Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: x0847Marine on September 19, 2006, 05:59:36 PM
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The City of Los Angeles has created a law, Council File 03-2062, that effectively turned security guards into cops. I saw this funky looking police car that read "General Services Police" and thought WTF is that?
(http://www.lacity.org/GSD/Security/CarPic.jpg)
I've been out of the cop game, injury retirement, for awhile. It used to be around here the only the top 3% of applicants earned the privilege to call themselves a police officer. I was competing against 125 other people for 3 jobs, out of that 125 only 2 of us passed everything... and that's the way you want it when you're giving someone a gun and entrusting them with the ultimate authority; to deny you of your freedom and shoot you in accordance with the law.
But the City of LA was having a hard time finding qualified people, so they created a City security force of mostly LAPD rejects that patrolled the parks and other City owned property.
These "cops" worked full time with only level II reserve training which is hundreds fewer than real 830.1PC POST certified Police officer. These "cops" make an average of $15 to $20 an Hr, I started at $38hr.
These "police depts" had nothing to do with the LAPD, don't have chiefs but administrators, and have completely separate rules for investigating complaints. LA County has followed suit with "LA County Security", and "Safety Police" made up of LA Sheriff rejects.
Working with them, back then, was a nightmare, if they came across something they were not trained for, which was almost everything, they'd call us to clean up their mess. Their biggest jolly was getting into something while driving to and from libraries / parks... a chance to do something "police".
So the City decided to put them all under 1 Dept, no big deal, and bump up their training, which is good.. but the bottom line here your local Govts are hiring a whole lot of police rejects anyway.
Fail to qualify for LAPD/LASD?, no problem.. we'll still give you a gun, uniform and "Police car" and we'll pay you 1/2 as much. Talk about a "Police State", where I live in North Hollywood all these different "police" agencies cruse around, in large part because of the Metro rail:
LA City School Police
LA County Security Police
LAPD
LA County Sheriffs Dept
LA City General Services Police
Burbank Airport Police
CHP - (AAA w/ a gun police)
SPCALA Police
8 different police agencies, only 3 (LAPD, LASD, CHP) employ fully trained POST (Police Officer Standards & Training) certified "police officers".. the rest hire the rejects.
Maybe its just a personal thing to me, I worked very hard and competed viciously, when needed, just to get to get hired, then trained like a MOFO for 18 weeks in the academy, followed by 6 months of chaos called field training.. It was very hard to make the grade, saying "I'm a police officer" meant something, it separated the groupies from the rock stars. Now these, uh, "alternative police" Depts are making rock stars out of the groupies..
Oh well, just a rant. Look for your local Govt to start giving guns and "police power" to the groupies, its cheaper and easier.. feel safer?
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It could be worse. Sounds like someone went to too many of those seminars on privatizing law enforcement, but lacked the balls to fully implement it.
Sounds like a cluster ****.
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i already have a gun, now if i can just get a badge.
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built in corruption
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General Services is probably a county department. General Services police would be like sheriffs but with jurisdiction only at county facilities.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
General Services is probably a county department. General Services police would be like sheriffs but with jurisdiction only at county facilities.
They used to have "jurisdiction", so called, at specific facilities when they were straight security because security guards can only arrest for crimes committed in their presence.
Making them "police" means they swear to uphold the laws of the State, and are defined by State law; meaning they are cops everywhere now, and can arrest based on probable cause... they are also now covered under entirely different laws on use of deadly force... a HUGE responsibility you dont want handed out to police applicant rejects.
Before, yes, these security dudes drove from place to place, now they have red lights, sirens, "POLICE" on their cars and are cops fully capable of pulling you over... eventhough they probably have 1/2 the training of an LAPD officer driving a black & white... that is my gripe.
Back in the day, that authority was only handed out to a select few for good reason, but local Govts have decided its cheaper to hire police rejects as "alternative police"; costs less to train them, and they work cheap, yet are trusted with the exact same on duty responsibility of blowing off your head based on thier judgement? Judgement that for whatever reason wasn't good enough for a regular police Dept...
It just bugs me "they' are making cops out of those, who just 10 years ago, were non hackers who didn't pack the gear to serve in my profession; then we called them "guards", today they're "Police"... it just wrong IMO.
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Xmarine, Do those guys pay into, or draw from the benefits package that the regular cops do? I was kinda curious...
Sounds to me, like a beancounter at city hall figured out that if they can undermine the PD associations or union, they can use the money saved to vote themselves a pay raise.
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Atlanta PD is now in the middle of trying to determine how many and what kind of felony convictions you can have & still be accepted for APD training. I guess recruiting is getting very difficult.
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On the news Dallas was ranked worst for crime in the top 10 biggest cities. ( 1 crime for every 12 people, what ever thats supposed to mean) They also stated Dallas was like 700 officers under staffed from levels approced a few years ago. 700? Maybe there will be some "General Service" cops here before long.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Xmarine, Do those guys pay into, or draw from the benefits package that the regular cops do? I was kinda curious...
Sounds to me, like a beancounter at city hall figured out that if they can undermine the PD associations or union, they can use the money saved to vote themselves a pay raise.
Thats a good question, Cal cops & firefighters pay into "CalPERS", California Public Employees' Retirement System, which also has a credit union.. I'm not sure where these guys fit in.
BTW I say these alternative police are police rejects, and usually have less training, which is true, but.. these hyphenated Depts are also infamous for hiring fully trained guys who have been fired from other Depts. A guy I know failed LAPD field training, 2 weeks later he was hired by a Dept that was called "Safety Police".
A good buddy of mine, former partner, got fired from my Dept for an unfortunate sexual adventure with a young female. 6 weeks later, LA Unified School Police hired him!!! lol, great idea huh?, send a cop who screws young girls to patrol young girls. You guessed it, he didn't last long.. resigning because of rumors. Yeah, right.
He was later hired by the now defunct "RTD Police", or the bus police. The Sheriffs Dept took over the RTD Police Dept. The Sheriffs, being a top tier POST policing agency, had higher standards and ended up hiring very few existing RTD Cops, so he was laid off.
Its like he got dropped from the Big league, and kick around the minors until washing out.
When I was a kid Cops were big league, and Guards were the minors. No need for Park Police, the Sheriffs Dept had a dedicated car to cruise the park, that same Deputy was the school cop too. We saw him at school, and at the park. He knew us, we knew him. There were also Guards doing their guard thing; checking doors, walking around looking for poop to call the Sheriff about.
Today that door checking guard has police powers, a gun, and authority to kill you... but makes a fraction of the salary. Giving formerly unqualified people police powers to rattle doors and check alarms, to me, is insane. The City / County had "security" forces in place for 50+ years that worked out just fine
Nobody seems to care though, they havent noticed that the Govt has slowly turned relatively powerless Civilian Security Guards into real cops that can arrest you.
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
These "cops" make an average of $15 to $20 an Hr, I started at $38hr.
So the starting salary for a PO is over $6000/month? 7.6 times the minimum wage?
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BTW the main difference between a hyphonated Police and the real Police..
A "General Services Police Officer" has police powers while on duty, a real police is a cop 24/7. The difference being the amount of training, the Gen services guy having level I (or II) reserve training, the real troop has a full time police adacemy under his belt.
A CCW for police in Ca can only be issued by a Cheif of Police or Sheriff, Gen. Svs Police has no chief, but an administrator who can't issue CCWs. They are reserve trained cops who work full time and cant carry guns off duty.
One of the best perks of being police is the CCW, can you imagine the frustration these guys go through?, they get to dress up as police, drive a po-lice car, and do po-lice things, then walk away after work as Joe Blow. A daily reminder they are not the real police. On top of that they have no detectives or police resources to solve jack squat, anything important comes up and LAPD takes over. All their arrests & reports go to LAPD / Sheriffs too.
This is a big reason why in the local law enforcement culture we used to laugh at these guys as a joke, back then there only a few of them.. these dudes are everywhere now.
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X, I would hazard to say that this is only the tip of the iceberg, at least in California. It's very likely that, in the future, you will actually see fewer "True" PD officers, only a core to handle investigations, issue the CCW, etc. and all of the field "grunts" will become these GSP's. City Hall Gives not one hoot in hell for what actually goes on in the streets, only what goes on in the accounting office.I can see a day where all you will see patroling are these guys.
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How long can it be?
(http://aliens.humlak.cz/aliens/Aliens_papirove_modely/wip/pics/robocop.jpg)
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Originally posted by mora
So the starting salary for a PO is over $6000/month? 7.6 times the minimum wage?
$38 Hr was what I averaged per Hr based on my end of year W2, I think my base salary was about $3800 Mo back then.
Today they start at $4,260 (check out lasd.org, my dept used to pay based on their wages.. today they make more) Base salary doesnt include benefits, I was unmarried with zero dependants, benefit $$ I did not need went into my paycheck. That alone was a few hundred bucks and boosted me to over $4k a mo.
Married guys with kids made less, or even had to pay, a family of 5 and wife, eh, $3,100 or so.
Court OT, I got 4 hours pay for just showing up, 2 hrs for being "on-call", working mid watch I was on call for something almost every work day. If I spent more than 8 of my day off hours in court, double time kicked in every hr after that.
Military and tactical bonuses; The Feds kicked in 3% for miliraty service, and I was on a tactical team subject to call 24/7 on my off days... sounds cool, wasn't a big deal, but added $175 a Mo to cover maintaining a pager / cell phone. Sniper training boosted my pay grade level to someone who had a BA because I was subject to call from other Depts as well as mine.
I made serious bank, and had just turned 24. Even today a Sheriff Deputy with about my training makes a base salary of $4,749.36, add in a few pay incentives, benefits and OT, $6k a month is easily doable... and that for a grunt, Sgts or supervisors who work OT make even more.
So Cal cops get paid very well, the real ones anyway.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
X, I would hazard to say that this is only the tip of the iceberg, at least in California. It's very likely that, in the future, you will actually see fewer "True" PD officers, only a core to handle investigations, issue the CCW, etc. and all of the field "grunts" will become these GSP's. City Hall Gives not one hoot in hell for what actually goes on in the streets, only what goes on in the accounting office.I can see a day where all you will see patroling are these guys.
Maybe Los Angeles via Cal law is starting a national trend, in LA County we now have:
LAUSD PD - Kid police "freeze kid!, but the bagle back or I'll kill you"
Gen Services PD - building / playground police.. "Step away from the swing set, NOW PUNK!!, wait your turn OR GO TO JAIL!"
LA County "Security Police" - Bus / Subway police.. "I smell coffee, EVERYBODY FREEZE! NOW!!!!".. the biggest jolly these guys get, no joke, is citing people for being in possesion of Starbucks.
Burbank Airport PD - Air head police.. "The white zone is for those with hair gel ONLY!.."
Park Rangers / aka power rangers - Deer police.. "Feeding the deers again?, FREEZE AND STEP AWAY FROM THE APPLE, DO IT NOWWWWWW!!!!!"
SPCALA PD - Doggie style police.. "Your neighbor saw you dicipline youR dog, DONT FING MOVE!!.. DOGGIE 1 TO BASE I HAVE AN ANGRY TOY POODLE, NEED BACK UP now!!!"
The SPCALA guys are animal nazis, gone are the days where the dog catcher was routinely out smarted by the Little Rascals, todays dog catcher carries a Glock .40, 12 guage, and drives a "Police car" with red lights & siren, the best police service $16 an Hr can buy for your pet.
Its scary to me, all these people carrying guns is ok.. I suppose. At least they were screened and trained, and will help out a citizen in need... but a security guard can do that too. These yahoos have arrest powers.
You'll notice the "Illegal alien police" don't exist, neither do the "Gang police".. how about the "White collar police"... I guess cat and kid police are more important.
It just pisses me off is all.
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My last rant, but a perfect example.. what got me started thinking about this before I saw the Swing-set Police car.
I was feeding some left over Hot Dog bun to the birds over at the Metro station, an LA County Security 'Police' chick walks up to me, a real heffer too, so fat.. I doubt she could play with herself without help.
I pay her no mind as I'm feeding the birds when she threatens to cite me for "littering".
I'm a smart ass, "bread is bio-degradable, besides.. the birds are eating the evidence, so you might need to collect their she-it". Apparently bio-degradable was well beyond her vocabulary, and training, however there is a BS muni-code for feeding 'free range animals", strays, birds etc.
I stressed her out by saying "If I'm not under arrest, I'm leaving" and walked away... as I have every right to do as an American.
5 min later I'm surrounded by 4 of em, "stop!!, NOW!!".. before too long there were 2 LAPD and 1 Sheriffs unit there as well.
My poor attitude and foul mouth ended up getting me cited for feeding the birds by the security police, which I plan on taking to trail just for the civics lesson of it all. What offended me the most was the lack of professionalism, She apparently called for back up to 'hurry up', she claimed I was getting away... I called BS and said since I wasn't detained, I was free to go.
That is where judgement and training come to play, she ovbiously had neither.. but did have a gun and authority to cite me.
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Squire, Xmarine can probably tell you the same...But Law enforcement in B.C. and South Central Los Angeles...Aren't comparable. First of all, policeman in California can expect to pay a baseline of $1500-2000 a month rent for a Home. On top of that utilities, Down here have been running me about $250. A vehicle is a necessity down here, call it $500-700 between insurance, payments, etc. Add in the miscalaneous expenses, and It goes higher...
Then there is the work end of it. Home invasions in the Greater L.A. area became so numerous, they quit carrying the stories in the local papers. L.A. is almost segregated by race, with alot of associated tensions. Add in the fact that you have street gangs like M.S.13 that have as many as 10,000 members. Police work in a major U.S. metropolitan city is no place for amatuers. Hell, I live in Bakersfield, which is 100 miles north of the L.A. City limits, We have gang problems up here. Palmdale and Lancaster Are windowed with wrought-Iron. I'm just a construction worker, But I can tell you that A white guy does'nt go down Alameda Ave. alone at night.
Add to it this: The local press would love to hang those cops whenever they get the chance. Xmarine, my hat's off to you, probably some of the worst beats that a man in blue has to walk.
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The trouble is of course, that if you made all the above "real" fully trained and qualified police, then where does the $$$ come from to pay them? In other words, they fill a niche role where its reasonable to have them trained to Reserve status, and the benefit is they dont break the coffers paying them.
Im not sure what the problem is myself, you need Police of some kind to do say, airports, parks and metro buses, they provide basic security, essentially a uniformed presence, and thats really what they are there to do, so, ok.
CCW? why does that matter? policing isnt done by off duty members, thats only in the movies. They go home and eat, and sleep like everybody else does.
Just a Q. What if say, LAPD and LACS expanded their Reserves to do those roles? would it really be any different? Just wondering.
Just a fyi, up here we have the CN Police, which are the railroad cops, and the DFO guys, which are the federal fisheries police, and we have a Transit Police force, and the Border Guards, so we have some of the same sorts of dividing of areas as you do in Calif. Same deal with them, they dont have resources past just uniformed patrol, anything serious (murder, arson, K-9 required, ect), is either dealt with by the RCMP or the city forces.
Do you think California should step in at the state level and legislate higher standards? thats also something they could do, being they are the highest law making body there.
Just a few random thoughts, I do find organizations interesting to look at, and how they are set up.
"Step away from the swing set, NOW PUNK!!, wait your turn OR GO TO JAIL!"
Hehe, ya but you get to be the hero to all them hot single moms out there, with the kiddies in the playground...
EDIT: Was going to ask how much the fine was. Oops, I deleted and sent the post to the bottom, my bad.