Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Stoney74 on September 29, 2006, 08:48:44 AM
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Apparently, according to others, I am a skilless noob if I don't learn how to mix it up in a P47. So, I'm looking for the best way to mop up zeros, hurris, and spit 16's in a co-alt, co-e Jug. Any advantage in altitude or speed is apparently a crutch that retards my develpment as a player in the game...
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You might be surprised at what a p47 can do.
However, you are allowed to use "no skill" tactics when flying against zeros, hurris, and spit16s, all of which take no skill to fly, also.
When mixing it up aginst craft that take a bit of skill to fly, you can learn moves that take a bit of skill to pull off, but in the current MA crowd I don't think that day will ever come, so relax :P
P.S. While tongue-in-cheek, this post does have a grain of truth. Don't try turn fighting with spit16s, hurricanes, and zeros. The P47 just doesn't turn that well. Please note it does turn fight, but not against the "cream of the crop" that has already been listed here.
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jugs can be great fun in a dogfight, just keep a decent level of airspeed in turns, use one or two notches of flaps, and ignore the whines coming from hyppocritical idiots flying dweeby, skilless rides ;)
if you ever want to mess about in the TA though, i could give you a hand at using that big bomber of yours in a turnfight :) it's all about the energy and your SA :)
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I respect anyone that can fly a jug with skill, because I know I sure as heck can't.
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main thing i try to do in a 47 is keep my energy up. and if I'm going to slow down to take a shot I make sure to make it. the 47 turns pretty well at the begining of the fight because it blows its energy really well, it just doens't like sustained turns and is probably the slowest accelerating plane in the game, so if your going to slow down to take a shot, make sure you make it count
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that fat hottie also hides E very well, just like a F4U does.
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Contact Mowaca on this one. He's a great P47 pilot, he isn't on a whole lot but I think he might be willing to teach you. He is the only P47 that makes my spit 8 or p51 work for the kill :P
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Thanks for the input gentlemen. I apologize in a way for the first post, as I know it is foolish to turn fight a zero in a jug. The thing that creased me was that there's a certain group of players out there that call what was described to me as good jug tactics, picking--bore n zoom--etc. It was recommended that I should just keep getting my butt shot off trying to learn how to do it, until I learned how. I think that's a pretty ridiculous idea. I would quote Soda's write up on the jug, but I think everyone that has posted here is in agreement with me...
I always considered the P-47 to be something of a "more difficult" plane to fight with in the MA, so I thought being smart was part of the skill set required to be successful with it. Apparently there are those out there that disagree.
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Well, if you get into a BNZ fight with 4 turnfighters, and you end up killing all 4 and returning to base, I wonder who the foolish ones are then? :cool:
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The Jug11 can hold its own against any spit, and the hurries, unless their flown by the top pilots in the game. The zeke, well just b & z that bad boy.
Balsy
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Originally posted by Balsy
The Jug11 can hold its own against any spit, and the hurries, unless their flown by the top pilots in the game. The zeke, well just b & z that bad boy.
Balsy
was flying against someone in the H2H rooms me in a P47D11 or D25 them in an A6m5 zeke, they wanted to flat turn and try to merge Nose on everytime, Ikept my E up, and used the vertical, roping them each time, nailing them as they stalled it and floundered trying to climb up.......
if you use oblique turns when flying against a superior turning plane, you can sometimes "outturn" them even though they are in the better turning plane.......
and yes BnZ will always work if performed correctly and you stay persistent about the attack, don't let the prey have a long time to set up for your next attack, keep them on their toes and always attack from different angles, don't be a 1 trick pony show......
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Originally posted by Krypto
He is the only P47 that makes my spit 8 or p51 work for the kill :P
then i got a few humiliations waiting for you in DA :)
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Stoney I'm not sure if "there's a certain group of players" refers to me and what I wrote you in the other thread. If so all I was stating is that in order to get as good as YUCCA and Blu you have to fight like them. Zooming in and out of a fight is fine in a P47. But if you want to learn to fly like the guys mentioned above, you gotta slow down and get into it. It doesn't mean you have to do it in the MA, you can go to the TA with a trainer and practice dogfighting in that beast. IMO staying fast and never learning how to really push a plane to it's edge will take you a lot longer time to really get a feel for the bird in a dogfight. By practicing(AKA dying) over and over you get more and more comforitable controlling the plane once you get to the stalling limits and even beyond. Basically, there's nothing wrong with coming in high and keeping your speed up, but it's always nice to be confident when you see that high con above you. It just takes practice and time.
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NEVER Bat, we had fun 3 duels I took all of em home :D And if a jug 11 can hold its own against any spit unless its the top pilot omg. Medal please?
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Originally posted by SuperDud
Stoney I'm not sure if "there's a certain group of players" refers to me and what I wrote you in the other thread. If so all I was stating is that in order to get as good as YUCCA and Blu you have to fight like them. Zooming in and out of a fight is fine in a P47. But if you want to learn to fly like the guys mentioned above, you gotta slow down and get into it. It doesn't mean you have to do it in the MA, you can go to the TA with a trainer and practice dogfighting in that beast. IMO staying fast and never learning how to really push a plane to it's edge will take you a lot longer time to really get a feel for the bird in a dogfight. By practicing(AKA dying) over and over you get more and more comforitable controlling the plane once you get to the stalling limits and even beyond. Basically, there's nothing wrong with coming in high and keeping your speed up, but it's always nice to be confident when you see that high con above you. It just takes practice and time.
True SuperDud, I would like to add that once your low and slow in the MA, keep your SA up because there is always some one ready to bounce on you for a kill in the middle of a 1v1.
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Yeah SD, you were a large part of the motivation for this post. That's why I made the apology on my 2nd post there--I was creased when I wrote it. I guess I should specifically apologize to you.
PM sent...
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Originally posted by Krypto
NEVER Bat, we had fun 3 duels I took all of em home :D And if a jug 11 can hold its own against any spit unless its the top pilot omg. Medal please?
quit flattering yourself.:p A jug is an excellent fighter you just can't get used to fly it like a spit. Use angles in a dogfight and roll a lot for if you keep canging direction they have to do so then get them into a scissor fight and that is where the jug can do well is low speed scissor. Me and YUCCA had a great fight in the KOTH for the round win. Of course I lost but what you HAVE to do is burn the opponents E otherwise he can just BnZ ya to death.
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The JUG can't really "turn fight" as in going around in circles trying to bite the other guy's ass. It can knife fight decently enough using more linear manuvers - in that I mean that you generaly advance along a line, all scissors and rolling manuvers. Speed management is everything and the faster the fight starts the better you are.
The low speed "nose up" is weak in all jugs and especially the D11. In vertical scissors you'll feel this once the speeds drop below 180 mph and the other guys starts to drop on you from above in every cycle.
The D40 with improved WEP and the paddle blade prop is the better one and this is why I consider it the best knife fighter of the jugs (better than the N). You HAVE to conserve your WEP. Loose WEP on the N and you are the slowest, worst climbing of all jugs.
Flat scissors is also great as long as the speed is high. You'll burn E like mad which may allow you to suprise opponents that underestimate you, but if you don't kill them after two moves you can't keep it up.
Rolling scissors is where you want to be, especially when the speed drops. steep climbs are not needed and you don't wallow like in flat scissors. Superb roll and stability even when slow, makes the jugs good at this.
The higher the fight is, your condition quickly improves. As of ~15k you outclimb P51s on WEP. At 20k you outclimb them even without it. Take it to 30k... and you'll find nothing to fight...
Always, your greatest weapon is the disrespect of your opponent. Fly La7 or Spit 16 and they run away from you, fly a JUG and they carelessly attack you.
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Dont forget the Jug is prob THE dive master. Ive used this to good effect out-diving zekes and niks etc and then extend a it a bit and zoom climb. After a power-dive the jugs have a sky-rocket zoom.
Another thing i found usefull (and it def dont always work, but is worth it when you got no other choice) is again dive LOTS pre-merge and hope your opponent tries taking a diving shot at ya, and get REAL aggressive lead-turn set up. Pop flaps as needed. Alot of people in slower turn-n-burn planes dont expect the aggressiveness or the high-speed performance advantage the jug holds, and if all goes to plan you catch them well off-guard and on their 6 blastin. Its a gamble move.
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Originally posted by Krypto
NEVER Bat, we had fun 3 duels I took all of em home :D And if a jug 11 can hold its own against any spit unless its the top pilot omg. Medal please?
3 fights with who? mowacca?
mowacca is very good in the jug for sure, ive fought him before.
honestly though krypto man, try takin someone like yucca, balsy, blukitty to DA and they will show you a true 47 turn fight.
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Originally posted by Stoney74
Apparently, according to others, I am a skilless noob if I don't learn how to mix it up in a P47. So, I'm looking for the best way to mop up zeros, hurris, and spit 16's in a co-alt, co-e Jug. Any advantage in altitude or speed is apparently a crutch that retards my develpment as a player in the game...
The very first thing to do is make sure you can look around EASILY, I devoted a button on my JS (next to the hat) to look up, using the hat works much better now.. adding an up view to existing hat views allows me to rarely lose sight of anyone.
My flaps are mapped to the JS too.
Constant Flap / thottle adjustments are a must, a Spit can turn well naturally, a Jug can turn with anything with some encouragement.. try dropping a flap or two during a turn / loop.. if you feel the JS shake feather the trottle / adjust flaps as needed.
Cutting throttle and dropping flaps when its unexpected works like a charm, dudes will pass right by you just as you go full WEP / No flaps and put guns on them. Booming down on someone, then slowing as you get close will also suprise people.
I usually take 50% gas w/1 DT, I lose the DT as soon as I see a red guy... easy way to have plenty of gas, and lose weight.
It takes lots of practice to get the flaps / throttle thing down. Think of it as if you're driving a car in a demolition derby, you'll need to adjust speed as you approach (throttle), use the parking brake (flaps) to skid, floor it right after slamming on the brakes.. all those things.
I have a spare JS on the floor I use like a gas pedal, that and force feedback instantly improved my score.... I can feel my way through a turn while tapping flaps up/down feathering throttle to maintain speed.
You'll get eaten alive if you dart around loaded with gas at full throttle trying to turn without flaps, the Jug just wont roll like that with more nimble planes.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
3 fights with who? mowacca?
mowacca is very good in the jug for sure, ive fought him before.
honestly though krypto man, try takin someone like yucca, balsy, blukitty to DA and they will show you a true 47 turn fight.
Faught yucca 1v1 in koth at the start, balsy i might have faught. Blu kitty i avoided at the end of a war trrying to RTB
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Yeah, Balsy taught me a lot about respecting a jug when I'm flying a spit 8. I think he nailed me about 4 times in a row by getting me to follow on his 6 while he was doing high yo yos. By his third yo yo, I was wallowing behind him, he flipped that thing in about a 10 yard window (insert gratuitous "YOU CHEAT! NO JUG CAN DO THAT! :huh lol.) and 8 50's were firing right into my cockpit. It made me want to run out and get my own jug. Oh, blukitty does things in a jug that I'm positive violate at least 8 laws of nature. I figured out how to counter Balsy (at least the yo yo thing,) but Blukitty pwns me every dang time. Of course, that could be more of an indication of my pilot skills rather that Blukitty's.
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I figured out how to counter Balsy (at least the yo yo thing,
I see this quite a bit , never knew what to call it , thanks :) .
I just fly with them {doing yo yo's too ) till they burn off their E :) works like a charm most times . Ya if you go and try to cut their corner you E is shot and then you are by him , hehe , and no I don't fly P47's .
me <-- comfort type of guy
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I just went vertical and let him yo yo below me, rather than trying to stay on his 6 and cut the corners. As he came up nice and slow, I put some cannons on his 47. I'm sure that co e, co alt, he'll take me back to school.
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Krypto YUCCA was drunk durin KOTH.:cool:
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
if you feel the JS shake feather the trottle
Cutting throttle and dropping flaps when its unexpected works like a charm, dudes will pass right by you just as you go full WEP / No flaps and put guns on them. Booming down on someone, then slowing as you get close will also suprise people.
You'll get eaten alive if you dart around loaded with gas at full throttle trying to turn without flaps, the Jug just wont roll like that with more nimble planes. [/B]
Do you know about corner turning speed? Below a certain speed (somewhere around two hundred and fifty miles per hour), the more power you have the better you turn. Even above that speed, more power will help you sustain your tight turn for longer. Power gives you speed and propwash. Speed gives you air over the wing, as does propwash. Both increase lift. Lift is what makes you turn and climb. I never throttle back in any airplane in combat; instead I perform yo-yos, raising my nose above the horizon to trade speed for altitude so that I can get it back again when I need it by lowering my nose below the horizon again. Throttling back simply throws away energy, wasting it. You can trade energy for an angle, but you can almost always trade energy for an angle and altitude.
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Benny,
I believe what hes refering too is getting a guns on solution by forcing an overshoot.
Suprisingly I havent been able to force an overshoot with the JUG with the throttle firewalled.
Balsy
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Do you know about corner turning speed? Below a certain speed (somewhere around two hundred and fifty miles per hour), the more power you have the better you turn.
The corner speed relates to the best turning speed in terms of turn rate. The limiting factor is the 6G blackout and so it means the max speed at which you can pull 6G. This is not sustainable but yes, the more power you have the slower it decays.
BUT, turn rate is often less important than turn radius, for which you want to go slow. This is why you chop throttle for cutting a corner or trying to turn inside someone. The geomery will buy you many more angles for a short duration than a 2 deg/sec turn rate advantage.
The need for more power below a certain speed relates to the back side of the power curve. Below this speed induced drag increase rapidly and dominated over the viscous drag which decreases (keeping a constant bank angle). This speed would be near the default auto-climb speed set for your plane. Below this point, you'd really feal when a plane is underpowered as you start to wallow. In a P47 you do not want to be there in any turning manuvers. Stability and roll is still good so you can force a linear overshoot, but if this is a turning manuver and you didn't get the angles on the other guy, this usually means it is hopeless. This is where spit 16s just pull up way over your head and drop down guns blazing.
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Originally posted by bozon
BUT, turn rate is often less important than turn radius, for which you want to go slow. This is why you chop throttle for cutting a corner or trying to turn inside someone. The geomery will buy you many more angles for a short duration than a 2 deg/sec turn rate advantage.
[/B]
Yes, slow is better for turn radius. I tell that the best way to slow down, however, is not to throttle back but to pull harder on the stick. If you're already at maximum angle of attack and you still need to slow down, then raise the nose above the horizon. It's called a yo-yo turn (not the same as a yo-yo) and it's what real fighter pilots do when they need to bleed a little speed (except for F-16 pilots, because the F-16 is to jet fighters what the Spitfire is to propeller fighters).
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Yes, slow is better for turn radius. I tell that the best way to slow down, however, is not to throttle back but to pull harder on the stick. If you're already at maximum angle of attack and you still need to slow down, then raise the nose above the horizon. It's called a yo-yo turn (not the same as a yo-yo) and it's what real fighter pilots do when they need to bleed a little speed (except for F-16 pilots, because the F-16 is to jet fighters what the Spitfire is to propeller fighters).
I work my throttle as needed. There are times when a reduction in power is needed to remain in position, or gain position. Throttle is a control, just like the stick and rudder pedals. There are no absolutes, just as there are no two fights that are identical. If you are in a low-level fight in a heavy fighter like the Jug or P-38, pulling off power is required or the extra thrust so increases altitude loss that flying into the ground is a genuine issue.
Pulling harder on the stick is not always the right thing to do. You can quickly get into an accelerated stall and resultant snap-spin or snap-roll.
Schatzi and I just flew about 10-15 duels in the P-47D-25. P-47s are not agile fighters, in the traditional sense. Some maneuvers benefit the Jug better than others, such as nose low turns to retain or even build E, enabling you to hide E and convert it to a positional advantage.
As Bozon mentioned, there are two primary aspects of turn performance that can be exploited one way or another.
Typical Co-E, Co-alt matchups as examples-
Spitfire Mk.V vs the Bf 109F-4: The Spit turns smaller circles, but the 109F has a better turn rate and superior vertical performance. If the 109 can avoid trouble initially, it can prevail by combining turn rate and yo-yos to gain angles. Getting to that point can be a bit problematic for many pilots.
Spitfire Mk.XVI vs F4U-1D: No other fast fighters offer better instantaneous turn rate combined with E bleed and very tight turn radius than the F4Us. With equal pilots, the F4U-1D will get around on the merge quicker than the Spit16. While the Spit offers a better turn rate, its disadvantage in turn radius can lead to the F4U getting a guns solution early in a fight. Like the 109F-4, it must somehow survive long enough to use its vertical performance and turn rate to get control of the fight.
P-47s are very stable fighters that can forgive much. At high speeds it's extremely formidable, but even at low speeds it can catch enemy pilots flatfooted with its excellent handling. As someone else mentioned, a low fuel P-47-40 (with light ammo- 267 rds/gun) can give most fighters a real difficult time, even down low. At high alts, it's the class of the plane set.
My regards,
Widewing
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Bah,
Balsey beats me in 47 every time...for now. :)
Even having me mentioned in here is a nice ego lift, and I'd be more than willing to offer help to anyone on Jug flying and fighting. I'm on in the mid-day mountain time a bit.
But seriously, Balsey, Shevy, many others are better than I :). I only have a few old tricks that I keep milking. :D
Cheers~
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I ran into Yucca once, he was in a jug and I had an FM2. I figured I had him and tried to bounce him. He danced that thing around like it was a freekin ballerina. Didn't know it was him till I went down in flames. There were two other guys with me, he owned them too. That dude can fly a 47.
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screw the p47 fly a 109