Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Bruno on September 29, 2006, 02:47:51 PM
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Here's the situation:
After a college football game 4 friends are waiting for cab and a big drunk dude comes up to the four talking smack (cursing and spitting etc...). and then a brief fist fight ensues. Only 3 punches were thrown and the drunk is 'knocked out' and the four friends go on their way. The drunk was 6' 2" and the kid that 'knocked him out' was 5' 8".
As it turned out the 'drunk' was killed from the last punch. Apparently, the drunk died when an artery going to his brain was torn due to his head twisting back from the punch.
Only two of the four were involved in the fight. One threw 2 punches and the other threw 1. After it was over the four got in a cab and went on their way thinking they just knocked out some big drunk dude. They didn't realize the drunk was dead.
The two that threw the punches are charged with second degree murder and are currently on trial in Jacksonville, Florida. One of the other 2 not charged is my brother's wife's younger brother Justin Shaw. None of these four are dopers or drunks or wanna be gang bangers.
Now when I was a kid I fought all the time. I have hit folks with bottles, bats, boards etc... I am not bragging but I have been involved on many fist fights and have been on the receiving end of few hard hits myself. However, in all the fights I have been in and have seen I could easily be in the position of the 2 kids charged above. I have seen my younger brother (he's much bigger and stronger then me) hit a guy so hard that he actually left his feet before hitting the guy and sliding on his back.
Testimony blames another with hit that felled student (http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/092906/met_5314380.shtml)
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Who threw the first punch?
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Walk away. If you don't, you sure as hell better be able to prove it was self-defense.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Who threw the first punch?
Lane did but it doesn't matter in regards to my point. I am not arguing who should be charged or convicted but how easily I could end up in the same spot.
I sure wouldn't wait for a 6' 2" drunk to hit me, especially after seeing how one punch can kill ya... Call it a 'preemptive strike'...
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http://www.gainesville.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060927/LOCAL/209270335/1078/NEWS
5 on 1, and a witness saw one of the suspects spit on the victim after he was knocked to the ground.
With a jury of 4 women and 1 man, he's toast.
Everyone with a highschool or college-aged son should have them read about this story. You can kill someone with a punch, and get charged with murder. No matter how cool street fighting looks on YouTube, you can seriously screw up your life.
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It wasn't a '5 on 1 fight'. The witness stated five were standing around and saw 1, Foss, punch the victim. Only 2 threw punches, Lane and Foss. There were only 3 punches thrown overall, the one from Foss being the one that killed Brown.
Everyone with a highschool or college-aged son should have them read about this story. You can kill someone with a punch, and get charged with murder. No matter how cool street fighting looks on YouTube, you can seriously screw up your life.
That's exactly what I was thinking. Regardless, of how silly this type of 'fist fight' may seem when someone losses their life someone has to be held accountable. The jury will decide as to what degree.
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had a friend who punched a guy...knocked him out...head hit corner of a curb, dies two weeks later...my friend gets 8 years for manslaughter...
it was a fair fight, 1-1, but if someone dies, there's hell to pay.
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if the guy was a drunk in a truck first of all, who would believe a drunk. second, why would a drunk come up to someone and start talking chit. did these guys know each other? 3rd couldnt the kids say that the drunk started punching and the kids were trying to defend them selves? the guy was a drunk driver. its better he payed for it then for someone elses life to be ruined when he hit someone in his truck.
there are fights that happen like this. my dad was telling me that when he was little there were 2 kids that wanted to fight. one pushed the other and the kid tripped over a curb and hit his head and died. its silly things like that, that will ruin someone.
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I'm not sure exactly what I want to say. My younger brother was killed in a similar situation. Well, not that similar, but he was (sucker)punched and he did (eventually)die as a result. I have zero patience for ^%$#&^%'s who think it's ok to resort to violence like that. I don't effing care if the drunk was mouthing off, the kids coulda walked away. Eff them, I hope they meet some real friendly fellows in prison.
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Originally posted by Bruno
It wasn't a '5 on 1 fight'. The witness stated five were standing around and saw 1, Foss, punch the victim. Only 2 threw punches, Lane and Foss. There were only 3 punches thrown overall, the one from Foss being the one that killed Brown.
http://www.gainesville.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060929/LOCAL/209290312/1078/NEWS
"Justin Shaw, 21, who was with the five men the night of the game but wasn't arrested, told jurors on Thursday that Brown stumbled up to the group in the CSX parking lot, and mumbled an obscenity at them. Shaw said he didn't follow the five men when they walked over to Brown, but rode toward Jacksonville's beaches with them in a cab that was eventually stopped by police."
"Justin Shaw, 21, said Brown appeared to be drunk when he cursed them as they sat on the curb waiting for the taxi."
The 5 suspects left their curb-side seats, walked over to the victim, and attacked him. It was 5 on 1, but only 2 threw punches.
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Yep your brothers buddies picked a fight with a drunk, some are going to pay for it.
Sounds about right, I would feel sorry for them if the drunk had attacked them, but since they had to be tough guys and go beat on the guy for being a bad drunk, they are going to pay for the death.
Sucks to be them. Sucks even more to be the dead guy.
Sounds like your brother needs new friends.
I hope you didn't go around beating drunks for insulting you.
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4 guys on an open street in which they had the option to simply walk away? Even if only 2 of them fought, it's still 2 on 1 with additional help nearby--not exactly "bad odds". Add in the two making the first punch, and you'll have an awfully hard time making it look like self defence on their part. The prosecutor will have a much easier time making it look like a group of macho guys beating up on a dumb drunk. The latter is probably closer to the truth, too.
Bad language isn't sufficient cause to attack someone. It's unfortunate that the guy died (moreso for *his* family, if he has one), but as you describe it, the kids ARE responsible.
If you think you could easily end up in the same situation, you may want to re-examine how quickly you resort to fighting.
J_A_B
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Listen to you pansies! This is ****ing dissapointing! From all of you!
Everyone with a highschool or college-aged son should have them read about this story. You can kill someone with a punch, and get charged with murder. No matter how cool street fighting looks on YouTube, you can seriously screw up your life.
You? can screw up your life? You?
Are you kidding me? IT'S THE ****ING GOVERNMENT THAT CAN SCREW UP YOUR LIFE. The solution to this entire case is to put it in the hands of a 6 year old. Maybe then you will all realize how ****ed up you are when you see the pure logic of it.
A fight happened. Both sides went to blows, no side really attacked the other. No side maliciously attacked the other person. Once the fight was over, they left. The death of the handsomehunk drunk wasn't even a considerable consequence of the actions. No one knew it was going to happen, nor was it to be expected.
Case ****ING closed.
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"The death of the handsomehunk drunk wasn't even a considerable consequence of the actions. No one knew it was going to happen, nor was it to be expected."
It just so happens that it's illegal to kill someone as an unintended consequence of committing another crime, be it a felony or a misdemeanor. If you rob a bank and the teller dies of a heart attack, you're responsible for that death. If you get into a needless street fight and inadvertently kill someone, you're responsible.
Feel free to call everyone pansies and pat yourself on your back for how manly you are; feel free to blame the evil government instead of people who decided to punch first and not bother to ask any questions later (they could have at least made sure the guy was all right, no?), but that's how it is and even a 6-year-old could see it.
J_A_B
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they will find lots of fights in prison to prove their manliness.
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Originally posted by Mickey1992
http://www.gainesville.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060929/LOCAL/209290312/1078/NEWS
"Justin Shaw, 21, who was with the five men the night of the game but wasn't arrested, told jurors on Thursday that Brown stumbled up to the group in the CSX parking lot, and mumbled an obscenity at them. Shaw said he didn't follow the five men when they walked over to Brown, but rode toward Jacksonville's beaches with them in a cab that was eventually stopped by police."
"Justin Shaw, 21, said Brown appeared to be drunk when he cursed them as they sat on the curb waiting for the taxi."
The 5 suspects left their curb-side seats, walked over to the victim, and attacked him. It was 5 on 1, but only 2 threw punches.
It wasn't 5 on 1. Drunk talked smack after a college football game. One kid smacked him a bit. The Big dude still pushed the issue the other kid smacked him and dude died. Lane, Foss and Brown. That's 3 folks and 3 punches. 1 dead 2 on trial for second degree murder.
Sounds about right, I would feel sorry for them if the drunk had attacked them, but since they had to be tough guys and go beat on the guy for being a bad drunk, they are going to pay for the death.
No one cares how you feel about them. That's not a question. 'Fights' like the above happen a 1000 times a day. The point isn't about who is responsible, or who to feel for. The court will decide who is repsonsible and what price they should pay. The point is that I know in my life the same type of thing could have happened when I was young.
I hope you didn't go around beating drunks for insulting you.
I did much worse and that's the whole point of my posting. After sitting and thinking about these kids and then the stupid things I have done when I was young it is strange how things turn out.
Just to be clear, it wasn't 5 or 4 guys walking up and attacking some poor drunk. It was after a college football game, the guy that was drunk didn't just say 'hello' the wrong way. He spat at them and they jumped up and he jumped up. There was pushing and shoving and yelling all prior to the 'punches'. The dude was bigger and louder and got smacked. It's just in this instance he died. It's a stupid waste all way around but nothing that doesn't happen all the time, all over the country.
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If the victim was in fact legally "drunk", then by law he was unable to care for his safety or the safety of others. I wonder what the deceased BAC was.
A dude who the law says "cant care for his safety" gets in a fight & dies; hardly murder.. Bar fights, drunk fights are common occurances, at least around here, are all these people potential murders?, well, yea..
There's the letter of the law and the spirit of the law; the letter says prosecute for murder, yippie... some DA gets a feather in his hat. But the sprit of murder laws was to keep people from killing each other, are these guys really "murderers"?.. of a few dudes who got in a ruckus with an unfortunate result?
If they had knocked him out, THEN summarily stomped his poop.. that MIGHT be murder. Voluntary manslaughter more like it.
Who really is best served by locking these kids up?, is the community going to be safer? or is some DA looking to make brownie points as "tough" on crime?
What is the point here? protect "us" against those little A-hole menaces to society, or make an example of a few kids who got in a random fight.
I saw this as a cop a lot, I put some solid cases of some bad people who had hurt lots of innocent people; almost nothing happens, or some chocolate goodnesszle bullet in County. Similar circumstances with a different DA, he throws the book at em... they go away for 7 years.
Sometimes these DAs think its time to send a message, they do so by putting the screws to some kids like these who are guilty of 2 min of very poor judgement.
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The autopsy also showed Brown had a blood-alcohol level three times the limit at which Florida law considers a person impaired.
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Who really is best served by locking these kids up?, is the community going to be safer? or is some DA looking to make brownie points as "tough" on crime?
I've always thought that the law stood for the victim's family in these cases. Its difficult to generalize, but in cases like this, a victim's family member might well be so distraught that they go looking to kill the person who did this to thier loved one, whom they will never see again. You can't generalize, but a victim, or his family demands justice. The government is supposed to get that justice for the victim's family. Without that, homicides would invite revenge, or street justice more often.
Live by the sword, die by the sword. Young people who have killed others in fights are not uncommon, and it winds up in trajedy all around. I blame the parents.
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should add, I'd expect a case like Bruno described to become a plea bargained manslaughter case with maybe 6 - 8 months served.
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It doesn't have anything to do with manliness. It has to do with OUR government telling US what THEY think is right.
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Laser...are you a crazy person? Flouhride is in the water! run run run....its the government....SHUT UP!
Listen, this is a terrible situation, and with all due respect, unless your in your early 20's, or just out of college, you really dont know okay? People fight all the time over stupid chit...During my four years at UCONN i've seen two people killed on campus...1- a girl got hit in the head by a keg that was thrown from the roof of a townhouse...2- I'm not quit sure if he died, but he looked lifeless as hell to me, but was beat to the face with glass bottles and a frying pan infront of thousands of people at spring weekend...
People fight...I played rugby for four years in college...I would stick my finer in peoples eyes, and grab at their ears constantly...Never did I think that could kill someone, but in retrospect I was a freaking moron for doing it....
Should these kids go to jail? I dont know...I dont think that they should, but then again wheres the double standard? they did kill somebody, whether it was manslaughter or not, and where do you draw the line?
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
It doesn't have anything to do with manliness. It has to do with OUR government telling US what THEY think is right.
Beating a drunk to death is pretty much frowned upon in just about every country.. except maybe Iran, or one of the 'stans.
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But punching a drunk in self defense and he accidently dies would be a different matter I would think. Drunks are dangerous to fight, mainly because they feel little pain and could turn the fight around in their favor if they stay up.
Les
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EDIT: Poor wording on my part, no real point to post.
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at least the drunk didnt dirve and kill a family or something cause he was drunk.
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this is another good reason why i do my drinking at home, alone.
yeah, with nobody else, cause u know when i drink alone, i prefer to be by myself.
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I've been attacked a few times, but I only used my fists once. Well, the situation was rather tight, and the opponent a martial arts guy, so I hooked him and smacked out his front teeth :D
That time could have got me into that situation, for I was aware that he was dangerous, I was ready to harm him very much. Luckily, one punch was enough. It left me thinking though.
A few years later I got "ganged" by some 3. I didn't use my fists and I got out with a few cuts and bruises. They did though....
But I see the point Bruno is giving, - this could have happened to most.
Recommend Judo.
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This kind of thing can happen to any of us. It is the reason why i stopped fighting people. My last fistfight was when i was about 18. That fistfight ended with me knocking out a guy with one blow to his teeth. It was a saturday. On monday I got a call from him and he asked me to meet him at the local police station were he would report me. I showed up and in the waiting room we had a talk were I apologised to him. When we got into the room with the police officer we all had a talk and he showed a few videos of what had happened to folks in fights. He recomended that the guy i beat up drop the charges and he did. Mostly beause he could see i regretted it and that I actually showed up to apologise. The officer also understood that i was severly provocated and that I was alone against him and his friends.
A month later i met him again and i bought him a round of beer. His face was still a mess but he did admit that he prolly deserved the beating.... i did not agree.
Now I walk away from insults to me, the missus or any other form of provocation. It could have ended badly and all because I allowed myself to be provoked by insults made towards my girlfriend.
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The judicial system is society's method of reminding us that our actions can have unintended and undesirable results.
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I would say it's self defense, but if your going to hit someone in a situation like that, why hit them in the head??? Oh I remember now...that's how it's done in Hollywood. The one punch knockout. Because they hit they guy in the head and he died, they will pay for it. Now one good punch to the gut, slight upward thrust into the diaphram, the guys down. No visible marks. No damage. No one goes to jail.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
I've always thought that the law stood for the victim's family in these cases. Its difficult to generalize, but in cases like this, a victim's family member might well be so distraught that they go looking to kill the person who did this to thier loved one, whom they will never see again. You can't generalize, but a victim, or his family demands justice. The government is supposed to get that justice for the victim's family. Without that, homicides would invite revenge, or street justice more often.
exactly. the police who investigated my brothers assault (at the time he was *only* in a coma..) screwed things up and the %^$&^% spent around two days in jail before being set free. It was quite the struggle not to go after the bastard myself. It's been close to 10 years now, and I still occasionally think about taking a road trip and finding him. It really sucks knowing someone got away with murdering your kid brother.