Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Jenks on September 22, 2006, 12:10:02 PM
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This has prolly already been discussed somewhere but the few searches I did yielded nothing.
I have been flying the SpitI a lot lately and have found that you can put the craft into an unrecoverable floating upside down "flat spin" although it doesn't "spin" so much as wobble. The nose will never drop and nothing, flaps, gear,aileron, rudder, cussing ,swearing, throwing headsets, pleading or tapping shoes together while chanting "theres no place like home" will help.
I know, before you jump me , its poor piloting skills that get me into that predicament. Just wondering, did the real ones have that problem. I cant seem to duplicate it in any of the other Spits.
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I have experienced this.
Sucks...
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Is it something to do with the engine being gravity fed? Upside down, no fuel, no power = big glider?
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I done it plenty of times, its part of my do a snap roll or 180 turn in midair gone wrong type tricks, with a little effort and plenty of willingness and frustration you'll get out of it
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Yes, i think the "no power under neg Gs" is part of it. Even though i never have encountered that non-recoveralble flatspins in the HMk1. In the Hurri, dropping gear and 20K alt to work with always saved my skin.
As far as my skills go, the SMk1 in those tailslides is unrecoverable. Ive never once managed to get out of one when i was floating down like a leaf.
Only advice I can offer is: dont get into one. Always make sure you have enough speed to keep the Gs when rolling over.
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Originally posted by Jenks
I have been flying the SpitI a lot lately and have found that you can put the craft into an unrecoverable floating upside down "flat spin"
Heh. Jenks learned this secret technique from me. Sometimes the enemy pilot will be laughing so hard that he will forget to watch where he's going, and will augur before you do.
In retrospect, this happens to me in the Spit I when I'm coming inverted over the top of a loop, and I hit the flaps. There's a fleeting moment when one of the wings drops just a bit, and then you're in the scream-all-the-way-down inverted spin. No way out that I've found, either.
- oldman
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Post it in the "bugs" forum.
Never heard or read of it as a problem/characteristic of ANY Spit.
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Thanks for the replies.
:) OM, thats how I got the kill on you the other night wasn't it. You were looping over and came into my sites, I could see you were kinda stalled and I managed to ping you a little before I ran like a little girl from the 2 Hurri's. I got the kill mess. sometime later so you must have floated for a while.
I had come to that conclusion Schatzi, but in the heat of combat it just happens and when it does..........#$%&&^&^%$
Kev, I think I will. I just spent my lunch break reading the web for info and not one mention of this ever. Granted thats not definitive but may be worth asking HTC to look into it. If it is a bug, its been there a long time I'm pretty sure we were still AHI the first time I encountered it, but then my memory is kinda fuzzy that far back.
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yea but ut doesnt only occur when you snap roll or lose all your speed, it often happens when im turning wit someone horizontally, trying to get my guns infront of the guy and finally i get my flaps deployed to help me out an the spit no longer feels like creating lift.........it just falls.
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its the flight model it self this shouldnt happen.
since they remodeled the spit 1 its been a right dog it always feels out of balance it just isnt modeled right
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Jenks try dropping the flaps and using the rudder against the spin. I intenallty stall my Hurricane alot and that is how I get to recover. I have noticed in works in the other Spits as well as the Hurricane Mk 1. Dont know about a Spit Mark 1 but it may be worth a shot.
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Originally posted by Trikky
Is it something to do with the engine being gravity fed? Upside down, no fuel, no power = big glider?
Your forgot something Trikky... it should say this:
Is it something to do with the engine being gravity fed? Upside down, no fuel, no power = upsidedown big glider? :rofl
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Ummm, throttle back? Play with everything, pretty much get the nose down in any possible way? Cut engine, restart engine? Play with every control surface you have? I have experienced a similar problem with late model 109s, and found I must extend flaps, cut engine, retract flaps, nose down, restart engine and I come right out. Anything else just makes me spin faster. But, all those above are just guesses.
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there is actualy a way out of it, you have to set the plane going into an osilation, ie rock front to back in a rythmic motion, and "catch" the miserable ammount of control that gives you, if you stop rocking for even a second it will have to be started all over again... resulting more often than not in the canopy being the first part of the plane to smack the ground.
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Originally posted by stephen
there is actualy a way out of it, you have to set the plane going into an osilation, ie rock front to back in a rythmic motion, and "catch" the miserable ammount of control that gives you, if you stop rocking for even a second it will have to be started all over again... resulting more often than not in the canopy being the first part of the plane to smack the ground.
Um, once you are 'rocking', then what?
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Reynolds thats Neutrino, hes a p51 and spit16 dweeb. But rocking CAN work, ive recovered with about 400 feet of free fall from 700 feet :D
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Um negative, names Popseed, flying outta the rook nation...and once you get er rocking, get the darn nose pointed down , and hold it there lol...:D
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How about trying this...or at least checking my logic ;)
Any try to feather the prop?
Only reason I say this is because when the engine is off, like when the mk1's are fuel starved the prop is in effect driving the engine? So feathering the prop might let you get enough forward momentum to get the craft righted? Just a thought, kind of odd, but it's like getting your max glide from a engine dead plane by feathering your prop and hitting alt x. It sounds wrong but head to the TA and try it, it works like a charm when nursing a wounded bird back to base.
Just a thought anyway ;)
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Originally posted by zorstorer
How about trying this...or at least checking my logic ;)
Any try to feather the prop?
Only reason I say this is because when the engine is off, like when the mk1's are fuel starved the prop is in effect driving the engine? So feathering the prop might let you get enough forward momentum to get the craft righted? Just a thought, kind of odd, but it's like getting your max glide from a engine dead plane by feathering your prop and hitting alt x. It sounds wrong but head to the TA and try it, it works like a charm when nursing a wounded bird back to base.
Just a thought anyway ;)
Interesting idea Mec... will have to try that.
PS: Missed you. LW took over UK because of that.... ;)
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Interesting idea Mec... will have to try that.
PS: Missed you. LW took over UK because of that.... ;)
Blame it on "The Man" ;)
I will be there when it settles out :D
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try nose down and oppisit roll rudder
:)
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Originally posted by spitbrit
try nose down and oppisit roll rudder
:)
Tried that, which is conventional spin recovery. No dice.
Tried raising flaps.
Tried lowering flaps.
Tried full power.
Tried no power.
I do not like it, Sam I Am.
- oldman
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It's the flight model. 110 does the same thing: if you run out of speed at the top of the loop => inverted flat spin. Somehow they forgot that stall inverted is allmost the same thing as stalling upright. Otherwise you would end up flat spinning to the ground in every stall you make.
One other mystical thing about AH FM is the never ending tailslide (202 and 205 are notorious with this), which is also impossible to perform in a real prop AC.
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Yes, i think the "no power under neg Gs" is part of it. Even though i never have encountered that non-recoveralble flatspins in the HMk1. In the Hurri, dropping gear and 20K alt to work with always saved my skin.
I did get into one once with a Hurrin MKI Schatzer. I rode that puppy all the way down from 20K+. Fighting it, cussing it, bribing it, and begging it to stop.
Never thought of dropping the gear.:huh
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Originally posted by Shifty
I did get into one once with a Hurrin MKI Schatzer. I rode that puppy all the way down from 20K+. Fighting it, cussing it, bribing it, and begging it to stop....
No wonder it didnt work...'Taint no way to treat a lady, sir!
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Anything that'll let you fall that far doesn't qualify as a lady.;)
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Originally posted by Shifty
Anything that'll let you fall that far doesn't qualify as a lady.;)
:lol :lol
Seriuosly, though, I have a question. Somebody said that a flat spin and an inverted flat spin should behave exactly the same...but that doesnt make sense to me (a non- engineer0. How could they be exactly the same when the lift vectors are oriented in opposite direction? I know lilft is lost when the spin happens, but as recovery is attempted lift should be partially restored....
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Originally posted by Simaril
:lol :lol
Seriuosly, though, I have a question. Somebody said that a flat spin and an inverted flat spin should behave exactly the same...but that doesnt make sense to me (a non- engineer0. How could they be exactly the same when the lift vectors are oriented in opposite direction? I know lilft is lost when the spin happens, but as recovery is attempted lift should be partially restored....
They're not the same and they don't act the same. There are very different aerodynamics between upright and inverted including the effect of the fuselage, vertical tail, rudder, airflow over external stores or landing gear.
The description Jenks provides is more of a departure than a spin in that he's not in controlled flight yet he has no yaw...hence no spin. It actually sounds like a problem the F/A-18 had where it would hang up in pitch. You couldn't get the nose up or down and the rudders were blocked by the fuselage so you couldn't rudder out of it but I've never heard of a WWII demonstrating it, especially inverted where your vertical tail and rudder are exposed. Sounds like a software issue. Strangely enough the F/A-18 issue was corrected with software.
Mace
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Originally posted by stephen
there is actualy a way out of it, you have to set the plane going into an osilation, ie rock front to back in a rythmic motion, and "catch" the miserable ammount of control that gives you, if you stop rocking for even a second it will have to be started all over again... resulting more often than not in the canopy being the first part of the plane to smack the ground.
So this would be called the "Rhythm Method"? I hear it's not that reliable. :D
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I can get the dreaded Flat spin stall in a spit 5 when i'm pushing it on the edge ... its pritty rare accurance but it does happen
normally if you have enough alt, you dont notice it when it happens as much .
watch your air speed and you'll see what i mean when you've pushed the spit past the edge .
in the spit 1 i can see it happening when the eng is in neg g stall .
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Got exactly this symptom (Spit I flat spin) in the BoB special event on Saturday.
Rode all the way down from 15k to the deep-blue sea with no hope of recovery. Did all the normal tricks (opposite rudder, nose down, engine off etc) but to no avail.
Only difference was I wasn't inverted. First time I've ever not managed to get out of a spin at that sort of alt.
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I've put the spit1 into that spin once and it felt as if no control surface was doing anything to help. I'll have to try the gear idea though.
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gear down, throttle all back, no flaps. works every time for me. :aok