Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Yeager on September 29, 2006, 01:16:32 PM
-
Here is the story of the death of another US Soldier in Iraq
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1540856,00.html?cnn=yes
My brother keeps talking to me about "sunk cost" in Iraq. "Sunk Cost" being that point at which you no longer reap a benifit from the expense.
When I read this story it occured to me again, have we reached the point of sunk cost in Iraq? Are we wasting our time and the best of our youth or do we press forward with renewed focus and determination?
-
librule!
-
I suppose that if you have put yourself firmly on one side of the fence in the matter then valid points can be made to support it whatever side it is. I doubt that story will change the minds of those that have it firmly made up.
Im not american so I dont have a say (read vote) in the matter so it really doesnt matter what I think.
If I did have a vote then you all know what id think anyway so ill save the bandwith for those who has a vote.
That was alot of words that basicly said nothing so my share of the worlds bandwith has been expended for tonight.
Have a nice day Mr. Internet.
-
Whats done is done, we are flowing down this river. Whether we eventually manage to sustain some sense of democracy in Iraq or pullout completely by 09. The one thing that still puzzles me to this day is why Hussein wasn't a more powerful force of good for all of Iraq rather than just being a grand thug. He could have done so much good for all Iraq yet he subjugated, starved, gassed and enslaved so many millions of his own people. He could have moderated and eventually become like Jordan, Egypt....or are the Iraqis a special breed of arabs, not capable of living in peace? or is it the religion of Islam, as believed in by the masses of Iraqis, that is causing such gross volumes of blood letting? Granted the 140,000 US military personel being square in the middle of Iraq is now fully recognised as a more provocative presence than a stabilizing one, even if they were withdrawn today, does anyone honestly think the violance would subside, let alone end?
-
because he was a monster, an insane monster with insane sons running the show which needed to go
every loss of life is terrible. a cop and his k-9 were shot 20 miles up the road yesterday. I am sure his family and friends are just as sad as the soldiers in your story. should they not confront criminals on the highway anymore cause it is dangerous/deadly? should they stop pulling over cars for fear one might be a cheekbones and the animal start shooting?
There is not any choice but to stay the course in Iraq least the cheekboness there declare a victory which would over shadow the heezob celebration dances in the ruins of Lebanon. To think/act otherwise will lead to our demise, guaranteed
-
If America left it would explode into full civil war.
The problem is that this will happen whenever America leaves. I belive that staying will only delay the inevetable bloodbath. I seriously doubt that the Iraqi security forces can be trained and equipped to an even higher standard than the US and British troops that are having problems keeping the peace as it is.
If the Iraqi security forces had the support of the entire population they would have a chanse, but they dont.
If the current government gets too strong and well equipped then you risk having replaced one oppressive leadership with another, only this time with American training and equipment at its hands.
Iraq needs to shape its own destiny from within.
-
Originally posted by Nilsen
Iraq needs to shape its own destiny from within.
don't you think that is what is happening now?
-
Originally posted by Eagler
don't you think that is what is happening now?
In a way it is, but with outside forces trying to control what is happening and who is supported.
-
retreat..retreat...teh enemy has won ...all our bases is belong to aly kadabra :rolleyes:
-
Freedom requires sacrifice
-
Indeed Ramzey.
Should not those who wants the freedom then go and get it? Should others decide what kind of freedom you get and how to get it?
Would it be proper for any nation.. (lets say France for the fun of it) decide Americas freedom and who controls it, or should americans decide thru a process from within her own borders?
-
Originally posted by Eagler
don't you think that is what is happening now?
how did we become such a proud nation?
we kicked out the oppressive "regime"
by doing it "for" them we have allowed them to put the responsibility in our hands rather than thiers.
-
I have no doubt that the Bush daughters, Jenna and Barbara, will soon be stepping up to the plate in uniform to help shoulder the burden and sacrifices (such as the one made by this fine young woman and her family), just as their poppa has asked on numerous times of the rest of the country in this proclaimed equivalent to WW2.
No folks, we can’t appease and win this struggle, and apparently we cannot shop our way out of it either at this point (as was requested post 9/11) -- we must stay the course. IMO that requires activating the draft, and not continuing this BS backdoor draft of the active and reserve components through stoploss, etc. and multiple semi-annual tours.
Nope, a real Uncle Sam Needs You with no deferments for college or marriage type of draft. No easy out with the Guard or Reserves this time either, given their active involvement. If this is WW3, and a just cause, then we need the man and womanpower to see it through. If not, WTF are we bothering?
Charon
-
he one thing that still puzzles me to this day is why Hussein wasn't a more powerful force of good for all of Iraq rather than just being a grand thug. He could have done so much good for all Iraq yet he subjugated, starved, gassed and enslaved so many millions of his own people.
Because as sad as it is, his methods are the only thing those people respect.
No "freedom/respect/rigths etc" works in ME. Bigger gun and less scruples works every time.
That's why W's plan for "democracy in the ME" was always just a pipe dream. Those people see our values as a sign of weakness.
-
Originally posted by fd ski
Because as sad as it is, his methods are the only thing those people respect.
No "freedom/respect/rigths etc" works in ME. Bigger gun and less scruples works every time.
That's why W's plan for "democracy in the ME" was always just a pipe dream. Those people see our values as a sign of weakness.
I think its more like the system they know rather than respect. Sure.. some of them and mainly the men i guess have some strong religious opinion that dictates what sort of rule they want. If they had known and been acustomed to real "freedom" and democracy then things had been different. If you push it on them they will behave just like a kid that is forced to do something. He may want to deep down but doesnt do it just because it forced on him.
-
(http://www.west-point.org/users/usma2005/61938/Emily05.jpg)
-
Truely sad
-
Changing someones mind/beliefs with weapons dont work, maybe a few days long but thats all, otherwise you have to stay there almost forever...
-
The Iraq situation is so FUBAR, heres what I think we (the U.S.) should do-
Bring in alot of military scientists and analysts. Let them devise new tactics and strategies for combatting insurgency. See which ones work, which don't. Document them in a training guide.
-
If America left it would explode into full civil war.
War? Yes. Civil War? No. Civil War implies that it will be iraqi's vs. iraqi's. Do you honestly believe it's the iraqi's who are fighting us?
But I am starting to agree with yeager, not for the same reasons though. I believe the costs to bring freedom the Iraq are worth it. However, I am beginning to think that Muslims are incapable of freedom.
The only way I'll accept withdraw on the account of us being wrong now, is if we drop 5 MOABS on each major (non-kurdish) town on the way out.
-
Ya know, mixed emotions from me on this one.
I fought in the first one and as a consequence of an AT-7 or an RPG round hitting the side of our AVF, i'm left 60% disabled, hearing gone in my left ear,, left eye is almost shot, I have a piece of sharpnel still lodged above it that they don't want to remove, My left ankle was broken into ( According to the doc) "cookie dough" I have numerous plates and screws in there and I'm on 3 different meds that I have to take every 4 hours for numerous other things such as PTSD, so I do have some knowledge of what people are saying and what a guy can go through over there.
to me (and every other guy i knew over there) we left the job unfinished, we pulled out when we could have had that despot and his cronies no problem.
I'll never forgive Bush senior for pulling the plug when we could have finished it and we would not have been killed and maimed for nothing.
In a way i'm glad that we got Saddam and in another I'm sad that it wasn't done the first time round. I'm sad becuase there's probably a kid right now who was the same age as me, waking up to a life that never should have been his to live.
I know I don't agree politically with a lot of the guys on here and that's fair enough, but one thing we can all agree on is that there has to be a line when enough is enough and I think we are fast approaching that, latest poll shows that 70% of Iraqis want us out.
I say fine, I say %%%% of and kill each other for all I care.
Hawco
-
I'll never forgive Bush senior for pulling the plug when we could have finished it and we would not have been killed and maimed for nothing.
It wasn't Bush Sr. who pulled the plug, but the UN. Just as the forces cleared out Kuwait, they turned straight for baghdad. The UN passed a resolution, and Bush supported the resolution at a time when the UN was still sort of important and had meaning. Or at least was thought to be important and thought to have meaning.
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
War? Yes. Civil War? No. Civil War implies that it will be iraqi's vs. iraqi's. Do you honestly believe it's the iraqi's who are fighting us?
Absolutely. Can you imagine a forgien Govt invading & occupying your country, reducing it to rubble, and screwing up the things that used to make life in Iraq tolerable?
A good friend is with the 8th Marines, in his e-mails he tells me this is what they hear/ see all the time...
Before the Americans came to save Iraq they had power, running water, flush toilets, the sewers didnt flow into the streets, some Saddam loyalist even collected the trash, 60+ people were not showing up dead in the streets. Maybe a few of your family or friends were killed by US fire, or picked up by the still brutal Iraqi police backed with US Muscle.
If I was a young kid witnessing that, I'd sure as hell pick up a gun and blow some fools up... they ruined my quality of life, killed my friends and turned my neighborhood into war zone... and their leader gets on TV saying all is well.
Its the younger kids that were far removed from Saddam's politics who are the angriest, as they see it their life has been literally been ruined by the arrival of US troops... and from where they stand I don't blame them.
20 years from now, if these kids are still alive & free, MAYBE they'll look back and see it was a good idea after all.. but for now they are pissed and fighting back.
ed
I forgot to mention the best part, the Iraqi Govt is doing nothing for the people, the average Iraqi is left to hang... but the terrorists?, they are handing out lots of Iranian $$, feeding families, collecting garbage.. loyality comes cheaper when you're hungry.
-
Can you imagine a forgien Govt invading & occupying your country, reducing it to rubble, and screwing up the things that used to make life in Iraq tolerable?
These ****ups place religion over country. Any shi'ite is cool with them, as long as they are killing Sunnis.
-
Here's my take on Iraq.
If we lose there....and by lose I mean do not make the country stable then we lose a major battle in the war on terror.
jihadis will then branch out to fight us and the rest of the world on other fronts to include main st. USA
-
Originally posted by lasersailor184
It wasn't Bush Sr. who pulled the plug, but the UN. Just as the forces cleared out Kuwait, they turned straight for baghdad. The UN passed a resolution, and Bush supported the resolution at a time when the UN was still sort of important and had meaning. Or at least was thought to be important and thought to have meaning.
It was bush senoir who told the marsh arabs near Basra to rise up in revolt, ceaefire came and they were %%%%D, Saddam near enough killed them all, that wasn't the UN.
-
If we can't beat em there, won't be able to beat em anywhere else either
-
Originally posted by x0847Marine
Before the Americans came to save Iraq they had power, running water, flush toilets, the sewers didnt flow into the streets, some Saddam loyalist even collected the trash, 60+ people were not showing up dead in the streets. Maybe a few of your family or friends were killed by US fire, or picked up by the still brutal Iraqi police backed with US Muscle.
yes,life was wonderful under the benevolent saddam and his two idiot sons. :rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by john9001
yes,life was wonderful under the benevolent saddam and his two idiot sons. :rolleyes:
What you fail to understand and what was stated before the offensive is, Saddam's dictatorship was a requirement for a functional government in Iraq. There were an abundance of fears of civil war after the invasion (even on this UBB) which now proved to be dead on the money.
Nobody denies that Saddam was a cruel dictator and committing a lot of crimes in his time. But if you're saying that life in current Iraq is better than back then - boy you're either brainwashed good or smoking crack. Invading Iraq was the best gift your country could give after having defeated Osama in Afghanistan. His plan of attrition now works to the full not in Afghanistan, but in Iraq.
-
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Saddam's dictatorship was a requirement for a functional government in Iraq.
so you support evil dictators as long as they have a functional government? now you sound like a NEO-CON.
hitler would have loved you, also the leaders of Iran, north Korea, Sudan, somalia, Syria, etc.
-
The stability offered by any government should not come at the price of 400,000 dead men, women, and children.
-
Originally posted by Shuckins
The stability offered by any government should not come at the price of 400,000 dead men, women, and children.
Bingo!
How many has it been since the invasion/occupation, and how many will there be in the comming decades?
-
nilsen, i think he was refering to how many saddam killed.
-
Originally posted by john9001
nilsen, i think he was refering to how many saddam killed.
I know.
-
Nilsen, most of the deaths in Iraq in the last three years can be laid squarely at the feet of Baathist extremists and non-Iraqi terrorists. The victims have been mainly Shi'ite Muslims, who had been the targets of Saddam's death squads prior to the U.S. invasion.
In that respect...nothing has changed. At least now, the Shi'ites and Kurds have a chance to exercise some control over the government, instead of being the victims of it. In addition, the new government is assuming control of the newly activated army divisions, which will begin to relieve U.S. forces of the onerous task of maintaining security and hunting down the terrorists. Of the ten newly created army units, two a month will be activated in the coming months.
All grousing aside, we are on track to begin drawing down our forces in Iraq. Undoubtedly, we will have to maintain a presence there for some time. But if the new government survives and assumes control of it's own security, the future of the "insurgency" is bleak indeed.