Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: miko2d on November 08, 2001, 04:53:00 PM
-
This post is primarily directed to mrfish but anyone is welcome to participate.
<S> mrfish!
I'd like to talk with you about jews in a separate thread that did not start with offences or hot issues. Despite our frequent run-ins I never disrespected you because you always cared to explain how you came to your opinions.
That shows respect for the audience and (usually) willingness to learn. I would like to educate you a little and in return I am willing to give you a try to educate me.
I would still like to persuade you that differences that people somtime/often perceive about jews can be mostly explained by quite ordinary factors that have no moral connotations (i.e. evil-good).
I am sorry to hear that your experience with some particular jews was so discouraging, but you can get similar experience with any other people. Also I am
sure that many people have quite good experiences dealing with jews.
Both questions - of the nature and properties of "intelligence" and of jews' prominence interested people for the last hundred years and were thoroughly researched.
It is a quite recognised knowlege that ashkenasi (european-origin) jews are considerably higher on IQ scale then average white people (~15 points - 1 standard deviation). At the same time asians are slightly higher (~3-5) and some are much lower. Some people would say that ashkenasi jews are much more intelligent, but since the rerm intelligence was not successfully defined (despite many attempts), I would stick to IQ or "cognitive abilities".
The differences are borne by many studies involving well-designed tests that do not have social/cultural loading or often even consious desicions.
That information is not the common knowlege but it is readily available in special publications dedicated to the fields of differential psychology, psychometrics and brain/neural physiology. Also in a few publications that are sold now in the bookstores or through Amazon.
If you disagree with that view I would like to know your sources. If you want to learn about that, I direct you to the "Bell Curve" which in turn lists many other sources.
Let's for the sake of this argument assume that jews really are 1 standard deviation higher on IQ scale - because then a lot can be logically explained. Then we can consider the following issues.
Intellectual advantages (presumed) that jews have would make it natural that jews would be disproportionately represented in areas requiring intelligence - in commerce and in science. And by disproportionately I mean a whole lot.
IQ 115 is a minimum required to enroll into college. IQ 130 is a minimum for serious executive/scientific position. IQ 145 is means that a person has unusual intelligence and 145.6 is more unusual still. How unusual?
Assume US population exepting jews is 280 mil.
CIA data says judaism as 2% of US population (5.6 mil) but it is BS because many if not most of of jews are non-eligious and practically no non-jews
practice Judaism - and we have only about 6 mil jews altogeter. They should really clarify that religion vs. ethnicity stuff. Anyway, let's say we have 4mil ashkenasi jews in US (not to confuse with sephardic jews - those of the non-european origin).
IQ 145.6 would be 3.04 standard deviations from the mean. Using z-table for normal distribution we get value 0.0003.
That means 280mil * 0.0003 = 0.084mil or 84 thousand people have IQ equal or higher then 145.6
For 4 mil ashkenasi jews that would be only 2.04 standard deviations from the mean. z-value is 0.0207.
That means 4mil * 0.0207 = 0.082mil or 82 thousand people.
So if you select 160 thousand smartest (and probably most successfull) people in US, half of them should be jews!
All that is because the difference for z-values of 3.04 and 2.04 is 69 times.
It gets worse the higher you get on the IQ scale at the very edge of teh distribution - the difference for z-values of 3.05 and 2.05 is 101 times!
Out of 50 thousand smartest people most should be jews and out of 100 - 99 should be jews.
There is no surprise that list of names of exceptional individuals in the history of the world has large share of jews. Since jews tend to succeed in whatever they undertake, there is no surprise that many of the world's greatest (most prominent) villains also happened to be jews.
There should be no surprise that 2/3 of the physicists you refer to in your posts are jews too.
Many jews do have a distinct culture - influenced by their intelligence, their historical customs (they engaged in commerce while christians were not allowed to do so but could not engage in agriculture in Russia because they were not allowed to own land), their historical persecution for religious beliefs and for their misinterpreted economical success. Their travels from country to country because of persecution and their spread and familial connections in many countries because of that - having relatives in different countries does wonders for opening your mind.
You also have to remember though that jewish culture is so diverse as to be close to several distinct ones - mostly assimilated/nationalistic, religious/secular, zionist/non-zionist, hasidic/conservative/reformed religious branches.
Great part of younger jews in US do not speak hebrew or yiddish.
Despite common impression, many jews do marry outside their nation. You also have "fundamental" jews who equite such assimilation with dissapearing - as if the blood and DNA do not probabate forever in children, no matter what nation they officially belong to.
Jews do have tradition of education, so a jew was historically more likely to get education then equally intelligent non-jew.
Many jews still perceive world like us-vs-them but it mostly comes from current or recent persecution against jews, not the other way around.
There is no surprise that some less smart/ignorant jews tend to feel superior to the other nation and list the reasons I mentioned before as justification for that.
Most jews being smart and having experienced prosecution/discrimination themselves are very sensitive to the discrimination issues. Jews were major supporters of desegregation. ACLU is probably mostly jewish too.
Name me one country/nation some members of which that do not sometimes vocally express opinions of their supriority? World outside thinks that not jews but americans are the most arrogant nation - this board can present many examples. How about britons, french, japanese, russians?
The Bible (Old Testament) passages you refer to where God proclaims jews selected people and the rest dirt subject to eradication do not reflect the opinions of jews.
First, most jews I know have never read Bible.
Second, christians often used the same passages for their justification of maltreatments of others. Bible being allegorical it is easy to stretch the definition of "chosen people" to christians and at the same time exclude jews from that definition.
Third, many religious books of other faiths proclaim their superiority over other people.
So people maltreating others - is not a jewish problem - they are just more prominent and easier to point to. There is no more tendency in jews to become scoundrels then in any other nation.
Of course big question is do people really differ in intelligence. I am finishing an exellent work "The g Factor" by Arthur Jensen on that subject and I also recomment "The Bell Curve" by Herrnstein and Murray.
Many people do not want to believe that differences in intelligence are real and mostly genetic - it makes the world a bleak place. Not much could be done to reduce disparity. Many of the social programs lose their sense.
Still, that is the world we live in. Not designed to be fair. The only reliable way for an individual to make his/her children more intelligent is to marry a more intelligent person and have a balanced diet.
Of course it is possible to breed smarter group of people and many are engaged in eugenic/genetic research but I see no point - it does not benefit anyone currently living.
There is also natural strong eugennic factor working in US well described in "The Bell Curve" which will overshadow the jewish intelligence discrepancy relatively soon.
Curiously, if you do the search of eugenic websites, you can see that some subscribe to the theory that differences in intelligence are real and it's jews who are supressing that knowlege - in hopes to prevent eugenic research in order to stay the smartest nation on Earth. Which is obviously stupid.
Would grand-grandchildren of the current jews be better off being the smartest people on earth in 200 years or would they be better off living among smarter people, even if they are relatively not as much smarter as now? The answer is obvious. You see many jews supporting the "g" theory as well as refuting it. And those that do refure it are just miinformed, not intentional conspirators.
Speaking of conspiracy. Hard to believe that jews would have successfull one going for hundreds of years and achieve so little outside of personal welth and contriburion to science/economy of otehr people. No control of any state, dislike from many other nations, near exterminations by nazis with no influence on any nation to accept refugees (except danes - and I do not think those people were not under jewish influence when they tried to save the few they could).
No coordination whatsoever - a lot of capitalists killed in russia were jews but a lot of revolutionaries were jews too.
It's even harder to believe that someone would keep alive such lousy conspiracy even if it was ever created.
On the closing note, let me repeat my view on Israel. Some jews tried to create state where they will not be in danger of extermination by other people.
Obviously there is much greater chance now for jews in Israel to be exterminated then if they lived in other countries.
There are no reasons outside religious and 3000yr old historical for them to live there. I am sure jews could have aquired/bought some land elsewhere. You could hardly find worse climate then in Israel.
Considering how much talent is concentared in Israel, it is very wastefull for those jews and mankind to have them play farmers and soldiers when they could have been contributing to science, technology and economy of the world.
Most jews in Israel are not religious and most would not care to die or risk their children for the sake of 3000-year old arguments. They would leave if some decent country would let them in. Right now many are waiting for their application to immigrate to Canada to be approved.
The same is true of many palestinians - no countries accept them (including arab countries) and they would gladly leave in peace with Israel if allowed.
Admitting them all to US would solve many of the world problems and benefit US enormously. Countries with larger populations are closing the technology gap.
We could use more brains and more people here if we do want to stay a first-tier country in the future.
Wow, lot of stuff! Excuse me - I did not have time to write briefly...
miko
[ 11-08-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]
-
I am not a nazi, or a jew hater.
I don't subscribe to the concept that jews are a 'race'.
I don't subscribe to the concept that there is a worldwide 'jewish conspiracy'.
I don't subscribe to the novel precept that 'jews are smarter than everybody else'
I do consider the actions of the jewish nation of Israel towards the people of palestine to be incredibly short sighted.
I do believe that a 'jewish old boy network' exists in buisness circles here, that this clannish group is involved in self enhancement and enrichment of fellow 'jewish old boys' and remains aloof and indiffrent to the needs of non-jews it co-exists with as well as the greater nation it lives in. In other words, their motives can often be interpeted as questionable at best, treasonous at worst.
I also believe that the government of our country has been a great friend of the jewish nation, and has for it's trouble recieved a pretty raw deal. The brutal attack on the Liberty comes to mind along with documented acts of hostile espionage within our borders.. these are among MANY hostile and inexcuseable acts perpetrated against our nation by Israel.
We are all in this nation of our birth AMERICANS first. Not Blacks or Whites or hispanics or jewish... AMERICANS. Anyone who lives here, works here, enjoys the rights and rewards of freedom and liberty bestowed upon us by those who trod the battlefields of the past who then TURNS HIS BACK on the nation of his birth to pay lip service, homage and support to any FORIGEN NATION involved in hostile acts against America and Americans is a diddlyin freeloadin piece of toejam.
The actions of a few have the potential for disasterous repercussions against a majority who do not subscribe to the minority views.
Of course; thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.
-
thanks for the civil post mikod, i know i have a lot of bad things to say about your people, but as I mentioned in another thread, I am not interested in pursuing this line any further because i think it's gone far enough already and those views should probably be kept of a forum like this.
I did want to offer some response though, since you went thru all that effort and busted out your z tables and all ;)
“IQ 130 is a minimum for serious executive/scientific position”
that correlation would have to be true to go any further and quite simply, it isn't.
i dont think ive ever seen a stockbroker with an iq that high! many of the successes i have met got that way because they didnt have any scruples about selling garbage to gullible people or exploiting a niche that others would dare get involved in for moral reasons.
by the same token, i have seen geniuses(genii) with a needle in their arm hoping their next painting sells before the money runs out.
in the end, my perceptioun of nepotism is only a fraction of the problem, it's a problem of respect - or rather lack of it. it isn't a good v. evil problem but many nonreligious jews still buy into the superiority taught by their religion.
it is where money stands as a priority over social responsibility and the tendency to argue and nitpick endlessly over minutia and make people lives miserable and a total lack of humility or respect for the little guy and a host of other issues that i don't really want to harp on anymore. they do alot of things that make the world less happy imo thats it.
besides, i am about 10min away from ingesting some mushrooms and heading to the beach with my telescope and my wife. it is one of the few fog free nights in the city and despite the hideous light polution i think i feel like kicking back and hunting for messier objects and listening to the waves come in. ;)
see ya-
-
Originally posted by Hangtime:
. Anyone who lives here, works here, enjoys the rights and rewards of freedom and liberty bestowed upon us by those who trod the battlefields of the past who then TURNS HIS BACK on the nation of his birth to pay lip service, homage and support to any FORIGEN NATION involved in hostile acts against America and Americans is a diddlyin freeloadin piece of toejam.
The actions of a few have the potential for disasterous repercussions against a majority who do not subscribe to the minority views.
Of course; thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.
man, everytime i read one of hang's posts i'm like "did i say something? think, think didnt say anything that coul be interpreted as unamerican - did i?"
lol - i dont want hangtime mad at me for some reason - i didnt do it man! god bless the usa woohoo!
ducks, runs :)
-
Chit, fishy; I'm such a freakin rabid nationalist I scare myself sometimes.
;)
-
"IQ 130 is a minimum for serious executive/scientific position"
Umm.. what's Pres. Bush's IQ again?
Oh my... ;) :D
-
i also have to disagree with the 130 iq thing and agree with mrfish on his take on that statement.
i've seen many sucessfull morons who where succesful simply because they had no concience.
i have no real opinion on the jewish thing though, haven't really met enough to form any sort of general opinions (i try to avoid general opinions about groups of people anyway) actually i think i've only met 1 jew that i know of, a surgeon who did some really fine work rebuilding my arm.
-
Miko,
That is the most unsubstatiated load of bigot diatribe I have ever seen before in my life.
I take that back. It is reminisent of something the Arian Nation would publish... or something Hitler's propaganda wagon would have distributed in Germany.
Simply... using IQ to describe any kind of advantage/superiority as if it was actually a scientific method is simply ludicrous. Any argument based on such assumptions would in turn be ludicrous.
That you seem to think they are fact based speaks volumes right about now.
You can read all the books you want to substantiate your claims in the above. I'll go on living life. In my life I'll continue to find inteligence to be ignorant of skin color or racial background. In your life you can continue to have inteligence defined via statistics.
Wow... fricking amazing.
AKDejaVu
-
There is no direct corilation between high IQ and achievement. While I would admit that your average scientist would have a Higher IQ then the norm most of that is probably attributable to having none in the 70-100 range as much as having lots in the 145-155 range.
I dont know much about the science of statistics but the same could be true if your statemtent about Jewish racial supperiority is true.
Even if it is true that the avarage Jew is 15 iq points smarter then the average gentile(is that the opisite of jew?) it doesnt follow automatically that the percentage of Gentiles with an IQ of 130 is the same as the % of Jews with 145..which is what you are saying.
The same stat could be accomplished by haveing many fewer jews with IQs in the very low ranges.
-
Spent a lot of time trying, but never did find the group that did the following back in the late 80's. will search more tomorrow.
They took a group of post grad students and gave them all standard IQ tests. Then they gave them all identical written and practical tests on driving, following instructions, and common sense.
The results were, that at any level of IQ, those tested that did the best on the written tests did the worst on the practical tests, and those who did worst on the written did best on the practical. I.E.: Those who could pass all the written driving tests with flying colors were in practice the worst drivers. Those who could follow exam instructions to the letter were the worst at actually building something from a set of instructions.
The breakdown came in the common sense category where all levels of IQ the subjects excelled/or were miserable failures on both written and practical tests.
The same tests were then administered to a test group of just everyday people gathered off the street and the results were the same.
Their conclusion was that IQ DOES NOT translate to doing well in practical everyday applications.
I have personally seen this theory in effect, in real life, in a person I know well. This person can write hundreds of lines of code in machine language and it works the first time! (I swear the guy dreams in machine code) But the same guy can lose his boarding pass twice on the same flight. He also has the annoying tendency, when on the phone, to just hang up when he is finished speaking, no good by no nuttin you just suddenly have a dead line.
A true genius with out a lick of common sense
I also will look up (I think it was a Yale study) the results of persons that can learn on their own vs those who must be taught. (Yes Virginia there is a huge difference, that also has nothing to do with raw IQ) As I remember those results were interesting also
-
" involved in hostile acts against America and Americans is a diddlyin freeloadin piece of toejam."
Hang. I think you are ready for the diplomatic core.
-
I have an IQ of 145, that's means I am jews? :confused: :confused:
Doh!!
:)
-
Oh, wait, i miss the 0.6 to be jews, I can be still atheist. :rolleyes:
:cool:
-
Hello....
The jews, the christs, the moslems...
The root of all conflicts is religion...
We are at this times able to create a human on our own, without god...
So what advantage god have??? :D
Jv44 (Andreas)
-
Let go of my eggo or I'll put a cap in your gimpy ass.
xBAT
-
i think its time for some.......
beer!
-
We are at this times able to create a human on our own, without god...
So what advantage god have???
Truly the end of times draws near.
-
Well, we've been down the IQ road before Miko :)
Let me ask you this question.
Europian Jews date couple thousands years back, you'll agree with me when i say that they lived in just about every corner of the europe.
As you noted yourself, they integrated in some cultures more or less, but overall in general they did not create totally separate cultural casts. I say this from personal experiance of having lot of uncles and aunts who are cathlics married to jew, or vice versa.
( let me underline that in my mind Judeism is a religion not a race )
Now, if you agree with me on the fact that europian jews have lived and assimilated with europans of all backgrounds for 2000 years, then i dare you to give me a example of "pure europian jew", define his genetic characteristics, physical ones...
How many of those you run the tests on happend to have grand mother who might have been russian, german, polish, french ? who accepted her husband's faith ? Or other way around ?
Bottom line, i agree with DejaVu.
There is no Jewish race, there are people who choice to have jeduism as their faith.
I can be a jew tomorrow if i choose to do so, will that change my genetic make up ?
Who idea smacks of rasism, and i cannot conciously agree with it.
I will give you one thing though: Jewish communities all over the world are absolutely world champions at mutual support, helping out, keeping together.
I don't mean this in derogatory fashion, quite an opposite. It is admirable that one would help others of same faith/national background. We all should take good example from that....
They also have a great tradidtion of education, which again, is commandable.
-
First, What Hang said!
Second, about the IQ issue. The jury is out on that question due to lack of relevant and double blind research testing. Dunno what my "IQ" is and don't care. I tested for entry into a Masters program and landed in the 95th percentile of cantidates. That test score and a dollar get me a coffee at the local diner........ :rolleyes:
Third, debating about this type of issue is about as relevant as the older debate..... Lessee what was that one?????
OH YEAH!!! Just how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin???? Given it is a straight pin with a 1mm head.
PS. It doesn't matter so much about how MUCH intelligence you have. Instead it matters much more how much you USE the intellegence you have.
(http://www.13thtas.com/mav13sig.jpg)
[ 11-09-2001: Message edited by: Maverick ]
-
I'm just glad one can be stupid and still be Italian :)
IQ = -50 and dropping everytime I read an IQ thread...
-
I'm just glad one can be stupid and still be Italian
A man wanted to marry a Polish gal. When he went to her father to ask for permission, the father said he could not allow his daughter to marry a man that wasn't polish.
Not to be detered, the man went to a doctor and asked if there was a way to make him Polish. The doctor said there was, but it involved removing 1/4 of his brain. The man, lost in his love for this woman, agreed to have the surgery.
After the surgery, the man regained consciousness as the doctor nervously observed. The doctor immediately informed him that he was going to be alright, but there had been a minor problem with the surgery. Instead of removing 1/4 of his brain, they'd inadvertantly removed 1/2 of his brain.
The man simply replied "MOMMA MIA!"
AKDejaVu
-
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
A man wanted to marry a Polish gal. When he went to her father to ask for permission, the father said he could not allow his daughter to marry a man that wasn't polish.
Not to be detered, the man went to a doctor and asked if there was a way to make him Polish. The doctor said there was, but it involved removing 1/4 of his brain. The man, lost in his love for this woman, agreed to have the surgery.
After the surgery, the man regained consciousness as the doctor nervously observed. The doctor immediately informed him that he was going to be alright, but there had been a minor problem with the surgery. Instead of removing 1/4 of his brain, they'd inadvertantly removed 1/2 of his brain.
The man simply replied "MOMMA MIA!"
AKDejaVu
So, did you still get to marry her? :)
-
For Fishy:
Whats the diffrence between a jew and a canoe?
The canoe tips.
:)
---
An american retiree returns from a trip to europe. When asked about his experiences in the old country he replies: "Bah. No great shakes. The place was filled with foreginers."
----
As a sign of the times, we can tell that the economy is in a downturn.. I saw a lawyer with his hands in his own pockets today.
-
Why do Rabbi's like to do circumscisions?
(They get to keep the tips)
-
Rabbi walks into a taxidermy shop. He tells the guy he has saved up all the foreskins from his career and wants them turned into something.
The taxidermist asks what and the rabbi tells him to surprise him.
A couple of weeks later the rabbi comes back and the taxidermist hands him a wallet.
The rabbi asks, "Is that all? I thought it would be something a lot bigger?"
The taxidermist replies, "It's a wallet now, but if you rub it, it turns into a suitcase."
-
Just wanderin around yaknow when I ran across this thread of unbelieveable drivel. I wasn't gonna reply till y'all started tellin jokes at th end.
So, two things: 1) there are only three races, Negroid, Caucasoid and Mongoloid, all the rest that are wrongly classified as races are in fact ethnicities.
2) a joke
A Rabbi and a Priest are walking down the street having a conversation when the Priest notices a very cute boy of about 8 years approaching them on the street. The Priest turns to the Rabbi and says, "my, what a cute little boy. Let's diddly him. "
The Rabbi thinks for a second and says, "out of what?"
Im done
Buzzard
-
I'll add my own $1 here.
Robert Sternberg is a man who's done much in the area of psychometric (i.e the measuring of mental abilities). He has constructed several tests - when he found out his previous ones were biased, he made new ones, yet he doesn't seem too happy about it. In Skeptic's magazine, he was interviewd about tthe book The Bell Curve, from which Mikod has gotten most of his info.
Worth noticing is that that book was written for the media - not for sicentists. It tries to portray that scientists are in agreement of its conclusions, but the truth is different. I'll quote from the interview.
Sternberg: I think that there is definitely some heritability of intelligence in the White population. Almost every psychologist believes there is some
heritability of IQ and I agree. But the public may not understand just what that means. If you accept the use of the heritability statistic, about .5 is probably
right.
Skeptic: Can you explain wherein the general public's conception or the media's description of what is meant by heritability is wrong?
Sternberg: The commonplace understanding of heritability often doesn't realize that heritability is calculated within a range of environments, at a given time,
for a given population. So heritability is not the same in every population. In fact there is wide variation in populations over time and space. It is not a fixed
statistic. The value you obtain (for heritability) depends on the population, where it is, and when it is. But the major misunderstanding relates to the role of
the environment and to the role of teachability. With respect to teachability, even if heritability is fairly high, it does not mean that we cannot modify
intelligence.
Skeptic: They do review studies that deal with race differences.
Sternberg: Yes, but there is evidence that they do not review at all. There is nothing in the book that suggests that race differences are genetic. They even say
that. But what they do say is that is what we would infer given the data, even though probably somewhere else, they would have one sentence to the effect that
there is one study. And they don't cite a number of studies that suggest that race differences are not genetic.
Ah yes, agreement amongst sicentists. I'd call it an intellectually dishonest work.
Skeptic: Which studies don't Herrnstein and Murray cite?
Sternberg: Well, one study that they cite and distort the results of is the Scarr-Weinberg study. What Scarr-Weinberg and several people have done is look at blood groups (associated with Whiteness or Blackness), or skin color, and looked at the correlation with IQ. The typical correlation is about .15, suggesting
that you are accounting for about 1-2% of the variance. And even that less than 2% could be due to the way darker versus lighter people are treated. So when you look at the studies that have been done, they counter-indicate the conclusion that Herrnstein and Murray draw.
Ouch.
Skeptic: You say that Herrnstein and Murray build their whole argument on the (often wrong) interpretations of statistics. Can you be more specific?
Sternberg: One example is taking studies that show that within group heritabilities have nothing to do with between group heritabilities and then insinuating
that they do. Another example is the issue of causation and correlation. They know, and anyone who takes statistics knows, you can't draw any real causal
conclusions from correlational data. Lots of things correlate with lots of things, IQ being one of them. To draw causal inferences from correlational data,
which is what all their data are, is statistically incorrect. Another thing that many may not realize is that virtually all their data are based on one study, the
National Longitudinal Study of Youth (NLSY), which was not a study that was particularly representative of the United States population.
Skeptic: In what sense?
Sternberg: The mean was low. I think the mean IQ in that group was around 94 and the standard deviation was not 15 or 16. It was not a typical US
population. Another thing they do, in comparing correlations, is that they don't take into account the reliability and precision of the measures being used. For
example, almost every measure we use is a proxy for something else. If you ask yourself, "How good is 'number of years of schooling' for measuring how
much education a person has?" it's not a very good measure. Two people could each have 16 years of schooling, but if you compare somebody who was a
straight A student in a really good college with someone who was a D student in a really poor college, the number of years of education will be the same but
their educational attainments will be vastly different. So as a measure of how much schooling you have really had, years of education is extremely imprecise
and it's not going to look very good in correlational analyses. In contrast, IQ is a pretty good measure of that narrow construct, compared to the other types of measurement that we have. That will make IQ look more powerful than the other measures because the other measures are such crude proxies for the
constructs that they are trying to measure.
Yay.
-
b]Skeptic: How do you square that with, for example, Herman Spitz (who signed the The Wall Street Journal statement) or even Zigler, who is one of the
gurus of Head Start, who says, "It does great things for keeping children in school and out of jail, but IQ isn't something that we can really move around a lot,
we just don't know how to do it." Again, there appears to be a contradiction between what the authorities say.
Sternberg: I don't think there would be that big a difference between me and Zigler. You can get some increases. I don't think we know how to get really
large, long term increases. On the other hand, we're talking about work that's been around for maybe 30 years. If you ask, "how far had medicine gone in 30
years after its inception, say in Ancient Greece in terms of curing illness," it wasn't that hot either. We have just started on this kind of work. You can't expect
that in a fairly short amount of time we will have figured exactly what to do. This field just isn't at that point yet[/b]
Ayup.
About experiments in general:
Sternberg: When I was very young, I did poorly on IQ tests because I was test anxious. The result was that teachers had low expectations for me and I wanted
to please my teachers. So I met their low expectations. They were happy and I was happy that they were happy. I've been there and I've seen it happen to lots
of people I know. I got over my test anxiety and then did extremely well on tests. All of a sudden the expectations were high. To a large extent it becomes a
self-fulfilling prophecy, either way. So when you tell me that IQ predicts later success, sure it does. You get low scores on your tests, everything starts to change in your life and you're on a downhill slide. It's not a controlled experiment, because the very score itself is having an effect on where you're going to be allowed to go.
I'll have more.
On a sidenote. According to the theory of evolution, hwich basically is change of allele frequency in a population over time, change does take place, but it takes a significant period of time. 2000 years usually ain't enough to do it, unless you selectively breed a species. To suggest that because a group of humans have studied more for the last 1000 years and therefore, as a group, are more intelligent than another is not correct.
Will have more on the Bell Curve shortly.
You might also check out http://slate.msn.com/?id=2416 (http://slate.msn.com/?id=2416) for an article with references to studies which are clear indicators regarding the correctness of the authors conclusions. The authors have a tendency to use a technique where you first present a lot of evidence - then make a huge jump and come to a concluions that is half based on the evidence, and half based on nothing. Also, the evidence itself needs to be evaluated for correctness.
-
OK, guys.
Thanks for your attention.
The good news is that whatever we think or consider true does not really have any bearing on whether some phenomenon really exists.
The matters are only different when we try to act on the information we believe true when it isn't. Most of the time acting on incorrect information does not bring immediate disasterous results - then it would be be too simple to tell which way is up. :)
Sometime predictions can be made and the outcome examined, but in social sciences it may take years/generations and by that time no one remembers the original prophets and the whole thing starts over.
Some people insist that intelligence is real and inheritable trait, that it is strongly corellated with achievement, that races and ethnicities are natural phenomenon, that being a jew is an ethnicity.
Other consider those views false. Obviously both cannot be right.
Naturally, my views do not agree with views of many others. I do not really have any desire to change anyone's view here - at least not if it involves much effort. After all that effort would be just me retyping hundreds of pages that anyone can read himself.
If you do not agree with the summaries I made in my post, it may be even better reason for you to read the books I referred to.
I am not going to argue the points here. I do regret that some people resorted to personal and most untruthfull attack in this thread:
AKDejaVu: That is the most unsubstatiated load of bigot diatribe I have ever seen before in my life.
It is your choice to call me whatever you wish for citing the view you find not to your liking. But you can hardly call my statements "unsubstantiated" when I provided reference to books totalling about 1500 pages - both with extensive bibliography section.
In fact I freely admit that I may be wrong and I hoped to get referrals to good books that argue the issues to the contrary.
StSanta - thanks for the reference to Sternberg. I will look him up.
You are wrong about me getting most of my info from "The Bell Curve". It is a book directed to non-professional reader but hardly "for the media". It only covers one issue based mostly on one survey - the social implications of intelligence. It is only 800 pages, so in the first chapter it just lists the assumptions they base their research on. Jencen's work is much more definitive (and boring) in covering those basics.
Regards,
miko
-
Miko,
Because it was written down does not make it substantiated. Learn that please. Learn it soon.
Also, find a way that inteligence can be measured accurately across any cultural divide. Please.
Until then.. it is bogus data. You cannot average the inteligence of a race and present it as if its evidence of anything. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. The fact that it is even attempted will always be representative of bigotry and racism. Learn that too. Please.
AKDejaVu
-
I hate to get involved in a topic like this, because I'm sworn to protect and defend any and all Americans, regardless of race, religion, creed, or anything else. But I have to agree with DejaVu on one point: The statistics.
Anyone who's had a basic course in statistics will realize that the sample size can greatly skewer the results of any experiment. Comparing 6 million jews to the other 5.4 billion people on the planet is a grossly misrepresentative sample, and any statistician would agree that the data could not be used reliably.
I have no opinion on the Jewish subject one way or the other, I just think that before making such bold claims, you ought to check your research a little more.
-
Some time happens, and this time I agree with DJV.
As for the IQ debate, is still unknow if the actual test has some scientific value, not counting the fact that there are different faces of inteligence.
IMHO, the IQ test is inaccurate at best.
As for the jews debate, I believe that judaism is a religion, and jews are the follower of this religion, not a race, there are strong community of jews of caucasian and negroid race (and i guess some mongolic too).
Finally, the achievements of a particular men, with the exception of a small contribute of genetic, are IMHO for most part result of the environment in witch he develop.
Said that, when I see someone justifying the social differences between races with genetics, one simple word jump on my mind:
racism
Like it or not it's the only description suited.
This argumenting about genetical superiority of races remind me the propaganda used during our dark period (I mean Italy and Germany) to justify the extermination of the "untermensch/subumani" (so were called jews and black).
[edit]
Last, but not least, for a men that posted perfectly in theme for this racism topic, a men well suited to wear a black uniform with a svastika on the shoulder. ;)
Yes, italian are stupid, an italian made the more stupid move in history: Cristoforo Colombo!! :p :D
eh eh eh, take this.! :D
[/edit]
[ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: Naso ]
-
Why don't Italians like Jehovahs Witnesses?
Italians don't like ANY Witnesses. :)
-
In regards to the IQ part, I'll take "common sense" over IQ anyday, since most with high IQ's have NO common sense whatsoever. :D
-
Originally posted by Hangtime:
Why don't Italians like Jehovahs Witnesses?
Italians don't like ANY Witnesses. :)
(with Marlon Brando's voice):
Witnesses??
what means??
;)
-
LOL Naso.. I was unsure if anybody that lived outside of NYC would get that. :D
-
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
Because it was written down does not make it substantiated. Learn that please. Learn it soon.
You surely sound like everything you write down is absolute truth.
The books I read are scientific - they do not make any dogmatic statements. They present the current state of knowlege as working hypotesis and they never state that their hypotesis are final.
Ways to measure abilities across cultural divide have been being developed for decades. It may not be perfect yet but it is quite developed branch of psychometrics. The data it yield may not be 99.99% perfect yet but I would not call it bogus.
Intelligence is not averaged anywhere. In fact there is yet no such term as "intelligence" in science. The analytical constructs like g and IQ can be introduced and mathematically manipulated - mostly using statistics.
There are plenty of artificial constructs in other sciences - like force in physics for example. Force is not a natural phenomenon but force concept is used successfully for practical purposes.
It is hard to argue with you when you are extremely non-specific as to what you consider fallacious in the research I reffer to.
IQ or any other test score reflects cognitive abilities to some extent. If the tests are well designed, the scores are normally distributed and can be manipulated mathematically.
There are plenty of tests that are not culturally loaded.
Forward and backward digit span; perception time of which line is longer; reaction time on elemantary task that does not involve consious action; neural propagation velocity; frequency of certain brain waives; responce time, shape and amplitude of brain waves in responce to simple stimulus (click); brain glucose metabolic rate; consistency of all those measurements (standard devation) - all of them are easily measured, absolutely not culture-related and show statistically significant differences for individuals and groups.
MJ: The same statistics can be used to see if a sample is sufficient and the results are meaningfull. Most studies do well with hundreds of subjects, not millions or billions.
Hangtime: I don't subscribe to the concept that jews are a 'race'
Some people state that jews are religion, not etnic group. That statement is easy to disprove by finding just one person who is a jew but not reliogous.
About 2 million people in Soviet Union had "jew" in their passport while neither they nor their parents ever considered themselves religious. More then half the people in Israel are not religious and they think they are jews. Lot of people in US think of themselves as jews and are not religious. 3000 years ago the nation of jews lived next to arabs. Since then they moved around. Arabs are still a nation, why not jews. Besides, gene analysis will easily tell a jew from a non-jew.
There are specific medical and genetic pecularities that any doctor knows about jews.
Pongo: Even if it is true that the avarage Jew is 15 iq points smarter then the average gentile(is that the opisite of jew?) it doesnt follow automatically that the percentage of Gentiles with an IQ of 130 is the same as the % of Jews with 145..which is what you are saying
That is exactly what normal distribution means. And the IQ scores of jews and non-jews are normally distributed. In fact, the IQ test is designed specifically to be normally distributed. The mean is 100 and standard deviation is 15. You can automatically convert percentile to the IQ score and vice-versa.
Pongo: There is no direct corilation between high IQ and achievement
Of couse there is no direct corellation. There is no such thing all. You confuse corellation with causation. Corellation means that things are statistically related to a certain degree. So if corellation is high, then presence of certain thing indicates some probability of another thing - probability, not necessity. Example: with height 6'7" you are twenty times as likely to a basketball player. It does not meant that you are or even that most people 6'7" are. But 20 times difference is very significant.
MRBill: They took a group of post grad students and gave them all standard IQ tests. Then they gave them all identical written and practical tests on driving, following instructions, and common sense.
...those tested that did the best on the written tests did the worst on the practical tests...
First, if one thing is known about the brain function is that there is no limited capacity there that will cause someone to perform purely on one test if he performed well on another test. In fact quite the opposite. The whole concept of g is based on the fact that all mental abilities are positively corellated - if you are good at something, you are likely to be good in everything else.
Second, there is such concept as limiting the range. That is why the study does not sound plausible to me - unless it involved many thousands of subjects. Once you select people according to some ability, that ability plays smaller and smaller role in their comparisons the higher or more narrow you go on the scale. Post grad students most likely have IQ within a range of 5 points - about 130. How it is possible to relate anything to IQ if it is so preselected already?
Example - people who are 6'7" are generally - on average - much better at basketball then average people. In fact the taller - the better till some value after which it gets worse.
But if you take 100 professional basketball players with height 6'5" to 6'8" and analyze their performance based on height, you will not find any corellation.
IMrbill: I have personally seen this theory in effect, in real life, in a person I know well. This person can write hundreds of lines of code in machine language and it works the first time! (I swear the guy dreams in machine code) But the same guy can lose his boarding pass twice on the same flight
First, statistics cannot predict anything regarding an individual. Second, standard distribution or correlation not only does not prevent from certain percentage of people with high IQ from being at the bottom, it actually predicts how many such people you should encounter from reasonably large sample.
Second, you confuse cognitive abilities with personality aspects. Study of personality is very interesting and developed aspect of psychology. Of couse personality affect person's chances of success in real life - things like energy level, concentration, motivation, extro/introversion, etc.
IQ studies are only valid for large groups where personality traits average out.
fd ski:
Yes, european jews did assimilate. That means mostly that some jews married non-jews and their children became non-jews. It can be conjectured that less-successfull jews did it more often then more successfull jews and can actually be one of the mechanisms for genetic selection.
Obviously quite a lot of non-jewish blood joined jewish blood - european jews look mostly like european. But the looks can be very deceptive. Obviously alleles that positively affect physical appearance and those that affect inteligence are mostly the dominant ones. So a child of a jew and non-jew may well have appearance more determined by genes from non-jewish side while his intelligence will be closer determined by genes from his jewish side. The non-jewish appearance genes may well be propagated as dominant in his/her progeny along with jewish-derived intelligence genes.
Another selection mechanism is following: while large numbers of unusially smart and capable europeans (outside of in-breeding nobility) chose priesthood - and removed themselves from the gene pool, or joined the army - and reduced their chances to procreate. Job choices were limited then...
At the same time pointless expertise in studying books was valued very highly among jews. A poor fellow famous for his wit had no problem marrying a daughter of a wealthy man - and had a lot of children.
A thousand years of that and you can get far from where you started.
fd ski: There is no Jewish race, there are people who choice to have jeduism as their faith.
That is plain noncence and ignorance - contrary to observable facts. In case I am wrong, where does your expertise in the matter come from?
StSanta:
I've read Robert Sternberg's articles. It seems that what he calls "practical intelligence" is more likely a personality trait. He was affected by test anxiety in the childhood and made it a basis of his research. While test anxiety is real and very-well researched subject, exitability is a personality/physiology ytait quite separate from cognitive abilites. It is of course greatly affect how effectively those abilities are used in many situations.
He does not have anything against the concept of g or heritability and is very carefull in his wording.
Considering how much heat this topic generates and all the accusations of racism, I cannot imagine many scientists risking their careers with doing (or at least speaking) about such research if they do support Jencen & Co.
Herrnstein and Murray do not list many studies concerning race but Jencen does - beautifull culture and motivation-free tests) and they explicitely base their research on his work.
As for agreement among scientists, if there is one thing more irrelevant to the truth, it should be hard to find. All schientists admit that. H&M and Jencen do list quite a lot of disagreeing points of view.
I would also not compare the rate of development of psychometrics in the last 100 years (not 30) - based on teh state of the art mathematical tools and equipment - with the rate of development of medicine in teh arbitrary 30 years of Ancient Greece.
2000 years usually ain't enough to do it, unless you selectively breed a species.
One of "The Bell Curve" more important subjects is development of cogntive elite in USA over the last three generations. If true, ther rate is significant - even though the US cognitive elite probably has much fewer children per family then jews in middle ages.
Guys, I understand you righteous wrath about the topic, but usually when you argue a hypothesis, you infer predictions from it and then test them.
Like: if A was true, then in situation B we would see C present which we don't. Or something like that.
Here is an example:
Jews are more mutually supportive then other nations. They have lot of influence in US. They keep helping Israel.
Those statements are mutually contradictive.
Jews in US can easily move to Israel - there are certain advantages there for them. The fact that they do not care to do so means that they like living in America much more.
So if they cared about jews in Israel, they would have arranged for immigration from there to US to be open. That is clearly not the case - many jews in Israel are trying to come here or to Canada.
After all any jew from Soviet Union could get in here if he managed to get out.
Israeli jews are highly edicated people speaking english accustomed to living in wester democracy and tehre is no more then 3 mil of them. We have millions of people coming here every year with completely foreign background and no education/language/social skills that require generations to get accustomed and it is not a problem for us.
I guess american jews do not care enough or do not have enough influence to do that for israeli jews.
So how can you care enough and have inflience enough to help a country in war and make US spend billions of $$ and risk itself politically, but not have care/influence enough to arrange simple immigration?
miko
[ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]
-
Miko2d and all I have been unable to uncover any of the links that I was looking for so I will bow out on this subject. I do remember reading a statement made in a book by S Freud or C.G. Jung (I can't remember which)
but it was to the effect that a species that uses only 10% (or was it 30% I forget) of their brain can never hope to understand the workings or powers of the brain. But then that likely has to do more with psychology/psychogenics than raw intellect/intelligence, and nothing whatsoever to do with statistics.
MrBill's daffynition of statistics.
statistics: a group of numbers that can be manipulated to prove or disprove any theory at the whim of the manipulator. :D
-
Some people state that jews are religion, not etnic group. That statement is easy to disprove by finding just one person who is a jew but not reliogous.
Congratulations. You just found new races of Chistians, Protestants, Muslims , Buddists and about 100 others.
That is plain noncence and ignorance - contrary to observable facts. In case I am wrong, where does your expertise in the matter come from?
Here you go http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm (http://www.aaanet.org/stmts/racepp.htm)
-----------------------------------------
Please elaborate about differences that doctor would notice, other then circumcision.
-
Please elaborate about differences that doctor would notice, other then circumcision.
The incessant whining about the delay in the waiting room, the squeaking about the cold table, the draft on the gown; the deductible on the health plan... all come to mind.
:D
(j/K)
-
wow - i tried to stay an observer only to this thread - but some of these replies are priceless. some thought provoking too to be fair...
no wonder the jews have the impression they do of gentiles - lol -
i have a new weird respect for mikod though i have to admit a constructionist like bruno latour would have a field day with some of your 'proofs'. ;)
-
I scanned this thread for any sign of intelligent reasoning, and found none. Further, I think it serves no purpose whatsoever. Finally, it is full of generalities, misinformation, and prejudice.
I fear that history will inevitably repeat itself, as humans seem incapable of learning from their own mistakes. At least, within the bounds of those posting here.
-
Required reading for anyone posting to this thread:
The Mismeasure of Man - Stephen Jay Gould
Guns, Germs and Steel - Jared Diamond
Both Jews. Eek!
-
I've been flying multiplayer flight sims for over 10 years, and I have to say that this thread is a candidate for "Most Bizzare and Absurd Thread in a Flight Sim BBS."
Here's a little fact for you:
There is no absolute definition of what a Jew is.
Anyone, from any race or ethnic background, can convert to Judaism. There are blond haired, blue eyed Jews. There are Sephardic Jews. There are Arab Jews. There are European Jews. There are Orthodox Jews and Conservative Jews and Reform Jews and Jews in reform school. There are even Jews who don't want to be Jews, but are Jews nonetheless, because their mothers were Jewish.
There are atheist Jews and devout Jews and Jews who believe Jesus was the Messiah. There are smart Jews and dumb Jews and Jews who think they're smart, but aren't. Hell, there are even Jews who don't know that they're Jewish!
There is one thing for absolute certain, though: Whether a Jew thinks he's a Jew or wants to be a Jew or is convinced he isn't a Jew, people like Hitler will find some "Jewish blood" somewhere in his family tree (maybe his great, great grandmother) and Presto! He's off to a concentration camp, whether he's circumcised or not.
So, please: Take all of this pseudoscientific crap and shove it, will you? We've got enough problems.
Stiletto
-
Originally posted by Stiletto:
I've been flying multiplayer flight sims for over 10 years, and I have to say that this thread is a candidate for "Most Bizzare and Absurd Thread in a Flight Sim BBS."
Here's a little fact for you:
There is no absolute definition of what a Jew is.
Anyone, from any race or ethnic background, can convert to Judaism. There are blond haired, blue eyed Jews. There are Sephardic Jews. There are Arab Jews. There are European Jews. There are Orthodox Jews and Conservative Jews and Reform Jews and Jews in reform school. There are even Jews who don't want to be Jews, but are Jews nonetheless, because their mothers were Jewish.
There are atheist Jews and devout Jews and Jews who believe Jesus was the Messiah. There are smart Jews and dumb Jews and Jews who think they're smart, but aren't. Hell, there are even Jews who don't know that they're Jewish!
There is one thing for absolute certain, though: Whether a Jew thinks he's a Jew or wants to be a Jew or is convinced he isn't a Jew, people like Hitler will find some "Jewish blood" somewhere in his family tree (maybe his great, great grandmother) and Presto! He's off to a concentration camp, whether he's circumcised or not.
So, please: Take all of this pseudoscientific crap and shove it, will you? We've got enough problems.
Stiletto
finally some light in this crazy world! ;)
But anyway, open your eyes, the world is ready for a new Adolph, dont forget that history is a circle.
But I have some clue about from where mr.new nazi will come ;)
(Wow, that's strong! :eek: )
-
lol you guys are talking about jewishness as an ethnicity like it's up for discussion or something. it's not opinion based anymore than being a turk or a greek is. you can be mixed or whatever but jewishness is an ethnicity - all these what if arguments and exceptions are time wasters a greeks a greek, a turks a turk you know it and i know i know it.
you are letting the fact that a religion with the same name exists psych you out :)
- there is a religion called judaism, you can be a religious jew but not an ethnic jew: sammy davis jr for example.
- there is an ethnicity called 'jewish', you can be jewish and have no religious affiliation whatsoever
ALTHOUGH people who are of this faith are likely to be ethnic jews as well because the religion discourages people who aren't of "superior jewish blood" and dont have a lineage tracable to king david from joining and really only takes on a few token converts per year...
mikod's thread is about ethnic jews and has nothing to do with religion. although i would say the cultural attributes of the ethnic jew borrowed heavily from the religion whether they practice or not so its fair game to introduce religious ideals when talking about ethnic jews in a lot of instances.
please learn the distinction - ethnic jews aren't just picked arbitrarily, they share common genetic history and save me the bit about "we all share a common genetic history" we are posting in the real world where you can tell a black guy from a white guy despite their common genetic history.
stating some example like "but what if a jew married a turk and then their kid married an irishman and you dont know! you dont know!" doesnt really offer anything to the crux of the debate.
in fact there is an interesting case about a group of africans in southern africa who have jewish genetic material in their blood which is relatively unadulterated which has prompted all kinds of cool theories but that's beside the point -
i dont agree with mikos superiority theory either but i know the difference between an ethnic and religious jew - i mean really! dont embarass whatever ethnicity you choose to affiliate with by not realizing the distinction.
jews in my experience show an above average intelligence and a below average moral bearing - i can't prove that scientifically only experientially which leaves all kinds of potential for error! that's my take as i see it, i could be dead wrong and make no bones about it!
- trying to show that using science insults science - by offering my experience only, you can hate me or disagree with me all day, but i'm not going to drag science thru the mud in the process. ;)
-
A jew, an arab and a pollack are crossing the sahara.
the jew has a cart filled with money.
the arab has a camel loaded with water.
the pollack is carrying the door off a chevy.
the arab remarks... "when it becomes hot, I shall have water."
the jew remarks.. "when it becomes hot, I shall buy water from you."
the pollack remarks.. "when it gets hot; I'll just roll the damn window down."
[ 11-17-2001: Message edited by: Hangtime ]
-
come on guys this is getting a hell of a lot worse than the arguements of perceived superiority of one plane over another.....
get used to it...it's not the race/religion/creed, however you want to call it...
anyways...nevermind
-
lol hang - well if we're lucky this thread will die with jokes!
[ 11-17-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]