Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: FUNKED1 on October 01, 2006, 05:17:12 PM
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must die.
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http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060926/BUSINESS01/609260391/-1/PRINT
Is this why you hate him you crazy little rascal?
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Chevy commercial
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I'm sure you've caught the attention of several law enforcement agencies :D
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
must die.
No surprise there. Funked issuing a fatwa. Thinks he's a radical Muslim now.
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ululululululululululululululu
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So a guy writes a patriotic song and you wish harm upon him, Lead by example I guess.. Glad my children dont live in your school district..
So if a student comes to your class with an american flag shirt do you suspend him for a week? But the Mexican flag tshirts are probably ok right...?
This is why I tell everyone I know to get thier kids out of public school at any cost!!
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Originally posted by T0J0
This is why I tell everyone I know to get thier kids out of public school at any cost!!
for us, 15k a year is a little TOO costly. Hence im a retarded PS kid :D
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4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated
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I wonder how many people actually get teary-eyed and start feeling patriotic....over a ****ING CAR COMMERCIAL!
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Well, if zepplin can sell cadillacs...
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vouchers... we need to quit electing democrats and get a good voucher system going.
We are all being cheated by the whole public school system and it's arrogant teachers union.
With vouchers we will finaly get some worthwhile learning for our children.
lazs
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Our current public school system is over-priced daycare...
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Originally posted by lazs2
vouchers... we need to quit electing democrats and get a good voucher system going.
We are all being cheated by the whole public school system and it's arrogant teachers union.
With vouchers we will finaly get some worthwhile learning for our children.
lazs
That won't solve the problem. You will create elite schools in rich areas, and bad ones in poor areas. Won't be any better than it is now
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why would that not be better? At least some kids would get an education...
some is better than none.
lazs
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Originally posted by Sixpence
That won't solve the problem. You will create elite schools in rich areas, and bad ones in poor areas. Won't be any better than it is now
I must disagree. When the poor have vouchers they are no longer poor in the eyes of an enterprising private school. If necessary I'm sure there would be many willing to bus those kids in a "poor" area to a school in a "rich" area. Strict standards will hopefully be maintained regardless and kids that can't or won't conform are just sol which is the way it should be.
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all kids would get the same voucher amount and it should be less than what the public school wastes but more than enough for a myriad of private schools.
lazs
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There really is no valid argument opposing vouchers. Teachers have come up with some lame arguments but their opposition is really nothing more than them trying to protect their job security. I can empathize with this but since our public schools have done and are doing such a lousy job I have no sympathy.
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I think that public schools and teachers have proven that they, like anyone else, are not capable of governing a monopoly... that, like all monopolies that are so powerfull.. they are harmfull to the host.
lazs
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Well, who pays the voucher, the feds, the state, or the city or town? Will all the private schools be required to do criminal background checks for hires? Will their salaries pay enough to hire good teachers, and if they can't, then what? I know local private schools are 4-5k a year just to get in(that was a few years ago)
Now, I have nothing against a voucher system if it works. Before we scrap the system and throw ourselves from the frying pan into the fire, it would be good to see it work first, or at least know how it works. I can't make judgement if I don't know.
I have no complaints yet where I am at. My two young ones are in a pretty good school, they are in small classes and the teachers are good. They look forward to going every day. So you would have to show me how better it would be before I pull the school out from under their feet.
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Vouchers? You mean like food stamps for education? Socialists...
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Vouchers? You mean like food stamps for education? Socialists...
I know you're joking but I feel compelled to point out the discrepancy in your statement. Public education is already like food stamps to the poor. We just want somewhere to spend them other than the government commissary which offers only moldy cheese and stale bread.
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luckster hit it but I would add that education is considered something that most people in the U.S. feel is worth funding.
While that in no way makes it less socialist... it is tolerated (like the military) for the good of the country... Now, public schools and the monopoly they have had control of since the beggining are doing such a poor job that to get the best deal we can for the people... we need to look around and break their stranglehold....
It is like having only one contractor for all government building projects.... eventually they will become so corrupt and arrogant that we would have to get rid of them and install some sort of bid process.
The whole education system is just at that point... they need some competition for results and methods. Parents need more say in what kind of school they will send their children to and... we simply need a lot better results for the buck.
lazs
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Originally posted by lukster
I know you're joking but I feel compelled to point out the discrepancy in your statement. Public education is already like food stamps to the poor. We just want somewhere to spend them other than the government commissary which offers only moldy cheese and stale bread.
Sounds like a half assed solution to me. Just privatize it, Librules.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Sounds like a half assed solution to me. Just privatize it, Librules.
Of course we already have private schools and even allow for home schooling. I'm not sure about private schools but I am certain that home schooled kids average much higher scholastically than do publicly schooled kids. Would I grant vouchers to pay parents of home schooled kids? Not unless the kids are regularaly tested and meet required standards.
While I don't know for sure how private schools compare to public schools I'm betting it's favorable. Who would deny kids a chance for a better education? That's not a rhetorical question.
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i just saw the commercial and all I could say was wow....:confused:
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By privatize it I mean get the government out of it completely. No vouchers or any other form of handouts.
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But the schools, of course, would still get government tax-derived funding?
So what you'd have is schools still getting the same money but no federal oversight at all?
Oh, yeah...that'd work.
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What part of "get the government out of it completely" did you misunderstand?
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No tax dollars whatsoever to schools?
How's THAT work? You going to donate your time?
How many lower class kids will attend?
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Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water. Lazs mentioned that some socialization here may not be a bad thing and I agree. Let's continue to collect taxes for education but let's add some accountability by supporting the producers, those providing a monetarily efficient quality education. Since when has competition ever been a bad thing?
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So basically you guys are socialists?
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
So basically you guys are socialists?
I'm pretty antisocial, just ask my wife. ;)
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We're mired deep in socialism. You can't change overnight.
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I'll never understand you lefties. :)
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I'll never understand the lack of accountability.
You take a job, claim you can do something...why be offended if your performance is critiqued? If you're good..so what?
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LOL battling straw men :)
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You really think our schools are accountable?
Pfffft.
It's why professional educators hate the voucher idea so much. It finally would introduce accountability.
No dictatorship wants to allow the citizens to vote with their feet. School dictatorships are no different.
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Originally posted by lukster
some socialization here may not be a bad thing and I agree.
I think it should be strictly need-based. For the very poor.
For the rest of America, confiscating income and returning it (minus "administrative expenses" etc) in the form of a voucher makes no sense. Let people keep their money and spend it as they wish.
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Originally posted by Toad
You really think our schools are accountable?.
No, I was comparing my straw man (Toad and Lukster are commies) to your straw man (Funkypants fears accountability).
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You built two strawmen for the price of one.
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The outcry for vouchers stems from the lack of school accountability.
No straw there; it's all whole-wheat grain.
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A straw man is where one person expects another to defend opinions or statement that the latter hasn't expressed.
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I expect you to agree, not defend. :)
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Well as a "professional educator" it sure looked like you were putting words in my mouth.
I thought it was clear from my statements that I support a system which would make schools accountable to an even greater degree than voucher programs.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
A straw man is where one person expects another to defend opinions or statement that the latter hasn't expressed.
I was trying to be funny, I'll never learn.
There was only one strawman and it was yours claiming we are socialists because we aren't ready to completely tear down the only structure in place for education, but I know you know that.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Well as a "professional educator" it sure looked like you were putting words in my mouth.
I thought it was clear from my statements that I support a system which would make schools accountable to an even greater degree than voucher programs.
I don't believe it's possible to make schools more accountable than to give their students to another when they fail.
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Parents still won't have enough control with vouchers. Just like with foodstamps the state will retain control over the products for which you may redeem your voucher. You'll have a list of schools which meet local/state/federal standards which will be controlled by the same assclowns who control things now.
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Originally posted by lukster
I was trying to be funny, I'll never learn.
I was accusing Toad not you, sorry for the confusion.
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Just the threat of real competition will force some public schools out of their lethargy.
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What other option is currently on the table besides vouchers?
Business as usual is a disaster.
Vouchers might or might not be better.
Hmmm... known disaster vs possible improvement.
Let me ponder that one a while.
I'm done.
Vouchers.
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Originally posted by lukster
Just the threat of real competition will force some public schools out of their lethargy.
If buyers are rational then this is true. Most of the parents I deal with just want their kid to get a good grade, so I'm skeptical. I think they will just go for the cheapest, easiest school.
I think vouchers could help things but I'd rather we just go all the way. Half-assing everything is what's got this country so screwed up.
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Originally posted by Toad
What other option is currently on the table besides vouchers?
On the table in this thread or among the electorate?
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Something that has at least a chance with the electorate and is currently being discussed at least as much as vouchers.
Educate me, O Teacher!
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Originally posted by Toad
Something that has at least a chance with the electorate and is currently being discussed at least as much as vouchers.
In other words, anything BUT my option. :)
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Fixed it... yours isn't really being discussed.
Or, if it is, the discussion hasn't made it out here to the cow pastures yet.
The thought of the government directly giving the people tax money!
Just where do you think that money comes from mister? We can't just be giving the people's money back to the people now! Shape up!
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Government never should be allowed to confiscate that money in the first place. Taking it away and giving it back just... costs money.
Regardless, I doubt vouchers would be any worse than the current system, so you have my blessing.
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From the rooftops, brudda!
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VFTR :aok
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Well, who pays the voucher, the feds, the state, or the city or town? Will all the private schools be required to do criminal background checks for hires? Will their salaries pay enough to hire good teachers, and if they can't, then what? I know local private schools are 4-5k a year just to get in(that was a few years ago)
Now, I have nothing against a voucher system if it works. Before we scrap the system and throw ourselves from the frying pan into the fire, it would be good to see it work first, or at least know how it works. I can't make judgement if I don't know.
I have no complaints yet where I am at. My two young ones are in a pretty good school, they are in small classes and the teachers are good. They look forward to going every day. So you would have to show me how better it would be before I pull the school out from under their feet.
Ok, I gave the voucher advocates a chance to answer some questions, and all I got was "competition will make it better". Sorry, but that isn't going to sway me away from the school my kids are in now.
Again, when I priced private schools a few years back, it was 4-5k a year just to get in. Am I going to get a voucher for 5k, or am I going to get $500.00 and be told to come up with the rest or send my kids to some dump? How will it work? Where is the plan? Will there be maximum class size? Will there be enough schools? Will the voucher be enough to produce more private schools? Will they go to low bids who will run them like slumlords?
My kids are in a good school, why would I risk throwing that away with all these unanswered questions? Not a chance.
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In Portland, the school system receives aproximately $9,300 for every student per year. A voucher system works that whomever receives the student gets that money.
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funked.. are you saying that the government should fund on schools at all and that the tax burden for every taxpayer should be reduced by that amount?
That would be ideal so far as anti socialist but... would work about as well as no army or federal police at all.
How do you charge people at the pump for education or armies? Do we all benifiet from educated Americans?
Perhaps not... perhaps those who can't afford education could do the work that we are importing illegals to do now?
We would have to decide that but....
In any case.. the public school system is broken and vouchers are a huge step towards the cure. Parents would not have absolute say because... parents aren't footing the absolute bill... the people are... many who have no children are footing the bill. sooooooo.... they have a right to expect "standards" for their money.... just as we all have the right to expect our gas tax money to build roads that meet standards.
We contract out for roads. are roads more important than the education of our children? again... we have to decide that.
It would make sense to have a vote on if and how we fund schools. Everyone pays... everyone votes.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
In any case.. the public school system is broken and vouchers are a huge step towards the cure.
lazs
Well, I guess that depends on where you live, the school my kids are in is great.
Mini says he would get a $9300.00 voucher for the year, so at least I got one question answered. But a alot go unanswered.
How can you say a voucher system will work without showing me how it will work? Show me the plan, the whole plan. How can you expect people to vote for a blind item?
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To start the plan is simple. Let those who want to send their kids to a private school apply for a voucher. If the school meets established state requirements then a portion of the money paid to the public school for that student in their current district is redirected to the private school of choice.
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This is one of the best schools in Texas imo. Used to be one of my customers and I have spent some time on their campus. They are expensive but based on what I've seen you should still be able to get quality education for what is being spent by public schools.
http://www.smtexas.org/admission/affording/
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Originally posted by lukster
To start the plan is simple. Let those who want to send their kids to a private school apply for a voucher.
Ok, who builds these private schools to start and who funds them?
If the school meets established state requirements
Ok, so these schools will be regulated? What will those regulations be? Maximum class size? Criminal background checks for anyone employed or contracted by these schools? Will one company be allowed to have more than one school in a city? Can one company own all the schools and have a monopoly?
Will these schools be allowed to work as a business and go public? Will they cut corners for profit? Will they be allowed to work as a non profit and should they be?
I could go on and on with questions, it's not simple at all. What if it doesn't work, then what?
It is disturbing to think that people would vote for something and have no idea what the results will be.
Show me. Take a city, Portland, and let them do it for a period of 2 years, show me it works. Then I could make a decision with some peace of mind.
My kids go to a good school, I am not going to change that for something I have no idea will work or be better for them. I can't take that risk.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
To start the plan is simple. Let those who want to send their kids to a private school apply for a voucher.
Ok, who builds these private schools to start and who funds them?
If the school meets established state requirements
Ok, so these schools will be regulated? What will those regulations be? Maximum class size? Criminal background checks for anyone employed or contracted by these schools? Will one company be allowed to have more than one school in a city? Can one company own all the schools and have a monopoly?
Will these schools be allowed to work as a business and go public? Will they cut corners for profit? Will they be allowed to work as a non profit and should they be?
I could go on and on with questions, it's not simple at all. What if it doesn't work, then what?
It is disturbing to think that people would vote for something and have no idea what the results will be.
Show me. Take a city, Portland, and let them do it for a period of 2 years, show me it works. Then I could make a decision with some peace of mind.
My kids go to a good school, I am not going to change that for something I have no idea will work or be better for them. I can't take that risk.
There are already in place many private schools, at least in Texas. I was not suggesting that the state regulate these schools. Only that if they want their students to receive vouchers the school should meet state standards for education. The same testing being used now in Texas public schools should suffice.
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Originally posted by lukster
There are already in place many private schools, at least in Texas. .
So, there are enough private schools to accept every public student? Where you get this info?
Here in Saugus there is not one private school, and the surrounding cities only have one or two and could never handle the influx of all the public students
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Originally posted by Sixpence
So, there are enough private schools to accept every public student? Where you get this info?
Here in Saugus there is not one private school, and the surrounding cities only have one or two and could never handle the influx of all the public students
Are you suggesting that there will be a huge run on private schools because everyone wants out of the public school system? If so then I think the sooner we grant vouchers the better. Private enterprise has a way of rising to the challenge.
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Originally posted by lukster
Are you suggesting that there will be a huge run on private schools because everyone wants out of the public school system?
So, we are going to have both? This gets more confusing by the second. If you do away with the public system, where do they go?
Private enterprise has a way of rising to the challenge.
And this is your convincing argument? Well you are failing to convince me.
You fail to answer many of the questions and provide no plan to how it will work. And you want me to pull the rug(school) from under my kids feet for this?
The truth is, you have no idea how it will work and are just making a blind argument.
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Of course we'll have both, at least for a while. We have both now. I suppose that private schools must be much more common in Texas than from wherever you hail.
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Originally posted by lukster
Of course we'll have both, at least for a while.
Well, who gets to go to the private schools?
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Of course we'll have both, at least for a while.
Well, who gets to go to the private schools?
Whoever wants to. That's the point of vouchers. As is now, only those who can afford to send their kids to private school do so.
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Originally posted by lukster
I was not suggesting that the state regulate these schools. Only that if they want their students to receive vouchers the school should meet state standards for education.
One thing to think about: state standards ARE regulation.
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Originally posted by lukster
Whoever wants to. That's the point of vouchers. As is now, only those who can afford to send their kids to private school do so.
So everyone can go? We are going in circles
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
One thing to think about: state standards ARE regulation.
Yes but the regulation should be limited to specific academic standards and should be mandatory only for those seeking vouchers.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
So everyone can go? We are going in circles
Everyone who can find a private school willing to take them can go. Certainly it will take time for private schools to completely replace public schools but I don't really expect that to happen anyhow, do you?
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Originally posted by lukster
Yes but the regulation should be limited to specific academic standards and should be mandatory only for those seeking vouchers.
What about criminal background checks? Can one company own all the private schools? And if one does, is that not a monopoly all over again?
Everyone who can find a private school willing to take them can go.
But if everyone wants to go and there isn't room in the private schools, who decides who goes to private and who goes to public? What, the private school gets to decide who goes?
Too many unanswered questions, there is no plan. Let one city do it for 2 years and show me how it works
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A plan? That's exactly what we don't need, the government setting it up and controlling it.
If you have to wait for supply to meet demand how are you much worse off than today? As public schools lose students and their associated funding they will simply have to adapt.
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Originally posted by lukster
A plan? That's exactly what we don't need, the government setting it up and controlling it.
Show me the private plan, one that answers all my questions
If you have to wait for supply to meet demand how are you much worse off than today?
Where is the demand? You have not shown me anything to demand it, in fact, you have convinced me the good school my kids are in is much better than an unknown.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
A plan? That's exactly what we don't need, the government setting it up and controlling it.
Show me the private plan, one that answers all my questions
If you have to wait for supply to meet demand how are you much worse off than today?
Where is the demand? You have not shown me anything to demand it, in fact, you have convinced me the good school my kids are in is much better than an unknown.
I think you're being obstinate now. You were the one complaining that the private schools would not be able to support the demand for them. If there is no demand then there will be no one opting for the vouchers.
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Originally posted by lukster
I think you're being obstinate now.
lol, you can't answer questions and argue blindly and call me obstinate? That's pretty funny.
You were the one complaining that the private schools would not be able to support the demand for them.
I wasn't complaining about anything, I was asking a legit question. And again, what demand? If you can't answer legit questions about it, how can you expect people to vote for it?
If there is no demand then there will be no one opting for the vouchers.
Exactly, and there will be no vouchers because no one will vote for it
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I answered your questions the best I could. It all seems obvious to me but you may have a perspective I just ain't seein'.
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sixpense.. you would allways have the option of sending your kids to the public school so long as they met whatever academic standards were laid down.
As far as "what do we do if it doesn't work" well... last man standing... if the private schools don't come up to snuff on testing then they fall off the chart. lose acredidation and funding.
pretty simple really.
lazs