Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: xrtoronto on September 18, 2006, 01:29:39 PM
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DETROIT - Executives of General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. have discussed a possible merger or alliance, the trade journal Automotive News reported Monday. Both companies declined comment.
Automotive News quoted what it said were several people familiar with the talks as saying that discussions involving senior executives began in July and are not taking place now.
The journal quoted one source as saying that GM Chief Financial Officer Fritz Henderson and his Ford counterpart, Don Leclair, discussed a GM-Ford alliance in August.
The report comes as GM and Ford have been slashing their work forces and closing plants in efforts to reverse multibillion dollar losses. Their sales have been hurt by competition from more fuel-efficient models from Asian automakers.
Two auto analysts said an outright GM-Ford merger is unlikely, and even lower-level cooperation that now takes place on such issues as hybrid vehicles, production technology and components requires careful attention to antitrust laws.
In July, GM, Renault SA of France and Nissan Motor Co. of Japan announced a 90-day review of an alliance among them.
"As we've often said, GM officials routinely discuss issues of mutual interest with other automakers," GM spokesman Brian Akre said before business hours Monday. "As a policy, we do not confirm or comment publicly on those private discussions, which in many cases do not lead anywhere."
Ford's Oscar Suris, also speaking before business hours, said: "We're not commenting on speculation."
"It would surprise me if there were a coming-together on the grand level," said David Cole, head of the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor.
"I don't see it from a business standpoint," said analyst Charles Fleetham of Project Innovations in Farmington Hills. "They have the same high health costs, high union costs, ineffective white collar work force that they want to get rid of."
Somewhere down the line, though, the number of companies that make cars is going to shrink, Cole said.
"There's going to be more consolidation. I think it's going to accelerate," Cole said.
Ford and GM very well could start more joint efforts similar to their current work to develop a six-speed automatic transmission, Cole said, adding, that contacts between automakers "go on all the time at the senior level."
Talk of alliances involving GM came after GM shareholder Kirk Kerkorian, who owns a 9.9 percent stake in the company, called for GM, Renault and Nissan to pursue an alliance.
Carlos Ghosn, the chief executive of Renault and Nissan, has said the benefits from an alliance would be similar to the gains from the Renault-Nissan alliance, which have included cost savings from joint purchases of auto parts.
Ford earlier declined to comment on an August Wall Street Journal report that then-Chief Executive Bill Ford approached Ghosn about a Ford alliance with Renault and Nissan.
GM shares fell 26 cents to $31.40 in afternoon trading on the
New York Stock Exchange, while Ford shares fell 25 cents to $7.77.
source (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060918/ap_on_bi_ge/gm_ford)
Now that's big news...didn't see this happening
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The prospect of a Ford-GM merger bears entirely too much similarity to the New York Central--PRR Merger. The latter didn't end well.
J_A_B
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According to Wikipedia, there have been 1,024 car companies in the U.S. that are now defunct. List (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobile_manufacturers#Defunct_US_automakers)
How long until there is only one left? Kind of reminds me of that movie Demolition Man, where the only restaurant left in the future is Taco Bell.
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Well, there goes quality if that happens.
I wonder what the UAW is giving up, if anything, to help each respective company survive?
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Originally posted by LePaul
I wonder what the UAW is giving up, if anything, to help each respective company survive?
A bunch of jobs of their members. But it's okay, they'll preserve their rediculous pay scale and benefits for the one guy left.
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Originally posted by LePaul
Well, there goes quality if that happens.
I wonder what the UAW is giving up, if anything, to help each respective company survive?
Maybe one of their 3 hour coffee breaks.
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Originally posted by LePaul
Well, there goes quality if that happens.
I wonder what the UAW is giving up, if anything, to help each respective company survive?
While the UAW is about 40% of the problem, having worked contract for Ford over these last 5 years has shown me this:
1.) Every month the Executives meet in Traverse City to hold a meeting. The cost savings is drastic. Figure around $100,000-$150,000 per meeting. Yeah, the new CEC complex isn't quite up to par with this. They only spent $8 million changed the name and function of this building. It would make too much sense.
2.) On the 11th and 12th floors of Ford WHQ in Dearborn is a Country Club atmosphere amidst the whoring of the company. For starters, are the Bedrooms given to each Member of the Board (Pres, VP's, etc). "yeah, let's sleep while we spend money we don't have." Or the individual restrooms on each floor, wouldn't want to save even more money while having a communal restroom like every other building in the group. Hell, if yer bored enough go onto the roof and use the golf green. Screw around long enough on these two floors, the problem at hand will just "go away".
3.) One common trend is the insane amount of moves that a single person will make in a year. I know that there is still a childish practice of a "Senior" wanting the cubicle or office from a rookie. They moved the same person 5 times last year. I know, I put the move in. Each time a person moves, it costs around $750.
4.) Ford and GM are DONE regardless of how long "they gut it out". Their piss poor Managerial skills have finally run past them. Michigan is dead as a "Automotive Giant". Ford's Credit status is B-, on the THRESHOLD of Junk Status. Rumor is, (GM is hiding this one good so far) that GM's status is a notch below Ford. It is a strong rumor, otherwise.
5.) Blame the UAW all that you want, but honestly, Ford's issue is NOT the UAW. They are killing themselves from the Top on down. The Top Level exec's are still REFUSING to institute common sense in terms of discretionary spending. Their motto is "Spend now and/or skim while you can".
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When GM and Ford join hands, that will be the same day that Catholics and Muslims join hands in peace.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
When GM and Ford join hands, that will be the same day that Catholics and Muslims join hands in peace.
I see you read my post. :D
They EACH want to be the last, even if only for a day. That "day" is coming up VERY SOON.
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Ford and GM merging, although it might be a shocker to some people, would be no different than any other mergers/buyouts since the beginning of the American car industry. Oldsmobile and Buick used to be seperate companys until bought out and rolled into General Motors. Rambler got bought up by Nash, which merged with Hudson and created American Motors, which eventually found itself bought up by Chrysler.
Packard bought out Studebaker
I think one of the things that is killing these companies is trying to make to many different model types. Duplicating effort. I think GM wastes alot of money making SUVs for Chevy, GMC, and Cadillac. There are all esentially the same vehicle with comsmetic changes (grill, headlights) and interior trim levels. They'd probably save a bundle if Chevy did regular cars, GMC did trucks and SUVs and Cadillac did the luxury cars (go ahead and kill Buick and Pontiac names and roll those models under Chevy)
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"(go ahead and kill Buick and Pontiac names and roll those models under Chevy)"
Don't give them any ideas; GM would likely do something that stupid. Buick does extremely well in parts of China. It's a pretty signifigant success for GM.
Also, I believe Buick was the original company that aquired other companies which *formed* GM.
J_A_B
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Is this a real merger, or actually a structured buyout of one or the other?Ford has bought out Volvo, Jag, Range Rover,etc. I would bet If there was a merger, Ford would be the dominant(aka Daimler in the Daimler-Chrysler deal.)
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Originally posted by J_A_B
Don't give them any ideas; GM would likely do something that stupid. Buick does extremely well in parts of China. It's a pretty signifigant success for GM.
Also, I believe Buick was the original company that aquired other companies which *formed* GM.J_A_B
The cars themselves dont need to go away just the names or divisions. Buick, Pontiac, and Chevy are just names (although they do have a lot of brand recongnition) all the money they spend on marketing and branding is really a waste, underneath they are all the same.
Under GM Chevy and GMC market and sell trucks and SUVs. They spend money competing against each other. They could cut some corporate fat ,model duplication and save a huge bundle of money just in marketing, design and executive pay.
I cant remember on Buick being the original. Think Durant help found Buick then left and started General Motors then came back and got Buick and Oldsmobile
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Well I dont mean for this to fall into a "management is just as wasteful as the union" kinda tirade.
I guess my basis for comparison is what's going on the in the airlines these days. These folks know their company is on the brink and are conceeding a fair amount of pay, benies and even pensions in one case. I've yet to see the UAW publically state how they'll help (asides pointing out how wasteful some areas of management are...).
If things continue as they are, there will not be a GM and Ford. Toyota is within striking range or surpassing GM. Honda and Toyota are reaping record profits and looking to build more plants. The domestics are floundering.
I'm just curious what their plan is. The last time I saw a news clip on the UAW, they were blaming George Bush for all their woes. Its a sad day when these guys strike out at political figures rather than face the facts...they are building vehicles people dont want and clearly...clearly...arent buying. Maybe someday they'll face that reality.
But when I see on the evening news that each new car costs $1200 extra because of the health demands of the union...and research all the perks these guys have...I move along to another brand.
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Jeez,
Craptacular car company A merges with craptacular car company B.
That's sure to fix things!
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Originally posted by LePaul
Well I dont mean for this to fall into a "management is just as wasteful as the union" kinda tirade.
I guess my basis for comparison is what's going on the in the airlines these days. These folks know their company is on the brink and are conceeding a fair amount of pay, benies and even pensions in one case. I've yet to see the UAW publically state how they'll help (asides pointing out how wasteful some areas of management are...).
If things continue as they are, there will not be a GM and Ford. Toyota is within striking range or surpassing GM. Honda and Toyota are reaping record profits and looking to build more plants. The domestics are floundering.
I'm just curious what their plan is. The last time I saw a news clip on the UAW, they were blaming George Bush for all their woes. Its a sad day when these guys strike out at political figures rather than face the facts...they are building vehicles people dont want and clearly...clearly...arent buying. Maybe someday they'll face that reality.
But when I see on the evening news that each new car costs $1200 extra because of the health demands of the union...and research all the perks these guys have...I move along to another brand.
The problem is UAW, Ford and GM will blame anyone else under the sun, other than themselves. They'll never restore the relationship they enjoyed for 40 years.
I give them 5 years anyways. Investors laughed when Ford sold Hertz, in an effort to "cut costs". They gained NO GROUND from this move. Now, Ford wants tor break apart the PAG (Premier Automotive Group) located in Irvine, Ca. Aston Martin, Land Rover, and Volvo are now on the chopping block.
At some point piss poor Managerial skills need to come into play. If Ford sells Volvo, I give them a shorter life expectancy. That is the problem with Corporate America today, noone will take accountability for the piss poor Executive bodies in most Corporations.
The US Automotive Industry is gone forever, and will never see the greener fields of the past.
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Originally posted by Scherf
Jeez,
Craptacular car company A merges with craptacular car company B.
That's sure to fix things!
Well the recalls will certainly be spectacular
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Imagine the 'merger' (read 'takeover') between GM and Renault-Nissan goes ahead.
You'll have GM as a division of a company run by and arab with headquarters in Paris and Tokyo.
An American Revolution indeed :huh
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Originally posted by ChickenHawk
According to Wikipedia, there have been 1,024 car companies in the U.S. that are now defunct. List (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_automobile_manufacturers#Defunct_US_automakers)
How long until there is only one left? Kind of reminds me of that movie Demolition Man, where the only restaurant left in the future is Taco Bell.
very few of those defunct companies lived past 1920. I don't think Ford or Chevy have much to worry about.
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Originally posted by NATEDOG
very few of those defunct companies lived past 1920. I don't think Ford or Chevy have much to worry about.
You'd be surprised how bad of shape they really are in.
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Originally posted by NATEDOG
very few of those defunct companies lived past 1920. I don't think Ford or Chevy have much to worry about.
thats true, also alot of those early companies were started out of former carraiage and bicycle shops, repair shops and only produced a limited number of automobiles and some didnt even last a couple of years. Those that did survive got killed off during the depression.
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Originally posted by LePaul
Well I dont mean for this to fall into a "management is just as wasteful as the union" kinda tirade.
I guess my basis for comparison is what's going on the in the airlines these days. These folks know their company is on the brink and are conceeding a fair amount of pay, benies and even pensions in one case.
Yes, and at the same time, top executives are getting raises, what's the lesson here?
But when I see on the evening news that each new car costs $1200 extra because of the health demands of the union...and research all the perks these guys have...I move along to another brand.
Yet, it has nothing to do with top executives getting rediculous bonuses for losing millions of dollars so they can have a nice nest egg to retire on when the company goes belly up
Yeah, blame the blue collar worker who has to put his house up to put his kids through college
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Originally posted by NATEDOG
very few of those defunct companies lived past 1920. I don't think Ford or Chevy have much to worry about.
The dates listed is when the car company started, not when it ceased to exist. I thought the same thing until I started clicking on the individual companies to find out how long they survived.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Yeah, blame the blue collar worker who has to put his house up to put his kids through college
When that "blue collar worker" is getting $40+ an hour to air wrench a part to a car, or they sit in a dayroom waiting for a position to open up, I cry shenanigans
They also cry foul that they have to ...gasp...contribute to their own healthcare and retirement plans. I mean, c'mon!
And when their Union insists they deserve more and fault the President for their woes...I say they live in some sort of alternate universe.
But that's ok. This tactic of always pointing that management is worse just gives me more reason to buy elsewhere. While you guys duke it out over whose the greater evil, your company will fall around you while you stand there and point at each other.
Its sad and ironic to watch from the outside.
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Originally posted by LePaul
When that "blue collar worker" is getting $40+ an hour to air wrench a part to a car, or they sit in a dayroom waiting for a position to open up, I cry shenanigans
They also cry foul that they have to ...gasp...contribute to their own healthcare and retirement plans. I mean, c'mon!
And when their Union insists they deserve more and fault the President for their woes...I say they live in some sort of alternate universe.
But that's ok. This tactic of always pointing that management is worse just gives me more reason to buy elsewhere. While you guys duke it out over whose the greater evil, your company will fall around you while you stand there and point at each other.
Its sad and ironic to watch from the outside.
Yet executives put millions in their private retirement accounts while the company loses millions. Why should the guy making $40.00 an hour take a pay cut when the guys making 17 million a year don't?
I make $21.00 an hour, pay almost 100.00 bucks a week for health care, have a 2k a month mortgage, and have to work many OT hours to make ends meet and pray to God that the OT doesn't dry up. Yet when the price of a stamp goes up, "it's the union workers making too much money" while we are top loaded with overpaid management
Sell that anti union crap somewhere else
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Sell your anti-management crap elsewhere :)
I'm pointing out the UAW, not your Union or whatever one you wish to praise.
You deny there's anything wrong with the UAW, you just insist on pointing elsewhere. That sort of deflection just doesnt cut it. Not based on the amount of skeletons in that closet. Management's this or that isnt adding hundreds of dollars to a vehicle...its the absurd pay and benefit packages these guys demand...which is way off the scale based on what us average joes do for work.
Follow?
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Honestly...As long as GM survives to release the new camaro, and get the Holden vehicle architecture out in america they may save themselves. Holden in australia is supposedly a good company. However, as far as im concerned, aside from the halfton and up trucks and the corvette, GM doesnt make many spectacular vehicles. I really dont know how much id care if they went under after i got my new camaro. but i want that car soo bad. Jet black, red interior, 6 spd manual, LS2...:cry
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Originally posted by LePaul
Sell your anti-management crap elsewhere :)
I'm pointing out the UAW, not your Union or whatever one you wish to praise.
You deny there's anything wrong with the UAW, you just insist on pointing elsewhere. That sort of deflection just doesnt cut it. Not based on the amount of skeletons in that closet. Management's this or that isnt adding hundreds of dollars to a vehicle...its the absurd pay and benefit packages these guys demand...which is way off the scale based on what us average joes do for work.
Follow?
So tell me, what are us "average joes" supposed to work for? Less so executives can build multi million dollar retirements? Tell me, what do you think the average joe with an average family and an average house and bills supposed to work for?
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Originally posted by LePaul
Sell your anti-management crap elsewhere :)
I'm pointing out the UAW, not your Union or whatever one you wish to praise.
You deny there's anything wrong with the UAW, you just insist on pointing elsewhere. That sort of deflection just doesnt cut it. Not based on the amount of skeletons in that closet. Management's this or that isnt adding hundreds of dollars to a vehicle...its the absurd pay and benefit packages these guys demand...which is way off the scale based on what us average joes do for work.
Follow?
I'm done. You have no clue for which you are speaking of. You base your "opinions" on conjecture. Wait I forgot, you're gonna be right. Keep blaming the UAW (they are hiring Temp workers now through the UAW with NO Benefits making $18.50/hr). So this now puts the kibosh on your theory.
It's folks like you that allow "Enron" to happen. :aok I'm sure you can find a way to blame the Electrical, Plumbing, HVAC unions for it's demise, eh?
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LePaul, Over half of the cars that both GM and Ford make, are actually built outside of the U.S. Many in Mexico. For about $2.50 a day Absolutely no Benefits. No EPA, No Workmen's comp, No OSHA, No nothing.
Add on top of that, If you believe what anyone in management says in either company, You do so at your own risk. They spend millions in campaign contributions alone.Half the money these company's make, is not even taxable by the U.S. because the business is done outside of our borders.
On final note: Toyota and Lexus plants inside of the U.S. are run by U.A.W. workers. I don't recall either company having problems because of U.A.W. workers.
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Different company, different contract.
Im referring directly to what's been reported about the GM/Ford issues.
But some of you UAW apologists cant stand such a discussion, always...always pointing to how management is worse.
So you think these guys sitting in a dayroom waiting for a job truly think...truly...deserve to make the huge salary and benefits while the company goes down the crapper?
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
DETROIT - Executives of General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. have discussed a possible merger or alliance, the trade journal Automotive News reported Monday. Both companies declined comment.
Automotive News quoted what it said were several people familiar with the talks as saying that discussions involving senior executives began in July and are not taking place now.
The journal quoted one source as saying that GM Chief Financial Officer Fritz Henderson and his Ford counterpart, Don Leclair, discussed a GM-Ford alliance in August.
The report comes as GM and Ford have been slashing their work forces and closing plants in efforts to reverse multibillion dollar losses. Their sales have been hurt by competition from more fuel-efficient models from Asian automakers.
Two auto analysts said an outright GM-Ford merger is unlikely, and even lower-level cooperation that now takes place on such issues as hybrid vehicles, production technology and components requires careful attention to antitrust laws.
In July, GM, Renault SA of France and Nissan Motor Co. of Japan announced a 90-day review of an alliance among them.
"As we've often said, GM officials routinely discuss issues of mutual interest with other automakers," GM spokesman Brian Akre said before business hours Monday. "As a policy, we do not confirm or comment publicly on those private discussions, which in many cases do not lead anywhere."
Ford's Oscar Suris, also speaking before business hours, said: "We're not commenting on speculation."
"It would surprise me if there were a coming-together on the grand level," said David Cole, head of the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor.
"I don't see it from a business standpoint," said analyst Charles Fleetham of Project Innovations in Farmington Hills. "They have the same high health costs, high union costs, ineffective white collar work force that they want to get rid of."
Somewhere down the line, though, the number of companies that make cars is going to shrink, Cole said.
"There's going to be more consolidation. I think it's going to accelerate," Cole said.
Ford and GM very well could start more joint efforts similar to their current work to develop a six-speed automatic transmission, Cole said, adding, that contacts between automakers "go on all the time at the senior level."
Talk of alliances involving GM came after GM shareholder Kirk Kerkorian, who owns a 9.9 percent stake in the company, called for GM, Renault and Nissan to pursue an alliance.
Carlos Ghosn, the chief executive of Renault and Nissan, has said the benefits from an alliance would be similar to the gains from the Renault-Nissan alliance, which have included cost savings from joint purchases of auto parts.
Ford earlier declined to comment on an August Wall Street Journal report that then-Chief Executive Bill Ford approached Ghosn about a Ford alliance with Renault and Nissan.
GM shares fell 26 cents to $31.40 in afternoon trading on the
New York Stock Exchange, while Ford shares fell 25 cents to $7.77.
source (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060918/ap_on_bi_ge/gm_ford)
Now that's big news...didn't see this happening
Very interesting comments Xrtoronto.
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Originally posted by LePaul
But some of you UAW apologists cant stand such a discussion, always...always pointing to how management is worse.
So you think these guys sitting in a dayroom waiting for a job truly think...truly...deserve to make the huge salary and benefits while the company goes down the crapper?
Yes. I've worked for both GM and Ford. That IS the problem. Ford has "supervisors for the supervisors". Hell, they have 2 VP's for each division. Explain why two VP's are needed to perform the IDENTICAL Task. Not mention the President of said VP's.
It's a joke. UAW about 35%, FORD MANAGEMENT 65%.
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OK so there is a possible merger of Ford and GM. What would the name be??
GORDM
FOGM
GMORD
?????
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Originally posted by Maverick
OK so there is a possible merger of Ford and GM. What would the name be??
GORDM
FOGM
GMORD
?????
U.S. District Court Eastern District of Michigan Bankruptcy File No. 06-xxxxxxx
shamus
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Originally posted by Shamus
U.S. District Court Eastern District of Michigan Bankruptcy File No. 06-xxxxxxx
shamus
Exactly. :rofl
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Originally posted by Maverick
OK so there is a possible merger of Ford and GM. What would the name be??
GORDM
FOGM
GMORD
?????
No the Chinese with trillions of dollars in their reserve would salvage and buy these companies...:aok
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Ford and GM still make cars?!?!?!
I thought they were just giant mortgage lenders. Go figure.