Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Guppy35 on September 27, 2006, 08:42:29 PM
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and in all seriousness I'm asking this.
What is the fun in rolling up undefended fields and 'winning the reset"?
I went into midwar tonite and see the beta 2 map is up. Numbers are their typical self the last week or so. Bish 38, Rooks 21 and Knits 10.
Undefended bases are dropping like flies.
Boom. The "war is won" and the map is going to change.
I got exactly one flight in on that map in there.
Why do people want to fight no one?
And I really want to know the appeal of it. I don't want to start a word war. I understand people want different things from the game, but I really don't get the point.
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Aww come on its only been a month;)
Give it time they say. The numbers will even out:rolleyes:
I feel your pain Gup
Fungi
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I think it has something to due with working together as a team to accomplish a goal of capturing territory and winning map. One never knows when an ack may pop up and ruin your destruction of perfectly good buildings, so its good to have a few team mates around to protect you.:noid
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Why do people want to fight no one?
My friend, it is the structure of war.
- oldman
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Originally posted by Guppy35
and in all seriousness I'm asking this.
What is the fun in rolling up undefended fields and 'winning the reset"?
It's not unlike the old saying, "Why does a dog lick his **lls?"
A: Because he can. :aok
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even though this new formst gives some of the furballers their fun, it alos gives the toolshedders undefended fields.if you want the old da back ask for it .then the toolshedderes whont ruin your fun.
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Originally posted by fungi987
Aww come on its only been a month;)
Give it time they say. The numbers will even out:rolleyes:
I feel your pain Gup
Fungi
There's a certain irony in you saying that about numbers evening out.
I checked the roster when I got in to see who was flying and noted that on the high numbers Bish, there were 10+ BoPs.
Had they chosen to go to the low numbers side when they saw the numbers imbalance it would have been even sides all around.
They didn't.
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Originally posted by jon
even though this new formst gives some of the furballers their fun, it alos gives the toolshedders undefended fields.if you want the old da back ask for it .then the toolshedderes whont ruin your fun.
And your comment speaks loudly to the problem.
Seperate the players even more. How do we get both to fly in the same area? I'm certain the air to air guys would be more then happy to fly against the air to building guys. The problem is the air to building guys don't seem to want to go anywhere near the air to air guys.
Instead you suggest the air to air guys should go to the DA.
How do we put the different types of players together jon?
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That, Dan, is a hook. Hooks should not be taken internally.
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I'd love to hear some sort of respone to the question @ hand. Not surprisingly I tend to find myself in agreement w/ Dan in regards to how we have our fun in AH. That being said as much as I dislike it when the furball I'm in gets taken out w/ the FH/fuel/ etc. I can understand and appreciate that we all get our kicks out of AH in different ways and their has to be an arena to accomodate, as much as possible, everyone.
But that being said.. the field capture as a target, as a goal can lead to some outstanding fights. For a few minutes all the different goals of the game come together. The strat minded/win the war types are after the field and progress on the map, and the air to air/furball types are having fun trying to stop them. Everyone wins, in this little idealic scenario.
What I can't seem to wrap my head around is the desire to mass as many people against as few as people as possible and just steam roll on through, rinse, repeat. If I wanted to do that I could get 7 friends and join a H2H server and have fun shooting ack all night long and save myself $180 a year.
The same idea can be applied to dogfights.... what are the fights that you remember? the one where you BnZ'd a F4F4 in a 190D for half an hour. Or the time you ran into someone of equal skill in the same plane? Sure you might lose... but planes are free and no one really dies as a wise friend of mine likes to point out.
I'll sign off now after suddenly realizing that I've managed to write another chapter... but this game is what we make it. And it strikes me that if we conduct ourselves in a way that allows all types to enjoy the game. We all come out ahead.
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Deleted
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LOL, pic ^
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I can hear the turbines spooling up on HT's delete button already.
Fire in the hole!
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
That, Dan, is a hook. Hooks should not be taken internally.
I concur
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No one has answered my question yet
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Originally posted by Guppy35
They didn't.
They won't.... My solution would be that when ENY restriction gets to 10, all ground targets double in hardness (for all countries). At an ENY restriction of 20, hardness doubles again. Limited to flying nearly useless aircraft would be exacerbated by needing 12,000 lbs to kill a hanger or 1,000 lbs to kill one building in a town.
This would not limit capturing bases if the numbers were reasonably even, but it would make base captures all but impossible when the numbers were like I saw them in the MW arena at 8 PM eastern tonight: Bish 31 Knit 4 Rook 22. Certainly, the horde would have to return and rearm, even if they had decent aircraft to begin with.
This might result in some side switching to even out the numbers. If not, let them toil in futility.....
My regards,
Widewing
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gee dan...if you really want to dogfight why dont you come to the da?
thats where i have spent the last few nights becuz........its the only way to get an even fight with simialr planes and similar alt.
the truth i suspect is that you want recognition or score so instead of seeking what you say you want...even fights...you expect it from a dynamic and imbalanced playing field that supports more sides of the game then you "feel" like flying (i.e. base defense...gv'ing...strat)
but instead feel free to point your finger at 10 bops who are having fun flying crappy eny planes and not whining on 200 about it. yes...to make YOUR experience more fun we will divide into smaller groups and fly 3 to a country and private text each other back and forth (yes im being facetious but can you understand how ludicrous this sounds?) also check back into an arena 30 minutes later and numbers have swung other direction. with so few players in lw and ew this happens quite a bit.
I dont know what has happened to nit numbers..every arena is severely imbalanced at times...and the eny can be unfair (earlier today inflight numbers Bish 15...Rooks 13.....knits 8 AND Bish ENY was 29...rooks 13....nits 0)
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Originally posted by Guppy35
and in all seriousness I'm asking this.
What is the fun in rolling up undefended fields and 'winning the reset"?
in answer to this question i am honestly answering you:
For me it is boredom....the new/old beta map has fields too far apart...vbases are nice but airfields in certain sections are a long flight apart for slow EW planes.
today was my day off..usually i would play a bunch of AH....logged on this a.m and ew/mw were barren..20ish in each....for nothing better to do i hopped in a gv...noone there to fight...killed one m3...noone ever came back. sooo since i still couldnt find a spot where there were obvious planes....i rolled a t34 to a town and started killing it....gave me soemthing to do. did it a couple of times then went to LW1..had a pretty good time there defending against cv atacks...only furbalkl situation on the map for bish.
also helped take a22 on beta map...rooks even numbers with bish in EW...flew over there in a hurricane...noone ups...3 bish in t34s roll over to town and kil it....noone ups...finally a flurry of 2 guys reupping again and again after i kill em....we take the town/field. so my question is "why do none of the "furballers" feel they can up and defend a base?" awful hard to take anything with small numbers if a few enemy feel like defending. the ammo load and fuel is so piss poor in non-perk EW planes that noone can hold a cap very long.:noid
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I once wondered, long ago, about resets and maps and such. Especially when it's a fun map. A nice map. With friendly sheep ... errr .... women and pretty scenery.
I mean if toolshedders have fun toolsheddin' then they'll toolshed, yeh? And if success = reset ... and success and teamwork = skill/fun ... whatever ... ok.
But .... hey .... maybe rotating the map every single reset isnt neccessary for fun, eh?
Or .... maybe it's be nice to see some really big arse maps where capturing segments of it yields perks but the big arge huge map stays and the world doesn't hafta disappear for ten minutes. (Yeah, I know ... Arlo *you* code it.) :D
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Originally posted by FALCONWING
gee dan...if you really want to dogfight why dont you come to the da?
thats where i have spent the last few nights becuz........its the only way to get an even fight with simialr planes and similar alt.
the truth i suspect is that you want recognition or score so instead of seeking what you say you want...even fights...you expect it from a dynamic and imbalanced playing field that supports more sides of the game then you "feel" like flying (i.e. base defense...gv'ing...strat)
but instead feel free to point your finger at 10 bops who are having fun flying crappy eny planes and not whining on 200 about it. yes...to make YOUR experience more fun we will divide into smaller groups and fly 3 to a country and private text each other back and forth (yes im being facetious but can you understand how ludicrous this sounds?) also check back into an arena 30 minutes later and numbers have swung other direction. with so few players in lw and ew this happens quite a bit.
I dont know what has happened to nit numbers..every arena is severely imbalanced at times...and the eny can be unfair (earlier today inflight numbers Bish 15...Rooks 13.....knits 8 AND Bish ENY was 29...rooks 13....nits 0)
Not accusing BoPs of anything. Had they switched they could have continued to fly together so that was not an issue. The problem was balance and it happens they could have solved it. I go to the low numbers team in whatever arena I'm in. As you point out, you are loyal to your friends so country shouldn't be the issue, game play and having fun should be.
And trust me, I could care less about score, landing etc. That hasn't mattered to me since my first AW tour 10 years ago now. You'll generally find me below the mob in my 38G hoping they come down..that's if i can find the mob. My openly stated goal in midwar when the switch happened was to litter the arena with my 38G parts :)
The question was, how is steamrolling fun. How was it fun for your 10 guys having no one to fight?
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DAN i hear tap dancing can be quite difficult, causing someone to miss a step. ;)
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Hay guyz, I killed the bldgs and we won the war but the enemy keeps shooting me down wat do I do??!?!
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those zany Bops, no matter how many kittens they drown or how much they raise the price of sliced bread everyone still loves them.
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hehe storch..we can do no wrong!!!
seriously tho....until HiTech makes Aces High: Furball edition...then complaining about guys playing the rest of the game will continue to seem silly.
also i got to say (as a dedicated "play for team guy")..i could care less nowadays..i was on that map that guppy was on when it got reset...we took the last base and the rooks won the war...oops....3 weeks ago we would have been pissed...instead there was a lot of funny stuff typed on country ch about our idiocy and the terrain changed...i dont think most "toolshedders" really care anymore....i think they are tryiing to have fun and hang with friends..the rest is secondary.
guys
i just dont think the community can fix this...human nature is what keep sbeing left out of the equation...i seem to remember the same guys who say we should all be changing countries never changed countries in the old MA when one country was being ganged. wouldnt that have fixed the problem with the old MA and solved hordes by like minded indivduals doing the right thing???? but it never happened....why are we blaming each other for not doing what wasnt done for years in a few weeks?
this is noone's fault...lets stop saying that AH is like a game of pick-up basketball..its not...
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Its somewhat difficult to do an opposed capture of a base with the way people "game" the game. I've seen people go for the goon or M3's with reckless abandon, exposing their six, allowing people to slam them shortly after dispatching the goon--all in the name of base defense. Then, after an immediate trip to the tower, they up again, and continue to fight with the town safe from capture.
If you put together the mother of all missions, with 20 fighters, 20 bombers, and 20 goons, all coming in at altitude, then announced your intentions to take a base on 200 in the interest of sparking a great battle, asking for 30 or 40 defenders to up there, the defenders could (in my opinion) go straight for the goons, and the chance to capture would be lost, at least until more goons could be brought in. I suppose you could take the fighters and bombers, leaving the goons a safe (if there is such a thing) distance away from the fight. If the bomber/fighter team made it through the defense and took out the hangars, killed the rest of the defenders and established air superiority, then it might work. But, you only have 15 minutes left to reduce the town, not to mention those aircraft and gv's that could up from the adjacent bases. Now, I'm not saying this is impossible to achieve, but quite difficult given the nature of game. I would imagine it would be tough to organize such an effort without a very large squad, and the defenders would also have to convince a large portion of their country to saddle up.
Personally, I agree with you Guppy. I think it would be great if every capture was a battle first, and then, to the winner goes the prize. But, in the absence of some of the conditions I listed above, it would be very difficult to put together.
Attacking a "quiet" base a sector behind the front, on the other hand, is quite achievable with a small number of people and a single goon. Given that this is much easier to coordinate, it is the norm. There is a certain level of teamwork that is required to complete the task, and I suppose that's where the enjoyment is.
I do have one question in all this, and its not a flame. What is a fair fight in this situation? Should the attackers and defenders be equal? Should the attackers announce ingress direction and altitude? Should everything break down into 1v1's X 40? Would the goons be considered off-limits until after a failed attempt? There's certainly the aspect of tactical advantage and quasi-realism that is in play here. Even in FSO, there is a certain amount of uncertainty involved even though the scenario tries to put both sides in geographic proximity at certain points in the battle. I've certainly been on both sides of a fight in there--heavily outnumber sometimes and other times with a heavy numerical advantage. I remember one night on FSO where our squad was flying P-51's and set to defend a base. A group of 262's rushed out and jumped us. We were able to stay alive by avoiding them, but eventually the main force arrived and soon we were beset with about a dozen 109's and another dozen 190's as the Ju-88's slipped through beneath us. We got crushed. It wasn't even a fair fight...but it was extremely smart.
I'm not sure I've answered the question--possibly even provoked more tangents. But, different people play the game for different reasons. I just try to find situations to play the way I want within all the other types of play going on.
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Maybe we should watch the rosters and if we see one country with overwhelming #'s and we notice a squad of 6 , 10, 20? on that side
we should come here an call em out for not switchin to even it up :rolleyes:
If a base was taken that was undefended, it was cause no one tried to save it, IMO you cant blame the attackers
Tips for Protecting "Undefended "bases
* Watch Map, look for possible NOE attacks (no dar bar, base flashin)
* One Player can screw up a capture,,,,get out low and fast, kill goon
Peace
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Originally posted by FALCONWING
hehe storch..we can do no wrong!!!
seriously tho....until HiTech makes Aces High: Furball edition...then complaining about guys playing the rest of the game will continue to seem silly.
also i got to say (as a dedicated "play for team guy")..i could care less nowadays..i was on that map that guppy was on when it got reset...we took the last base and the rooks won the war...oops....3 weeks ago we would have been pissed...instead there was a lot of funny stuff typed on country ch about our idiocy and the terrain changed...i dont think most "toolshedders" really care anymore....i think they are tryiing to have fun and hang with friends..the rest is secondary.
guys
i just dont think the community can fix this...human nature is what keep sbeing left out of the equation...i seem to remember the same guys who say we should all be changing countries never changed countries in the old MA when one country was being ganged. wouldnt that have fixed the problem with the old MA and solved hordes by like minded indivduals doing the right thing???? but it never happened....why are we blaming each other for not doing what wasnt done for years in a few weeks?
this is noone's fault...lets stop saying that AH is like a game of pick-up basketball..its not...
So what you are saying is you've reached the point where really all you want from the game is a flying Chatroom? :)
If you can recognize what's going on in the game, and I can see it, why can't anyone else?
You are right, people will follow the crowd. But that's where the CO of a crowd can make a difference, in how he 'leads' his people.
To say 'that's just the way it is", to me seems like abdicating any responsibilty to the "AH community" that gets brought up so much.
It still comes down, in my mind anyway, to how we, who are the community, make this thing work better.
I threw out my suggestion in another thread. And the goal is not to seperate the 'toolshedders' from the "furballers" but to integrate them.
I'm certainly not accusing you of being the problem. But I would suggest, considering the size of your squad(s) that you can play a large part in finding solutions if possible.
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Has anyone though that the problem with the unbalance side could be that a side has some players on it that no one wants to fly with and another most people get along really well.
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Seems like in the old days every aspect of the game was put there to encourage fighting between airplanes. That was the goal. Resets had no real meaning; in the early days, there wasn't even map change.
As we progressed this changed. It did not necessarily change because HTC changed it; we as players had the most effect. After the continual addition of many, many features somehow it was no longer about fighting per se.
Instead the reset became the goal. Perk points became a goal.
We need to somehow get back to fighting as a goal. The steamrolling of undefended fields to "win" a reset and earn perk points really isn't much to hang your hat on as a game goal. If it continues unabated, it will not be healthy for AH.
I think HTC has seen that and thus the new setup. We also need to change as players, however. HTC can't do it alone. We have to change our views too.
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Hey Guppy,
I think the desire is a few things combined, including Stoney's explanation.
One of the reasons I believe is that to some people, the goal of this game is to win the war. Period. That is the enjoyment, victory and "beating the level" so to speak. In a war, you do not attack where your opponent is strongest, but attack where it is weakest. You leave it up to the opponent to decide as to whether or not to react. Being this game is more of a bunch of individuals as opposed to a true team aspect, that opponent often does not react. What you're seeing IMO isn't a thought of "let's make sure we find empty fields", it's "Let's see where our team can make the most damage". The unfortunate part is with AH's limited Radar, and the community typically acting like individuals or small packets of wingmen as opposed to the team, there is no defending force available at those fields, and therefore it is an undefended field. (The fact that you cannot tell where the enemy is until it's almost too late just adds to the issue).
I know when the squad I'm in was more active, we'd often aim for fields that were not in the "battle" but one field away from it. We didn't do it because we wanted undefended fields. We did it because we wanted to A) help our team win the map, B) draw fire away from our teammates at another base, and C) hope the opponent WOULD up and defend the field to begin a nice base battle.
Just my thoughts.
*shrug*. lol
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Knite got it right, fights are even funnier when the goal is defending a field or capturing it, not just going straight to closest contact.
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Guppy I was one of the 10 BOPs on at the time and I belive we were fairly evenly split. I and a few others were fending off the rooks from taking our bases and others were helping bish take bases trying to win the war and what it turned out to be was a race with the Rooks to win.
And like I have stated in other threads why if I am trying to help my team win would I want to jump and help the other team win?? Jumping here and there to help even out sides dosn't really work for the win the war types like me...
NOTE: Yes I am a "win the war type" but I am not afraid of a fight as so many say us "win the war" types are. Like I said I was fighting Rooks to hold them off of our bases.
I think the big reason that all of the rolling undefended or next to undefended bases happened was that both Rooks and Bish took the path of least resistance and like I said it became a race to reset...
While I see the problems with a 2 sided war, a 2 sided war would have worked out well in this instance as both Rooks and Bish had almost identical #'s.
And yes there might have been 10 BOPs on but I'll bet there were 10 other people on in Bish and rooks and they didn't want to jump either, so (though you probably know this) this is not just a BOP or any other squads problem....
[EDIT] Oh and what Knite said. :)
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Originally posted by Guppy35
No one has answered my question yet
The answer is simple : because it's possible (note that I don't agree but ... it's possible)
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LOL Dan plays for score? So he can get his name in headlights?
Good one, Falc.
:rofl
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Originally posted by FALCONWING
yes...to make YOUR experience more fun we will divide into smaller groups and fly 3 to a country and private text each other back and forth (yes im being facetious but can you understand how ludicrous this sounds?)
No. Actually, it works quite well and can be a lot of fun for the squad that splits.
- oldman
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I usually make it a point to be on the opposite side of my squadmates so I can shoot them down and laugh at them. It's fun.
:)
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Yes it can. :) http://www.furballunderground.com/Guest/SA.ahf
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Originally posted by fungi987
Aww come on its only been a month;)
Give it time they say. The numbers will even out:rolleyes:
I feel your pain Gup
Fungi
Very true. They will even up. It will be something like this when you log in.
EWA 0/250
MWA 0/250
LWA1 250/250
LWA2 250/250
LWA3 10/250 (these are the guys that will be having so much fun, they will prepay for 5 years :lol
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LOL is that the film I think it is?
:mad:
Cherry picking hoicane tard. I got Morph first tho. He was pissed heh.
:t
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Deleted
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Originally posted by Guppy35
I checked the roster when I got in to see who was flying and noted that on the high numbers Bish, there were 10+ BoPs.
Had they chosen to go to the low numbers side when they saw the numbers imbalance it would have been even sides all around.
They didn't.
Here we go... :(
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Originally posted by Guppy35
And I really want to know the appeal of it.
Its about winning........ not the value of the win.......... just the win itself..................... like playing group solitaire................ no actual opponent.
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Originally posted by Flayed1
......snip....
And like I have stated in other threads why if I am trying to help my team win would I want to jump and help the other team win?? Jumping here and there to help even out sides dosn't really work for the win the war types like me...
.....snip.....
[EDIT] Oh and what Knite said. :)
OK, you want to win the war.
1) But lets take that night's situation to its extreme.....what if there were NO players on the low side? Would it still have been fun to take all the bases and "win"? What exactly have you won, if there was no opposition? Why is it satisfying, and what is the point of your "team" winning against no one? Be honest -- 40 guys "defeating" 5 guys is an awful lot like the Steelers "defeating" the local Pop Warner team.
If it was fun at all, would it have been as much fun as an evenly matched victory? And if an evenly matched contest is what's most fun, then defending against the odds would be kinda fun too -- provided there was some hope of succeeding.
Lastly, winning against guys who arent playing the same game has to be HOLLOW (if you have any insight at all); so if you reset when everybody's A2A fighting it means....what? How meaningful is a touchdown some kid "scores" by grabbing a ball and running to the endzone during halftime? No one tried to stop him --shoot, no one else was playing....and if he's proud of doing it, well, with all respect he's an idiot.
2) No matter if your "team" is a wingmate, a squad, or a country, it's important to remember that the guys you're playing against are PEOPLE. They are here for fun too, they most likely want the same thing you do. Remembering that, and respecting your opponents, is called SPORTSMANSHIP. No one can demand that from you, but if you choose to play in an overwhelmingly selfish way, disregarding and disrespecting your opponents, don't expect to be respected.
It's overwhelmingly, incredibly simple. Just treat others the way you would want to be treated in their situation.
You dont have to stop trying, you dont have to turn in your ammo. Play the game....the way you like...but respect the other players enough to do right by them while you play. And, if you're on the side with 40, and they're on the side with 5.....what would YOU suggest is "doing right by them"?
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Originally posted by Guppy35
I'm certain the air to air guys would be more then happy to fly against the air to building guys. The problem is the air to building guys don't seem to want to go anywhere near the air to air guys.
Not trying to be a jerk.... just some questions and comments.....
If numbers are equal, how do the A>G group avoid the A>A group? Loaded with ordinance performance is inferior, so you can't outrun them. It would have to be surprise. Unless the A>A guys just don't want the fight.
Numbers imbalance is self-explanatory. But an arena with a hypothetical 30-20-10 split is a lot worse then a 160-150-140 split in a larger population (single world/arena).
It just seems to me that multiple arenas aggravates the imbalance problem which seems to be the root cause.
I've logged on maybe 6 different days since the change - just guessing. Here's what I do generally. I go to either the MW or EW arena first, whichever has the largest number. When I get in the first thing I do is check the roster. If the numbers are out of wack I leave for the other arena. So far one of those two arenas has worked for me -- which is good because in the time period when I ususally fly the LW is packed and you get tossed to the little arena with 40 players, something I'm not interested in.
Once in I look to the map and see where the bars are. Start flying there and wait for a mission to come up. If something comes up good where I know the guys planning/flying I'll join. If during that mission we take a base with no resistance my patience will be about shot. But sometimes if I've got nothing else going on I'll stick around for a second mission. No resistance on that one and I'll probably log. These last few months I'm not able to play for long hours on end.
From my perspective when that occurs (lack of resistance) its boring, but there's not much you can do. If a country's players are not interested in defending their fields, and they're scared of taking on a group larger then 10 -- what can you do?
The new setup does not seem horribly bad or anything, there are a few annoying things that happen once in a while, but I had that in the old MA too. I just don't see how anything is going to solve the issues some guys have of only wanting to fight in small numbers.
I just wanted to edit this with a quick comment. I like the EW arena. Don't get me wrong. Its far more fun then I had with the AvA.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
There's a certain irony in you saying that about numbers evening out.
I checked the roster when I got in to see who was flying and noted that on the high numbers Bish, there were 10+ BoPs.
Had they chosen to go to the low numbers side when they saw the numbers imbalance it would have been even sides all around.
They didn't.
But then if they had done that, they couldn't fall back on the safety of the hord.
I've been wondering myself about the milkrunners and trying to see what the fun they see in attacking undefended bases.
I'm not going to point any squadrons out but the other night in the MWA, I saw a friendly base flash so I go there. I hope into the tower and can see 3-4 Bishops attacking the base. So I up from a nearby base and fly over and shoot them down. I refuel and rearm expecting those 3-4 guys to come back but instead they attacked the deserted, undefended Knight base a sector away. So I go to that base, shoot down a couple of more and again, they move off to the next undefended base. So I finally said screw it, if they want to fly like little timid gits and only attack things that can't fight back then let them. The fights against them were just a waste of ammo, fuel and my time anyway.
ack-ack
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Capturing bases give a squad something to do as teammates and friends. There can be tactics used as well as roles certain individuals can be during a base capture. It is really fun. Going NOE, in a tight group, with friends, going to a base that no one will expect at first. Then killing AAA and setting up the base cap and then knocking down the town.
You have little time because someone may up an la7 from a nearby base. This la7 will come in on the deck with lots of speed. No one will be able to catch this la7 and he will ho everyone he sees. You can't afford to die because there's no way you will make it back in time to help and the la7 can also just up from the base 1 mile away and ho someone again until he sees the goon and then runs after that. There's little you can do unless you can get a path that allows you to intercept the la7 and ho him before he gets the goon.
It just takes 1 la7 to kill the goon and the whole raid is over. It's very exciting. The less numbers you have, the harder it is to capture a base as well as the less people you can afford to fight against, in order to get a successful base capture.
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Once, my group leaders were only going after undefended base captures. We were on our third base capture. It was a Vbase. It was unsuccessful because too many gv's upped before the VHs went dead. Group leaders said to stop and go somewhere else. They had given up. Then I raillied a few squaddies to help continue the fight. We had bombers going in a high alt, bombing vhs at the base, as well as nearby bases. We had goons comnig from far bases from different directions. We had jabo planes like a20s and 110s kill gvs that would up whenever the vhs popped. We also had friendlies grab a few panzers and push toward the fields. When they died, it took awhile for them to drive back to the vbase. When the enemy gvs died, they would just sit tight until the VHs pop'd. We had fighter sweeps to prevent la7s and typhoons from coming in from the west. They were goon hunters and always staying high and killing our goons or porking troops. We also had c47s resupply bases. All this happened in 3 hours. We eventually got the base once we had held the vhs down at 3 bases, our friendlies got panzers on the field, fighter sweeps held the enemy 25miles away, and a goon survived the trip as well as an a20 to clean up any enemy gvs that were rolling in from another field.
Best base capture I ever experienced. Oh and betty was banned from flying C47s because of that day.:D
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Ack-Ack, everyside is doing it. I'm bish. and the same thing happens to us. I do not belong to a squad, will see a base flashing and go there. Unlike you I not good enough to shoot down 4 or 5 emy planes by myself so I call for help and guess what happens sometimes, no one shows up, bye bye base. You have to blame you ownside sometimes, defending is as much a part of the game as taking bases. Oh, I have taken base by myself and LOVED DOING IT.
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it all started when they added gv's
for some reason it went from Aces High, a combat flight simulation game to a clone of WWII Online with an attempt to provide something for everyone regardless of their ability to play/complete in the game in its original format
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Originally posted by Eagler
it all started when they added gv's
for some reason it went from Aces High, a combat flight simulation game to a clone of WWII Online with an attempt to provide something for everyone regardless of their ability to play/complete in the game in its original format
If that's the case and many more people have joined under this setup, so what?
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Well Sim first I myself as I stated was playing against other people defending against many Rooks.... Other bish were also playing against other people indirectly at a different type of game, the I can take bases faster than you game..
Really because there were so few Nits on, bish were playing only against rooks for the most part just not in direct combat... Not that I think this particular type of playing is fun, thats why I was defending against rooks.
And even if I did change teams there is no garontee that I could get other Bish to change with me so then I would end up fighting the no win war against the overwhelming odds that we have now right along side the nits.
The only way I ever see this being fair is if HT did something like when I used to play Delta Force and you would log on and it would just stick you on what ever team needed you the most and you just fought for the color of team you were on without question. In here you would just log on and fight for the country you were placed with and attempt to work with who ever you were stuck with. Combine this witha 2 sided war to help concentrate the low #'s in each arena and there you go.
Though this would probably kill the squad thing all togeather.
Soooo I'll just sit here on Bish continue to fight rooks and see how it comes out in the wash.
Like I said I don't find the ENY limiter to be much of a hinderance most of the planes I like to fly are pretty high up on the eny #'s anyway and it just turns the MWA into another EWA.
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Originally posted by smash
Not trying to be a jerk.... just some questions and comments.....
If numbers are equal, how do the A>G group avoid the A>A group? Loaded with ordinance performance is inferior, so you can't outrun them. It would have to be surprise. Unless the A>A guys just don't want the fight.
Very easy. The A>G people will clime to 15K and dive through every deffender releasing their bombs moments before compression. Some will survive and make a few more high speed passes. Once speed is gone, ack or deffenders will get them.
Maybe not a jerk but either new and not get it or not very bright and not get it. BTW, that was not a question. It was a statement that the A>A people dont want to fight. :huh
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Originally posted by BugsBunny
Very easy. The A>G people will clime to 15K and dive through every deffender releasing their bombs moments before compression. Some will survive and make a few more high speed passes. Once speed is gone, ack or deffenders will get them.
Maybe not a jerk but either new and not get it or not very bright and not get it. BTW, that was not a question. It was a statement that the A>A people dont want to fight. :huh
I took it as a question, and even if it wasn't, how 'bout answering it as a question to steer the discussion back away from the flame. So far this has been a fairly rational discussion...
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Originally posted by Donzo
If that's the case and many more people have joined under this setup, so what?
nothing really, other than it should be called ww2 combat and not aces high as it is not exclusive to a2a combat anymore - the title is misleading
Guppy asked a question and I provided an answer imo, that is all
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Originally posted by jtdragon
Ack-Ack, everyside is doing it. I'm bish. and the same thing happens to us.
I never said it didn't, I was just providing an example of what I encountered.
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Originally posted by BugsBunny
Very easy. The A>G people will clime to 15K and dive through every deffender releasing their bombs moments before compression. Some will survive and make a few more high speed passes. Once speed is gone, ack or deffenders will get them.
So the complaint is you can't intercept co-alt because you don't have enough time to climb? And if they only survive a short time its all over anyway, no 'freebie' base capture.
I'm just trying to get a grip on why there seems to be such a dislike of missions and group action. In the ye olde days squads were saluted... and they were saluted for base capture. You joined a squad whose members had great scores and ranks -- if you were good enough.
Looks to me like the crux of a lot of it is just crap flying. I've been around long enough to have seen a few of those trends. There was the HO/Collision phase... the CV suicide bomber phase.... maybe now its the lawn dart jabo phase.... I've always said that planes were too cheap.
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up and defend, then they cant milkk run.
milk running is easier now because there is hardly any players in the arena......:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Guppy35
And your comment speaks loudly to the problem.
Seperate the players even more. How do we get both to fly in the same area? I'm certain the air to air guys would be more then happy to fly against the air to building guys. The problem is the air to building guys don't seem to want to go anywhere near the air to air guys.
Instead you suggest the air to air guys should go to the DA.
How do we put the different types of players together jon?
i believe you won't. the old da was what some of us were looking for. i liked to fly the da sometimes and the ma sometimes. i would go fly da for a while and have alot of fun. then go to ma and get po'ed. or visa versa. notat the horde or people in da , but at myself for my not having enough skill or right situational awarenes. my opinion is that most of this happened at least to me, when the da was changed . we had mods in ma mods in da would have solved the da problem. but now gup it is all up in the air some like this, (not me ) some like the old,ht owns the game and can do what he wants. i deleted my account , and reinstated it , and i dont know if i should have wasted the money. to me the old was good . now i dont fly very often but i still like to. AND to answer your question , YES if killshooter was off :aok
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I don't really have an answer Guppy. Base Capture has it's place to many here. Lots of squads dedicated to doing that. The squad I am in doesn't really do it alot but have been known on occasion to capture a couple. The thing is when we get beat at it , it usually starts a real good fight between thos 2 bases and we have a great time.
What I see in SO MANY posts about the sides is , why don't people just change sides.
A) For the betterment of the community....
B) For even numbers
C) To stop the horde
D) all the above and more.....
I have been flying knights since I joind this squad. I flew Rooks for a time. There's no difference in the type of play really from 1 side to another.
What IS different is , I have fun goofing with the SQUAD I am in. We talk , laugh , tell jokes , and what nots. Thats the part of being in a squad that I enjoy most. Pairing up at times to go fight someplace. Escorting some buffs someplace. Being a help to the Knights as we want. Even if it is keeping 8 or 10 rooks or Bishes busy in a furball while the others are attacking someplace. Yes , that may be undefended. As was mentioned , if the win the war types want to win , why would they take the path of HARDEST resistance? Eventually you will have to fight to win , but in a "War" you go where they are not and take territory.
I for one am not going to "Change Sides" for numbers problems. IF one side is low and getting beat up , well , sorry. I'm not as was said going to change to fight my squaddies. I can go to the DA to do that. Whats the point of having squads , if "For the betterment of the community" we don't fly together.
Thjis whole change thing is in my opinion just a mess. Started as a mess , no warning just done , no input , just done. The old MA was stale. I totally agree. But what was stale? The fights? The Hordes? To many Spit 16's , LA7's? IF that was it then why not just perk em and chenge the number of them you saw?
Ther's so many questions , I have read thru and thought about.
I keep seeing this tho mainly.
"People should switch sides to help gameplay. To even the sides up. To keep the hordes from taking over." Over and Over I see this.
Well I play with friends. I'm going to contiue to , or quit.
3 or 4 arenas , and still the same questions. Why Hordes (now like 8 people instead of 30) Why roll undefended bases.....why is the ENY so harsh....on and on.
Wish I could help ya...no idea...not sure I'll stay here. Maybe winter time will bring people out. I have no idea. I do know , I was having fun flying at 9:00 in the a.m. central time til about 1:00 central time in the old MA. Bout 100-200 on. Yeah lots of LA's and Spits. So what. We had fights.
Now EW has 20 people.....MW has 30 or so. This is during when I could play.
I have taken more of this summer off after a very trying time last summer losing my Mom....
But , if the numbers now are an indication of the future.....I'll spend my 16.00 a month on HBO or Showtime.
:(
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I like to play poker. I have a group of friends and acquaintenances with whom I enjoy playing poker. I like winning at poker even more than I like playing poker. However, my sense of gamesmanship tells me that I should only enjoy winning at poker when I have done so fairly- that is to say, when I don't enjoy any sort of overwhelming advantage. I guess I fail to see how anyone would only play a game, or enjoy a game, in which they have some sort of advantage. Doesn't having some sort of pronounced advantage, either with superior numbers, or by avoiding interaction with the opposing team, take the joy out of the win? If you haven't beaten anyone, or haven't interacted with your opponents, what have you really won?
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
However, my sense of gamesmanship tells me that I should only enjoy winning at poker when I have done so fairly- that is to say, when I don't enjoy any sort of overwhelming advantage. I guess I fail to see how anyone would only play a game, or enjoy a game, in which they have some sort of advantage.
Ok, bear with me on this one...
I fly Jugs a lot, its my favorite plane to fly. Only thing is, you have to be careful about how you fly it, as its a slug down low. Not fast enough to out run the burners, turns like a bullet, and climbs like a rock. Dives like an S.O.B. though. So, I take off behind friendly lines, climb to 15K plus, and then head for the action. In my time playing, I can count on 1 hand the amount of time I've been able to fight the plane in its element--at 20-25K+, and they've always been either 152's or bombers. I've seen Yucca and Blukitty do some nasty stuff when outnumbered and at a disadvantage in the Jug, but I'm no where near that good yet. So, I try and set myself up for success before I enter the fight the best I know how at this point in my AH experience.
Now, take this technique wrought large. If I am trying to take a base, (and using the suicidal goon killers mentioned in my previous post) and trying to suppress the base while taking the town in order to keep the goon from dying before it can get troops out, I've got a strong motivation to try and take a base that is not showing any activity on the dar bar--surprise and all that. I don't want GV's or planes shooting down the C-47. If I rush headlong into a base with an established CAP, I can guarantee the goon doesn't last long.
I don't expect any quarter in the MA. The sterile environment of the TA and DA is where I can exercise skills in a fair fight. Even if 85% of the pilots show some sort of sportsmanship and "fairness", the other 15% are prevalent enough to ruin my sortie expecting "rules". If there was a sportsmanlike attitude around the MA's and a good fight resulting in air superiority for the attacker gave them a "gimme" base capture, you might see folks attack defended bases. They would do so knowing their goon was safe unless their attack failed. But, I've seen guys bail out of planes so they could run into the bunker and shoot the troops coming in. With that type of defensive tenacity, you're going to have a hard time convincing the base-capture types they should modify their tactics...
Ideally, you would have an even distribution of players on one side defending, attacking, and flying patrols to knock down attacks before they got to the bases. But, whose going to organize and/or convince people to go up and drone around at altitude for 45 mins at max cruise in order to CAP a portion of the map that is quiet, on the off chance someone might try and take the base?
For those that feel like taking bases is an entertaining part of the game, its a valid tactic. Its certainly historically valid. I'm not a big land-grab kind of player, but if I was, given the state of things in the MA's, I'd certainly use it. My squad goes on the occasional base capture from time to time, and we use it as a tactic. There's still some teamwork and technique necessary for the capture, regardless of whether or not anyone ups or not. The only advantage the offense has in this game (from the strat aspect) is the initial surprise and momentum, and even that is threatened by god-like dar bar and the radar at each base. Since the defenders can keep re-upping after they are killed, the offense doesn't offer an advantage long-held. Take out all the fighter hangars, and people start upping IL-2's for the ultimate HO fest. I personally think that is a pretty gamey technique, but it works for them and I expect it. So again, yeah, the attackers have some fairly strong motivation to take bases where the crickets are chirping. Remove that motivation by some technique other than peer pressure, and you've given them a fair shake at tackling a defended base.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I like to play poker. I have a group of friends and acquaintenances with whom I enjoy playing poker. I like winning at poker even more than I like playing poker. However, my sense of gamesmanship tells me that I should only enjoy winning at poker when I have done so fairly- that is to say, when I don't enjoy any sort of overwhelming advantage. I guess I fail to see how anyone would only play a game, or enjoy a game, in which they have some sort of advantage. Doesn't having some sort of pronounced advantage, either with superior numbers, or by avoiding interaction with the opposing team, take the joy out of the win? If you haven't beaten anyone, or haven't interacted with your opponents, what have you really won?
This is the bestest analogy I have evar herd about balancing sides in this game. Seriously. I wish it was 5 lines or less b/c it would be my sig...
:)
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Originally posted by Flayed1
.........snip......
And even if I did change teams there is no garontee that I could get other Bish to change with me so then I would end up fighting the no win war against the overwhelming odds that we have now right along side the nits.
......snip.........
So, you're pretty much saying that it would really suck to be on the receiving end of what you do to others.
But you keep doing it anyway, and you will keep doing it because you arent willing to step out alone.
It seems you see the problem -- which is why you won't go to the low side alone. After all, it sucks to be them, right?
But it also seems that if you "could get other bish to change with me" then treating the other guys fairly might be an option for you. So, I'd just ask this -- talk it over with some friends. Figure out what the barriers are that keep you from doing the right thing. See if those barriers are real (like principles of right and wrong) or just traditions subject to adjustment. See if your friends would be willing to try something different, to think outside their usual box....
....and try to treat other people the way you'd want to be treated if you were in their shoes.
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Originally posted by Stoney74
Ok, bear with me on this one...
I fly Jugs a lot, its my favorite plane to fly. Only thing is, you have to be careful about how you fly it, as its a slug down low. Not fast enough to out run the burners, turns like a bullet, and climbs like a rock. Dives like an S.O.B. though. So, I take off behind friendly lines, climb to 15K plus, and then head for the action. In my time playing, I can count on 1 hand the amount of time I've been able to fight the plane in its element--at 20-25K+, and they've always been either 152's or bombers. I've seen Yucca and Blukitty do some nasty stuff when outnumbered and at a disadvantage in the Jug, but I'm no where near that good yet. So, I try and set myself up for success before I enter the fight the best I know how at this point in my AH experience.
Nothing personnal BUT, you'll never get as good as YUCCA or Blu by climbing to 15K. How do you think they got as good as they are? They sure didn't go in 15K and pick. They went in low, died over and over and learned how to really fly that plane on the edge. Don't worry about dying, it's the only way to learn. Go in at a disadvantage knowing your going to get creamed. Who cares? Stall that big single engined bomber, push it to the edge. You'll never get "better" by staying up were it's safe. You have to dive in and take your lumps.
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Well said Hubsonfire!
Its like playing a FPS with cheats onin god mode, yeah it fills time, but is it really fun?
Granted, I used to be a "knights only" player. But with the new arena setups can anyone really afford to have that kind of loyalty anymore?
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Ahhh but Sim my friend you keep missing the point that I was fighting the rooks not the nits that only had 9 people on.... You keep trying to make it seem that I personally was over there on the Nit front ganging them but I wasn't. I was defending my bases from rooks who had around the same #'s as we did, dealing with the 29 ENY limiter as it poped on and off and was fine with it... If the game was simply all about furballing than swaping sides would be more of an option but I don't play just for the furball and would probably quit if it ever got to that point. On a good note the MWA was almost even last night :)
I kinda liked an idea or a varriant of it, I saw some where on the forum about making the low sided countries biulding hardness increase the more they were out #'d To the point where they would be nearly impossible to take unless you brought most of your forces to bear on them but that would let the 3rd country hit you in the back door... So the end result would be that if you couldn't or it was extreamly difficult to take the low #'d side's bases then you would be forced to fight the more = #'d side if you wanted to play the land grab game.
Hub the problem with the poker analogy is for me this would be like playing 2 of the 3 sides in a 3 person poker game... What fun is there playing against myserlf? I simply just play against the other player that is still in the game and ignore the extra 5% of the 3rd player untill there is enough of a person there to play against.. I can't do much about the other people that seem to want to play against the 5% of a person.
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What part of "I've seen Yucca and Blukitty do some nasty stuff when outnumbered and at a disadvantage in the Jug, but I'm no where near that good yet. So, I try and set myself up for success before I enter the fight the best I know how at this point in my AH experience." says any different?
I'm learning, ok? For christ's sake, I was just trying to illustrate a point.
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I think you've missed the point while they missed your point. you guys a far too pointy, blunt up some.
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Hubfucius say:
Originally posted by hubsonfire
I like to play poker. I have a group of friends and acquaintenances with whom I enjoy playing poker. I like winning at poker even more than I like playing poker. However, my sense of gamesmanship tells me that I should only enjoy winning at poker when I have done so fairly- that is to say, when I don't enjoy any sort of overwhelming advantage. I guess I fail to see how anyone would only play a game, or enjoy a game, in which they have some sort of advantage. Doesn't having some sort of pronounced advantage, either with superior numbers, or by avoiding interaction with the opposing team, take the joy out of the win? If you haven't beaten anyone, or haven't interacted with your opponents, what have you really won?
I like puppies.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
However, my sense of gamesmanship tells me that I should only enjoy winning at poker when I have done so fairly- that is to say, when I don't enjoy any sort of overwhelming advantage. I guess I fail to see how anyone would only play a game, or enjoy a game, in which they have some sort of advantage.
Really? So you never bounce with an altitude advantage? You never pull up deep in a guys 6 and sneak in to blast him before he knows you're there?
To some extent the whole game is about getting and exploiting the advantage. The only place I draw the line is the suicide tactics. Its a rare thing for me to auger for any reason.
Originally posted by TOAD
Seems like in the old days every aspect of the game was put there to encourage fighting between airplanes. That was the goal. Resets had no real meaning; in the early days, there wasn't even map change.
As we progressed this changed. It did not necessarily change because HTC changed it; we as players had the most effect. After the continual addition of many, many features somehow it was no longer about fighting per se.
Toad, if you're the same guy I remember (Val of Death?) then you and I both remember a 2d world with no strat - or almost none anyway. And when we finally got strat - and it had some meaning - it was the coolest thing since sliced bread.
Creating a world that is more and more real brings with it behaviour changes, obviously. Personally, I'm not interested in going backwards to less realism, but rather forward with enhancements that create an artificial world that as closely as possible resembles reality. Thats the whole burrito - weather, gvs, naval -- everything. Otherwise, whats the point? Strictly to practice ACM in fighters? I'm not saying I wouldn't show up for that, but it reminds me of liking icecream but only ever ordering vanilla.
Why even fly the TBM if you can't operate the aircraft realistically in the environment it was originally designed for? They're not drones.
I dislike artificial limitations. I'd much rather have the challenge of an enemy who can organize as he sees fit, and attack the way he wants.
The one thing I would like to see changed is something to eliminate suicide dweebs and impose some kind of penalty for dying. Not just an incentive for living... thats not enough. A real, honest tough penalty for dying in the aircraft. Like on a per player basis one aircraft per type per 30 minutes. Or one aircraft per type per 30 minutes per sector. Something where planes are not an unlimited resource.
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Originally posted by Overlag
up and defend, then they cant milkk run.
It doesn't matter if you up to defend your base because the milkrunners will stop their attack and move off to find another undefended base.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
It doesn't matter if you up to defend your base because the milkrunners will stop their attack and move off to find another undefended base.
ack-ack
Okay.
Now up at the next indefended base the milkrunners are attacking and defend.
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Smash, Stoney, I'm talking about the refusal to do anything to improve gameplay as a whole. Only taking undefended fields with a mob, fleeing at the very threat of having to interact with your opponents, flying only for the side with the most numbers, etc.
It has nothing to do with shooting people down from behind in the game, or trying to exploit the strengths of your plane or using your mortal fear of losing a fight to your advantage. Admittedly, I don't enjoy that kind of thing, but I suppose you could make the case that some people always fold every hand that isn't a guaranteed winner. They may technically be "good" players in a sense, but they suck to have to play with. Either of the scenarios you mention is pretty much a polar opposite of both the discussion, and the type of thing I was referring too.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
It doesn't matter if you up to defend your base because the milkrunners will stop their attack and move off to find another undefended base.
ack-ack
this is the problem.
you blame the problem on THEM, doing exactly what any one "at war" would do, yet you wont move around and defend?
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Originally posted by Overlag
this is the problem.
you blame the problem on THEM, doing exactly what any one "at war" would do, yet you wont move around and defend?
But that's the point that gets missed so often. We're not at 'war', we're at game.
If death was real it would be one thing, but in AH there is no real cost when you die, and you get a brand new plane everytime you do :)
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Originally posted by Overlag
this is the problem.
you blame the problem on THEM, doing exactly what any one "at war" would do, yet you wont move around and defend?
Are you naturally this dense or you do actually have to work at it? Maybe if I type a little slower you might be able to comprehend a little better.
If...I...up...to...defend...t hey...move...to...the...next. ..undefended...base.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Are you naturally this dense or you do actually have to work at it? Maybe if I type a little slower you might be able to comprehend a little better.
If...I...up...to...defend...t hey...move...to...the...next. ..undefended...base.
ack-ack
Picking the path of least resistance....solid win the war tactic. :aok
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Originally posted by smash
So the complaint is you can't intercept co-alt because you don't have enough time to climb? And if they only survive a short time its all over anyway, no 'freebie' base capture.
I'm just trying to get a grip on why there seems to be such a dislike of missions and group action. In the ye olde days squads were saluted... and they were saluted for base capture. You joined a squad whose members had great scores and ranks -- if you were good enough.
Looks to me like the crux of a lot of it is just crap flying. I've been around long enough to have seen a few of those trends. There was the HO/Collision phase... the CV suicide bomber phase.... maybe now its the lawn dart jabo phase.... I've always said that planes were too cheap.
Not a complain. I was answering your question. There is no intercept unless you mean HO them. Once the nose points down, there is no catching them
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Are you naturally this dense or you do actually have to work at it? Maybe if I type a little slower you might be able to comprehend a little better.
If...I...up...to...defend...t hey...move...to...the...next. ..undefended...base.
ack-ack
you musta miss read my post..... i said "yet you wont move around and defend?"
1: they try to milkrun base###
2: you up and defend
3: the attack dies out, so defenders can land
4: return to 1.
it goes on. tbh this is where the fun is, defending or attacking bases. When attacking (often with grillparty) we will attack constantly untill we have the base, or its impossible. Some will move on at the instance of any defence showing up....but theres nothing wrong with that, its a valid tactic.
Its LETTING them do it thats what is wrong. If they can move to attack other bases fast, then you can move around and defend just as fast.
the only real problem now which is making you notice milk runners more, is these new small MA's with no numbers.
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Originally posted by smash
Not trying to be a jerk.... just some questions and comments.....
If numbers are equal, how do the A>G group avoid the A>A group? Loaded with ordinance performance is inferior, so you can't outrun them. It would have to be surprise. Unless the A>A guys just don't want the fight.
Numbers imbalance is self-explanatory. But an arena with a hypothetical 30-20-10 split is a lot worse then a 160-150-140 split in a larger population (single world/arena).
It just seems to me that multiple arenas aggravates the imbalance problem which seems to be the root cause.
I've logged on maybe 6 different days since the change - just guessing. Here's what I do generally. I go to either the MW or EW arena first, whichever has the largest number. When I get in the first thing I do is check the roster. If the numbers are out of wack I leave for the other arena. So far one of those two arenas has worked for me -- which is good because in the time period when I ususally fly the LW is packed and you get tossed to the little arena with 40 players, something I'm not interested in.
Once in I look to the map and see where the bars are. Start flying there and wait for a mission to come up. If something comes up good where I know the guys planning/flying I'll join. If during that mission we take a base with no resistance my patience will be about shot. But sometimes if I've got nothing else going on I'll stick around for a second mission. No resistance on that one and I'll probably log. These last few months I'm not able to play for long hours on end.
From my perspective when that occurs (lack of resistance) its boring, but there's not much you can do. If a country's players are not interested in defending their fields, and they're scared of taking on a group larger then 10 -- what can you do?
The new setup does not seem horribly bad or anything, there are a few annoying things that happen once in a while, but I had that in the old MA too. I just don't see how anything is going to solve the issues some guys have of only wanting to fight in small numbers.
I just wanted to edit this with a quick comment. I like the EW arena. Don't get me wrong. Its far more fun then I had with the AvA.
Hmmmm... Interesting.
When I read this I heard... I will wait for an organized Horde so I can attach a base. No one ups to defend against my horde so it is boring. Boo to all those who do not up to defend against the horde.
In the mean time I will not consider defending any of my bases. So aren't you one of them that you boo?
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Either of the scenarios you mention is pretty much a polar opposite of both the discussion, and the type of thing I was referring too.
All right, but what I read through with some of these threads is a general painting with the proverbial broad brush. For example, I like flying with a squad or in a group but
Originally posted by hubsonfire
Only taking undefended fields with a mob, fleeing at the very threat of having to interact with your opponents, flying only for the side with the most numbers, etc
That would not be me. And I'm betting that what you are describing is the minority, but I'll be honest and say I'm really not sure. I only came back to flying here a few months ago. Whats rather funny in a painful way is that I dropped $1k just on flight controllers to play this and then within a few months it heads off in a weird direction. Ouch.
And in reading Hitechs posting on what to expect in the future its pretty obvious he ain't looking at things the way I do :) So guess what... it is the way it is and it ain't changin'.
A couple of things. I assume that HTC's crew flys frequently under shade accounts of some kind and they were unhappy with gameplay. Plus I figure they hit some kind of revenue plateau and are trying to figure out how to break through/past that. You can't blame them for trying to improve their situation.
I'm only posting (and it just happened to be in response to some of your comments) because interacting on the forum was a way to get my view on the gameplay out there. It seems there are a lot of really vocal people who really only want to see this thing as an air to air combat sim. A little back and forth is good, if nothing else to understand better what you are thinking.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
We're not at 'war', we're at game.
Then HT should design the game so that "The war has been won by the --" should not exsist, the dar should be all the way down to ground level, every building should be indestructible, and anyone's interest in causing damage covertly is considered subverse and unacceptable. So WW2-like aerial combat is fine, and everything else HT incorporated into the full scope of the game is frowned upon?
People will do (and have done) the covert-ops regardless of the years of whines. The fact remains that HT has not yet changed the game to make that kind of play impossible, therefore it will continue by anyone, anywhere, anytime until he actually changes the game.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
It doesn't matter if you up to defend your base because the milkrunners will stop their attack and move off to find another undefended base.
ack-ack
Thats why its called DEFENSE - you up and defend, and the stop the attack. They go someplace else to attack, you up and defend there. If you have stopped the attack, your defense was successful - congratulate yourself because the attackers are hating the fact that they were unsuccessful.
EagleDNY
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Originally posted by Overlag
this is the problem.
you blame the problem on THEM, doing exactly what any one "at war" would do, yet you wont move around and defend?
I've been on the recieving end of NOE missions, either within the dar circle of the intended base to be taken, or between bases (thier's and ours), and for me it's fun to get them all riled up when they see me, the enemy. I alert the rest of the country/squad, and that is where the furball begins- the base defense against the mission offense. Great chance for either side to rack up some kills.
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Originally posted by Donzo
Picking the path of least resistance....solid win the war tactic. :aok
considering the source of that statement, I can understand why you like to milkrun.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
considering the source of that statement, I can understand why you like to milkrun.
ack-ack
The source of "that" statement was me. So what's your point?
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OK - I'm a landgrabber, and for the record, yes, I'd like for my country to win the war every single time. Why you may ask? Is it the amazing 20 whole perk points, or the new map we get to see? No - it is just more interesting to me to get a coordinated attack going and fly with my buds than it is to up an uber plane, fight 1 vs 1, rinse, and repeat ad nauseam.
By my take on this thread, one question seems to be: why do you bother taking undefended land? To which I respond, well why the hell don't you up and defend your land? Having been on the defense myself quite a bit, I know that there are a variety of ways for a smaller force to frustrate the attackers and ruin their day - goon hunting, troop porking, etc. In the midst of that you might even get some good A to A battles.
Another complaint is that it is too difficult to stop the 15K jabos diving through the defenders and getting to target. OK - having been a jabo whose job it is to get through the defense and get my bombs on target, I shouldn't be expected to sit there like a pidgeon so you can have fun. Get up to 20K and dive down on me and maybe you'll stop me. I will grant you this - the radar ranges are too short to make an effective intercept by the time you see the attackers on radar. I have made postings to this effect and have suggested HT increase the base and CV radar ranges so that it would be easier for the defense to get up and intercept, and I have also suggested large strat radars covering a large area.
Another complaint seems to be about "hordes" attacking. Lets face it - squaddies usually like to fly together, so if they all are attacking a single target you are going to have a horde. The best battles I've seen on this game are the horde of attackers vs the horde of defenders, so if you like A to A, then join in the horde and have at it. If you don't have a horde, then most likely the perk point cost of a Tempest/262/Spit XIV/F4U4 (insert arena uber ride here) is going to be real low for you, so up one of those and have fun that way.
I would submit for the good of the game as a whole, the game should be oriented more towards hordes and landgrabbing / base capture / strat destruction. Why you may ask? Put yourself in the role of a complete newbie coming into the game - you can get up OK, but then what? Are you more likely to have fun, be successful and want to come back and play more when you are part of an organized force trying to accomplish a specific objective? Are you more likely to meet folks you want to fly with that way?
Do you think a newbie has more fun upping on his own, flying off, and getting shot down alone again and again by pilots that have hundreds and thousands of kills under their belts? (and then getting taunted by some prepubescent egomaniac on channel 200 afterwards?) I don't think so.
Thats my $.02 worth.
EagleDNY
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Originally posted by Donzo
The source of "that" statement was me. So what's your point?
That I understand why you like to milkrun. I thought my previous post made that quite clear or do I have to type slower for you too?
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
That I understand why you like to milkrun. I thought my previous post made that quite clear or do I have to type slower for you too?
ack-ack
I said:
Picking the path of least resistance....solid win the war tactic.
You replied:
considering the source of that statement, I can understand why you like to milkrun.
First of all your reply makes no sense:
"Considering the source of that statement" source=me, statement=mine
"I can understand why you like to milkrun"
You understand this how?
My statement indicates that I like to milkrun? How so?
It was a statement that pointed out a fact.
I don't see how it reflects what I do or don't like.
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By my take on this thread, one question seems to be: why do you bother taking undefended land? To which I respond, well why the hell don't you up and defend your land? Having been on the defense myself quite a bit, I know that there are a variety of ways for a smaller force to frustrate the attackers and ruin their day - goon hunting, troop porking, etc. In the midst of that you might even get some good A to A battles.
"... why the hell don't you up and defend your land?"
It's not always a question as to "why don't" you ... it has a lot to do with one side vastly outnumbers the other side and no matter how you try to defend, you just don't have the numbers to thwart the attack ... along with not having the "total" numbers, country-wide, to thwart all attacks.
Don't always assume that fields go un-defended because no one wants to ... they just physically can't.
"... smaller force to frustrate the attackers and ruin their day - goon hunting, troop porking, etc."
Yeah sounds like a load of fun ... I'd rather stick sharp pencils in my eye. Why is it ok for the horde to go around flying, bombing, etc ... enjoying their night, while those who are vastly outnumbered should find fun in running around try to find ALL the goons and pork ALL the troops.
There is an old story ....
Tom lives between Bill (on the right of him ) and Harry (on the left of him).
Bill's yard is a mess ... garbage all over the place ... it smells ... disgusting to look at. Tom can't even sit on his porch and enjoy it.
Tom visits Harry and tells Harry all his woes about Bill's yard.
Harry says to Bill ... "Looks OK from my porch".
Your post sounds like it came from Harry's mouth.
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Originally posted by smash
It seems there are a lot of really vocal people who really only want to see this thing as an air to air combat sim. A little back and forth is good, if nothing else to understand better what you are thinking.
I don't care if it's vehicles, air to ground, ground to air, air to air, whatever, as long as there is a good fight. What we have most of the time is a lopsided fight, or no fight at all. This kind of gameplay takes the "combat" out of "aerial combat".
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hey dan I want to thank you for the title of this thread. it reminded me of paul mccartney's sappy song "baby I'm amazed" it's been playing in my head for two or three days. I had just gotten it out, by replacing it with another sappy song eddie money's "I wanna go back" when I heard it on XM a few minutes ago so it's back in there again.
:D
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Originally posted by EagleDNY
OK - I'm a landgrabber, and for the record, yes, I'd like for my country to win the war every single time. Why you may ask? Is it the amazing 20 whole perk points, or the new map we get to see? No - it is just more interesting to me to get a coordinated attack going and fly with my buds than it is to up an uber plane, fight 1 vs 1, rinse, and repeat ad nauseam.
By my take on this thread, one question seems to be: why do you bother taking undefended land? To which I respond, well why the hell don't you up and defend your land? Having been on the defense myself quite a bit, I know that there are a variety of ways for a smaller force to frustrate the attackers and ruin their day - goon hunting, troop porking, etc. In the midst of that you might even get some good A to A battles.
Another complaint is that it is too difficult to stop the 15K jabos diving through the defenders and getting to target. OK - having been a jabo whose job it is to get through the defense and get my bombs on target, I shouldn't be expected to sit there like a pidgeon so you can have fun. Get up to 20K and dive down on me and maybe you'll stop me. I will grant you this - the radar ranges are too short to make an effective intercept by the time you see the attackers on radar. I have made postings to this effect and have suggested HT increase the base and CV radar ranges so that it would be easier for the defense to get up and intercept, and I have also suggested large strat radars covering a large area.
Another complaint seems to be about "hordes" attacking. Lets face it - squaddies usually like to fly together, so if they all are attacking a single target you are going to have a horde. The best battles I've seen on this game are the horde of attackers vs the horde of defenders, so if you like A to A, then join in the horde and have at it. If you don't have a horde, then most likely the perk point cost of a Tempest/262/Spit XIV/F4U4 (insert arena uber ride here) is going to be real low for you, so up one of those and have fun that way.
I would submit for the good of the game as a whole, the game should be oriented more towards hordes and landgrabbing / base capture / strat destruction. Why you may ask? Put yourself in the role of a complete newbie coming into the game - you can get up OK, but then what? Are you more likely to have fun, be successful and want to come back and play more when you are part of an organized force trying to accomplish a specific objective? Are you more likely to meet folks you want to fly with that way?
Do you think a newbie has more fun upping on his own, flying off, and getting shot down alone again and again by pilots that have hundreds and thousands of kills under their belts? (and then getting taunted by some prepubescent egomaniac on channel 200 afterwards?) I don't think so.
Thats my $.02 worth.
EagleDNY
My 2 cents in return.
You want to win the war every single time. That in itself says something. What do you win? You get to go back to the beginning and do it over. And against as little opposition as you can find. Again what's the point.
You mention newbies. At one time or another the air to air advocates were newbies too and got their backsides handed to them over and over and over again. After ten years of online flight sims I still get it handed to me. The challenge becomes to get it handed to me less.
If you never challenge yourself to get better, and hide in a horde working the path of least resistance, again what's the point?
People keep pointing to hanging with their buddies. What do you think the air to air guys do? Often times their buddies are the guys they've flown against again and again. There is a mutual respect based on the competition, not the lack therof.
My old AW squad was built from guys who got to know each other by meeting over the rivers and fighting each other. next thing you know we had a bunch of fairly good 38 drivers and we decided to form up and fly together once a week. Every other day of the week we were having at it and often shot each other down.
Again if there is no challenge, then all you really want is a flying chatroom, which is fine I guess, but maybe we neet HTC to give us the old AW style OCs for folks to sit and chat in. That was fun too at times.
And lets be clear on something. I agree that when mobs meet it's fun. But many folks avoid those fights with their horde and go after the field that has no one there. By the time the defenders can get moving, the VH is down, the field acks are dead as well as manned ack and if they up they get vulched. Not much of a way to defend.
But again, the answer I seem to be getting is 'we like to hang with our buddies and have fun, joking around". "We like to win the war". "Why would we attack a defended field when it's easier to take an undefended one." And what you seem to have added which is "It would take to long to get any good at air combat, so I'll hang with the horde where I can feel protected and feel a sense of accomplishment without working at it."
Did I miss anything?
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No, Gruppy, you haven't missed a thing.
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:rolleyes: (sigh!)
Here we go.....again.
(http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/1117/sl00atvsivent05lt2.jpg)
Years of this now.......(puke!)
"This is the Song That Doesn't End..."
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Originally posted by Guppy35
But again, the answer I seem to be getting is... "
Not to sound like a smart-aXX, Dan, but you did say you were looking for an answer. Doesn't sound like one that makes sense to you or that you agree with, but it is a series of answers. I wish I could come up with something that would satisfy you, but I'm out of ideas.
How 'bout you talk about what you would do with a mob, or any ideas you have for cultivating a mob on mob fight. I saw your map idea, and it looks great, so I know you've got some ideas.
I'll say again that I think if the survival of the goon was a realistic possibility, folks could have more success taking an opposed base. How could we accomplish that? Because, personally, I see that as the hinge pin for success taking a defended base...
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Guppy your just an old fug that doesn't have a clue. I'm the same way, I don't know what's fun. Crap it took me 2 1/2 days, 18 fuggin hours of flyin to get my first kill way back when.
I strutted around the house yellin YEEEEEEEAAAA !! With my lady hitting the topgun tape.
Since that time my goal has been to be the baddest muther in the valley. Everything else to me is a side show. I want to be at the bottom of the pile taken names. I want to be knee deep with my hair on fire.
It's what's drivin the passion as long as I have flown. Eight years and thousands of hours.
I still suck. But there's always that next sortie. Topgun is all setup with a push of a button. And when the wheels are sucked up this next sortie might be the one..
Nose prints on the moniter and sweaty flight sticks. Three minutes burned into the memory for years.
But like you, I don't realize what this game really has to offer.
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Originally posted by Eagler
it all started when they added gv's
for some reason it went from Aces High, a combat flight simulation game to a clone of WWII Online with an attempt to provide something for everyone regardless of their ability to play/complete in the game in its original format
Yeah , I agree Eagler. When all there was to do was Air combat , people strove to be really good at it. You spent ages trying to work out tactics and ways to fight each different plane and opponent, and how to tweak maximum performance out of your particular ride. You spend months in one type of plane until you learnt it's strengths and weaknesses inside /out.
Do people do that any more ?, I'm not so sure, seems to be only the rare few that really strive to be good at Air Combat, most seem happy to just fly around with a huge mob shooting anything that moves (or anything that doesnt move)
Maybe the new arenas wil bring some of that old stuff back.
Anyway , I flew a few sortiues in EW today and it was a lot funner than the MA had become.
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"snip"
Originally posted by Redd
Yeah , I agree Eagler. When all there was to do was Air combat , people strove to be really good at it. You spent ages trying to work out tactics and ways to fight each different plane and opponent, and how to tweak maximum performance out of your particular ride. You spend months in one type of plane until you learnt it's strengths and weaknesses inside /out.
Maybe the new arenas wil bring some of that old stuff back.
I think we are seein some of that old stuff already.
In this respect i really like what the change has done.
i.e The respective player types have found a kind of refuge in the different arenas.
"Birds of a feather" thingy
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Some of us are all about the war and winning it. In the old MA, you never knew what the day might bring. Maybe my side would have numbers and we would move ahead, or maybe the enemy will have a horde on and we'll lose base after base. When 'War fighters' login, they first study the map to see how their side is doing, and what needs to be accomplished strategically and or tactically to get their country ahead in the war, and keep them there.
In the old MA, if you saw a chance to grab a base you grabbed it. Thats one more base their horde will have to roll up before before they can start on your your home territory. Every base you push forward adds to the cushion between you and defeat. Their horde may have to to roll up 10 of their own bases back before they can start on the ones you most want to defend.
Then it changed. Suddenly we have three arenas. The first few days in the new system I did what I always do - set out to win the map. I have no way of knowing that there will only be 2 knights on for the next three days. I'm going under the assumption that the numbers will reverse in a few hours and those dweebs will be doing the same thing to us - so lets head them off now and make it alot harder for them to reset us if they get numbers.
Now do you understand? It's not about taking undefended bases vs fighting. It's about inexorably pushing forward towards a map reset, 24/7. In the old MA the one thing you could count on was that the numbers would change, and in two more hours the nature of the struggle would change.
When the nature of the struggle doesn't change, well, it sorta becomes needless milkrunning. Whatever you make of it, it is just what I was doing at the time. Once I figured that out, my incessant forays to town w/ an osty ceased. Maybe the guys just wants to see how many base captures he can get in one campaign. (In the old MA I had over 100 one campaign) When you figure that for every one of them, there were 4-5 others that I hammered the town or capped the base for someone elses capture, it means I helped take 500 - 600 bases in a months time. I know virtually everything there is to know about capturing a base. I've used every trick, ruse, method, aircraft, and vehicle to do it.
Yeah I get a warm fuzzy feeling when I hear some guy who's just figured out that an M16 kills towns faster than anything but lancasters. We've put a stopwatch on the festivities to see jsut how fast we can drop one w/ a given number of people.
Training ideas:
If you aren't someone who's already killed a few thousand towns using every weapon platform in the game, it's a good way to get some some execution and timing issues worked out. Sure you could also do this in 8 player, if you dont have more than 8 people in the excercise. Once new guys figure out the mechanics of a base capture, it takes alot of experience to gain 2 more levels of understanding - timing and player psychology. Those of us who've been at it awhile know how other side will react in certain situations. We also know how other squads in our own country will react. I've learned to work with 'furballers' not against them. I know how NOT to piss them off. I can appreciate what they're doing, and make my plans after considering their responses to a certain situation. If they wanna pick, vulch or furball, i make sure our town destruction squad comes in unseen if possible. We make sure we kill the VH first, not the fighter hangars. We put our ord and HE in the town, not the hangars. We give them M16's and osties to run to if they need it (just ask that they not come to town when the troops are inbound) We can cap a base with our gv's (for a time usually no longer than the flight time from the nearest adjacent enemy base for a P38 w/ bombs :) but we usually leave a hangar or runway untended so the air guys will get some action too. If theres enough of them, we don't touch the base except to kill the vh.
There's no need to quarrel over toolshedder vs furballer. I rarely anger anyone anymore with my activities. Sometimes it happens. If I get to a base with a plan in mind, and discover that there's an entirely different situatioon and psychology going on, I'm not going to turn around and go home. I'll try to make the best of the run.
Lets say there's 2 of us on in my squad. A big dar's coming out of an enemy base. I don't knwo whats up, i just logged on, and my squaddie is a bette rbomber than he is anything else. I might suggest "lets go to A19 a kill their fighter hangars then we'll use the 15 min to figure out what were going to do about these guys". So we fly over to A19 and as we're are setting up our runs we hear someone telling his crew to get the vh and deack. Hmmm - apparently someone else has a plan we hadn't considered. If it's a squad that actually knows what the heck they're doing and they are prepared to execute, I'll adjust my run and hit the town. If I see a loose collection of new guys insterspersed witha vet or two making it up as they go, I'll go ahead and drop those hangars rather than try to work our plan into theirs.
Ok - my epistle has grown beyond your original question. so ill end it here. I suspect some of the milrunning will subside in the coming days as most guys figure out it's not leading anywhere. There are some legitimate reasons for the milkrun (i.e. answer the question, how many t34's is optimum for killing a town w/ HE in less than 5 minutes) Just as in a furball, everyone sees the same thing from a different angle or perspective. The guy you're yelling at may have just logged on 5 min ago and has no idea what you and you're guys have been doing for the last 2 hours.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
and in all seriousness I'm asking this.
What is the fun in rolling up undefended fields and 'winning the reset"?
I went into midwar tonite and see the beta 2 map is up. Numbers are their typical self the last week or so. Bish 38, Rooks 21 and Knits 10.
Undefended bases are dropping like flies.
Boom. The "war is won" and the map is going to change.
I got exactly one flight in on that map in there.
Why do people want to fight no one?
And I really want to know the appeal of it. I don't want to start a word war. I understand people want different things from the game, but I really don't get the point.
My squad came on last night and went MW to group up. After checking all the arenas, the most imbalanced was MW. We decided to move to bish seeing how the numbers were way imbalanced (30 knits, 34 rook. 10 bish).
Also the bish bases were down to 10 with the other 2 countries around 26 each, so we started on trying to get things back on an even keel. Note: before changing, we made sure that our numbers moving did not make another imbalance. It ended up close in numbers with the bish being the lowest by 2.
We started on the east side of the map to regain some bases back from rookland, but after taking 4 bases in about an hour and half, we looked at the numbers again and the rooks went from 34 to the low side of 15.
We try to change countries to not try to help out the low side, but also to get some fights going. But when the numbers fluctuate so much and so fast, it's inevitable that the major swings can't be stopped. As much as it might be needed, having the squad changing sides every hour or so just isn't feesible.
With one main arena, you got to know your fellow countrymen over time and knew how they flew, who and who not you could count on and their capabilities as a flyer. With the new setup, changing side to try and help gameplay, the advantage of knowing who you are flying with is limited. Especially since there are a few that don't see you as a "true" bish, rook, or knit and the support is even less (notice the word few).
That in itself makes those in your squad even more important to fly together. And unless the AK's split into separate countries to have the fun of fighting each other (and we do), switching around again an hour or 2 later just start causing problems.
Solution, long or short term? Don't know..... Am hoping it will all sort itself out in the wash. I hope.............
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Originally posted by Guppy35
snip
And I really want to know the appeal of it. I don't want to start a word war. I understand people want different things from the game, but I really don't get the point.
There is no point, that's the point :)
culero (now read my avatard ;))
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Did I miss anything?
I think you are missing quite a bit, and you assume quite a bit as well.
Originally posted by Guppy35
You want to win the war every single time. That in itself says something. What do you win? You get to go back to the beginning and do it over. And against as little opposition as you can find. Again what's the point.
What we get is a new map, a new position, and a new set of strategic and tactical problems to solve - and if you read my post, you noted that I like the large horde on horde battle, so I wouldn't assume I'm looking "for as little opposition as I can find". I'm perfectly happy with the Patton doctrine - grab your enemy by the nose and kick him in the A..
I could ask you whats the point of FT setups? Three equidistant bases, a furball area into which you fly, get into a battle where you either kill or get killed before the next batch of guys flies over and cherry picks you before the next batch picks them. Good ACM practice? Sure, but whats the point. It seems like endless football practice without actually having a gameday.
Originally posted by Guppy35
You mention newbies. At one time or another the air to air advocates were newbies too and got their backsides handed to them over and over and over again. After ten years of online flight sims I still get it handed to me. The challenge becomes to get it handed to me less.
Agree we were all newbies once, and that the challenge to get better is always there. But better at what is the question too. I've been flying sims since the old AW days myself, and I'd like to get better at bombing, torpedo bombing, ship and tank gunnery, mission planning, etc. as well as ACM.
Originally posted by Guppy35
If you never challenge yourself to get better, and hide in a horde working the path of least resistance, again what's the point?
Another assumption. When the C-Hawks took up 5 groups of B17s with no escort and blasted A6 last night, outnumbered 140 Bish to 100 Knights, were we hiding in a horde? We fought our way in, lost 3 bombers on the way, but hit our target and took the pressure off P7 which was captured shortly thereafter. We didn't get much ACM practice in our B17s, but we had fun and accomplished the mission we set for ourselves. Thats our point.
Originally posted by Guppy35
People keep pointing to hanging with their buddies. What do you think the air to air guys do? Often times their buddies are the guys they've flown against again and again. There is a mutual respect based on the competition, not the lack therof.
I see a lot of that "mutual respect" on channel 200. If you want to fly against your buds again and again, more power to you. Have fun. There's plenty of arena space and 8-player mode for you to have fun in. You pay your $15, use the time as you see fit. Perhaps your air to air buds might even consider winging up and going to defend something against an incoming attack...
Originally posted by Guppy35
Again if there is no challenge, then all you really want is a flying chatroom, which is fine I guess, but maybe we neet HTC to give us the old AW style OCs for folks to sit and chat in. That was fun too at times.
We've got plenty of challenges to deal with, since there are landgrabbers from two other countries trying to conquer our sacred homeland. I do find it more interesting to chat with my squaddies than to listen to the endless squabbling on 200 tho, so I am thankful for the chat channel.
Originally posted by Guppy35
And lets be clear on something. I agree that when mobs meet it's fun. But many folks avoid those fights with their horde and go after the field that has no one there. By the time the defenders can get moving, the VH is down, the field acks are dead as well as manned ack and if they up they get vulched. Not much of a way to defend.
But again, the answer I seem to be getting is 'we like to hang with our buddies and have fun, joking around". "We like to win the war". "Why would we attack a defended field when it's easier to take an undefended one." And what you seem to have added which is "It would take to long to get any good at air combat, so I'll hang with the horde where I can feel protected and feel a sense of accomplishment without working at it."
Again, I do concur that the attackers have the advantage because their is insufficent warning time to get a defense up to altitude before the attackers are over the field. I think we'd have larger air battles if the radar ranges were adjusted so that the defenders had time to get up and intercept.
If someone is "avoiding" combat, I wouldn't automatically assume they are without ACM skill either. If they are heavy, trying to penetrate a defensive screen to take down a VH, or kill a CV, or pork troops & ords, they have a pretty good reason for not wanting to mix it up with the La-Las & Spits before they get to target.
With all the big bad fighter jocks I see talking trash on channel 200, I'd have thought that it would be impossible for them to get through to target anyway. I'm not going to assume someone isn't any good at air combat because he doesn't want to start furballing in a heavy fighter. If you want to make that assumption, feel free to follow him in and get an easy kill when he pulls out.
EagleDNY
$.02
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
considering the source of that statement, I can understand why you like to milkrun.
ack-ack
:rolleyes:
why blame the "problem" on someone else?
if you dont like/dont want/cant defend, DONT blame the attacker for taking undefended bases. Its YOUR sides fault, not the attackers. They are "milkrunning" because of your lack of defence, and taking advantage of it.
its much like the furballers moaning about lack of furballs, yet they wont up and defend hordes. A undefended horde, is a horde. A defence against a horde can be a furball.
waaaaaaaahhhhhhh they porked my fuel cos i didnt defend it.. HTC please remove fuel porking.......... :rolleyes:
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So far the initial post of Guppy's and that of hub's "poker analogy" are the only valid posts in all of this bickering.
After over 4 years of playing this GAME, I no longer care about milkrunners, score potatos, etc. They NEED this to make up for something missing in their lives. Nothing will change, nothing.
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no matter what I read about the taking of fields and how it is such great gameplay...
all I ever see is milkrunning and gangbanging and runway diving... I have never seen two large groups of players that claim to be into field capture and defense ever meet each other.
the only time I ever see groups meeting each other it is furballers meeting and fighting and it is milkrunners who ruin the fight... they hit the FH or the CV when the fight has been going on for a long time or... a bunch of em come to "help" and overbalance the numbers so that they can vultch a capped field.
The new arenas seem to allow furballers the ability to find another place to fight.
Again... I don't care if the milkrunners take every undefended field they can and I don't care if they "win the war"... I don't care if they feel more loyalty to a cartoon chesspiece than they do to their family...
the pretense of it does kinda disgust me tho.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by lazs2
the pretense of it does kinda disgust me tho.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's [/B]
so because we are having fun playing the game ourway, you hate us?
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Overlag it's just another Lazzi
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Originally posted by Overlag
:rolleyes:
why blame the "problem" on someone else?
Because I am not the one that is doing all they can to avoid a fight by hopping around to the next undefended base. But again, I can see where some of those that are lacking in the fighter abilities or want to pad their score (and don't want a death to ruin their score) will see the enticement in attacking an undefended base. It's sad though, makes for a boring time and honestly, what challenge is there in attacking an undefended base and doing all you can do to avoid a fight? Might as well play MS flight sim if you're that timid.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Because I am not the one that is doing all they can to avoid a fight by hopping around to the next undefended base. But again, I can see where some of those that are lacking in the fighter abilities or want to pad their score (and don't want a death to ruin their score) will see the enticement in attacking an undefended base. It's sad though, makes for a boring time and honestly, what challenge is there in attacking an undefended base and doing all you can do to avoid a fight? Might as well play MS flight sim if you're that timid.
ack-ack
this coming from a player who has high altitude lame game play named after him, hence the akakosphere. step down from your soap box sir everyone here knows your game.
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LOL the only ones that whine about my flying seem to be the ones I shoot down. Maybe if you and the ones that whine weren't so timid or sucked so bad maybe you'd shoot me down once in awhile Storchita.
And in case you forget...those duels we had were coalt affairs and the last time I ran into you in the MA...you had the alt and you still died. No, it's not the case of me flying at 15k or 20k but rather those that whine sucking.
ack-ack
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a2a vs a2building dichotomy. I spend more time in the air in a fighter plane than anything else. I do consider myself a 'war fighter'. I'll bring whatever's needed to the party, and hit whatever needs hitting. Why is it necessary to try and categorize me or anyone else as being one or the other? I share your sentiments about the hordes and the milkruns. I too get a little perturbed by alot of the nonsense I see around me. You want to know what my biggest pet peeve is? It's the people who will fly to an unused airfield, deack it, then circle waiting for someone to take off. You know the result. The other day I got that treatment and the retard kept saluting me (apparently wanted everyone to know that I wouldn't return his/her salute) (Like im gonna salute a pick/vulch tard for a job well done)
I suspect, that if asked, that tard would identify themselves as an a2a player. What a joke.
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Originally posted by lazs2
no matter what I read about the taking of fields and how it is such great gameplay...
all I ever see is milkrunning and gangbanging and runway diving... I have never seen two large groups of players that claim to be into field capture and defense ever meet each other.
/B]
Well I see alot of the same things, but if you we'rent so involved in some silly furball somewhere you'd see alot of things you haven't seen yet, because some of us are very involved in the fight, nut don't recall seeing you around any of them. :)
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Originally posted by shiningpathb4me
a2a vs a2building dichotomy. I spend more time in the air in a fighter plane than anything else. I do consider myself a 'war fighter'. I'll bring whatever's needed to the party, and hit whatever needs hitting. Why is it necessary to try and categorize me or anyone else as being one or the other? I share your sentiments about the hordes and the milkruns. I too get a little perturbed by alot of the nonsense I see around me. You want to know what my biggest pet peeve is? It's the people who will fly to an unused airfield, deack it, then circle waiting for someone to take off. You know the result. The other day I got that treatment and the retard kept saluting me (apparently wanted everyone to know that I wouldn't return his/her salute) (Like im gonna salute a pick/vulch tard for a job well done)
I suspect, that if asked, that tard would identify themselves as an a2a player. What a joke.
yes it is rather pathetic. after flying in an arena for awhile you get to know who these people are. people can claim to be "a2a" all they want but their actions may prove otherwise. I feel in a lot of ways the same may be said for some strat guys. if we compare taking a base (for strat guys) against killing an airplane (furballers), then how you do it is more important than how many.
to be perfectly clear, i have nothing against strat guys. i think they should fully enjoy dropping bombs, taking bases, and everything else that is involved. i think it's important to note that there are dweebs on both sides of the issue. i think your point is quite on the mark, but that guy you describe could just as easily say he is a strat guy suppressing the field. it is funny though if he was expecting a back after that:)
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shining... that's fine... I have never seen you in the game either but then... I avoid the whordes milkrunning... no fun to fly with and no fun to fly against.
Oh... a "fight" isn't 8 guys chasing one lone red plane or 6 late war planes all runway diving to try to kill the red plane taking off or landing...
It also isn't killing toolsheds and outhouses.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Shining hit it on the head for the most part... Why must we be classified as one or the other? I think allot of people are a mix and then you have those extreamests on the far end of either side.
Lazs I would say and I think you have to agree you are one of the extreamests on the furball side, I can't think of a name of a tool shed extreamest but we know they are there. Then you have people like me and I think I can speak for most if not all of the BOP's when I say they like both. We have no big problem with a furball and can enjoy such and we like to capture bases and thing of that sort to help our virtual country win the war or attempt to stop our side being reset.
Take last night in the LWA, Nits were hitting A10 like a freekin swarm of locusts ( Nits) and a good chunk of the bish population including most of our squad that was on, was there defending it any way we could. It was a HUGE furball with base taking at the heart of it. They constantly had our hangers down but we kept coming off of our CV.
We porked troops around A10 and I even had to dive down from a 20K troop porking run in a P-51 when a Nit CV started taking pot shots at me just NW of 10 and I look down and see a goon sitting on it. Bombed it, got the goon and reported location while running my lil butt out of the ack and took some parts off of a spit on the way out.
Heck I even took 20k B-17's over once to kill the hangers at 9 in an attempt to give 10 a bit of a break but even that didnt work. Those Nits reallly wanted 10 lol. I went up in a Tempest and got my engine shot out by a passing B-24 in 2 pings (Good shot) I took a Hog up trying to keep the bombers off of our CV and there went my wing lol..
They got 10 finally and someone on Nits saluted bish for the good base defence.
And while all this was happening I'll bet there was some guy some where vulching an undefended field or something of the like. Or on the other end the furballers doing what they do best on furball island. But who ever they were they must have been having fun doing what they were doing, not that I think it is the most fun thing to do but what ever floats your boat I guess.
Any way I would just like for people to stop lumping everyone into 2 piles (furballers) here and (land grabbers) here because there is so much more diversity in our community.
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Shining hit it on the head for the most part and you drove it home Flayd!
Well said :aok
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flayed... you may see me at a base defense... I assure you that I am not there because the field is important to me in the least.
I am there if there is a fight and will remain there until it is capped or the FH's are down... maybe longer... I may up an IL2 and kill a few more...
I think there are a goodly number on that are not really defending or attacking so much as they are just looking for good fights.
But... what does it matter? it could work out... you guys see me killing attackers or defenders... by your way of looking at it... I am "helping" My way of looking at it I am having a good time.. Point being, there are ways for the two groups to function together.
Where the animosity comes in is when the furballers are chastised for not bringing bombs or not going over to help this or that field or.... when the attackers kill the FH's or the CV where a good fight is happening.
Now, you must admit.. that when this was brought up in the past.... the toolshedders all admitted that they were doing it and basicaly said "tough titty". They certainly didn't care about anthing but their gameplay.
you would also have to admit that for the most part... the whorde does not seek out the enemy whorde but instead.... milkruns.
Those were the types of behavior that caused so much of the rift and will continue to do so as long as they are employed.
In EW yesterday... the enemy CV was killed at a really good fight.. I simply announced that "this fight is over gonna go find another" and... I actualy could.. there were several small fights with people just having fun.
I will never understand why the toolshedders will come to a fight that they had nothing to do with simply to kill it.... especialy when there are so many other places they could go..
It really does stink of "griefing" and you really can't expect people to be happy with a griefer.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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since we're hitting things on the head here today, flayed may I hit you on the head?
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Originally posted by lazs2
But... what does it matter? it could work out... you guys see me killing attackers or defenders... by your way of looking at it... I am "helping" My way of looking at it I am having a good time.. Point being, there are ways for the two groups to function together.
Where the animosity comes in is when the furballers are chastised for not bringing bombs or not going over to help this or that field or.... when the attackers kill the FH's or the CV where a good fight is happening.
any toolshed mission should have fighters without eggs to do the dogfighting. This is what frustrates me, as that furballers COULD join in, like they did in the old days, and help base captures. instead they whine the map hasnt got FT's.
Furballers would come in first, kill any defenders, then move on to next bases once the toolsheders have done there work... Moving on, would be to the next base which might supply the base thats under attack....
This is why festaMA sorta works out very well, because if you are attacking one base, the very next base is less than 10miles away, and defenders will up there. The furballers can have there fight infront of the main attack force. However right now, the main attack force rarely has fighter cover, so they resort to porking hangers, or milkrunning, simply because they havnt got a fully balanced attack.
Originally posted by lazs2
Now, you must admit.. that when this was brought up in the past.... the toolshedders all admitted that they were doing it and basicaly said "tough titty". They certainly didn't care about anthing but their gameplay.
Do you care about toolsheders gameplay? and if you say you do you are lying because its NEVER come across in any of your posts.
Originally posted by lazs2
you would also have to admit that for the most part... the whorde does not seek out the enemy whorde but instead.... milkruns.
Those were the types of behavior that caused so much of the rift and will continue to do so as long as they are employed.
because hardcore furballers wont do anything against it. Bases without defence deserve to be milkrunn'ed
Originally posted by lazs2
In EW yesterday... the enemy CV was killed at a really good fight.. I simply announced that "this fight is over gonna go find another" and... I actualy could.. there were several small fights with people just having fun.
I will never understand why the toolshedders will come to a fight that they had nothing to do with simply to kill it.... especialy when there are so many other places they could go..
It really does stink of "griefing" and you really can't expect people to be happy with a griefer.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
because i bet that CV was nearing there base, and the CV driver's was aiming to capture the field. Isnt that the point of the game? You moan and moan about milkrunners, but when a base has a successful defence, you moan that the toolsheders ruined the fight? No they didnt they successfully defended the base. you are whining about BOTH sides of the arguement. You dont want the defence of the base killing the cv, but you dont want people milkrunning either.
what do you want?
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any toolshed mission should have fighters without eggs to do the dogfighting. This is what frustrates me, as that furballers COULD join in, like they did in the old days, and help base captures. instead they whine the map hasnt got FT's.
Furballers would come in first, kill any defenders, then move on to next bases once the toolsheders have done there work... Moving on, would be to the next base which might supply the base thats under attack....
I have gone on missions or followed the horde on occasion and the fighter escort is, for all intents and purposes ... score-potato vulchers ... they care not for the fight ... just how many kills that they can get before the defenders can get wheels up ... and if the defenders do get wheels up, most of these l33t fighters get their bellybutton handed to 'em.
No thanks ... I really dont care to stand in the Deli line waiting for my turn to get a kill.
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I know it's fun to insult BKs, but does anyone care to offer some insight into why the eutopian base capture war that you speak so reverently of does not exist, and why, with fighting for captures being such a magnificent challenge, people instead continue to horde and milkrun?
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I have gone on missions or followed the horde on occasion and the fighter escort is, for all intents and purposes ... score-potato vulchers ... they care not for the fight ... just how many kills that they can get before the defenders can get wheels up ... and if the defenders do get wheels up, most of these l33t fighters get their bellybutton handed to 'em.
No thanks ... I really dont care to stand in the Deli line waiting for my turn to get a kill.
Another excellent post. So damn true Slap.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I know it's fun to insult BKs, but does anyone care to offer some insight into why the eutopian base capture war that you speak so reverently of does not exist, and why, with fighting for captures being such a magnificent challenge, people instead continue to horde and milkrun?
...why....it is the structure of war, that's why!
- oldman (geez, some people just don't pay attention)
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Originally posted by Oldman731
...why....it is the structure of war, that's why!
- oldman (geez, some people just don't pay attention)
This ISN'T war.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
This ISN'T war.
And Oldman wasn't being sarcastic, not even a little bit :)
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Originally posted by Widewing
They won't.... My solution would be that when ENY restriction gets to 10, all ground targets double in hardness (for all countries). At an ENY restriction of 20, hardness doubles again. Limited to flying nearly useless aircraft would be exacerbated by needing 12,000 lbs to kill a hanger or 1,000 lbs to kill one building in a town.
This would not limit capturing bases if the numbers were reasonably even, but it would make base captures all but impossible when the numbers were like I saw them in the MW arena at 8 PM eastern tonight: Bish 31 Knit 4 Rook 22. Certainly, the horde would have to return and rearm, even if they had decent aircraft to begin with.
This might result in some side switching to even out the numbers. If not, let them toil in futility.....
My regards,
Widewing
As the Guinness guys say- Brilliant! That would certainly help.
-MI-
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HT has taken away what has been fun for many years and changes it to this rediculous format of "3" arenas.
Today i log in and see that first arena has 50ppl, 2nd has 80 and 3rd is full and they add another lw friggin arena that has 20ppl................. wth kind of mentality is this?????????? are you thinking properly?
WTG HT
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Originally posted by 50cals
HT has taken away what has been fun for many years and changes it to this rediculous format of "3" arenas.
Today i log in and see that first arena has 50ppl, 2nd has 80 and 3rd is full and they add another lw friggin arena that has 20ppl................. wth kind of mentality is this?????????? are you thinking properly?
WTG HT
You've been reading "How to Influence People and Win Friends", eh?
:lol :aok :rofl
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HT is thinking as clearly as anyone from Texas can after consuming the amount of Scotch Whiskey we've sent him. Welcome to the new cartoon reality, sponsored in part by....
++The Blue Knights++.
:)
In case you missed it, the "are freaking stupid?!?!?!11?!" tactic has already been tried, and it didn't do much either. Scotch talks, BS walks. Trust.
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overlag... again... you assume that the furballers are interested in if the field is taken or not. As slap said... fighter cover for you guys is no fighter action at all.
I only care if the fight is good. If the field is taken it means nothing to me.
flayed explained what he thought was good gameplay... getting his squad organized to even up field capture and overall numbers.
An arena where the numbers are 20-100 and 110 and there are two good fights going on of 10-20 guys on each side meeting somewhere in the middle ground is infinetly better than 75 75 and 75 with 30 guys from each country attacking and capping fields with no FH's and maybe a couple of IL2's trying to get their wheels up or 10 flaks...
Good gameplay is local parity not overlall parity. good gameplay can happen if one country is down to 4 fields. Bad gameplay can happen if one squad from each country is hitting lightly defended fields and the overall numbers are even.
you admited that your strat was to drop the FH's.... now how does that promote a good fight? How does killing the radar make for good fights?
I see it all the time.. field is undamaged except for radar. How can you have good fights with no radar except by accident?
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
HT is thinking as clearly as anyone from Texas can after consuming the amount of Scotch Whiskey we've sent him. Welcome to the new cartoon reality, sponsored in part by....
++The Blue Knights++.
:)
In case you missed it, the "are freaking stupid?!?!?!11?!" tactic has already been tried, and it didn't do much either. Scotch talks, BS walks. Trust.
I <3 BKs
just wait until I start stalking you all now. :)
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Originally posted by lazs2
overlag... again... you assume that the furballers are interested in if the field is taken or not. As slap said... fighter cover for you guys is no fighter action at all.
I only care if the fight is good. If the field is taken it means nothing to me.
i didnt say you cared... but the problem is, people dont defend anymore, so fights dont really happen when people are trying to take bases
Originally posted by lazs2
you admited that your strat was to drop the FH's.... now how does that promote a good fight? How does killing the radar make for good fights?
I see it all the time.. field is undamaged except for radar. How can you have good fights with no radar except by accident?
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
i didnt admit that my "strat" was to drop FH's, i said something along the lines that "base capture guys will have to drop hangers if they dont have figher cover", It is also the reason why fights rarely happen, because furballers wont "attack", nor defend.
Ive never dropped FH at field*. Ive dropped BH when attacking with CV, as well as VH
*thats infact a lie, i remember the "good ole days" where we (3 dif squads) dropped hangers at 3 different fields, then went on to fight outside 2 other close bases, while strat guys took the defenceless bases.
edit: it also worries me that you need radar for a good fight????? :huh
edit2: you also seem to think im a strat guy? well thats wrong too ;)
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Originally posted by Guppy35
What is the fun in rolling up undefended fields and 'winning the reset"?
Dan,
In all honesty I do think that its "the only way they know" how to play the game.
Scenario.
New player comes to AH.
Dweeb: "Hey guys whats the goal of this game?"
Semi Vet: "To win the map."
Dweeb: "Ok how can I help?"
Semi Vet: "We are attacking A43 come here."
Dweeb: "Ok."
Tbh the community is getting worse and worse at taking care of dweebs. Partially because the game is growing much faster then before and partially because alot of vets have their head so far up the whaaaambulance that they forget whats important.
For me AH is "the joy of the fight" and I think its the same for you.
I know I can say in all honesty that since new years Ive spread this message to exactly ZERO dweebs.
I dont know about you but have you been any better at educating the dweebs then Ive been?
I seriously think that the only way to avoid the hoard is to teach pilots to enjoy fights and enjoy dieing. If they arnt tought to enjoy fighting and dieing they will game the game.
Tex
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overlag.. not picking on you because, in fact, I don't know how you play but..
The reason no one defends anymore is because... of the mega squads with so many suicide porkers. There is no point in "defending" a field as the attackers come in hot with huge waves of high alt plane... the good ones take out the ack (the radar is usually allready out) and then take out anyone who is lifting from the field. any kills are from someone in a high alt foxhole waiting for a risk free kill... the FH's are then dropped.
radar... with far fields.. the bar means nothing. for groups of 2 or 3... rellying on the bar is foolish.. it will never be anything like what you thought when you eventualy do get there. The dot dar promotes good fights... if you see even bars and your red dots half way between the fields and your guys on the way.... goooooood fight-0-coming.
A good fight is also when a CV is in the area and the planes all meet somewhere in between and... face it.. the CV doesn't launch many monsters... the fastest planes are F4U's and they don't have time to get to alt or speed... good fights.
In the above two cases... good fights insue... maybe it is new guys... maybe griefers but.... there is allways someone who wants to kill the FH's or the CV's in this case... there are allready plenty of fields being whorded and... plenty of fields but... they come to the only good fights to kill the action.
That is why the arena split is so nice... we have been able to make some bad behavior go away in the smaller populations... the new guys will learn faster too. a griefer stands out and gets a heap of scorn... more attention than they want.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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yeah, i suppose they are all true points..... sure you can defend a field, but theres always one con higher than you. even if you are at 30k.
im "fine" with the split now. We still have our "MA" and there are now two secondary arena's that are worth the visit when i want something different. New players will be able to learn faster in the two smaller arena's, while the "MA" will continue for now as the way it is. As newer players migrate outwards to MA, the balance of milkrunners, vs the true fighter guys will shift hopefully in the right direction.
one of the lamest things ive seen since coming back is the Alt f4/auger guys... You engauge them in a fight, but then they just disapear, or fly into the ground.... These guys are probably the milk runners, but since im catching them BEFORE the fields they just quit before i can kill them. Same with buff's. Bomb the field, then bailout??!?!?! wtf? :mad:
and yes, i dont think ive ever met you in AH... ive been slapped a few times by some of your squadies though. I do a bit of everything in this game, Fighters (although being a luftweenie i dont TnB much), bombers, be it strat or furballing i try and do it all so i keep the fun going. If one style of gameplay is boring me today, ill do the other.
bit of a lone ranger atm because my squad (ripsnort, swoop, cav etc) has all retired....:(