Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Kev367th on September 24, 2006, 03:05:03 PM
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Hope this doesn't constitute a duplicate thread of any kind, if so, apologies.
Anyway onto the gist -
Going to use two countries as it makes things easier - the "Pink Tutus" (PTT) v the "Sheepskin Thongs" (SST)
Each side has 100 players, but one side is comprised of vets the other newbs (extreme I know, but the best way of showing what I'm getting at)
So
PTT - vets
SST - newbs
Thats fair and balanced? Obviously not.
You would have to give the newbs a 3x or higher advantage in numbers to stand a reasonable chance.
How does this apply to AH?
How do you tell what each country is comprised of in the way of vets/newbs?
So the next obvious move is to assign each player a skill tag. (based on who knows what, maybe number of ferrets you can get down your trousers?)
You are limited not only by country numbers, but by your skill level also.
Hopefully you all see the point I am trying to make -
Equal numbers does not mean "fair and balanced", but is more an illusion of it.
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Kev...
I don't remember HT ever talking about "fair". When asked about balance, he will tell you that he is more interested in LONG TERM imbalance than in balance.
BTW, got 3 ferrets in before the ecstasy became too much. :D
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You're overlooking an important factor -- random distributions.
Unless there's a confounding factor that skews experienced players to one side, when you get above a few hundred enrolees there shouldnt be any meaningful difference between the countries' members - in quality, in personality, in years played, or even in eye color. That's what "random distribution" MEANS, and that's the basis for all the population based scientific studies you hear about on CNN or whatever.
That being so, let me ask you a question:
What's a more effective approximation of "equal sides" -- 40:10:10, or 20:20:20?
Neither will be completely even, due to their randomness, but which one is the BETTER GOAL?
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Hope this doesn't constitute a duplicate thread of any kind, if so, apologies.
Anyway onto the gist -
Going to use two countries as it makes things easier - the "Pink Tutus" (PTT) v the "Sheepskin Thongs" (SST)
Each side has 100 players, but one side is comprised of vets the other newbs (extreme I know, but the best way of showing what I'm getting at)
So
PTT - vets
SST - newbs
Thats fair and balanced? Obviously not.
You would have to give the newbs a 3x or higher advantage in numbers to stand a reasonable chance.
How does this apply to AH?
How do you tell what each country is comprised of in the way of vets/newbs?
So the next obvious move is to assign each player a skill tag. (based on who knows what, maybe number of ferrets you can get down your trousers?)
You are limited not only by country numbers, but by your skill level also.
Hopefully you all see the point I am trying to make -
Equal numbers does not mean "fair and balanced", but is more an illusion of it.
Boy ... you are really reaching here.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
So the next obvious move is to assign each player a skill tag. (based on who knows what, maybe number of ferrets you can get down your trousers?)
If this is used SuperDud will be the best guy in the arena. :)
Although...Super doesnt wear trousers he wears pantaloons.
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Pantaloons he stole from MC Hammer's house, I might add.
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Super is 2 legit 2 quit!
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He's dope on the floor and magic on the mic.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Hopefully you all see the point I am trying to make -
Equal numbers does not mean "fair and balanced", but is more an illusion of it.
But it's closer than 75 noobs vs. 15 vets. You will not have person to person, skill level to skill level parity so the best you can hope for in numerical parity.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Boy ... you are really reaching here.
Only one just to plain dismiss/slam it without any expalnation comes from a BK, why am I NOT SUPRPISED.
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how big will the ferrets be? and will there be a standard trouser/pantaloon sizes? also, what if you accidently lose your ferret?
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Originally posted by Kev367th
So the next obvious move is to assign each player a skill tag. (based on who knows what, maybe number of ferrets you can get down your trousers?)
You are limited not only by country numbers, but by your skill level also.
I...er...I kind of like this idea....
Doubt it could be easily or accurately implemented, and I'm pretty sure it would set up a howling that makes the recent arena changes look like Christmas caroling, but certainly other sports handicap their players.
- oldman (who knows, no matter how you figure it, that he would be part of the newbie horde)
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Kev youve hit it right on the head and this is why I asked for some sort of rank modifier to the ENY. Ninja like silence is the only response to that one and I expect this thread will fall into the sewer as more of the IN group respond.
Typical as they say.
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The balance issue is exascerbated by the small size arenas, split 3 ways. There is more likely to be an imbalace when only 14-19 on a side at a time.Any suggestion is welcome, including this one. Hard to implement, especially in a game with a rolling side composition, but ENY updates continuously, so this could as well.
-MI-
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Raw numbers mean nothing. It's the relative skill level of each side that matters. Everybody knows it takes 10 bish to equal 1 rook. When the numbers are equal the rooks steamroll the map.:p :D
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Okay Kev, I'll humor you. How do you decide who's at what skill level? Obviously rank is right out the window, since stats are easily manipulated. What does that leave?
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apparently he is making a point... I thought he was proposing a new arena solution...
*puts away the ferrets and short-shorts*
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Only one just to plain dismiss/slam it without any expalnation comes from a BK, why am I NOT SUPRPISED.
It wasn't a dismissal or a slam ... but I am NOT SURPRISED at your reaction either ... after your congenial input in my thread.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Okay Kev, I'll humor you. How do you decide who's at what skill level? Obviously rank is right out the window, since stats are easily manipulated. What does that leave?
Wasn't suggesting it should be implemented.
Was just an example of why this whole "fair and balanced" idea, while laudible, is completely unrealistic/unattainable.
Although I think the ferrets idea is as good as any.
One country lets say A always gets the newbs, so if country A outnumbers country B by 30 players and a squad of 15 moves to balance the numbers, it actually unbalances it skill wise.
No easy answer, in fact don't think there is one.
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I could only afford one ferret... and it BIT ME!!! :cry
I think this is a great idea! Rank sorta works, but... well... you also got a point about how hard it would be...
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I wub u guyz!!!!!
As for the idea I don't think it'll work. How do u measure skill? My skwaud likes to fight but not win the war. I'm sure there are many sqauds that r better than us at winning the war. BKs have some pretty skilled fiter guys but they are happier killing each other than assisting in base capture. So although they may have more "skill", the noob willing to auger bomb the base is more valuable in the capture aspect.
Also, I for one don't normally bother to attack bombers, I'm out to kill fiters. So if I see a group of B17s barreling in and just kinda shrug while the 2 week noob in the 110 dives in, in that instance he's more of an asset even though I could take a TBM and him a zeke and out turn him. It would be hard to make some guide lines for it.
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well what would happen, if using score as measure of skill, is you would just be splitting up the dweebs in the MA.....on second thought maybe it's not such a bad idea after all. imagine the whines from squads again.....i *have* to fly for a different country, and against my squad because my score is to good. i.e, i milkrunned a few factories, vulched, and launched rockets at a town from a pt boat.
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So let me paraprase this argument by kev.
Because balance can not be PERFACTLY acheved we should not even try , even thow things are MORE balanced by trying.
Give me a break kev, do you even realy belive this yourself, or are you just reaching at straws to come up with any argument you can against the ENY.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
So let me paraprase this argument by kev.
Because balance can not be PERFACTLY acheved we should not even try , even thow things are MORE balanced by trying.
Give me a break kev, do you even realy belive this yourself, or are you just reaching at straws to come up with any argument you can against the ENY.
HiTech
I think its just a Freudian expression of his deep love for SHEEP in Pink tutu's and thongs.
Balsy
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score & skill are two very different things! so how do u measure skill? how do u seporate the vulchers from truely skilled pilots? there are players that arent much better & know little more after months or years of playing!
for a period the knits were always out numbered & it seemed all the vetren squads decided to go on rotation (abandon) the low numbered side.
i think its up to the vetren squads to look for the challenge af flying the low numbered sides, help the game improve as far as equal sides/skill !
its only takes 1 hour now before one can switch back to origional country so i really dont see the harm in flying for country A,B or C if the numbers require it !!!!!!
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Originally posted by hitech
So let me paraprase this argument by kev.
Because balance can not be PERFACTLY acheved we should not even try , even thow things are MORE balanced by trying.
Give me a break kev, do you even realy belive this yourself, or are you just reaching at straws to come up with any argument you can against the ENY.
HiTech
Things as they stand at the moment are NOT more balanced, in fact they are WORSE than ever.
You've tried various things, nothing has worked up to now, this isn't either, all it has done is to magnify the problem.
I don't think I even mentioned ENY, it has nothing to do with ENY, I have no idea where you got that from.
Original post was supposed to show how difficult, if not impossible it is to achieve what your trying, as you can't base it on pure numbers alone.
Nothing was meant as a suggestion for what to implement, was just a discussion on the fantasy that is "fair and balanced" .
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It's all about your opinion. If you re against the change then everything is unbalanced and aweful. If you like it, then things are fine and balanced. Just because I like the new set up doesn't mean I'm right. Just because you don't like it, means you are right. It's just your opinion.
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Originally posted by Dastrdly
for a period the knits were always out numbered & it seemed all the veteren squads decided to go on rotation (abandon) the low numbered side.
i think its up to the vetren squads to look for the challenge af flying the low numbered sides, help the game improve as far as equal sides/skill !
AK's use to rotate every month. We stopped because we starting getting bad vibes within the squad because it was getting so bad with the lack of communication, kill stealing, etc... with other countries. Rooks in my eyes seem to be the better of the 3.
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As stated previously..... measuring skill and implementing any type of balancing by said skill measurement will be just as flawed as any other method. If not more so.
I for one always try to balance the dar bar's out. I care not which chess piece I fly for and will switch at the drop of a hat. I would like to say that I do this for the community good, however I really do it because I want to have ALOT of red planes to shoot at. I would much rather get rolled by the hoard than be part of the hoard.
I really like the new arena set up. I have been spanding most of my time in Mid War.
If ENY is a problem....... Just switch countrys. I really dont comprehend the all the fuss.
Dave
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Kev:
You are limited not only by country numbers, but by your skill level also.
Hopefully you all see the point I am trying to make -
Equal numbers does not mean "fair and balanced", but is more an illusion of it.
When you refer to county limits, you are not refering to our current ENY system?
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Originally posted by hitech
Kev:
When you refer to county limits, you are not refering to our current ENY system?
In the context of post ENY has nothing to do with it.
How anyone would assume I am having a go at the ENY system from my original post is beyond me.
100v100 = NO ENY
My point was skill levels, 100 newbs v 100 vets (at the extreme), even numbers yes, balanced, HARDLY.
No one else even mentioned ENY either (until you did), they seen it for what it was, a 'skill levels' problem.
Little 'touchy' about ENY?
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Little 'touchy' about ENY?
Possibly.
But beside the eny, I still stand by my parphrase of your argument.
You are trying say
lack of perfection implies not better than before.
Unless your argement is "fair and balance" means when 2 teams play they should always end up in tie.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
Possibly.
But beside the eny, I still stand by my parphrase of your argument.
You are trying say
lack of perfection implies not better than before.
Unless your argement is "fair and balance" means when 2 teams play they should always end up in tie.
HiTech
lack of perfection implies not better than before. -
Depends whcih side of the fence your on -
For a furballer, no doubt it's better.
But up to now I can't see better, maybe I'm missing something somewhere.
Constant posts of -
More unbalanced
Wild swings in numbers
More milkrunning
Hoards still alive and kicking
Thats better?
Unless your argement is "fair and balance" means when 2 teams play they should always end up in tie.-
No, it means by definition each side has an equal chance of winning.
If they are equal on skill, then the difference is through strategy.
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lack of perfection implies not better than before. -
Depends whcih side of the fence your on -
For a furballer, no doubt it's better.
But up to now I can't see better, maybe I'm missing something somewhere.
Constant posts of -
More unbalanced
Wild swings in numbers
More milkrunning
Hoards still alive and kicking
Thats better?
What exatly are we talking about, You said your post was about a generic concept. So exatly how are people complaining about skill levels in the game?
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
What exatly are we talking about, You said your post was about a generic concept. So exatly how are people complaining about skill levels in the game?
HiTech
I never said they were complaining.
It was a example to debunk the much strived for "fairness and balance" concept, (which although admirable is unattainable), based on the obvious flaw, skill levels.
You brought up specifics i.e.
1) ENY - Which in an even numbered player environment doesn't happen anyway. (my whole point was even numbers, uneven skills).
2) The idea of "better than before".
Subjective depending on which side of the fence your on.
From my point of view -
EW - Furballers made that their sandbox, no other style of play is wanted OR welcomed. Any attempt to do anything but furball is met with derision on CH200 and whining posts on the BB the next day.
Which leaves the majority of your customer base scrambling over the MW / LW arenas.
Guess we'll have to disagree, I don't see that as better.
But looking forward to any tweaks you hopefully will be doing.
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Originally posted by hitech
What exatly are we talking about, You said your post was about a generic concept. So exatly how are people complaining about skill levels in the game?
HiTech
HT ... people aren't complaining about skill levels.
I believe that he is saying that your attempt(s) to "balance" fairly DOES NOT take into consideration "skill level".
To achieve TRUE "balance", you must add "skill level" to the "balance" decision tree.
Most realize that your metrics for determining "skill level" are somewhat flawed and trying to make that part of the "balancing" decision would be futile at best.
In theory ... he is correct ... practicallity-wise ... well, I'll leave that up to you.
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i for one can't really follow this argument. it's about furballers, or as you imply the minority of the community. it's about skill, or numbers? like sim said, not all vets will fly for the the same country...the fact is they are spread out. another fact is that in the former MA, the country with overwhelming numbers won the reset....not the other way around. that might lead someone to believe that overwhelming numbers is more of a factor than skill. how long can you live in a 10 v. 1. heck even a 3 v 1 you should be dead if any they have the silghtest idea what they are doing.
so kev, if you don't like this set up, share with us how to improve the community, make the game competitive again, keep vets, and increase new pilot interest in the game. i bet even 2 weekers get tired of competing for kills in a hoarde with more experienced players. you can't say "change it back the way it was." some form of change was needed. the community lost many because of gameplay related things. the community as a whole could not fix itself, so we are here today. the community possibly attracted elements to it that maybe HTC didn't want, and maybe others were shying away from the game because of it. sure maybe it works for a bit longer, but looking down the road there may be little future.
just my opinion, which i'm sure you don't agree with. people don't want change, even though down the road it will pay off, they want only what is right before their eyes. i believe the change was aimed affecting the most areas of gameplay as possible, not just one. i haven't seen anyone claiming EW as furball only, i've seen quite a few bases changes hands there. i think your argument about "fair and balance" is flawed, because realistically not all vets will fly for a country. will some countries have more skilled pilots, maybe. but then don't they deserve to be better/win if that is the case? the idea is to give people a fighting chance. like in football, some teams are better than others, but it's not because the have 25 extra people.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
HT ... people aren't complaining about skill levels.
I believe that he is saying that your attempt(s) to "balance" fairly DOES NOT take into consideration "skill level".
To achieve TRUE "balance", you must add "skill level" to the "balance" decision tree.
Most realize that your metrics for determining "skill level" are somewhat flawed and trying to make that part of the "balancing" decision would be futile at best.
In theory ... he is correct ... practicallity-wise ... well, I'll leave that up to you.
Spot on.
OMG just realised, we actually see something from the same point of view.
Was only ever meant to be theory as you correctly stated, just highlighting the flaw in 'balancing' numbers alone.
Geez just hope I haven't started any wheels turning ;) .
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SlapShot:
I believe that he is saying that your attempt(s) to "balance" fairly DOES NOT take into consideration "skill level".
I do not disagree, the problem I have is the conclusion from the basic argument.
Equal numbers does not mean "fair and balanced", but is more an illusion of it.
I would state the conclusion as follows
Equal numbers does not mean " Perfectly fair and balanced", but equal numbers are more fair and balanced than unequal numbers.
and hence my parphrase.
Because balance can not be PERFACTLY acheved we should not even try , even thow things are MORE balanced by trying.
Baicly I think Kev's orignal argument is flawed.
But he tries to use an invalid argument to suport his case
2) The idea of "better than before".
Subjective depending on which side of the fence your on.
Has absoulty nothing to do with his argement.
Because that statment is basicly the question, do you belive a more balanced arena is better or worse.
In which case I agree, it is a subjective opion and we can disagree, but the validity of his orignal argement is not a subjective thing. It either is or isnt valid.
HiTech
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Was only ever meant to be theory as you correctly stated, just highlighting the flaw in 'balancing' numbers alone.
Well. Heck.
I kind of liked the idea....
- oldman
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Lets get a few things out of the way -
You said -
"even thow things are MORE balanced by trying"
And the balance is where? Certainly not in arena country numbers, in fact it's worse.
You said -
"lack of perfection implies not better than before. "
"Better than before" depends on a subjective opinion by each individual person. Some would agree, some would disagree.
I didn't introduce these into the original premise, you did.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Spot on.
OMG just realised, we actually see something from the same point of view.
Was only ever meant to be theory as you correctly stated, just highlighting the flaw in 'balancing' numbers alone.
Geez just hope I haven't started any wheels turning ;) .
Kev ... I understood what you meant from the get-go ... that is why I said your "reaching" ... because you know, as well as I do, that "skill level" really can not be entered into the equation.
HT ... I whole-heartly agree ... an attempt or any attempt(s) to "balance" will always be better than not trying at all.
Perfect "balance" may never be achieveable ... but the closer you get to perfection ... the better it will be.
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Kev I am totaly clue less on what you are trying to say.
Do you wish more balance , Im assuming balance meens country numbers equal , if you think it meens somthing else please describe what your defenition of balance is.
If you do not wish more balance, please describe why.
If you wish more balance, and think somthing is causing an inbalnance please describe what you think is causing it.
And to help me, please refrain from words like better, because balance is better and balance is worse can mean different things.
1. It can mean things are More balanced.
2. It can also meen More balance is a good thing.
HiTech
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Originally posted by pluck
i for one can't really follow this argument. it's about furballers, or as you imply the minority of the community. it's about skill, or numbers? like sim said, not all vets will fly for the the same country...the fact is they are spread out. another fact is that in the former MA, the country with overwhelming numbers won the reset....not the other way around. that might lead someone to believe that overwhelming numbers is more of a factor than skill. how long can you live in a 10 v. 1. heck even a 3 v 1 you should be dead if any they have the silghtest idea what they are doing.
My limited trips to the new Latewar arena seem to speak to this. Still flying a 38G against the late war rides, but surviving a lot longer, which might suggest that many of the better sticks have gone to other arenas and this makes my average at best skills look better against the 1 trick HO and GO guys.
It makes me think that that safety in the horde stuff was a great disguise for lack of 'flying' ability.
I also had a strange experience in Midwar one night when there were 4 of us on Knits, 19 on Bish and 24 on Rooks.
I upped to go defend a base that was essentially being milkrunned and came across a Rook 110G trying to sneak in to pork the field I was upping from. When I rolled in on him, it was like he had no idea what to do. He just did small banking turns left and right as I slowly closed on him. He didn't have help close so it wasn't as if he was setting me up for a pick by s buddy. I closed to 200 and blew him apart. Last I checked a decent stick in a 110G can put up a fairly decent fight, but I felt like the Allied pilots at the end of WW2 shooting down the guy with 10 hours in the air and no clue what to do.
Anyone that can make me look like I know what I'm doing, is really hurting :)
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Each side has 100 players, but one side is comprised of vets the other newbs (extreme I know, but the best way of showing what I'm getting at)
So
PTT - vets
SST - newbs
Thats fair and balanced? Obviously not.
You would have to give the newbs a 3x or higher advantage in numbers to stand a reasonable chance.
How does this apply to AH?
How do you tell what each country is comprised of in the way of vets/newbs?
So the next obvious move is to assign each player a skill tag. (based on who knows what, maybe number of ferrets you can get down your trousers?)
You are limited not only by country numbers, but by your skill level also.
Hopefully you all see the point I am trying to make -
Equal numbers does not mean "fair and balanced", but is more an illusion of it.
Actually the example is really flawed.
1.) all 3 countries are more or less equal in skill level, the assumption that all newbies are on one country and all vets on the other is not holdable if you dont have any hard proove. IF it would be the case, some vets quickly would change to the other side to get more intresting fights and some newbies quickly change to find some easy target... maybe one country is better, but i doubt that is by much.
2.) not true either. most times in ah the countrys have unequal numbers. BUT the vets tend to be more numerous (not exclusive, but higher percentage) on the country with the LOWER numbers. Why? Because you have more targets, better fight and bigger challenge. This tends to equal out the situation, since there are not two countries at equal numbers and one high skill other low skill. Instead you have one country with lower numbers but slightly higher skill and other country with higher numbers and slightly lower skill. This looks rather balnaced to me.
on top of that, reality shows that a lot of AH2 players have either affinity to their chess piece (like me :)) or are bound to a squad which forces em to hop countries less. Some try to win the war, which is easier with the numbers. When you get online in a 2:1.5:1 situation it gets quite clear that 2 times the pilots means a LOT. Now i never saw any influence of skill there.... higher numbers = the guys taking the bases.
So, to be honest MY conclusion is that skill level does not need to be considerd, giving a bonus for equalizing the numbers is enough. Which form of bonus works best might be difficult to say and might need a new adjustment with the new arena design, but doesnt seem to be your question.
ciao schutt
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Originally posted by hitech
So let me paraprase this argument by kev.
Because balance can not be PERFACTLY acheved we should not even try , even thow things are MORE balanced by trying.
I have to agree, this is the single impression I've gotten from all of Kev's posts. The entire premise for his argument is not based on any sort of fact or observation, just a desire to find something wrong with the system.
FWIW, in the LW last night, I saw approximately even numbers the entire time I was on. At one point, briefly, I think someone was up by 10 or 12 players, but didn't notice anything overwhelming. While people will always try to find imbalance and increase or exploit it, that fact is one of the problems, IMO, not an excuse to give up trying.
BTW, kev, nice attitude last night. Not too many people could lose a fight in an il2 and take it so gracefully as you did.
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vets should be perked :p
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I have to agree, this is the single impression I've gotten from all of Kev's posts. The entire premise for his argument is not based on any sort of fact or observation, just a desire to find something wrong with the system.
FWIW, in the LW last night, I saw approximately even numbers the entire time I was on. At one point, briefly, I think someone was up by 10 or 12 players, but didn't notice anything overwhelming. While people will always try to find imbalance and increase or exploit it, that fact is one of the problems, IMO, not an excuse to give up trying.
BTW, kev, nice attitude last night. Not too many people could lose a fight in an il2 and take it so gracefully as you did.
Lol it was so sad, even to the point of one trying to ho me.
Whole premise is based on fact, to have balance, eveything has to be equal, and quite clearly it can't be done (see next post)
You couldn't have been on for long in the LW, the numbers usually swing a lot between all three countries, and did the short time I was in there before going to the MW when Bish ENY hit 15 or so.
A lot depends on what time your in there I guess, it varies a hell of a lot throughout the day.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Hope this doesn't constitute a duplicate thread of any kind, if so, apologies.
Anyway onto the gist -
Going to use two countries as it makes things easier - the "Pink Tutus" (PTT) v the "Sheepskin Thongs" (SST)
Each side has 100 players, but one side is comprised of vets the other newbs (extreme I know, but the best way of showing what I'm getting at)
So
PTT - vets
SST - newbs
Thats fair and balanced? Obviously not.
You would have to give the newbs a 3x or higher advantage in numbers to stand a reasonable chance.
How does this apply to AH?
How do you tell what each country is comprised of in the way of vets/newbs?
So the next obvious move is to assign each player a skill tag. (based on who knows what, maybe number of ferrets you can get down your trousers?)
You are limited not only by country numbers, but by your skill level also.
Hopefully you all see the point I am trying to make -
Equal numbers does not mean "fair and balanced", but is more an illusion of it.
Kev, I am with you on this one. We should use a pilots score for that. And before anyone says scores are meaningless, think again. All the score hos that destroy this game will be effected by it.
Try to imagine SHawk and co trying to vulch pick and run in P40s because their score is too high.
I say DO IT HT!!!!!, lol
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Originally posted by Schutt
Actually the example is really flawed.
1.) all 3 countries are more or less equal in skill level, the assumption that all newbies are on one country and all vets on the other is not holdable if you dont have any hard proove. IF it would be the case, some vets quickly would change to the other side to get more intresting fights and some newbies quickly change to find some easy target... maybe one country is better, but i doubt that is by much.
2.) not true either. most times in ah the countrys have unequal numbers. BUT the vets tend to be more numerous (not exclusive, but higher percentage) on the country with the LOWER numbers. Why? Because you have more targets, better fight and bigger challenge. This tends to equal out the situation, since there are not two countries at equal numbers and one high skill other low skill. Instead you have one country with lower numbers but slightly higher skill and other country with higher numbers and slightly lower skill. This looks rather balnaced to me.
on top of that, reality shows that a lot of AH2 players have either affinity to their chess piece (like me :)) or are bound to a squad which forces em to hop countries less. Some try to win the war, which is easier with the numbers. When you get online in a 2:1.5:1 situation it gets quite clear that 2 times the pilots means a LOT. Now i never saw any influence of skill there.... higher numbers = the guys taking the bases.
So, to be honest MY conclusion is that skill level does not need to be considerd, giving a bonus for equalizing the numbers is enough. Which form of bonus works best might be difficult to say and might need a new adjustment with the new arena design, but doesnt seem to be your question.
ciao schutt
1) Bish have more than their fair share of newbs, I still think we get them automatically.
2) No figures, proof or stats to back ANY of that up, pure speculation.
Agree with people having loyalty to their country, that will never change.
Never asked for skill level to be accounted for, was pointing out a basic flaw in the equal numbers theory.
Maybe I should bold it so I don't have to repeat it over and over and over and over again (think I will).
HT -
What I think is contributing to the imbalance as you asked (IMO).
1) Human nature - People prefer high numbered arenas over low numbered ones, LW proves that.
2) Loyalty to ones country - Aint gonna change, like it or not.
3) Caps - Squads who can't get into the LW arena will all go to one of the other arenas. Thats why the MW was pretty full last night. NOT by choice, but by neccessity.
Country numbers swung wildly in the MW arena last night as complete squads hopped in and out.
Probably more.
Your main problem/complaints seem to lie with the LW arena, fix that they will all but dissappear.
[edit] Yup one more -
4) Some people prefer to fly a specific plane that may only be available in certain arenas.
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1) Human nature - People prefer high numbered arenas over low numbered ones, LW proves that.
One could argue that the LW has higher numbers, because too many are afraid to explore what is offered in the other arenas due to the fact that they can't ride in their "safe-mobiles" or as some say ... "crutches" ... La-7, N1K, P-51, etc.
I don't think that its they prefer higher number arenas, all arenas have the same CAP ... so how could LW be higher than the other two ?
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Could also say look at-
#4 - Some people have a favorite plane they like to fly that is only available in the LW.
Too say they are afraid is just way outta line and not called for.
If you spent as much time persuading them instead of denigrating them at every opportunity, you might get further.
Each to his own.
I like the Tiffy, flown it in both the MW (perked) and LW (free).
Guess I'm afraid to go to EW, or is it it's just not available in the EW?
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Perk all fighter cannon planes. Evently when people run out of perks from ho'ing on a 50/50 chance of winning, they won't be able to up there cannon plane to ho everyone in sight.
Since the change my flying time has gone down considerable ammount. I went from about 80+hrs to maybe 50 so far this month. Now keep in mind the first week the change wasn't in effect till later. I think I had 15-20 hrs in before the change for this tour. Like someone stated before, the strategy war is no longer. Its either furball heaven or milk runners. The game doesn't appeal to me anymore like it use to. It has turned into a kids game that has no concept of flying or doing basic manevs to get on someones 6.
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Originally posted by MwDogg
Perk all fighter cannon planes. Evently when people run out of perks from ho'ing on a 50/50 chance of winning, they won't be able to up there cannon plane to ho everyone in sight.
Since the change my flying time has gone down considerable ammount. I went from about 80+hrs to maybe 50 so far this month. Now keep in mind the first week the change wasn't in effect till later. I think I had 15-20 hrs in before the change for this tour. Like someone stated before, the strategy war is no longer. Its either furball heaven or milk runners. The game doesn't appeal to me anymore like it use to. It has turned into a kids game that has no concept of flying or doing basic manevs to get on someones 6.
Geez, meybe we should exchange glasses. I'm seeing exactly the opposite. The 'strategy war' now requires something more tactical than just hording up and overwhelming a base. I have seen more new guys working on how to get someone's 6. More cases of folks asking for 1v1's...and getting them. All the while, the "war" still goes on...bases fall, score monkeys get points and those that care get perks.
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More ferrets!!
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Thanks for the chat HT.
Did have an idea -
Would it be possible on the map changes to start each arena at a different part of the sequence so the maps aren't the same throughout?
Also for the new arenas to spawn with a different map to the first?
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Could also say look at-
#4 - Some people have a favorite plane they like to fly that is only available in the LW.
Too say they are afraid is just way outta line and not called for.
If you spent as much time persuading them instead of denigrating them at every opportunity, you might get further.
Each to his own.
I like the Tiffy, flown it in both the MW (perked) and LW (free).
Guess I'm afraid to go to EW, or is it it's just not available in the EW?
Come on Kev ... where did I say they were afraid ? ... I used the word "safe" ... alot different than afraid.
Stop playing dumb for the sake of argument ... you know what I am talking about and so do most.
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Slapshot Ill give you a nice example. I like to fly the P51D and so does my whole squad. I train them in furballing with it escorting with it bombing in it and attacking bombers with it. Not all of them fly it all the time and some of them dont like it much either but when we fly as a squad we fly the P51D mostly. A dozen times over the past week or two a mission has been tried but the eny changes before we can even launch. My favorite ride is hard to get into see? Even when it is the squad isnt always online so I go with six or more bishops to attack a field. In less then a minute and usually much much quicker all the bishops are dead except me and now Im outnumbered ten to one. That doesnt bother me though because I can usually land six or more kills anyway. What bothers me is that the same guys that die within a minute of meeting the enemy are keeping the P51 out of the skies because they far outnumber the guys that can survive. So I log in and find the arena full or the P51 not available and then I log off and go fly F4AF.
Ive asked online and there are quite a few that would pay double for a adult only arena. More filling less gamey and much much more skill is what we all want. AND the P51D.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
1) Human nature - People prefer high numbered arenas over low numbered ones, LW proves that.
One could argue that the LW has higher numbers, because too many are afraid to explore what is offered in the other arenas due to the fact that they can't ride in their "safe-mobiles" or as some say ... "crutches" ... La-7, N1K, P-51, etc.
I don't think that its they prefer higher number arenas, all arenas have the same CAP ... so how could LW be higher than the other two ?
Check italics - Enough said.
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Originally posted by Chalenge
Ive asked online and there are quite a few that would pay double for a adult only arena. More filling less gamey and much much more skill is what we all want. AND the P51D.
...um....
Here's something that might be fun to trywith your squad:
Outfit them all with one of the mid-war planes. Maybe start out with Spit 5s, the younger squad members will find that is a good transition plane. See how that works out. Pick the blue skins for all of you. Now you're folks are ready for either the mid-war or the early-war arenas, they'll all get kills (believe me), you can stick together. The world is bright again.
AND, there's no additional charge!
- oldman
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No thanks.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Check italics - Enough said.
"because too many are afraid to explore"
UGH ... check out the bold ... nuff said.
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Originally posted by Chalenge
Slapshot Ill give you a nice example. I like to fly the P51D and so does my whole squad. I train them in furballing with it escorting with it bombing in it and attacking bombers with it. Not all of them fly it all the time and some of them dont like it much either but when we fly as a squad we fly the P51D mostly. A dozen times over the past week or two a mission has been tried but the eny changes before we can even launch. My favorite ride is hard to get into see? Even when it is the squad isnt always online so I go with six or more bishops to attack a field. In less then a minute and usually much much quicker all the bishops are dead except me and now Im outnumbered ten to one. That doesnt bother me though because I can usually land six or more kills anyway. What bothers me is that the same guys that die within a minute of meeting the enemy are keeping the P51 out of the skies because they far outnumber the guys that can survive. So I log in and find the arena full or the P51 not available and then I log off and go fly F4AF.
Ive asked online and there are quite a few that would pay double for a adult only arena. More filling less gamey and much much more skill is what we all want. AND the P51D.
Originally posted by Oldman731
...um....
Here's something that might be fun to trywith your squad:
Outfit them all with one of the mid-war planes. Maybe start out with Spit 5s, the younger squad members will find that is a good transition plane. See how that works out. Pick the blue skins for all of you. Now you're folks are ready for either the mid-war or the early-war arenas, they'll all get kills (believe me), you can stick together. The world is bright again.
AND, there's no additional charge!
- oldman
Originally posted by Chalenge
No thanks.
Speaks volumes Chalenge ... rather than try to adapt, as Oldman suggested, you just deliver a flat out ... NO.
You have a choice ... you make your choice ... you live with the consequences ... can't feel sorry for you at all.
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Oldman, one of these days will have to get together and meet. I live in Hellertown, PA. I use to travel to lansdale to cruise the strip 15 yrs ago,lol. And pottstown.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
1) Human nature - People prefer high numbered arenas over low numbered ones, LW proves that.
One could argue that the LW has higher numbers, because too many are afraid to explore what is offered in the other arenas due to the fact that they can't ride in their "safe-mobiles" or as some say ... "crutches" ... La-7, N1K, P-51, etc.
I don't think that its they prefer higher number arenas, all arenas have the same CAP ... so how could LW be higher than the other two ?
I think its possible a large chunk of the players fall into that realm. Once that block of players settles in to the LW, other players who want to go where the majority are (like me) just add to it making it a full arena.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Pantaloons he stole from MC Hammer's house, I might add.
Did those go out of style? :furious
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Originally posted by 68ZooM
Did those go out of style? :furious
Well, no, of course not, assuming it's still 1991 where you're living. ;)
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Originally posted by BugsBunny
Kev, I am with you on this one. We should use a pilots score for that. And before anyone says scores are meaningless, think again. All the score hos that destroy this game will be effected by it.
Try to imagine SHawk and co trying to vulch pick and run in P40s because their score is too high.
I say DO IT HT!!!!!, lol
LOL...perk a score potato....Some top scoring pilots are very good, but most in the top 100 are average. They get the good score by doing a little bit of everything the game has to offer. Most score potatos don't get there by simply vulching all night.
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FoxNews is fair and balanced...they said so themselves...wait...thought this was the O'Club...nevermind...continue...just don't soil those ferrets!