laden. You expect the US to hand over our intel (which is going to compromise sources and methods) to the people who we are at war with?
You were at war with Al-Qaeda, not with the Taliban.
IT was irrelevant whether the Taliban was a good govt or not. But no country simply hands over people on demand.
Tronsky
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Trotski since you are so cozy with the Taliban tell us all what level of "proof" they require to turn over Bin Laden?
[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: GRUNHERZ ]
Who said I was cozy with the Taliban but because I refuse to be bullied into swallowing all of the propaganda, and will not totally support something I don't truly believe in that makes me a supporter of the Taliban eh?
Tronsky
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But no country simply hands over people on demand."
We extradite criminals routinely. As do many nations.
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We extradite criminals routinely. As do many nations.[/QB]
Except Isreal..hehe
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MUAUAHAHAAHAHAAAAA Wingnut. :)
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:)
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We extradite criminals routinely. As do many nations.
Not too long before Sept. 11th the US was still giving visas to members of the Real IRA (killed 38 in Omagh a couple of years back)...
Extradition of IRA terrorists has always been a problem with the US (and many European countries), some would argue for legitimate reasons. Although, I'm assuming that's changed quite considerably in the light of recent events.
[ 11-10-2001: Message edited by: Dowding ]