Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: WTC on September 24, 2006, 12:09:29 PM
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Hey guys its me once more, I just need to know which F4U is better; roll, turn performance, speed, etc.
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Roll in all four models are more or less equal. The F4U-1 is superior in flat turns, but not as good in the vertical. The F4U-4 is far and away the best in acceleration, climb and vertical performance. In fact the F4U-4 is probably the best overall prop fighter in the game PERIOD.
I usually fly the 1D. It's also superior to the -1 in acceleration, climb, and vertical performance, and as good as matches the -1 in level turns. The 1C has some SERIOUS punch with those Hispano cannon, but I really feel like she shows the increased weight and mass with her handling.
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I don't fly the F4U-1 or -1D much - I'd rather take up an F6F for those missions where the -1 or -1D would be an alternative. On the F4U-4, I must concur that that thing is a BEAST - lots of acceleration due to the enormous engine power, plenty maneuverable, and carries a big ordnance load to boot.
Is it the #1 Prop Ride in the game? Maybe. I'd like to see a furball of F4U-4s & Tempests going at it, and maybe a few Spit XIVs to see how that would work.
I wouldn't want to take bets though...
EagleDNY
$.02
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The key to learning the Corsair is patience. Each of the four varients found in AH has it's strenghths. The weakness of any Corsair is to let it get slow and low in a furball.
I suggest you spend a good amount of time in the Training Arena flying each Corsair. TequilaChaser and Widewing are well known for their Corsair prowess. Set an appointment with them...you'll learn the Corsair best in this fashion.
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The F4U4 is a BEAST!!!!! It is my tempest killer:D only problem is visuals in it you gotta roll it in ways that can make you vulnerable to see where someone is. Its climb acceleration and speed is just outstanding on top of that for the low speed work you got those flaps and engine power to keep ya in the rame. That rudder too is a big plus. But, it also had limited fuel time on internal fuel which with WEP runs it down even more and it has bent wings.:p
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I've been pretty unimpressed by Spit XIVs. They really lose a lot in the MA environment of the low-alt furball. Tempests really have one clear advantage over the Corsairs, and that's top speed. Get a Tempest in any sort of maneuvering fight and he should be dead.
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1-on-1 the La-7 will best both the Tempest and the F4U-4. In a many-vs-many the Tempest should prove the better, with the F4U-4 as a close second due to their superior performance at altitude.
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Originally posted by Viking
1-on-1 the La-7 will best both the Tempest and the F4U-4. In a many-vs-many the Tempest should prove the better, with the F4U-4 as a close second due to their superior performance at altitude.
I disagree.
Comparing the F4U-4 to the La-7, the Corsair rolls faster, turns tighter, gives up very little in acceleration and climb (climbs much better than La-7 above 8k). Speed differences are minimal on the deck, and quickly shifts to the -4 as you go up. If the fight gets slow, the la-7 gets dead quickly.
I've fought enough duels between these two to catalog their relative abilities.
My regards,
Widewing
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La-7 is overrated. Her only clear advantages are deck speed and firepower. This is why the majority of La pilots rely on the ludicrous speed HO and dive to the deck dweebery, and run the instant they stumble into a pilot who outmaneuvers them, only to come back the moment their opponent breaks off.
Most of my deaths involving La-7s come from:
Large furballs where it's hard to see them blast through the fight at 500mph
Cherry-pickers zipping down at mach speed after I've gotten slow in what STARTED as a 1vs1
When I'm badly out-numbered and trying to egress, but can't run because the La will catch and pick me, and can't stop and fight because I'll get gang-raped by the Spixteen and HOicane dweebs
I don't lose many 1v1 engagements against Las. Most are from dumb-luck high-deflection shots to the cockpit or engine or getting picked after someone ELSE crippled a wing.
Edit: WW beat me to it. :D
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Originally posted by Widewing
Comparing the F4U-4 to the La-7, the Corsair rolls faster
True, but the difference is small.
Originally posted by Widewing
turns tighter
Arguable. With the -4 the turning circles and rates are very similar.
Originally posted by Widewing
gives up very little in acceleration and climb
About 750 fpm from the deck to 5k. 1-on-1 fights always end up on the deck.
Originally posted by Widewing
(climbs much better than La-7 above 8k)
Make that 12k. between SL and 12k the difference in climb rate is no more than +-750 fpm. If 750 fpm is "very little" at SL then 750 fpm is "very little" at 12k too.
Originally posted by Widewing
Speed differences are minimal on the deck, and quickly shifts to the -4 as you go up.
The La-7 speed advantage actually increases with altitude up to 5k where the -4 starts to close the gap (at about 8k). At 5k the La-7 is doing 400+ mph while the -4 is still only doing 380ish. Above 8k the -4 is superior in speed. Again for 1-on-1 deck speed is more important than speed at altitude.
Originally posted by Widewing
If the fight gets slow, the la-7 gets dead quickly.
I disagree. The planes are sufficiently matched in the slow regime to make it a question of pilot skill. Let's just say that the La-7 is not known to be spoiled with an abundance of good pilots in the MA. ;)
But if you put a good pilot in one …
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Thank you all for the advice indeed it will help.
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Originally posted by Viking
True, but the difference is small.
Arguable. With the -4 the turning circles and rates are very similar.
About 750 fpm from the deck to 5k. 1-on-1 fights always end up on the deck.
Make that 12k. between SL and 12k the difference in climb rate is no more than +-750 fpm. If 750 fpm is "very little" at SL then 750 fpm is "very little" at 12k too.
The La-7 speed advantage actually increases with altitude up to 5k where the -4 starts to close the gap (at about 8k). At 5k the La-7 is doing 400+ mph while the -4 is still only doing 380ish. Above 8k the -4 is superior in speed. Again for 1-on-1 deck speed is more important than speed at altitude.
I disagree. The planes are sufficiently matched in the slow regime to make it a question of pilot skill. Let's just say that the La-7 is not known to be spoiled with an abundance of good pilots in the MA. ;)
But if you put a good pilot in one …
No question, the F4U-4 has a better roll rate and a more effective rudder. Speed and acceleration differences are close enough to be meaningless, unless you are running from the F4U. Even then, bullets will catch up quick enough if you're in range.
In a dogfight, sustained climb is far less important than people give it credit for. Zoom climb is a much greater factor. For example, take a 109K-4 and an A-20G. Both are doing 300 mph on the deck, with the A-20 600 yards behind the 109. Take the 109 vertical with the A-20 following. What happens? Well, the A-20 closes on the 109 and stays there for far longer than anyone would imagine. Vertical dogfighting is all about E management and E retention/momentum. Steady rate climb is generally a non factor once it becomes a maneuver fight. There is no measurable difference between the La-7 and F4U-4 in a Co-E zoom climb, at any altitude.
A five mph speed differential is as equally unimportant as steady state climb. Not enough difference by itself.
As to turning ability, these fighters are not as similar as you think. Within the plane set, the La-7 ranks 31st among the fighters. The F4U-4 ranks 16th. This difference is equal to that between the Hurricane I and the Spit I... Spitfire Mk.I had better not try to out-turn the Hurricane... It's not huge, but it is significant.
There's no question that a top tier pilot in an La-7 will beat an average pilot in the F4U-4. Heck, you don't need an La-7 to do that, any mid to late war fighter would be adequate. I would guess that 90% of the MA players have never flown a 1v1 duel against anyone. At low speed, the La-7 is far less stable than the F4U (any F4U) and cannot be pushed to the edge of its envelope without far more drama. In a 1v1 scrum, I'd take the 109G-2 over the La-7. Indeed, the G-2 is a close match for the Spit16. However, neither of these fighters can expect to beat the F4U-4, given equal pilots.
I suppose that I've dueled with or fought some of the best La-7 drivers in the game. The best I've seen is airsys (AKA 2Bighorn, Phish, airvent, Baitbug, etc). We have dueled in just about every combination of fighters possible. Several months ago we dueled with the 109G-2 vs the La-7. It was close, but the G-2 was simply better in the vertical and better when the fight became a "stall fight". The difference was very small, but the G-2 held the edge. Last night I dueled with SASKID. He had a Spit16, I had a G-2... This I would classify as dead even. SASKID had been flying Spit16 duels with Sonic23 prior, and Sonic is very, very good. For the record, SASKID needed a few sorties to find the Spit16's limits and after that was very much an even match for Sonic.
I guess what I'm trying to establish here is that I make a point of dueling with as many of the top sticks as will drop by the TA. When you get two guys of equal ability, the better fighter prevails. My experience under those rules is that the F4U-4 will win, regardless of which pilot flies it. We also know that the La-7 will usually beat the Tempest (again, given equal pilots). Within that context, the F4U-4 simply owns the Tempest after a Co-E merge.
I stand by my initial remarks. Of course, I'm always ready to have someone prove me wrong.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Speed and acceleration differences are close enough to be meaningless, unless you are running from the F4U. Even then, bullets will catch up quick enough if you're in range.
I beg to differ …
Originally posted by Widewing
A five mph speed differential is as equally unimportant as steady state climb. Not enough difference by itself.
… And the speed difference is more than 5 mph. It's 8 mph on the deck and +-20 mph at 2k to 6k. I find both the La-7s speed and acceleration advantages to be a lot more than meaningless.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1022_1159284867_speedwep.jpg)(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1022_1159284859_maxspeedlowalt.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1022_1159284839_acceleration.jpg)(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1022_1159284876_topendaccelerationlowalt.jpg)
Originally posted by Widewing
In a dogfight, sustained climb is far less important than people give it credit for. Zoom climb is a much greater factor. For example, take a 109K-4 and an A-20G. Both are doing 300 mph on the deck, with the A-20 600 yards behind the 109. Take the 109 vertical with the A-20 following. What happens? Well, the A-20 closes on the 109 and stays there for far longer than anyone would imagine
This is because the A-20 is cutting the corner on the 109, pulling less G (bleeding less E) and closing in the horizontal as well. Fly a 109K and an A-20 in a line abreast formation and then test their zoom-climbs. Both pulling the same G into the vertical. The 109 will handily out-climb the A-20.
Originally posted by Widewing
Steady rate climb is generally a non factor once it becomes a maneuver fight
I have seen enough spiral-climbing 109s to know that is not the case.
Originally posted by Widewing
As to turning ability, these fighters are not as similar as you think. Within the plane set, the La-7 ranks 31st among the fighters. The F4U-4 ranks 16th. This difference is equal to that between the Hurricane I and the Spit I... Spitfire Mk.I had better not try to out-turn the Hurricane... It's not huge, but it is significant.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1022_1159284883_turnradius.jpg)(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1022_1159284895_turnradiusspithurri.jpg)
You will notice that a mere 25 feet separates the turn radiuses of the La-7 and F4U-4 using flaps. Without flaps the La-7 surprisingly out-turns the F4U-4 by a significant margin.
The difference in turn radius between the Spit I and Hurri I is indeed very similar to the La-7 and F4U-4, but only in feet. You'll notice that a difference of 23-25 feet is much more significant for the Spit and Hurri comparison since they have much smaller turning-circles in general.
Originally posted by Widewing
At low speed, the La-7 is far less stable than the F4U (any F4U) and cannot be pushed to the edge of its envelope without far more drama. In a 1v1 scrum, I'd take the 109G-2 over the La-7.
I find that the La-7 is extremely stable at low speeds with flaps. Very similar to the 109 in that regard.
Originally posted by Widewing
I suppose that I've dueled with or fought some of the best La-7 drivers in the game. The best I've seen is airsys (AKA 2Bighorn, Phish, airvent, Baitbug, etc). We have dueled in just about every combination of fighters possible. Several months ago we dueled with the 109G-2 vs the La-7. It was close, but the G-2 was simply better in the vertical and better when the fight became a "stall fight". The difference was very small, but the G-2 held the edge. Last night I dueled with SASKID. He had a Spit16, I had a G-2... This I would classify as dead even. SASKID had been flying Spit16 duels with Sonic23 prior, and Sonic is very, very good. For the record, SASKID needed a few sorties to find the Spit16's limits and after that was very much an even match for Sonic.
I guess what I'm trying to establish here is that I make a point of dueling with as many of the top sticks as will drop by the TA. When you get two guys of equal ability, the better fighter prevails. My experience under those rules is that the F4U-4 will win, regardless of which pilot flies it. We also know that the La-7 will usually beat the Tempest (again, given equal pilots). Within that context, the F4U-4 simply owns the Tempest after a Co-E merge.
I stand by my initial remarks. Of course, I'm always ready to have someone prove me wrong.
My regards,
Widewing
Again, I beg to differ, your dueling experience notwithstanding. I find the La-7 and F4U-4 sufficiently matched to make pilot-skill and luck the deciding factor. I do however agree that overall the F4U-4 is a much better plane than the La-7 due to its performance at altitude, range and armament options. Little of that matters in the game-world of the MA though.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1022_1157675034_viking-la7.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1022_1157675057_viking-la7-kills.jpg)
My humble regards :)
Viking
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Originally posted by SAS_KID
But, it also had limited fuel time on internal fuel which with WEP runs it down even more and it has bent wings.:p
WEP makes the fuel last LONGER. The F4U-4 uses water injection which increases gas mileage, same as the P47N
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I am rusty as hell in the hog right now but I will agree more with WW here.
The thing that will save your life in the hog is its ability to roll quickly, quicker than alot of ppl give credit for most the time. It also will turn better than a spitty thinks on the first couple of turns. Best hope there is if he finds you slow drop 2 notches of flaps and use your roll rate to gain some distance on him. If you are good with E you can hang her on the prop with about any plane depending of course on E states.
If I am going out to fight and think it is a low/slow furball I take the -1. Feels better in the turn and accels pretty good. Anything at alt or if I just feel like a BnZ fight I take the -1D. Roll is still great and it turns just abit worse than the -1. C-hog IMO is for bustin ack. It ranks up there as one of my fav ground and pound attackers. I don't like the RoF of the hispano for dogfighting but for busting things on the ground it rocks. -4 is just a dream ride. She flies nice, great roll rate and the accel rocks. All the planes make use of "combat flaps" by dropping 2 notches of flap when slower, and the gear are re-enforced for use as dive brakes which can save your life when 1v1 and slow on the deck.
You put a hog in the hands of a good pilot and anything in front of him/her dies.
I do get nervous against La-7, spit XIV, p51(usually scares me the most), newer 109s, some 190 pilots. (right now nervous every flight tho.. still too damn rusty).
S!
Rocket
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There's really only three planes I HATE coming across in a Hog regardless of situation:
Spit XVI, Ki-84, Hurri 2C
The Spixteen as modelled is capable of just plain ridiculous stunts. Last night I was being chased by a pair and nosed over into a full-power dive under WEP, with a slight left turn followed by as hard a pull out to the left as I could manage without blacking out. My airspeed CLEARED 600mph and he was matching me maneuver for maneuver. Bull effin' watermelon any Spit could maneuver at that speed without ripping his wings off. The even MORE ridiculous thing is that I started at 400yds out, and by the time I levelled out I only opened to 600 so his speed HAD to have been above 500-550mph. Fortunately, Spixteens USUALLY fall apart with only a couple hits (except if you shoot him in the engine. For some reason I just can't understand, the Merlin on a Spit can take about a hundred rounds without even smoking, but one ping will blow out the Corsair's R-2800). This in itself is frustrating because if I shear his wing off with 10 rds of .50 call, and some guy with .303s lands about 200 in his fuselage without causing any appreciable damage, more often than not I only get an assist. :p
There's nothing particularly suspect about the Ki-84's modelling that I'm aware of (although like above, I've never seen the Ki's handling aversely affected when travelling at Ludicrous Speed, whereas historically the Frank's controls started turning to mush as speeds started to exceed 350-375mph). They WERE just that good. F4U-1/C/D can't run or climb out on the Frank (although I HAVE held them at bay with a hard spiral climb to the left), and even with flaps out the Hog is hard-pressed in a turning fight. Usually the Franks I kill are either target-fixated or otherwise don't see me coming.
I hate, HATE, HATE Hurri 2Cs. They can turn a full plane or even a dead-six shot into a HO within only a couple hundred yards at ANY airspeed (anyone who claims otherwise is full of it. I've seen and had it done to me almost EVERY time I've run into one). They can practically INSTANTANEOUSLY restore E, and they have GOT to either have some sort of collision detection bug, cloaking device, or spatial jamming field because I have lost track of how many times a 2C has flown DIRECTLY through my bullet stream without so much as taking a ping. The only thing they CAN'T do are go fast, and climb. In fact, I think they're worse about forcing overshoots than Il-2s. There has to be some overmodelling here, because these things multiply the ludicrocity of the Spixteen by a factor of ten.
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Originally posted by Viking
I beg to differ …
… And the speed difference is more than 5 mph. It's 8 mph on the deck and +-20 mph at 2k to 6k. I find both the La-7s speed and acceleration advantages to be a lot more than meaningless.
This is because the A-20 is cutting the corner on the 109, pulling less G (bleeding less E) and closing in the horizontal as well. Fly a 109K and an A-20 in a line abreast formation and then test their zoom-climbs. Both pulling the same G into the vertical. The 109 will handily out-climb the A-20.
I have seen enough spiral-climbing 109s to know that is not the case.
You will notice that a mere 25 feet separates the turn radiuses of the La-7 and F4U-4 using flaps. Without flaps the La-7 surprisingly out-turns the F4U-4 by a significant margin.
The difference in turn radius between the Spit I and Hurri I is indeed very similar to the La-7 and F4U-4, but only in feet. You'll notice that a difference of 23-25 feet is much more significant for the Spit and Hurri comparison since they have much smaller turning-circles in general.
Again, if you fight these two planes straight up, head to head Co-alt, the La-7 will find itself at a disadvantage right off the merge as a good F4U pilot will reverse his Hog mighty quick... Insanely quick. I agree that the La-7 turns better when the F4U-4 does not use flaps. But, that's like saying that a Honda Civic will out-corner a Formula One car if you remove the wheels from the F1 car. A Hog WILL be using flaps. Flying a DHog against Urchin's Spit16, the Hog won every merge and could hold that advantage long enough to get guns on.
Naturally, each pilot is comfortable in his ride, so I expect disagreements.
As to the A-20 vs 109K-4 in a zoom climb... We've tested this recently, including side-by-side tests and you may be surprised at the data (but not if you recognize that the A-20 has substantially greater kinetic energy at the beginning).
Beginning at 50 feet ASL, both aircraft are allowed to accelerate at max power. Watching E6B, at precisely 300 mph TAS, each aircraft is pulled into a pure vertical climb. This was performed 5 times on each, with the best result from each appearing below.
Measured data:
Time to 2,000 feet ASL
Time to 3,000 feet ASL
Speed (TAS) at 3,000 feet ASL
Results:
Bf 109K-4 to 2,000 feet: 8.44 seconds
A-20G to 2,000 feet: 7.24 seconds
Bf 109K-4 to 3,000 feet: 13.57 seconds
A-20G to 3,000 feet: 13.21 seconds.
Bf 109K-4, speed at 3,000 feet: 106 mph
A-20G, speed at 3,000 feet: 101 mph
So, what does this establish? When tested side by side, the A-20G quickly surges ahead and is about 70-80 yards ahead at 2,000 feet. At 3,000 feet the gap is closing, but the A-20 is still about 60-70 yards in front.
No need to cut the corner, but doing so only exacerbate's the other guy's problem.
The moral of the story is, no matter what you are flying, going vertical against a Co-E Havoc will gain you nothing over the first 15 seconds, and if you are flying a light-weight fighter, the difference is even greater. Fifteen seconds is a long time to have six nose mounted fifties behind you and closing.
Now, in a straight climb at best climb angle and speed, the 109K-4 simply runs away. Nonetheless, in a close-range dogfight, straight climb performance is not as significant as zoom climb. Just remember this; Kinetic Energy = ˝ x mass x velocity˛. Co-E, the heavier aircraft has more stored energy. However, it cannot maintain that advantage for long because gravity quickly overcomes the momentum. Yet, it gives you a substantial window of time to get a killing shot in.
I've received some 200 channel rants, such as: "BS!!!!!, a freakin A-20 can't outclimb a Ki-84!!!" But yeah, it can outclimb a Ki-84 for long enough to kill it.
Now, bring that bad old La-7 to the TA some weekday evening and we'll play tag. :aok
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by ded
WEP makes the fuel last LONGER. The F4U-4 uses water injection which increases gas mileage, same as the P47N
show me how that works:rofl wide open throttle is just that, wide open throttlewater injection adds horsepower. over and abouve that.if you backed off throttle and could engage water injection to give same power then you could save gas but that is not why they had it (wep)stands for war emergency power. and that is what it is used for .
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Originally posted by jon
show me how that works:rofl wide open throttle is just that, wide open throttlewater injection adds horsepower. over and abouve that.if you backed off throttle and could engage water injection to give same power then you could save gas but that is not why they had it (wep)stands for war emergency power. and that is what it is used for .
Ded is correct. Have a look at the Specific Engine flight Chart for the F4U/FG-1 series below. Note that when WEP is used with water injection, the fuel flow rate drops. This is due to water being part of the total volume being flowed into the carb. HTC modeled this, but only for the F4U-4 and P-47N
(http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/F4U/F4USEC.GIF)
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Now, bring that bad old La-7 to the TA some weekday evening and we'll play tag. :aok
My regards,
Widewing
I'd love to (even if I'm going to get my butt kicked). :)
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Originally posted by jon
show me how that works:rofl wide open throttle is just that, wide open throttlewater injection adds horsepower. over and abouve that.if you backed off throttle and could engage water injection to give same power then you could save gas but that is not why they had it (wep)stands for war emergency power. and that is what it is used for .
You are forgetting mixture. At military-power the F4U-4 runs at a very rich mixture to cool the cylinder heads and the charge mixture. At WEP the water injection does the same job so the engine can be run at a leaner mixture. Water injection does NOT add horsepower. It cools the charge mixture allowing for more fuel to be injected without detonation problems. More fuel adds horsepower.
So … at WEP the engine does indeed burn more fuel, but at MIL power even more fuel is evaporated simply as a coolant (much like the water at WEP).
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Originally posted by jon
show me how that works:rofl wide open throttle is just that, wide open throttlewater injection adds horsepower. over and abouve that.if you backed off throttle and could engage water injection to give same power then you could save gas but that is not why they had it (wep)stands for war emergency power. and that is what it is used for .
I know I've already been backed up twice on this, but go ahead and take an f4u-4 or p47-n up, open the e6b and turn wep on. Note the fuel burn and time remaining.
;)
Water injection increases compression and instead of the engine burning 100% fuel, it's burning 95% fuel and 5% water. This both increases gas mileagle and makes the power output greater. This can also be used on a modern day car to give you much better gas mileage. There are kits outthere you can retrofit with even.
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Originally posted by Viking
You will notice that a mere 25 feet separates the turn radiuses of the La-7 and F4U-4 using flaps. Without flaps the La-7 surprisingly out-turns the F4U-4 by a significant margin.
Keep in mind that's a chart of sustained turn rate without flaps and is useful only as companion chart of that with full flaps. It should just give you an idea of how effective flaps are on particular ride.
At typical merge speeds of f4u-4 and la7, you're limited to max G ie blackout. Even so, seems that f4u-4 has better instantaneous turn and more often than not it'll gain slight angle right of the merge. If not, it can drop its flaps earlier (at higher speed) than la7, gaining even more. And when the fight slows down to stall speeds, f4u-4 controls still have plenty of authority, where la7 sometimes refuses to follow the input.
La7 has slight advantage in pure E fight at low altitude only, if you stick with it from the begining of the fight and even then, those 50 cals have long reach...
All in all, when pilots are of equal skills, I completely agree with Widewing, f4u-4 should win more often then not.
As for the the charts comparison...
If you compare la7 and spit XVI, they are very comparable, but in practice between the two, difference is far greater and spit XVI wins clearly over la7.
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Instantaneous turn in the F4U is just ludicrous, especially when you factor in flaps.
Case in point, was chasing a Spit 8 through a turn, one notch of flaps and losing ground. I dropped another notch and that almost instantly hauled the nose around to a shooting position.
Sometimes, though, I think the Corsair's flaps work a little TOO well...
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yea, i've been outturned in my Spit8 by TA57 in his 4-hog... so , like a noob, i switched to what defeated me... i tried out the A-hog and 4-Hog.. using flaps, rudder, etc. and my butt kept getting kicked. Should i be patient and train with this plane or go back to my Spit8 and train with that further?
Which do you think is better overall (factoring out armament, fuel settings, etc. only comparing things like performance, and more specifically, roll and rudder authority at different speeds etc, etc.)
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The thing with the F4U is that it's NOT a plane that will win you instant gratification the first time you jump in. You want that, fly a Spixteen. It DOES take practice to get the hang of the F4U, but she's a DAMN good ride once you do.
As for which is best, it depends. The F4U-4 far and away is the overall best of the Hogs. While she doesn't turn as well as the early models, her acceleration, climb and top speed are all more than enough. I'd say as a pure dogfighter the F4U-1A is a close second. You've basically got the speed and horizontal turning of the -1 combined with better acceleration, rate of climb and vertical performance of the 1D.
Honestly, while the 1D and 4 carry have same ordinance options, I'd say the 1D is the superior wrecking ball. She's slower than the 1, 1A and 4, but she has heavier loadout than the other early-model Hogs without the perk price of the 4 (the perk cost on the 4 is awful steep to risk on a ground attack run). The 1C would be my second choice. Even though she loses two pair of rockets over the 1D, the cannon are good tools for bringing down town buildings and general base suppresision.
Aileron and rudder authority don't really vary that drastically between the models. The -1 feels somewhat heavier to me than the 1D, though other people disagree and swear by the -1. The 1C DEFINITELY feels the added weight of the Hispanos. The 1A probably feels the lightest and most responsive of the non-perked models. But again, there's not a drastic difference between them.
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Originally posted by Rocket
I do get nervous against La-7, spit XIV, p51(usually scares me the most), newer 109s, some 190 pilots. (right now nervous every flight tho.. still too damn rusty).
S!
Rocket
Please,two p51 against one la7 do not stand a chance(dog fight) unless la7 is a noob,Kozhedub proved it:)
And i dont even remeber when last time a was shot down in la 7 by 190.
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Originally posted by KgB
Please,two p51 against one la7 do not stand a chance(dog fight) unless la7 is a noob,Kozhedub proved it:)
And i dont even remeber when last time a was shot down in la 7 by 190.
Tell ya what, meet me in the TA. We'll take off from the 20K fields, you in an La-7, I'll take a Mustang. We'll see if it can handle one P-51 at the altitude the airplane was engineered to fight at. Standard dueling rules.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Tell ya what, meet me in the TA. We'll take off from the 20K fields, you in an La-7, I'll take a Mustang.
My regards,
Widewing
You will never see la7 at 20k,well you shouldnt:)When p51 entered service most german aces were killed, p51 never faced a real enemy,unlike Brits or Russians.Most dog fights took place under 9k in ww2,and they were on eastern front.And obout DA,sure any time.
We'll see how i can handle one P-51 in an la7 at the altitude the airplane(la7) was engineered to fight at. Standard dueling rules.
My regards as well sir.
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Ooooh. It's going to be an execution!
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Originally posted by Viking
"You are forgetting mixture. At military-power the F4U-4 runs at a very rich mixture to cool the cylinder heads and the charge mixture. At WEP the water injection does the same job so the engine can be run at a leaner mixture. Water injection does NOT add horsepower. It cools the charge mixture allowing for more fuel to be injected without detonation problems. More fuel adds horsepower."
Yes it does and i should not have said (gas), but water injection i belive was alcohol water injection.which is more fuel and used storage area on the aircraft.alky makes hp but it uses about 2 times the volume as gasoline. even if it used less gasoline the volume of"FUEL"which included water and alky was not less.and if i"m wrong im sure i will hear about it
:)
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Originally posted by Saxman
Ooooh. It's going to be an execution!
Oh yeah.
p51 were ment to escort bombers and as you know latest 109's are fast but they fly like bricks,much like late 190's.
I never run from p51,even two of them but f4u's are always pain in the butt.
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I think you misinterpreted me. I meant that WIDEWING was going to be the executioner.
An La-7 has no business being above 15,000ft. She was built for the lower-altitude war of the Eastern Front while the P-51 was DESIGNED for high-altitude operation.
Someone really needs to film this. And post it. :D
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Originally posted by Saxman
I think you misinterpreted me. I meant that WIDEWING was going to be the executioner.
An La-7 has no business being above 15,000ft. She was built for the lower-altitude war of the Eastern Front while the P-51 was DESIGNED for high-altitude operation.
Someone really needs to film this. And post it. :D
At 20k yes he will rape me,below 5-8k the opposite,
but how often do you see dog fight taking place above 5k anyway?
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Originally posted by Saxman
An La-7 has no business being above 15,000ft. She was built for the lower-altitude war of the Eastern Front while the P-51 was DESIGNED for high-altitude operation.
I believe you are mistaken. The La-7's engine has a full throttle height of 20,000 feet. While I do agree that the La-7 is outmatched by the P-51 above 15k, the La was nevertheless designed to operate up to 20k, much like its German rivals.
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I think any contest between a Tempest and an F4U-4 would greatly depend on pilot skill, and circumstance, certainly there is no reason that a well flown Temp couldnt down an F4U-4. But alas, thats the nature of such things.
My money would be on the LA-7 vs a P-51D below 20k, again, all things being equal.
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lol i think the forum name should be changed to Corsairs & Vehicles
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Originally posted by Saxman
The thing with the F4U is that it's NOT a plane that will win you instant gratification the first time you jump in. You want that, fly a Spixteen. It DOES take practice to get the hang of the F4U, but she's a DAMN good ride once you do.
So would it be better instead to trade in my red and blue roundels for that big, white on blue star?
I realize that's it true that it takes a hang to get into the Hog and to fly it efficiently, but i cant seem to use that famed turning everyone's been talking about. But i guess it's because I still personally have to get better. Well, I'll be trying that out - but still...
do you think the Spit8 is anywhere near equal,lesser or better than any given Hog assuming pilots are of equal skill?
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Yeah, it takes some practice to take advantage of the Corsair's turning ability. A LOT of it is timing and knowing when to drop a notch of flaps. Also, cutting throttle, kicking out the gear and dumping flaps will give you some serious cornering ability.
Be advised, though, that this works for 1v1 situations, but I personally advise keeping the F4U fast in larger melees.
As for the Spit VIII I seem to find them easier kills in a Hog than any Spit except maybe the Seafire, I and XIV. They really don't seem to turn as well as the V, IX and XVI, and certainly lack the XVI's ludicrous rate of roll.
I'd look up Widewing, DanoDano and many of the AKs as they're among the best active Corsair drivers.
BTW, if the Hog is your cup of tea and you're ever looking for a squad, just look up my crew. We're always looking for pilots
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Roger that, Sax. I've always loved the F4U.... in fact, the D-Hog was my first ride ever. Unfortunatley, I'm now condemned to live in the 8 player arena as i have no ability to pay for the Online arenas. My job doesn't pay enough and, of course, I'n not even 18 yet.
Anywho, if you pros ever thinking of terrorizing the 8player arenas, I'd like to learn how to fly the Hog. My friends believes I'm not turning well because i drop TOO many flaps, causing me to slow down so badly, my elevators barely get any authority.
Plus, I need to learn to AIM. EVERYONE who has ever beaten me has mentioned that I'd be a much tougher opponent if I could aim. I often set my conv. at 350 (inboard pair) 325 (mid-pair) and 300 outboard pair. Sounds wonky, but i smell so bad in this game, it serves me a little better than one straight conv. setting. It's a good thing my SA isn't as bad as my shooting...
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There's not really any advantage to converging in a zone. It won't make you any more accurate, and especially with the .50 cal lessens the hitting power. I set my guns to converge at 300yds, and usually wait to shoot until even closer (max firing range is when the counter reaches 400yds). Gunnery just takes practice.
The issues with the Corsair at low speeds is not so much elevator authority. Under full flaps the F4U has a TIGHTER turning radius than even the Spixteen. Where she suffers is turn rate (the F4U will turn TIGHTER than many aircraft under full flaps, but DOES turn slower). This means that if you don't get a shot within a couple turns many aircraft will have now circled in behind you (so yeah, this is where aim REALLY makes a difference. For me, getting the kill as fast as possible is priority). However the F4U's ability to dump speed and put the Wonder Flaps (tm) into play so quickly will often give you the only shot opportunity you should need. The problem is if you miss.
Also, the F4U's roll rate begins to get a little mushy near stall speed as airflow over the wings slows. This can be GREATLY assisted with rudder, which remains responsive and VERY effective at almost any airspeed. Just be careful, because too much rudder and elevator simultaneously will lead to a spin. This is the other place where flying the F4U slow REALLY takes a careful touch, because she WILL depart, and VIOLENTLY, if you horse around on the stick too much at low speeds.
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Originally posted by Widewing
I disagree.
Comparing the F4U-4 to the La-7, the Corsair rolls faster, turns tighter, gives up very little in acceleration and climb (climbs much better than La-7 above 8k). Speed differences are minimal on the deck, and quickly shifts to the -4 as you go up. If the fight gets slow, the la-7 gets dead quickly.
I've fought enough duels between these two to catalog their relative abilities.
My regards,
Widewing
But I'll go further and state that in a 1 on 1 with a co-e start any flavor of F4U is more then a match for a lala at any alt. Obviously pilot quality is a big comonent. A well handled la-7 is quite capable....but the hog has significant options. On the deck the lala can pretty easily take the high ground and thereby control the fight....however the hogs roll & turn rate combined with its low speed stability make it a pretty lethal counter puncher. As starting alt climbs the hogs performance gets stronger and the fight becomes more and more even....
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Originally posted by humble
I'm nowhere near WW's league....
Don't underestimate yourself or overestimate me... :)
I fly a gozillion low speed fights... Do something often enough and you begin to figure it out. There's lots of guys better than I am.
My regards,
Widewing
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Ah..ok... i get it Sax. So basically it's not that the Hog os turning lke crap, but that its moving so slowly, it can't complete its turn...
Ok, well, from now on it's strategy for me.
Thanks again for the help. If anyone (Widewing especially, lol) has info on the A-Hog, preferably in the form of charts, I'd like to see them.
Also, any strategies that work generally against higher-alt cons, I'd like to know. The thing is that I usually am able to defend against the UBER high cons, but if theyre similar alt, but slightly higher, all i can do is run, and then wait to turn for an HO.
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Current F4u-1D vs F4u-1A
(http://www.my2cents.co.nz/AcesHigh/hog.gif)
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Originally posted by Spatula
Current F4u-1D vs F4u-1A[/IMG]
I just tried to download your comparison application and I get a server error?
Badboy
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Oh dear, will check on it.
Ok, seems my hosting company has changed some global settings - great. I will hopefully have it sorted in a day or so.
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Ok, its fixed now. Bare in mind also the version of the comparison app which is online at the moment, does not have the F4u-1A in it just yet - it should do in a couple of days.
For now, you will need add unzip these files into your C:\Program Files\AKUAG\AHII Aircraft Performance\airData directory
http://www.my2cents.co.nz/AcesHigh/dataupdate.zip
That should do it. Also note there is still no turn data for the new corsair yet.
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I have rebuilt the setup app to now include all the latest data.
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Spatula,
I tried to download you utility but the webpage will not accept any text entry in the date field.
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which utility? The PilotStats one?
You have managed to download it right?
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Spatula,
The one on aircraft performance.
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But there is no date field?? You mean the email address field? Try it again, i tweaked a div tag.
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Originally posted by Spatula
I have rebuilt the setup app to now include all the latest data.
Thanks, just downloaded it, installed and working.
Badboy