Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: T0J0 on September 30, 2006, 03:43:53 PM
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Ambush (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0rpr0Dgoi8)
This sent chills down my back when I watched it.... I have nothing else to add...
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Originally posted by T0J0
Ambush (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0rpr0Dgoi8)
This sent chills down my back when I watched it.... I have nothing else to add...
"Home video shows US troops abandon ambushed convoy"
That's absolutely wrong. Those dudes from the Virgina Guard counter attacked saving one of the drivers.
Those guys are heros.
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An upsetting video, but I suggest before anyone rushes to judge, you do the research.
A page of info (http://www.recorder.ca/cp/World/060928/w092865A.html)
"They fought back bravely while waiting for reinforcements and attending to the casualties," Lt.-Col. Michelle Martin-Hing, a spokeswoman for the Multi-National Force-Iraq, told The Associated Press in an e-mail.
The military investigation found that "individuals at the front of the convoy reacted as they were taught by pushing forward and getting out of the kill zone of the ambush," Martin-Hing wrote.
"What is not visible in the video being shown is that they collected the casualties they could reach and laid down suppressive fire with their weapons to help get those vehicles that could move from the front of the convoy out of the kill zone," she wrote.
The troops then set up security, called for support and medical evacuations and directed the movements of other gun trucks farther back in the convoy, she said.
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I fail to understand why we have american contractors over there to begin with when what we should do is perhaps have american general contractors. and subcontract the work out to the Iraqis.
that shouldnt have been an american truck driver. it should have been an Iraqi one
that being said. It was best put at the end of the clip.
"They all know the risks when they agree to go ever there"
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I would imagine that there is 24/7 close air support CAPing the different areas of Iraq right? it said it took 45 minutes...Shouldnt there have been some apaches/kiowas, ac130's, MC cobras or navy/air force or MC fighter bombers responding sooner?
Im not putting blame on anyone....Im just curious why it took so long
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I wasnt payng attention to the reporting segment of the video, I just got chills listening to the driver in the cab.... Putting myself in his shoes I might have sharted about the time the escort was out of sight....
Anyone serving over there is a hero!!
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Originally posted by cav58d
I would imagine that there is 24/7 close air support CAPing the different areas of Iraq right? it said it took 45 minutes...Shouldnt there have been some apaches/kiowas, ac130's, MC cobras or navy/air force or MC fighter bombers responding sooner?
Im not putting blame on anyone....Im just curious why it took so long
I have to doubt there are skies full of air support available at a moments notice. That would take a huge amount of assets, and you must remember Iraq is a very large country.
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Surprising the drivers weren't even issued sidearms. They could have held them back for the decisive seconds before backup arrived.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Surprising the drivers weren't even issued sidearms. They could have held them back for the decisive seconds before backup arrived.
No way I would take a civilian job there without a sidearm and a weapon like an assault rifle or preferable an MP5. Not a job out among the civilians like the truck drivers.
Plus maybe a slingshot to sting the clowns throwing rocks.
I dont think if I would go so far as to say those drivers were heros, but they were willing to put their butts on the line to make cash. More mercenary than heroic. Regardless, they shouldnt be killed for doing their jobs.
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Originally posted by Dago
No way I would take a civilian job there without a sidearm and a weapon like an assault rifle or preferable an MP5. Not a job out among the civilians like the truck drivers.
Plus maybe a slingshot to sting the clowns throwing rocks.
I dont think if I would go so far as to say those drivers were heros, but they were willing to put their butts on the line to make cash. More mercenary than heroic. Regardless, they shouldnt be killed for doing their jobs.
I would have to disagree...Yes, essentially these guys are mercenary's, and getting paid a good sum of cash to be over there...That said, they still died contributing to the war effort, so that gets some points in my book.....
I gotta be honest, im suprised at your statement about the CAS CAP...I dont doubt you what so ever, im just suprised...I would have imagened that there would be a mix of f-15's, f-16's, hornets, bombers, and choppers all proportinally spread across the skys of Iraq to as to respond to something like this...Atleast respond faster than 45 minutes...It sucks if this is the case...I support the war, but I really think there needs to be a big change over there...We know are weaknesses, and we know our strenghts...I dont know how hard it would be to reconfigure everything over there to just exploit our strength and keep weakness to a mininum, but something has to be done...what it is, I dont know?
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Mission Accomplished!
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Mission Accomplished!
This term gets misused all the time, by those who either don't have a clue about its origin in relation to Iraq war discussions, or they just want to misuse it to put down the administration.
The sign "Mission Accomplished" was hung on the deck of the carrier that Bush visited when it was returning from Iraq war service. It was a fact that the mission the carrier was assigned was accomplished, and that is all it referred to.
What a few of the misinformed have tried to do is credit Bush with saying it, but the factual record shows he never did, not on the carrier, and not later. He simply stated that major combat operations were over. And truthfully, they pretty well were. Since the collapse of the Iraqi military, combat actions have typically been confined to very small but deadly skirmishes.
So, please in the future consider refraining from the blatant misuse of terms or statements that lack relevance.
thank you.
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Maybe some former infantrymen can comment on this.
I thought the standard response to an ambush was to lay down heavy suppressing fire, and to charge the enemy positions.
At least thats how they protected road convoys in Vietnam.
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I just watched the video.
Plain and simple, the armored humvee escorting truck one and five abandoned them! At the very least, the humvee could have picked up the survivors from truck one and five. Shoot, they just hit the gas and got out of there!
Whatever happened to showing a bit of bravery? Bravery is doing the right thing even though you are scared.
But why would someone be terrified, sitting in an armored humvee, protected by a gun shield, wearing a kevlar helmet and body armor, with an M2 machine gun and hundreds of rounds of ammunition? Only thing that could have penetrated that humvee would be RPGs and rounds bigger than 7.62mm.
I think this is a case of inexperienced, scared troops, and perhaps very poor tactics. Heres what I think should have been done: The humvee stops, the gunner suppresses the insurgents, the driver runs out and gathers up the civilian contractors. Wouldn't have taken more than 45 seconds.
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But why would someone be terrified, sitting in an armored humvee, protected by a gun shield, wearing a kevlar helmet and body armor
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I can think of more than 2,500 damned good reasons to be scared :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
I just watched the video.
Plain and simple, the armored humvee escorting truck one and five abandoned them! At the very least, the humvee could have picked up the survivors from truck one and five. Shoot, they just hit the gas and got out of there!
Whatever happened to showing a bit of bravery? Bravery is doing the right thing even though you are scared.
But why would someone be terrified, sitting in an armored humvee, protected by a gun shield, wearing a kevlar helmet and body armor, with an M2 machine gun and hundreds of rounds of ammunition? Only thing that could have penetrated that humvee would be RPGs and rounds bigger than 7.62mm.
I think this is a case of inexperienced, scared troops, and perhaps very poor tactics. Heres what I think should have been done: The humvee stops, the gunner suppresses the insurgents, the driver runs out and gathers up the civilian contractors. Wouldn't have taken more than 45 seconds.
While trying to be diplomatic, I dont think you have a clue about the situation, or the capabilities of the weapons they were using. Yes, the insurgents were using RPGs, and yes, the troops did follow SOPs as required. They could have stayed in place, but they would have just died a foolish and useless death and been no help to anyone, or, they could do as they did, got out of the immediate kill zone, organize and do whatever they could to stop the attack, rescue those possible, treat injuries and call for support.
The rounds the insurgents are using are quite deadly, and the RPGS will toast a humvee in a heartbeat.
Please do not second guess troops in combat, under deadly attack unless you truely know what they are facing, and more honestly, unless you have walked in their shoes.
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Not every soldier, and I would think it would apply more to reserve soldiers, are born again hard. When the fan is hit with the brown stuff, nobody knows how someone will react. Its easy to say the humvee should have stopped, but in that tight space with God knows what was around there, I think I would have sped down the road to get my bearings and figure the best course of action. Besides it looks like the truck rear-ended the humvee, and probably that made the driver of the humvee punch it.
I too think Iraqis should be the drivers. That said, the civi driver do know the risk an at some point decided that the money was worth the risk.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Mission Accomplished!
The transformation is complete. From someone who understood politics to a school teacher. I'm betting you don't tip either. :rofl ;)
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Dago, don't tell me not to second guess the troops. Whats your credentials? Do you think that going through boot-camp and AIT school makes these national guard soldiers elite killing machines? Shoot, before the second gulf war, and all through the 90s, I had only heard about how horrible the training and combat readiness of National Guard units were.
I did not see a single RPG fired in this ambush. None were fired during the initial assault, none were fired at the defenseless trucks. The debate here is not whether a humvee could withstand a RPG hit (yes, they have before). The debate is why the truckers were left for 45 minutes, when I can name several battles in which convoys came under attack from machine guns and rpgs, and people were rescued from disabled vehicles due to the heroism of soldiers.
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not saying that the guardsman protecting that convoy didn't do their job to the best of their ability, but if I was in their shoes I wouldn't be too enthusiastic about being used as a private security force, and going the 'extra mile' for a an outfit like Halliburton wouldn't be high on my list of things to do.
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I don't see anything unusual in the video, other than the facts of war.
The convoy is lightly escorted. they had truck number 1 fall over and number 5 simply stopped. They still had trucks 2, 3 and 5. Only one humwee escort could have stopped to try and help, which most likely wasn't even the one in radio contact with the truck driver. On such a narrow road it would have took some time to turn around a humwee, let alone if you'd try to pick more humwees from further ahead. The other humwees have heavy trucks trailing them at fast speed, they had to keep going and escort them out of the hell hole.
It was an ambush, they had no idea of the extent of it; it could been a light or strong ambush. Turning around and then stopping there with a single humwee could be nothing short of a suicide. Instead of a possibly lost driver, there'd be the unit of a humwee lost too. One less escort for the ambushers to worry about. There wasn't strong enough escort to begin with.
The worst thing you can do in an ambush on a narrow road is to stop and try to turn around. You can't stop to think, you must either run through and hope for the best or then you'll have to stop half the convoy and slow down the rest. By stoppping there you won't achieve anything else than becoming a sitting duck. You can't effectively fight back against an unknown enemy which is all around you, while the enemy has a perfect view on you and your numbers.
They did what was the best choice for the situation. They reorganized when they were able to and turned back to retrieve the driver.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Dago, don't tell me not to second guess the troops. Whats your credentials? Do you think that going through boot-camp and AIT school makes these national guard soldiers elite killing machines? Shoot, before the second gulf war, and all through the 90s, I had only heard about how horrible the training and combat readiness of National Guard units were.
I did not see a single RPG fired in this ambush. None were fired during the initial assault, none were fired at the defenseless trucks. The debate here is not whether a humvee could withstand a RPG hit (yes, they have before). The debate is why the truckers were left for 45 minutes, when I can name several battles in which convoys came under attack from machine guns and rpgs, and people were rescued from disabled vehicles due to the heroism of soldiers.
I usually reserve my harsh comments from this board, but you are acting like a complete jerk. Did you happen to notice a truck overturned from the ambush? Do you think that was done by a AK47?
Do you have a clue???
If you're such a brave heroic badass, I am sure the Army will welcome you into the fold and be happy to send you over to Iraq to prove your bravery.
And if you haven't been there, nor have all the facts of that situation, you only make yourself look foolish in your rush to judge.
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AWwww Jesus!
rather, not.. :lol
Is it legally difficult to carry a gun over there, as a civilian, and as contractor?
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Convoy counter-ambush tactics:
1. Drivers attempt to drive through the killing
zone.
2. Personnel return fire immediately.
3. When vehicles are clear of the killing zone, they
are halted. Occupants dismount and take immediate
offensive action against the enemy positions.
4. Subsequent vehicles approaching the killing
zone halt short of the zone. Occupants debark and take
immediate offensive action against the enemy
positions.
-If hardened vehicles halt in the
killing zone, all available weapons are used to return
fire immediately.
-On the first perceptible slackening of enemy fire,
occupants dismount.
-After dismounting, if no cover is available, an
immediate frontal assault against the enemy is employed.
http://compass.seacadets.org/pdf/nrtc/cb2/14235_ch5.pdf#search=%22counter%20ambush%20convoy%20tactic%22
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Oh to be an armchair General!!!
in every armed forces in the world the actions on ambush are the same
1. Return fire & lay down covering fire
2. Clear the killing zone if possible ASAP
3. regroup
4. counterattack
these guy's did everything by book
:aok
and if anyone says otherwise
sign up for 6 months try it yourself
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Found this while reading more about the convoy attack.
... I was at the base that convoy was heading to, Camp McKenzie, now closed. The Army escorts DID NOT FIRE BACK! They pulled their crew served weapons into their armored Humvees and waited for the QRF to arrive. One of the Sergeants in the QRF told me this and it was corroborated by several other NCO's on the QRF. The Army convoy commander had never been to McKenzie and got lost. There is a cardinal rule when heading to McKenzie, "Never turn south onto the Al Jabouri Peninsula". There is no place to turn around, it's a dead end and it's full of Sunni insurgents. Nobody at McKenzie, either KBR or the Army knew this convoy was coming! If that had been known, the Army unit stationed there would have been in the town, guiding them through and providing a protective overwatch. The name of the town is not Samarra, it's Ad Duluiyah and it's a hell hole. Don't blame Halliburton or KBR, they go where the Army tells them to go. Blame poor leadership and incompetence on the Army's part. Halliburton and KBR care deeply about their employees. The KBR driver at the rear without a trailer was driving up and down the road trying to distract and run over any insurgents attacking his convoy. You want a hero? He's the one.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/09/army_responds_t.html
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The sign "Mission Accomplished" was hung on the deck of the carrier that Bush visited when it was returning from Iraq war service. It was a fact that the mission the carrier was assigned was accomplished, and that is all it referred to.
Excellent.
In actuality you got that wrong. It was for little bowsanmate Suzy who has been trying to get pregnant for 2 week on that CV and she finally made it !!!
WTG SUZY !!! MISSION ACCOMPLISED !!!
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Maybe KBR should've used their own people to provide security.
http://media.pbs.org/asxgen/general/windows/media4/frontline/2315/windows/ch1_hi.wmv.asx
Go to 8:30 into the video to see how they train to respond to a convoy vehicle being disabled in an ambush.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
The transformation is complete. From someone who understood politics to a school teacher. I'm betting you don't tip either. :rofl ;)
this guy teaches school? that's one of the reasons my kids were all home schooled.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Found this while reading more about the convoy attack.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/09/army_responds_t.html
Thanks for the quote from someone who registered on the abc boards as jo mama, another armchair general like yourself.
You have no proven credentials to make any statements about this attack, nor have you any learned experience. Do us a favor, if you think you could do better I can recommend a recruiter you can talk to. Until you pony up, please don't speak of which you know nothing.
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Ok... I still don't get it... A carrier that accomplished it's mission had a banner saying so... the sailors felt proud... as they should..
why do some try to paint that as Bush saying that all effort in iraq would cease at that moment?
I sure hope such people never get a chance to teach young people.
We really do need a voucher system before things get even sillier.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
why do some try to paint that as Bush saying that all effort in iraq would cease at that moment?
Because the anti-Bush anything crowd has no objection to lieing and distorting to serve their hate filled agenda.
I sure hope such people never get a chance to teach young people.
lazs
Amen to that.
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But why would someone be terrified, sitting in an armored humvee, protected by a gun shield, wearing a kevlar helmet and body armor
Obviously from someone who's never been shot at:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by USRanger
Obviously from someone who's never been shot at:rolleyes:
Yup.
A braver armchair warrior has not been found.
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Originally posted by Dago
Because the anti-Bush anything crowd has no objection to lieing and distorting to serve their hate filled agenda.
Hmm, Bush, lieing, distorting, and agenda in the same sentence. I think I see a subliminal message.
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Aqua,
It's time for you to have a nice cup of STFU. The proper tactics and doctrine have already been explained to you. Unlike reading in a nice sterile, non hostile and quiet environment, a battle for real is neither text book, static or following the "ideal script".
There is no real time fully armed, fueled air response assets available on a 24 hr 7 day a week 5 minute arrival basis for every freaking troop or asset movement in the country. The air assets that are on station are there because of preplanned and implemented battle action plans. The same for ground rapid reaction forces.
It still takes time to get from the staging area to the area of combat and be able to determine in a compact urban environment where the good guys are and where the bad guys are. There is also a little thing such as aiming errors, blast radius and obstacles for the incoming rounds to get by to hit the target.
For the ground forces there is the concept of multiple ambushes. It doesn't take a tactical genius to determine if an ambush is started at point C it will innitiate a response from enemy forces at point D and that they will likely travel along route X. This means you can plan for a second and third or more ambushes along likely choke points to hit the reaction force before they are in a position to assist the first forces. The air and artillery assets are now split even further to try and support two or more active combat actions now going on.
The real word is not like some computer or video game. There are real penalties for taking improper actions or not following tactical doctrine that is written in blood from numerous combats in the past all over the world.
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Good thing Skuzzy is ultra-consistent at deleting personal attacks.
Back on topic sorta, the White House made that banner and brought it to the ship. It's obvious what message they were trying to send. You can try to spin your way out of it, but anyone who knows **** from shinola can see what was going on there.
As for this ambush, just another example of American lives and resources being wasted in this quagmire the Neocons have created. I'm sure the escort was just following SOPs. It's not their fault they got assigned trying to "accomplish" an unwinnable war. Here's to whoever has the balls to admit defeat and bring them home.
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Funked if you wanna look at it that way, then try this on for size....The primary mission was accomplished...The STATE MILITARY of IRAQ was defeated
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Re the carrier event, it was to celebrate the "end of major combat operations." (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/05/20030501-15.html) Whether major combat operations have finished is somehow debatable.
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Here's to whoever has the balls to admit defeat and bring them home.
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nope. too much blood invested. Need to think victory funked. stop being such a loser for **** sake.
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Am I wrong, or :
1: The escort drove on despite being called.
2. There was no cover for the next 40 minutes.
WTF is that supposed to be? Some escort and communication yes?
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Good thing Skuzzy is ultra-consistent at deleting personal attacks.
Back on topic sorta, the White House made that banner and brought it to the ship. It's obvious what message they were trying to send. You can try to spin your way out of it, but anyone who knows **** from shinola can see what was going on there.
As for this ambush, just another example of American lives and resources being wasted in this quagmire the Neocons have created. I'm sure the escort was just following SOPs. It's not their fault they got assigned trying to "accomplish" an unwinnable war. Here's to whoever has the balls to admit defeat and bring them home.
Funked, thats a good way to earn a permanent vacation from the boards.
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That is very chilling....and sad.
How did that truck driver stay alive for 40 mins before help arrived? Those guys in that truck are very lucky to be alive. My instinct would have been to get out of the tuck and run for my life. It seems like he was just a sitting duck.
I think everyone that goes over there in support of the mission is a hero.
Funked is a hero too, to someone somewhere..... Im guessing.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Whatever happened to showing a bit of bravery? Bravery is doing the right thing even though you are scared.
.
Maybe you should go show them how it's done.:mad:
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As a Marine infantryman I was taught never never never stop in an abush kill zone.
Haul ass, meet back up at the objective rally point, and counter attack.
If your stuck in the kill zone thats tough ****, you knew the risks when you signed the contract.
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Everything else aside, you'd have to be nuts to not carry a sidearm AT THE VERY LEAST in that sort of a situation. I'd be wearing a helmet and body armor too, and probably packing an SMG if I could get away with it.
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I think maybe Aqua has been watching too many Chuck Norris movies, his ability to distinquish between reality and television/movies is sadly failing.
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It was a fact that the mission the carrier was assigned was accomplished, and that is all it referred to.
Ha ha ha ha ha!
Actually, the sign was left there from a previous VIP visitor, a certain Reverend Umboto Gorge, who had just completed the building of a new evangelical chapel in deepest, darkest Africa.
They just forgot to take it down.
:lol
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Originally posted by Angus
Am I wrong, or :
1: The escort drove on despite being called.
2. There was no cover for the next 40 minutes.
WTF is that supposed to be? Some escort and communication yes?
After the truck in front of it exploded, was that Hummer supposed to just sit there? Experience has taught them the 1st explosion is to draw them in for suqsequent explosions... the best thing to do is beat feet, rally and counter attack... which is exactly what they did... least we forget they did rescue that driver.
Otherwise you risk everyone in that hummer being blown up as a sitting duck.
You'll also notice the hummer accelerates BEFORE truck 5 advises hes disabled, we dont even know if that hummer had comm, or knew truck 5 was behind him & disabled.. heck we dont even know if that hummer was taking rounds, nobody in their right mind will just sit there with bullets impacting the ride home. They lose that hummer, they're all royally screwed.
Didnt see any RGPs said some one?, suprised?, you're looking at an EDITED incident through a straw hole.. the road behind them could have been lined with ambushers / unfriendlies.
IF you want to lay blame on tactics, the convoy commander mis read his map causing them to miss a turn, beyond that he got his troop through it alive and rescued a trapped driver. Outstanding given the resources they had.
The driver said it took 40 min, we dont know thats accurate...I'm sure it felt like a lifetime to that dude sitting there looking at the end of his being.
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To me all that video showed was yet more proof that Iraq is a lost cause. And if the escorts are ordered to abandon the convoy if they are ambushed, what's the point of having the escorts in the first place. When I was on convoy escort we were ordered to protect disabled vehicles until help arrived. Our SISU's had more amour though.
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Oh Maverick and Dago, I can't even take what you all say seriously. You guys are so brainwashed.
Just for the record, I'm a registered Republican. Studying military history has been a hobby of mine for many years. I'm informed enough to make my own decisions on the video I watched.
You can make excuses and justifications for what we saw in the video all you want. But to an objective (and educated) person, the situation in this particular part of the convoy collapsed.
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The reality of being shot at for real isn't something a Monday morning QB can relate to.
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Well, I still see an ambush where the escort runs and comes to pick up the survivor in 40 minutes.
Try to compare that to some gritty escorts in WW2.
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Notice how those Erinys guys in the video I posted a link to do pretty much the opposite of what the national guard did.
Looking at it pragmatically, what is the point of an escort if they are trained to leave the escortee when the shooting starts? Seems incongruent with the definition of armed escort.
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I think those national guardsmen have been unfairly judged and slammed on the basis of a 2 minute video clip without regard to the realities of the urban fighting in that sheet hole they served/serve in. The standard operating procedure in an ambush situation that some people seem to find so abhorrent might be a clue to just how dangerous and difficult their job is.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Oh Maverick and Dago, I can't even take what you all say seriously. You guys are so brainwashed.
Just for the record, I'm a registered Republican. Studying military history has been a hobby of mine for many years. I'm informed enough to make my own decisions on the video I watched.
You can make excuses and justifications for what we saw in the video all you want. But to an objective (and educated) person, the situation in this particular part of the convoy collapsed.
Just a clue here,
Which ever party you are registered to vote with is totally irrelevant to the discussion of the tactical situation. Brainwashed?? HHHmmm that's a very interesting term for someone who has actually gone through the training and understands tactical doctrine.
Perhaps you are not as "objective" as you think you are.
"Studying military history" hardly puts you in position to know what to do in a real world situation. You've never trained for it much less been there. That statement of yours is pretty much like the Holiday Inn Express commercial. You slept there so all of a sudden you are an expert. Yeah right. Reading about it no more qualifies you for the task than reading a first aid book qualifies you for a job as a nurse.
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Like others here said: Why isn't that driver armed? Is that part of their contract? if it is... looks pretty silly to me. I'd be packing an 88, some nukes and a dozen gatlings in my pockets if I were to be a truck driver there...
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Studying military history has been a hobby of mine for many years.
The people in the video are not enjoying a hobby.
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Armed would have been better. But he thought he had an escort.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Studying military history has been a hobby of mine for many years. I'm informed enough to make my own decisions on the video I watched.
You can make excuses and justifications for what we saw in the video all you want. But to an objective (and educated) person, the situation in this particular part of the convoy collapsed.
To me this statement is laughable.
You have a man, who presumably has never faced hostile fire, judging the actions of a group of men that are in a life or death situation.
**** yes convoys collapse under fire, it's a scary situation. The truck driver knew when he asked to go to Iraq that:
A. There is war going on.
B. They hate America.
C. He won't have a gun.
D. He may die.
It seems to me his greed for money out weighed his common sense.
You being an educated man and having an extensive knowledge of infantry tactics upon engagement and enemy behavior maybe you should join the military branch of your choice and put that knowledge to good use.
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The military serves the public. Civilians should always be allowed to criticize the military if they think the military is not doing its job properly. In my opinion those guardsmen failed in their duty to protect the convoy.
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Here is one example of a gallant escort duty, although mostly unsuccessful.:
"At 03:00 Glorious was detached with the destroyers Ardent and Acasta to head for Scapa Flow at all speed, while the other carrier HMS Ark Royal and the rest of the fleet remained behind to escort the slower main convoy.
Two days earlier a force of German warships had put to sea and they spotted the carrier at 15:45 only escorted by the pair of destroyers. The powerful battlecruisers Scharnhorst and Gneisenau opened fire at 16:30 at a range of 20,000 yards, gaining direct hits on the bridge of the carrier with the third and subsequent salvoes. The carrier replied with her own gun armament, but was hopelessly outranged. By 17:20 the carrier was dead on the water, little more than a hulk, and sinking fast.
The two destroyers did their brave and suicidal best to protect their charge, but were both sunk during the next 45 minutes - but not before Acasta had launched a torpedo strike which gained a hit abreast Scharnhorst’s after turret, inflicting serious damage. "
Linkie:http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/gladiator_glorious.htm
Another one, - Glowworm:
"On the morning of 8 April 1940 Glowworm encountered a German naval detachment, led by the Heavy Cruiser Admiral Hipper, on its way to landing invasion troops at Trondheim as part of the German occupation of Norway (Operation Weserübung). Although hopelessly outgunned, Glowworm accepted the fight and, while receiving several heavy hits, fired torpedoes at the German cruiser. They missed, and in a final desperate effort to sink or at least seriously damage her opponent, Glowworm then attempted to ram Admiral Hipper. As the ships collided, Admiral Hipper suffered major damage to her bow. Glowworm was pushed under the cruiser's bow and her entire foreship up to the bridge was sheared off. For several minutes she drifted, on fire, alongside Admiral Hipper, then capsized and sank north-west of Trondheim. Only 31 of her crew survived."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Glowworm_%28H92%29
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Convoy counter-ambush tactics:
1. Drivers attempt to drive through the killing
zone.
2. Personnel return fire immediately.
3. When vehicles are clear of the killing zone, they
are halted. Occupants dismount and take immediate
offensive action against the enemy positions.
4. Subsequent vehicles approaching the killing
zone halt short of the zone. Occupants debark and take
immediate offensive action against the enemy
positions.
-If hardened vehicles halt in the
killing zone, all available weapons are used to return
fire immediately.
-On the first perceptible slackening of enemy fire,
occupants dismount.
-After dismounting, if no cover is available, an
immediate frontal assault against the enemy is employed.
http://compass.seacadets.org/pdf/nrtc/cb2/14235_ch5.pdf#search=%22counter%20ambush%20convoy%20tactic%22
Looks great on paper, lemme tell you all something, We can all come up with "what if" sceanrios, we can all critiuque till our hearts content and say this and that and what about this or that, thing is, when contact happens, it's fast, plans go out the window, self preservation kicks in along with watching out where everyone else is so you don't get on the wrong side of your buddies fire, time you've raised your weapon, majority of the time it's over, then the air arrives, they go ahead and have a look, back up turns up and tries to police the area, then life goes on-end of story.
and I'll also tell you all this- first thing that goes through your head when you hear that someone/body got killed/ injured is "thank F&&&k it wasn't me" then straight after you have concerns for who it was.
kind of like when you nearly have a car crash and you just get out of it, you don't really dwell on it afterwards but you think about what you could have done and what you did, same thing as this.
Hawco
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Originally posted by cav58d
I would imagine that there is 24/7 close air support CAPing the different areas of Iraq right? it said it took 45 minutes...Shouldnt there have been some apaches/kiowas, ac130's, MC cobras or navy/air force or MC fighter bombers responding sooner?
Im not putting blame on anyone....Im just curious why it took so long
I can understand your point Cav, but you have to note that ( and I mean this in the nicest way, please don't take offence) what we are talking about is not like AH, where you can loiter around for ages using an endless supply of ground attack aircraft for cover.
also have to take into consideration the degree of seperation between Friend and foe on the deck, 20mm/30mm rounds can't tell the difference between friend and foe, they land where they are aimed, so if you have bad guys up close then the air can't just go blasting away at anything that moves on the ground.
I suspect that the route is flown over every morning/night, the crew check the route for anything that wasn't there the last time they flew over it, such as extra bushes, abandoned vehilces and anything that doesn't look right. in this case, the bad guys have good intell that they can lay an ambush with minmum time and planning, that tells me that they have confidence and can attack at will without fear of getting trapped by our guys.
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Originally posted by cav58d
Funked if you wanna look at it that way, then try this on for size....The primary mission was accomplished...The STATE MILITARY of IRAQ was defeated
I thought the primary mission was to locate and secure WMD...
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Looking at it pragmatically, what is the point of an escort if they are trained to leave the escortee when the shooting starts? Seems incongruent with the definition of armed escort.
I agree.
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Well, I'm not trained in current military convoy transport tactics, but it seems obvious to me that the convoy leader should have been MUCH more familiar the route before he was chosen to lead so many to safety. It would seem logical(from the comfort of my living room) that this duty would be assigned to someone who had perhaps been down that road a few times before, not just reading or in this case MISreading a map.
You all have debated in great length what should have happened while they went BACK thru the kill zone, but no one has pointed out that they should never have BEEN IN the kill zone in the first place.
They made a wrong turn down a dead end road. It's fairly obvious that while they were turning around at the dead end, the kill zone was set up for their return. IMO- The responsible party here, is the C.O. that assingned the navigator who wasn't ABSOLUTELY SURE OF THE ROUTE.
If I was to be the driver of truck #5, I would expect my convoy leader knew exactly where he was going. Why else would he/she be the convoy leader?
Again, I make this evaluation from the warm comfort of my livingroom, without being fired upon, and with no military training whatsoever.
flame away if U must-
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no flames just a couple of questions.
have you ever been lost in a town you've never been in?
even when you had a map?
these troops aren't super-human, they are people same as you and I, sometimes they make mistakes.
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That's my point, the person leading the convoy should be someone familiar with the route.
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You can't predrive all the routes available especially in a hot zone. If you try to do that all you do is to provide more and more ambush oportunities.
Think about it, then also think that some of the routes can be cut by the oposition to create additional ambush oportunities. It is not a sterile nor secure environment.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
The transformation is complete. From someone who understood politics to a school teacher. I'm betting you don't tip either. :rofl ;)
Isn't it frightening to watch over all this time? :O :rofl :D
I have never seen an adult swing that much in their views / politics in my life. those unions sure are efficent at the whole brainwashing thing huh :aok :lol
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Five military vehicles, twelve trucks.
My guess would be one Humvee at point, one Humvee bringing up the rear, three in the middle, one of them is between truck four and truck five.
Strikes me as very odd that the truck driver, as he was speeding down the road, was videoing away in the middle of what he called a "hellhole" and that quickly turned into a full-fledged ambush, even after the IED went off. Really strange if you ask me.
I supposed trucks that heavy can have an automatic transmission, but I still think I'd like both hands on the wheel in the middle of a firefight, long as I ain't got no weapon.
At the start of the ambush you hear very clearly on the radio "Truck One is Down." The intrepid driver five's comment is - get ready folks - "KEEP ROLLING!"
Well, well!!!
Driver five almost back-end's the Humvee, still videoing away. The Humvee has already pulled away and apparently is already passing the preceding truck ahead when driver five says his truck is not moving.
That would still appear to leave three Humvees behind truck five, along with seven trucks in the convoy. It was stated that before the ambush the convoy had to turn around because the road was a dead end, so those three Humvees and seven trucks were stuck there along with truck five.
My opinion is that the Humvee in front of truck five did exactly what he was supposed to do, exactly what driver five said to do with truck one, keep rolling.
This video supposedly was taken a year ago. Wonder why wasn't it released sooner?
I wonder why other surviving truckers weren't there at the ABC interview with this guy if the escort really abandoned the convoy.
Only other comment is that a GPS in the lead vehicle and someone who knew how to use it might have been nice!
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Do you "he shouldnt get lost" guys realize there arent street signs on those streets, so getting lost is a very real possiblility for everyone??
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certain members of this board are starting to morph into hysterical women yelling "ullulululululululululu" out the oval mesh viewing port screens of their Hijabs...
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Originally posted by Gunthr
certain members of this board are starting to morph into hysterical women yelling "ullulululululululululu" out the oval mesh viewing port screens of their Hijabs...
Sorry, I dont see it. Some dont agree with the escorts actions, some understand and defend them. Not sure what you are on about, but I dont think that comment is justified.
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Originally posted by hacksaw1
Strikes me as very odd that the truck driver, as he was speeding down the road, was videoing away in the middle of what he called a "hellhole" and that quickly turned into a full-fledged ambush, even after the IED went off. Really strange if you ask me.
Maybe it was strapped to his body or head.
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Originally posted by Dago
Because the anti-Bush anything crowd has no objection to lieing and distorting to serve their hate filled agenda.
And this differs from the "Bush is right ... right or wrong .... simply because it's war and he's the CiC" crowd's lying and distorting to serve their hate filled agenda how? Or is it supposed to? ;)
Let's have some actual Bush quotes then .....
"You know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --George W. Bush, interview with CBS News' Katie Couric, Sept. 6, 2006
"I think -- tide turning -- see, as I remember -- I was raised in the desert, but tides kind of -- it's easy to see a tide turn -- did I say those words?" --George W. Bush, asked if the tide was turning in Iraq, Washington, D.C., June 14, 2006
"I strongly believe what we're doing is the right thing. If I didn't believe it -- I'm going to repeat what I said before -- I'd pull the troops out, nor if I believed we could win, I would pull the troops out." --George W. Bush, Charlotte, N.C., April 6, 2006
"People don't need to worry about security. This deal wouldn't go forward if we were concerned about the security for the United States of America." --George W. Bush, on the deal to hand over U.S. port security to a company operated by the United Arab Emirates, Washington, D.C., Feb. 23, 2006
"I'm the commander — see, I don't need to explain — I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being president." —George W. Bush, as quoted in Bob Woodward's "Bush at War"
:D
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I wasn't talkin about you Dago :)
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By the by .... I agree that people are too fast to jump to conclusions when presented with a less than complete or more than biased bit of dramatically presented info .... on both sides. Yeah, armchairing and spectating is anything but expert interpretation .... whether from the left or the right. ;)
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LOL @ neocon leghumpers
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
LOL @ neocon leghumpers
Yeah, look at all the "neocons" ! :rolleyes:
You seem sad.
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You seem gay.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Maybe some former infantrymen can comment on this.
I thought the standard response to an ambush was to lay down heavy suppressing fire, and to charge the enemy positions.
At least thats how they protected road convoys in Vietnam.
There are two types of ambushes. Blocked and unblocked..
When faced with an unblocked ambush you continue to drive through and do not stop. This may not sound like something John Wayne would do but the object for the convoy is to get out of the kill zone as fast as possible, not stay in it. If a vehicle is hit or disable you do not stop to assist the vehicle. I know John Wayne would find a way to save them. But John Wayne doesn't have to worry about real bullets, rocket launchers or grenades, lined up in a kill zone, for some reason the enemy always seems to miss him..
A Blocked ambush the convoy must assault through, as you described. They have no other option but to do so. A well designed blocked ambush will not allow the convoy to turn around or go around. It keeps them in the kill zone. Of course this type of ambush takes much more planning and does not happen as often.
Guess which ambush type results in more casualties for the convoy?
Anyway, from what I saw in the video the convoy escort did the right thing, it was an unblocked ambush. The only action taken by the convoy leader that can be critized is miss reading the map. The mistake he made cost people their lives and he will have to live with that mistake for the rest of his life.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
I wasn't talkin about you Dago :)
:)
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
You seem gay.
what is it you ultraliberals? I thought you liked gays. you seem confused.
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*rolls up newspaper*
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Originally posted by Dago
Do you "he shouldnt get lost" guys realize there arent street signs on those streets, so getting lost is a very real possiblility for everyone??
I can navigate myself down many riverside trails, coutry roads & even water ways that have no road signs, why???? Landmark Familiarity- Cuz someone showed me the way on previous trips, or I took the time to learn it myself by trail & error. The later being a luxory afforded to me by those providing me with my freedom.
It seems to me that this was not the first time this particular intended route had been taken. It also seems to me, that before you are selected as a convoy leader/navigator, you should be "qualified" for the position. Perhaps by riding along on prior escort missions on the same route. Just seems logical, but obviously- war is not always logical.
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Originally posted by Atoon
I can navigate myself down many riverside trails, coutry roads & even water ways that have no road signs, why???? Landmark Familiarity- Cuz someone showed me the way on previous trips, or I took the time to learn it myself by trail & error. The later being a luxory afforded to me by those providing me with my freedom.
It seems to me that this was not the first time this particular intended route had been taken. It also seems to me, that before you are selected as a convoy leader/navigator, you should be "qualified" for the position. Perhaps by riding along on prior escort missions on the same route. Just seems logical, but obviously- war is not always logical.
Convoy leaders will most likely be an experienced NCO or CO. All go through training to be qualified, all be it some are better at it than others. I would not be surprised if ride alongs are being done already, but that of course depends on the situation and the amount of time they have as someone is rotated out.
Driving the same route is not something that is desired even though you are going to the same destination. Different routes to the same point is perferred otherwise it makes it easier for an enemy to setup/plan an ambush.
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i just watched the video on military.com and then looked up the drivers name... i read the newspaper report and started to laugh.. this driver got hit, his truck dead, and yet he continues to film. He stated in the interview that the National Guard abandoned him.. yes, you can see the hummer pulling away from him.. watch the video again, turn up the sound and listen..... you can hear the familiar pop of the AK-47... you can also hear the sound of a .50 cal too... when i ran convoys over there we had several gun trucks in each convoy.. chances are that the truck that was responsible for this driver was fighting back the attack. The truck that was ahead of him was protecting the rest of the 18 wheelers in front of him.. he was truck #5... so there were 4 more trucks ahead of him in the kill zone.. and in the video you heard on the radio a call to pass truck 8... so there were several trucks in the kill zone..... folks are all up in arms about this and bashing the National Guard for this... folks shouldnt bash the soldiers for this mishap.. should bash the idiots for working for a company that wont let you carry a weapon.... i love how the media can spin everything out of control..
and i love how loose everyone uses the term IED... from what ive seen in that video, that was a grenade that went off.. all he took was some cracks in the windshield... the IED that hit me blew my windshield on to my lap... ha ha ha...
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Originally posted by Atoon
I can navigate myself down many riverside trails, coutry roads & even water ways that have no road signs, why???? Landmark Familiarity- Cuz someone showed me the way on previous trips, or I took the time to learn it myself by trail & error. The later being a luxory afforded to me by those providing me with my freedom.
It seems to me that this was not the first time this particular intended route had been taken. It also seems to me, that before you are selected as a convoy leader/navigator, you should be "qualified" for the position. Perhaps by riding along on prior escort missions on the same route. Just seems logical, but obviously- war is not always logical.
its not the convoy commanders decision on what route to take.. that information comes from higher based off intel gathered. some routes are cold for months, some are not.. they just happend to roll the convoy on a hot day.. i had to use the same route over and over again before... some things you just cant help.