Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: WTC on October 02, 2006, 04:40:13 PM
-
Who would you blame for the attack on Pearl Harbor excluding the Japs.
Would you blame the cryptology team for not craking the naval code or the admiral for not puting the pacific fleet on full alert?(I'm assuming they didn't put the fleet in full alert)
-
Originally posted by WTC
Who would you blame for the attack on Pearl Harbor excluding the Japs.
Would you blame the cryptology team for not craking the naval code or the admiral for not puting the pacific fleet on full alert?(I'm assuming they didn't put the fleet in full alert)
The guy who said that the air armada heading to P harbor are just B-17s from the stateside.
-
I've always felt that Admiral Kimmel was unfairly maligned for what happened at Pearl Harbor. In effect, he was the victim of the "heads-must-roll" mentality that prevailed in Washington in the days after the attack.
Kimmel had put the fleet on alert on several occasions prior to Dec. 7, based on intelligence reports and orders forwarded from Washington. The latest communique from General Marshal wasn't delivered in time to make any difference.
In addition, Kimmel had repeatedly asked for long-range patrol aircraft to help secure the islands against attack, and was repeatedly refused.
What the man could have done differently is anyone's guess.
-
Originally posted by WTC
Who would you blame for the attack on Pearl Harbor excluding the Japs.
Would you blame the cryptology team for not craking the naval code or the admiral for not puting the pacific fleet on full alert?(I'm assuming they didn't put the fleet in full alert)
(http://www.allenmugs.com/beads/fishingT.jpg)
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
(http://www.allenmugs.com/beads/fishingT.jpg)
:huh
-
I would blame that nasty Roosevelt for forcing the Japanese to attack premptively in self defense by threatening them with a embargo on precious materials.....metals and oil :rolleyes:
-
Bait indeed! Who would you blame for the attack on Pearl, other than the people who attacked it, what a funny question.
I blame the Japanese.
J_A_B
-
A great book on the subject, exhaustively researched, is: At Dawn We Slept, by Gordon W. Prange
http://www.amazon.com/Dawn-Slept-Gordon-W-Prange/dp/0140157344
It led me to believe we should blame (for the success of the operation) a US military that grossly underestimated the “inferior” Japanese, by believing that while war was likely (imminent in fact) they wouldn't have the guts skill or Western know-how to actually pull off a Pearl Harbor. War, when it came, would be elswewhere in an operationally safer, more remote part of the Pacific. And, similarly, blame the Japanese (for the actual attack and outcome of the war that was not in their favor) who held us in contempt, and figured one good bloody nose was all it would take to bring our decadent inferior country to its knees for a suitable negotiated peace.
Once you are making decisions from this base of misperception, it becomes easy to overlook what was obvious in hindsight.
Charon
-
Had the USS Nimitz pressed on with its attack, with its arsenal of A-7s and F-14s, we could have prevented Pearl Harbor. But the time anomaly re-appeared and they had to return to 1981.
;)
(reference "The Final Countdown" movie)
-
Originally posted by Yeager
I would blame that nasty Roosevelt for forcing the Japanese to attack premptively in self defense by threatening them with a embargo on precious materials.....metals and oil :rolleyes:
he did that cause Japan was wrecking havoc on the Chinese in the mid/late 30s
-
Well, what fused it was Japanese nationalism.
The embargo left them with only a humiliating option.
The preparations, or rather lack of them, was a high-up command screw-up.
(The Brits already used that kind of attack on the Italian fleet, as well as that the U.S. already had radar sets on Hawai, - from the Brits I belive)
The radar and command events that sad morning were U.S. local screw up.
So, it was screwed. To make it worse, the thing was repeated to the USAAF under McArthur's command in the Phillippenes several hours later, and by that time the high command already knew of the hostilities. Still, them B17's were knocked out on the ground while standing parked tip-to-tip.
-
i blame chester earl garveston of 3241 chippewa lane, topeka kansas.
-
Putting the US Pacific Fleet on alert would not have stopped the raid, only lessened its vulnerability. Maybe asking a more narrowly defined Q would help, are you asking who to blame for starting the war? or who to blame for the Pearl Harbor disaster? one is political, the other military.
I will say I think that Admiral Kimmel was used as a scapegoat in the aftermath, but it was perhaps required to focus the blame, in order to move on and get into a different mind set. Thats not fair, but thats war.
-
Well, what fused it was Japanese nationalism.
The embargo left them with only a humiliating option.
Oh yes, lets just forget that the japanese had occupied Manchuria in 1931, and the Japanese attack on China in 1937. Ignore the military clashes between Japanese and Soviet troops in Mongolia in 1938-1939. Disregard the Japanese attempt to profit from Hitler's early victories in Europe by demanding that France allow it to occupy the French colonies of Indochina and when Japan demanded that Britain shut off the supply road from its colony of Burma to the Chinese.
Yes, we were at fault, giving them no option but to attack us.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by WTC
Who would you blame for the attack on Pearl Harbor excluding the Japs.
Would you blame the cryptology team for not craking the naval code or the admiral for not puting the pacific fleet on full alert?(I'm assuming they didn't put the fleet in full alert)
I'm goin with Slick Willy here... to busy getting it on in the Oval Office to care that "this is not a drill".
-
Originally posted by JB88
i blame chester earl garveston of 3241 chippewa lane, topeka kansas.
And he is also responsible for not returning my hedge trimmer :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
-
What type of dolt picks the nick "WTC"? Oh...that one.
-
not based on any facts, but just a gut feeling, i have to blame canada, they never liked us.
-
Originally posted by john9001
not based on any facts, but just a gut feeling, i have to blame canada, they never liked us.
:aok :rofl
-
the whitehouse knew it was going to happen...... but let it happen because it was the only way for the public to "allow" them to enter the war.
-
Originally posted by Overlag
the whitehouse knew it was going to happen...... but let it happen because it was the only way for the public to "allow" them to enter the war.
That's one theory. However, after reading about the subject a few years back, I'm convinced that FDR just got caught with his pants down (literally, he was cheating on his wife while serving in the white house) and at the risk of getting sidetracked..it sounds familiar...think Clinton/Lewinski and Bin Laden...:confused:
-
They called it "Roosevelts war" and the same type of conspiracy nuts that are convinced today that 911 was an inside job claimed that Roosevelt set the japanese up, forcing them to attack pearl harbor... Left the main fleet stacked up in the harbor row after row, sent the carriers on bogus missions to get them out of harbor. I have heard that tail repeated since 1968 over and over again...
Amazing how advanced we get and how little we change.... Accept back then the democrats backed locking people up in internment camps to protect us without due process and it was ok you know there was a war on and all, we had to protect the country you know...
-
They called it "Roosevelts war" and the same type of conspiracy nuts that are convinced today that 911 was an inside job claimed that Roosevelt set the japanese up, forcing them to attack pearl harbor...
Prang covers this in detail. Back then the initial conspiracy nuts were the Republicans during an election year dealing with a Democratic party that had been in the driver's seat under Roosevelt during the war. They needed to discredit his legacy, and by inference that of the Democratic party. This was conducted as part of the post war Congressional investigations into the attack, where various charges and suggestions were made as part of the overall blame game.
To a large part, such explinations were easier to accept by the public (and even many in the military) than "We screwed the pooch and the Japs kicked our ass"
Left the main fleet stacked up in the harbor row after row, sent the carriers on bogus missions to get them out of harbor.
This is a commonly stated deal by the conspiracy folk, but if you understand Naval philosophy at the time it doesn't hold water. Until Pearl Harbor, the battleship was still officially considered king of the fleet, even after Toranto. For this to make sense the bulk of the battleships would have been out on patrol, leaving less important units like the carriers in harbor.
Charon
-
Docking the ships in rows actually saved a couple of the BB's from taking major damage.
J_A_B
-
Marine General John F. Kinney's autoobiography Wake Island Pilot - which is a real kick bellybutton good book - says everyone knew it was coming, but didn't know exactly where & when and that there was not too much action on the intelligence as a result. Not too dissimlar to what went on in the USSR just before Barbarossa (except the soviet navy, they were prepared)
-
Originally posted by J_A_B
Docking the ships in rows actually saved a couple of the BB's from taking major damage.
J_A_B
Four ships sunk during the attack were later raised and returned to action, including the battleships California, West Virginia and Nevada.
IIRC, much usable material was salvaged from the Arizona, Oklahoma, and the old battleship Utah (which wasn't a tactical loss), including the two aft main turrets from Arizona.
-
Originally posted by Stringer
And he is also responsible for not returning my hedge trimmer :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
yep. he's a bad bad man.
-
The conspiracy nuts like to use PART of ONE sentence of ONE dispatch between Pearl Harbor and Washington to "tie together" the evil FDR conspiracy of bringing America into the war.
The exact quote escapes me, but basically it boils down to: let Japan make the first move.
What they omit--not just from the paragraph but the SAME SENTENCE--is that the dispatch went on to say "but NOT at the expense of your command."
That says to me the White House was issuing a clear order to allow Japan to be the aggressor--moral high ground, after all--but when the attack arrives come out kicking prettythang and taking names. NOT to sit there and take it UP the prettythang.
-
yeah, just so FDR could keep his "no foriegn wars" campaign pledge & shut up the america firsters :noid:noid:noid:furious:mad::furious:furious
-
There is no serious evidence, 60 years on now, that indicates anything of the sort took place in relation to the US letting itself be attacked. The only thing they can point to, which is common knowldege is the fact that US (and British) intel felt the Japanese were preparing for an attack somewhere in the Pacific/Asia area, but were not able to identify the exact timing, or exact target.
Singapore and Hong Kong were attacked almost at the same time as Pearl Harbor (within days) yet nobody accuses the British of deliberately "letting them". Interesting.
...The reason Japan attacked Pearl Harbor stemmed from their 1937 (2 years before WW2) invasion of China, and the ensuing oil embargo the USA placed on them. To suggest the USA was looking to sacrifice Pearl Harbors forces in order to have a war with Japan to get into WW2 is just flat wrong, and there is zip in the way of evidence or historical facts to back up such claims.
-
I'm surprised that no one mentioned the rather petty funding from Congress that held the navy pretty much in place due to lack of funds.
-
See Rule #7
-
"Canada had nothing to do with it"
Well, thanks for clearing us on that, now if we can just get those idiots sometimes on CNN to stop saying the 9-11 hijackers came from here, we will be thrilled.
We will take responsibility for Celine Dion. I ask for your understanding, and point out that Shania Twain at least looks good in a short dress, so lets call it even.
-
The Japanese didn't attack Pearl Harbour. It was a government conspiracy. The jap planes were T6's disguised to look like zeros. Here is the proof:
(http://www.midwaysailor2.com/redwing/tora-009b.jpg) That's Definitely a T6. All were flown by radio control from the ground.
Every knows the Japanese didn't have the ability to launch an attack like that.
Battleships were seen to explode with huge violence. Yet closer examination of photos show they were cardboard mockups in a studio. Actually the Nevada was not sunk and was later seen renamed the USS Missouri. The very ship on which the peace loving Japanese were forced to surrender.
Here is a perfectly sensible website which proves Roosevelt caused the whole of WW2. Him and his buddy Hitler.
Roosevelt is a Nazi (http://www.reformation.org/roosevelt-and-hitler.html)
-
Actually the last post is a joke.......no really. :aok
I came across that website while looking for pictures of exploding cardboard battleships.
It actually links Roosevelt to Bush and 9/11. The internet is full of nuts.:noid
-
Originally posted by WTC
See Rule #7
I think you need to learn the English Language and try again to get the point acrosss. Your post makes not a lick of sense. Don't throw "blame on other's" when you clearly live in a glass house. But that is usually how it goes.
-
Originally posted by cpxxx
Actually the last post is a joke.......no really. :aok
I came across that website while looking for pictures of exploding cardboard battleships.
It actually links Roosevelt to Bush and 9/11. The internet is full of nuts.:noid
lol!
I saw those CAF planes at the airshow last week in Fort Worth :D
-
Originally posted by WTC
See Rule #7
That's like blaming Americans for the 9/11 attack because we didn't convert to Islam.
-
I will clarify my own point on that, Japan's invasion of China lead them down the road to war...and so it is they who bear the responsibility. That was the point I was making re the oil embargo.
If Japans leadership wanted peace, they should have left China and Indochina.
-
The road to war was 50 years long and much more complex.
-
I wasnt writing a formal history paper on the BB Rolex.
-
zOMG teh japaneses were planning Pearl Harbour in the 1890s?!?!1/!!?!?/11!!!??(http://www.laster.it/forums/images/smiles/icon-slash.gif)one!slash:O :O :noid :O :noid
-
the hijackers were already in the US
-
Originally posted by Squire
If Japans leadership wanted peace, they should have left China and Indochina.
So if the "Western" leadership wanted peace they would have left Japan in it's state of isolation and not introduced it to the seduction of Imperialism by thrusting it upon them?
-
Damned if you did/do, damned if you don't/didn't. Good thing world opinion doesn't really mean all that much to most Americans. :)
-
Yeah but is the 1st ladys lap considered a "Bush Hog"?
:confused:
-
oh lol lmfao
-
Who would I blame beside Japan? Nobody. Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, nobody else, nobody made them do it, therefore its them I blame.
-
The Arizona was destroyed with controlled demolition, as part of a secret plan to modernise the Pacific fleet by SecNav Knox and SecWar Stimson. I have proof.
-
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
The Arizona was destroyed with controlled demolition, as part of a secret plan to modernise the Pacific fleet by SecNav Knox and SecWar Stimson. I have proof.
??? ^^^^^^^^???
I want what he's on