Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Hardware and Software => Topic started by: Krusty on September 29, 2006, 01:32:50 PM
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Well, I resurrected THIS thread here (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=168690), but decided I'd post something here in the hardware and software forum instead.
I'm thinking of doing a long-term project, and building my own throttle unit. As I posted just recently in the thread above, I was looking for the link Gianlupo put out so long ago. I did a google search and found this:
http://www.simpits.org/articles/throttle_quad/throtquad.html
But I don't know if it's the same link. It got saved because it's helpful, though!
What I'd like to know (and maybe Roscoroo knows this) is how do you get a USB connection instead of an analog connection. For sure, I'll be doing testing in analog (it's easier to test, just wire it up and go), but eventually I'll want a USB connector on this project.
I don't have any parts or plans yet, just an urge to give it a shot. I think I know what I want, but I'm wondering how many axis you can have on a single USB device, because analog is limited to 4 axis.
Also if you have any resources on where (in the U.S.) to order pots and trigger buttons from, please let me know! Thanks!
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There's some things out there for folks making full-fledged simpits. One is a $40 USB board that has up to 8 axis and many buttons.
http://www.betainnovations.com/hardware/plasma.html
I'm not sure how much it's worth that if I'm just using it for 1 throttle unit with 4-6 axis in it.
EDIT:
New question: What's the difference between a rotary and an axis?
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Krusty,
I've done several projects like this. I like to use the electronics out of Logitech sticks as you can pick them up really cheap and though the sticks themselves are complete crap, the circuit boards and drivers are very good. In my latest project:
GamePort to USB conversion project (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=188380)
I used a Logitech Extreme 3D stick which has four axes (roll, pitch, throttle, rudder) and lots of buttons. You could even put two "sticks" in your throttle and that will give you the eight axes you're looking for.
-hb
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Interesting. I always thought logitech had crappy circuits. Or is it not even using those, just using the USB port + wires + etc?
EDIT: I read your write-up. Interesting way of doing it. But you have to be sure that the pots were the only crappy thing in the logitech system. I'm not so sure. I'll keep it in mind.
My question is, though, what's the difference between a rotary and an axis? Like say I want to make a trim wheel for elevator, can I just put that on an axis input? Or does it go on a different input?
Also, are you limited to the number of axis that the stick had to begin with, or can you shoehorn more in on the same circuits?
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Krusty,
if the logicjunk boards will work ok with normal 100 ohm type pots, ill send ya a couple to play with if you want .
Ive got at least 6 dead wingmans laying around . there pots are junk but there boards are fine .
what you do need is a spare working stick befor ya start doing mods.
At least go get ya a cheap saitec st290 pro ...20-29 bucks .
for a usb setup you have to use a usb board in the stick . you can go from usb down to gameport, but not gamepost to usb unless the circuit board is designed for that .. the interupt timing/packets are different.
its easiest to use a board from another stick, then it is to start from scratch and go with custom aftermarket curcuit boards (there pricey ..you can buy a full ch setup by the time you purchase all this stuff and figure in time.)
Some Reading material befor ya get started . some of this is analog some are digital/usb
http://www.epanorama.net/documents/joystick/pc_joystick.html (http://www.epanorama.net/documents/joystick/pc_joystick.html)
http://www.technick.net/public/code/cp_dpage.php?aiocp_dp=pinconjoy_pc_game (http://www.technick.net/public/code/cp_dpage.php?aiocp_dp=pinconjoy_pc_game)
http://www.epanorama.net/documents/joystick/index.html (http://www.epanorama.net/documents/joystick/index.html)
This page will give ya a idea what it takes to build from scratch .
http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds?$=main/howto/mind.htm (http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds?$=main/howto/mind.htm)
My best advice is dont rush the project ... gather the parts /study / and take your time . trace all your curcuits ,pin outs, ect and make your own schematic .
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I assure you that LogiCrap stuff works just fine without their so called "pots." [Those pots win the prize as the crappiest pots I have EVER seen!] I have been running a hybrid CH ForceFX / Logitech FF 3D whatever in a similar way the Pro Pedals are done. It works perfectly. I certainly would not be afraid to use the PCBs. After all, no moving parts, etc. If it works the first time, it should work every time. What's crappy about Logitech other than the pots, is their gimbals, switch housings, springs, etc. And that stuff is totally crappy!
Here is that project:
FrankenForce project (http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3390)
One reason you might want to look at something a little better though (eg. Saitek Evo) is to get better programming software. Logitech software is pretty minimal. Saitek appears a good bit better. I use Logitech stuff because I can pick up a Logitech stick for less than $10.
As for you question about rotaries vs axes. A controller only has two types of interface controls: buttons and axes. [At least I don't know of any other kind] Therefore, my educated guess as to what people mean by that is a rotary would be an axis that is controlled by a knob of some sort (something you have to turn) whereas an "axis" is just the basic analog pot which could be a "slider", "rotary", "lever", etc.
Can you put a trim wheel on ANY axis? Absolutely. A pot is a pot. Some pots are rotaries (twist them) and some are sliders (you guessed it: you slide it). Other than that, it's just a device that produces a variable resistance to the circuit.
As for adding axes. If you can figure out a way, I want to be the first to find out. I think I can safely say NO to that question. I have never seen a joystick with more that four axes. Of course, the CH Throttle Quadrant has six axes but you will pay $150 for one of those. As you pointed out, people make USB controller boards used by pit makers that support various configurations. That is probably the best bet if you really want to go beyond four axes.
Hope that gives you more decision power.
-hb
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I'm digging the lego throttle idea. I've got probably a thousand legos from 10-15 years ago. Some superglue on each piece and it's never going to come apart. The only problem I can see is that there'd be no resistance on the throttle arms.
So I might not do that. I want the throttle arm to stay put when I move it. I might just end up using a piece of wood with some "L" brackets screwed into it. I'm thinking 4 throttle arms (one for each axis), and maybe mapping 2 to throttles, 1 to RPM, and 1 to elevator, or 1 throttle, 1 rpm, and 2 different trims.
Hrm... can you map "zoom" to an axis? Not sure how effective that would be, but it would be cool
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Originally posted by Krusty
I'm digging the lego throttle idea. I've got probably a thousand legos from 10-15 years ago. Some superglue on each piece and it's never going to come apart. The only problem I can see is that there'd be no resistance on the throttle arms.
So I might not do that. I want the throttle arm to stay put when I move it. I might just end up using a piece of wood with some "L" brackets screwed into it. I'm thinking 4 throttle arms (one for each axis), and maybe mapping 2 to throttles, 1 to RPM, and 1 to elevator, or 1 throttle, 1 rpm, and 2 different trims.
Hrm... can you map "zoom" to an axis? Not sure how effective that would be, but it would be cool
:lol make the box throttl lol ;)
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I was trying to avoid the ugly look of the box, but I might have to grin and bear it.
On a side note: I got some CH Pedals (non-PRO, non-USB) and I had a question:
If, after the throttle, I wanted to wire these to USB, how would I do that? There's 2 different axis (one for each pedal) but somehow it is supposed to act as 1? How do these normally work? Do they average the inputs? If 1 is fully deflected, I'm assuming you get full deflection. If both are fully deflected, I'm guessing you get neutral. If both are partially deflected I'm guessing they'd cancel each other out partially. I just don't know, though.
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its one axis on the pedal for the rudder .
This may in a single pot or a dual pot set up (in the dual pot they are married together and actually act like a single pot)
the toe brake models have a second axis for those . but in AH its either on or off
type signal used .
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How will it work with 2 pots on 1 axis, if the pots are going in different directions? Each pedal has a pot, but can both be depressed at the same time
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Maybe this would be of interest. Plenty of programable buttons and levers.
http://www.chproducts.com/retail/t_tq_twin.html (http://www.chproducts.com/retail/t_tq_twin.html)
Gunner
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Yes, Gunner, that's the inspiration, but if I had $200 lying around I'd be forced to spend it on bills instead :P
CH is out because it costs too much. Always has, always will.
Hence my idea to build my own (total will probably be around $40 or so)
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Krusty,
Nothing wrong with building one. It sounds like a fun project. I like the idea of using a used stick with new pots. The hard part may be making the hardware, at least for me it would be. I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
Gunner
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My main mystery is going to be how I make the throttles move with a bit of friction. I want them to move freely, but to stay where I put them (that is, I don't want to place the throttle at 60% and have gravity pull it to 100%).
On those 100k ohm pots, what's the resistance like? If you set it, does it stay there? Or is it loose like a combo lock?
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Originally posted by Krusty
My main mystery is going to be how I make the throttles move with a bit of friction. I want them to move freely, but to stay where I put them (that is, I don't want to place the throttle at 60% and have gravity pull it to 100%).
On those 100k ohm pots, what's the resistance like? If you set it, does it stay there? Or is it loose like a combo lock?
depends on how to mount the throttle.
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Hypothetically, I was thinking (in my head) of mounting the pot sideways, and putting the lever arm directly on the end of the pot itself. That way the pot is mounted to the base and the arm directly moves the signal.
I'm just wondering if, in this setup, the arm would stay where I put it, or if I need to devise some convoluted friction lock or something on the motion of the lever arm.
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Krusty
Instead of mounting the throttle lever directly on the pot. Consider useing say a rod or bolt as your mount point. This can be made sturdy enough to take a fair amount of use without causing problems. Also you can build a tensioning device into it with a fiber washer & a nut. That would let you set how much resistance you want on the arms. Then mount the pot arm to the end of the rod,
There are a lot of different kind of mechanical linkages that you can link the lever arms to the pot with.
I've dreamed for years of an affordable 4,2,1 throttle control.
(would give me the option for true independant 4 engine control, or lock 2 together for twin engine control, or lock all 4 for single engine.)
Ideally of course with RPM to match.
For a true 4 quadrant control I think Hall sensors would be the easiest.
Although it would be doable with pots as well.
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What are hall sensors?
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Hall Effect Sensors. They use magnetic field to sense the position and no contact like the variable resistor in a pot. They are very expensive and if you connect them up wrong, you can fry them. I payed about $150 for the 2 in my joystick.
They are very accurate, and with no contacts, they can last for a very long time. In my opinion, they are overkill in a throttle. Not to say I might not get one for my throttle :)
They also have no... zero mechanical resistance.
If your interested, I have a few pics here:
Gunner's Cugar Page (http://webpages.charter.net/davegun/Cougar.htm)
Gunner
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Hrm... interesting, but since the idea is budget and functionality, I think I'll leave those for a later time and place. :cool:
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Okay as I mentioned I've got these non-PRO, non-USB pedals from CH. I've opened them up and there's 1 pot in each pedal. However I'm guessing it's all supposed to be one axis. I've tried tracing the wires, but they stop at the swith that toggles between "plane" and "car".
What does this switch do to the circuit?? I don't have a voltmeter with me or I'd test 'em to find out.
The plan is to practice by getting these pedals to work as a stand-alone rather than a serial addition to a joystick. There's 3 wires in 1 pedal pot, and 2 wires in another, and all of them disappear into the switch. However, 4 different wires come out and go into the cord to the gameport.
If I wanted to clip the wires, and skip the switch, how do you use 2 pots on 1 line? You connect the +5 to one, the signal from that to the +5 (in) on the next, and the signal on that back out to the gameport, right?
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Krusty,
I have not looked into how they are wired, but I do have the non-pro, gameport (non-usb) CH pedals. There are two pots in these.
In "plane" mode, they act as one axis. Holding down one pedal makes that axis move to full deflection in that direction, but holding down both pedals will center the axis. So they cancel each other out in a way.
In "car mode, they act like two axis. One for gas one for brake.
If your going to use these for a dual throttle, you would want to put them in "car" mode. You could leave the switch in place, but mount it inside the case. Or if you remove the switch, just hard wire it as if it were switched in car mode.
I am not sure how you plan to input this to the computer. Are you going to use the gameport? If you want to use USB, you may be best to use an old USB stick, or you would need a gameport to USB adapter. I found some at Radio Shack a few months back. They were not too expensive, I think around $10.
Gunner
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Krusty,
Check this out!
http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds?$=main/howto/throt.htm
There may be some good info in here even if you don't raid some kids toybox :)
Gunner
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Gunner, for now I'm just practicing by getting these working as rudder pedals. I want them as 1 axis only.
That's a pretty cool write-up. I'm thinking of something similar (with parts available). As a warm-up for practicing my control-building skills, I wanted to work on the pedals and get them working. Practice, if you will.
That site gets bookmarked with the rest!
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Krusty i have the same pedals, and i use a little rockfire usb/gameport converter. I connect my CH non-pro analog peds to that (NO other stick is on the y connector plug). Set the converter to mode 2 (i think). XP thinks my pedals are a generic 2 axis 4 button joystick with rudder pedals. I map the the rudder axis in AH to the rudders - works perfectly, no spiking, no nothing :D
You can pick up converters dirt cheap.
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Yes, that's one idea :)
I could do that, but I think I'll try to wire them myself, because doing my own throttle is going to take some wiring skills, and I'm rusty. Heck I don't even own a soldering iron (but I used to use 'em a lot at one job).
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Unless you have a joystick or Midi port, this will not work. The joystick port can take the raw analog signal from the pots, then inside your PC, covert it to a digital signal.
USB transfers information digitaly. This means you need an analog to digital converter to use the USB port. The joystick to USB converters do this for you. You will not be able to wire it yourself unless you plan to do some fancy electronics building.
Radio Shack sells these for about 8 bucks. As Spatula was saying, it has several modes for the basic joysticks. This should work well with the CH rudders.
Gunner
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I actually have an analog stick now, and a gameport back panel for my motherboard as well as on my SB Audigy, so I've got 2.
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I'm having a problem or three with these CH analog pedals. I'm only interested in the rudder pedal option, not the "car" pedal option (this splits each foot into its own axis). I've got 2 pots:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1163655588_rudder1.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/858_1163655600_rudder2.jpg)
Okay, the switch is what's screwing me up. I've got wires that I can't track, here. I have only 4 wires that go out to the actual game port, but because there's the car/plane switch, CH muddled things up for me. From the gameport I have red, blue, yellow, and pink. Here's what I've got figured out.
When on "Plane":
The red and the blue wires bypass the switch, run straight in from the gameport, and to the respective pots. Red comes from pin 11 ("Joystick 2 X axis") to the middle prong on the left pot. Blue runs from pin 1 ("+5V") and into the middle prong of the right pot. The outside brown wire on the left pot becomes the black wire going into the right pot.
When on "Car":
Blue and brown share the same current. Red still goes to pin 11, but white goes to pin13 ("Joystick 2 Y axis") thus giving 2 outputs, X and Y.
Now, on "Plane" mode, I want to set these pedals up to run as-is, without a joystick running through them. What is the bare minimum required for just a 2-axis joystick (I'll be ignoring the second axis)?
I've got +5V and "Joystick 2 X axis". Do I need to ground it, or is that optional? Most of the websites that talk about the gameport pins talk about adding as many axes as possible and using all buttons, and doing 2 2-axis joysticks. I don't know what the "minimum requirements" will be, if I just want the 1 axis.
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Okay I just clipped the plug off and re-wired it. I've got RED going to pin in #3 on theback of my case, and BLUE going to pin in #1, that being RED 3 = Joy 1 X axis and BLUE 1 = +5V.
I try to add it in windows, but not sure what to pick. Did custom, chose 2 axis (the minimum it allows) and 0 buttons and race car device, and it still says "not connected". I tried 2-axis, 2-button joystick and it still says "not connected".
I don't know what I missed. I think I only need the 2 pins. What am I doing wrong?
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They work!! Hotwired pin 1 to 3, 6, and 13, put pedals in 11, put it in as a 4-axis 4-button stick and calibrate. Only lets you calibrate pedals, but it works!
Now they're too damn sensitive. Need to spend time tomorrow scaling them.
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I am not sure what you are trying to do. Why didn't you just plug them into your joystick port with no modification? Well, glad you got them working!
Gunner
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The pedals are designed to piggy-back on a normal analog stick, simply replacing the 4th axis. You're screwed if your stick is a sidewinder (not a standard stick, not compatible with these pedals), so yes I was trying to get them working as a stand-alone (instead of a piggy-back).
Can't aim worth a damn yet, though.
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The two plugs on the end of the cord is just a built in Y cable. You can use them without connecting a joystick to the pedals. Just connect the plug that says "Gameport" into the gameport, and don't use the other. I am using the same pedals you have, Gameport CH Pedals. As long as you got them to work, that's all that matters.
It takes a bit to get used to them :)
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That they do! I'm still suffering.
I went through all that trouble to hook 'em up because they didn't work without a joystick plugged in. I downloaded software and other things meant to emulate the joystick (without it being there) but nothing worked. Oh well. If you have any tips on learning I'm all ears!