Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: 68slayr on October 03, 2006, 07:18:49 PM
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I've heard several arguments of ppl cherrypicking each other. I have also heard different defintions of a cherry pick.
I usually hear this
A cherry pick is when a guys stays high out of the fray and waits for a easy target. Once he finds a target he dives in BnZ style and then climbs back up or runs home.
Any other cherry pick type moves that i should be careful of?:noid
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Sounds about right, althouth I'd add that a picker generally 'picks' someone who is already in a fight with someone else. He gets the 'reward' of the kill, while having done little to none of the work for it.
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yeah Lgay7 take cherry picking to the next level, since there so fast theyll cruise around co-alt or even below you and try n cherry pick u.
(rule of fighting LA-7 is there is only a fight if they want to fight, because they can run anytime they feel like it)
so its pretty much a cherry picker disguised as a normal con who wants to fight. but he wont fight.
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Cherry picking is a careful art which takes time and dedication to master it's intricate form. Learn it. Love it. Touch it.
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Originally posted by Messiah
Cherry picking is a careful art which takes time and dedication to master it's intricate form. Learn it. Love it. Touch it.
:lol
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Cherry picking is all part of the game. Fly like a cherry.....some one will make a pie out of yah. :)
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A cherry, is one that is hung out at the top of his alt with speed near zero.
The picker... is the one that pops the cherry.
Not necessarily the one below him... More likely someone who has been on the sidelines waiting for an easy kill.
PLINK
:cool:
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My opinion is someone that sits high above the fight and waits until you're engaged and bnz's you. On the other hand I'll fly high cap over a wounded countryman headed to base and try to chase cons off of his tail OR come in with extra alt and E to protect a countryman but that means STAYING on the cons tail until he is dead or disengages. So I suppose what I mean here is that a cherry picker is trying to get easy scores a fellow pilot is someone that will put themselves in harms way and stay there until they've cleared someone elses six.
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It's common for anyone in this game to go through a "period" where cherry picking seems very fun. One can go land a bunch of cherried scalps and get many wtg's. I find it extremely lame that many vets continue to do this for years and find it not only acceptable but amusing and entertaining. Many of these "types" of vets will defend their actions with much vigor calling it flying "smart". On the other hand there are many of us "vets" that would find that to not only be very unentertaining, but just down right cheap to only fly that way everytime we logged on. This is not to say that one shouldn't start their sortie in that fashion finishing it on the deck fighting for your right to RTB. But those who never lose their alt and run even when they're above the enemy cons is usually the sign of an unconfident fighter. I hear many say, "Well back in WWII, you wouldn't take chances like losing your altitude or flying risky!" 1) I find reading about many real WWII fighter aces that did quite the contrary. Yes they flew smart, but also on many occasions you read of some of the best pilots taking great risk to defeat their enemies! 2) This is a game! In the game of Aces High II I found that getting into that situation where one should not be able to fly out intact, to be the type of adrenalin that makes the game much more enjoyable! More times than not I'll end a sortie by flying into a situation where survivability has less than a 5% chance, just to experience that kind of "fight for your life" adrenalin! Although I would like to express that this game is a game of to each his own and it is their $15, so this is just my take on it!
:aok
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'cherry picking' is just an all too easy excuse for being shot down by your own foolishness. there are furballing cherries, tactical cherries and of course there are score potato cherries, but at the end of the day the idea is to shoot people down and you got shot down.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
'cherry picking' is just an all too easy excuse for being shot down by your own foolishness. there are furballing cherries, tactical cherries and of course there are score potato cherries, but at the end of the day the idea is to shoot people down and you got shot down.
Agreed. Nice post Bat!
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Cherry picking usually involves a player who intends to work at landing his ride once ammo or fuel has been exhuasted. I do it... hell, most of my kills are of enemy who never knew I was there, but I'll fight too if the odds are right. I find the realism level to be higher, and the overall challenge far greater. But in the end, it's just another way to play.
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LOL, lovely thread. A cherry picker is an insult used to attempt to discredit the guy that killed ya cause you didnt check your 6. For every 'cherry picker' theres a dumbarnold cherry...
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Originally posted by Spatula
LOL, lovely thread. A cherry picker is an insult used to attempt to discredit the guy that killed ya cause you didnt check your 6. For every 'cherry picker' theres a dumbarnold cherry...
Another excellent post.
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LMAO look at the lamers come out! Many who "cherry pick" as a way of playing couldn't "fight" their way out of a wet paper bag one on one! But they sure will "fight" you in words if you simply state an opinion on the topic! :aok
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Originally posted by Spatula
LOL, lovely thread. A cherry picker is an insult used to attempt to discredit the guy that killed ya cause you didnt check your 6. For every 'cherry picker' theres a dumbarnold cherry...
Yep!! everytime i see text about cherry picking , i think to myself "what a moron. he didnt use his low speed adv to maneuver out of the way. now he has the cajones to whine about it..."
:aok
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By the way..i almost forgot my definition of cherrypicking..
CHERRY PICKED = You got shotdown!!!! So what??!?!?! Get over it and get a little E next time!!! AND resist the urge to type insults over ch200 because you sound like a 4 yo girl!
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Originally posted by FALCONWING
By the way..i almost forgot my definition of cherrypicking..
CHERRY PICKED = You got shotdown!!!! So what??!?!?! Get over it and get a little E next time!!! AND resist the urge to type insults over ch200 because you sound like a 4 yo girl!
1) Not all people who think players that cherry pick are lame will say that on 200!
2) My opinion is cherry picking is part of arial combat.
3) Another opinion of mine is that vets who do nothing but cherry pick are lame!
4) There are also many who just wait for one poor sap to get the enemy's E down fighting him, only to come blasting through and get the lame cherry kill the other guy worked hard for. There fore "stealing" the glory from the guy who worked for it. I think those types are lame as well! Just MHO!
:aok
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Originally posted by FALCONWING ...resist the urge to type insults over ch200 because you sound like a 4 yo girl!
Hmm, your use of females and children to form an insult is pretty weak, tuff guy. What next, gonna pick on old people? These boards would be more entertaining with more witty banter and less drivel.
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What if a few of us like to dog fight? How can we when there are 10 cherry pickers above and 10 guys in La7's diving in HO from 12k altitude? Tonight this guy and I had a nice dog fight going. We were into it about 4 or 5 minutes, and wouldn't you know...... here comes a cherry picker and kills me. Now this wasn't to cool for me, but you know, it wasn't to cool for the guy that I was fighting either. He was just about to close the turn and kill me. Lame lame cherry picker ruined it for both of us. I spent about 10 hours playing this game in the last two days looking for a dog fight. I think I found maybe 5 or 6. I think the guys that like to dog fight (the vets) give up and get so disgusted they just don't play very often. Either that or they can't dog fight because there is nothing but cherry pickers everywhere. How many pilots besides me like to dog fight? Maybe 5 or 6? If there is any more than that, I sure cant find any of them. Closest thing I came to dog fighting in the last 10 hours I played was about 50 times trying to sucker a cherry picker to come down and get me. But then as soon as I try to fight them they just fly away at 350 mph and go real hi again and try the same lame crap again. This is boring. The Internet can't really handle 450mph fighting. Any kills made this way is about like throwing a hand full of penny's in the air and then getting real excited when some of them land heads up. Boring!
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Originally posted by SkyRock
1) Not all people who think players that cherry pick are lame will say that on 200!
2) My opinion is cherry picking is part of arial combat.
3) Another opinion of mine is that vets who do nothing but cherry pick are lame!
4) There are also many who just wait for one poor sap to get the enemy's E down fighting him, only to come blasting through and get the lame cherry kill the other guy worked hard for. There fore "stealing" the glory from the guy who worked for it. I think those types are lame as well! Just MHO!
:aok
Totally agree.....
Too many never even try to get in harms way and just let others do the dirty work...... Those are the pickers that are lame...you know who you are.:mad:
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Does it start with "B", stick? ;)
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Originally posted by Clutz
What if a few of us like to dog fight? How can we when there are 10 cherry pickers above and 10 guys in La7's diving in HO from 12k altitude?
I can sympathise with this, and it does suck when you've been working away hard at someone, and someone else swoops in and kills ya. But thats just the way things are in AH2. You got yourself in that position. If you want a fair one-on-one scrap you can organise one in the DA or some empty bit of sky. No-one has an inalienable right to fight only those that they intend, in the order they intend, in the exact style they want them to, others WILL come and their styles WILL vary - learn to deal with that. Every style has its strengths and its weaknesses...
If you get yourself low n slow you can expect someone else will come along, and invariably they will have more E than you - you cant blame them for that.
What does it matter if you get 'picked' off by another furballer, or someone who come screaming down through the middle? The effect is the same, you get shot by someone you didnt expect. A failure of SA, is a failure of SA, not something that legitamises silly name-calling.
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if you die its always your fault. You should thank the picker for teaching you about SA. If you’re in a furball or an area with a lot of people, it’s guaranteed that you will eventually be at a disadvantage. If you don’t like it, go play in the DA . The MA is NOT about fair fights. It never has been. I never hear the really great sticks complain about getting picked. Funny.
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The major issue in cherrypicking is in you being a cherry.
Don't fly like a cherry, and you don't have to worry about cherrypickers.
Cherrypicking is a complex game of patience, timing, shooting, calculating ways for escape, and who doesn't master it try to diminish it, as often happens in life
:p
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Originally posted by BigR
if you die its always your fault. You should thank the picker for teaching you about SA. If you’re in a furball or an area with a lot of people, it’s guaranteed that you will eventually be at a disadvantage. If you don’t like it, go play in the DA . The MA is NOT about fair fights. It never has been. I never hear the really great sticks complain about getting picked. Funny.
1) The post is not about who's "fault" it is.
2) Nobody is saying cherrypicking isn't "fair".
3) You obviously don't "fly" with the great sticks, as "cherry picking" is one of the few things I do hear them comment about! Many will not comment about it on 200, but on squad or among friends the comments will go something like this:
Great stick #1- You still up?
Great stick #2- Nah got picked by teh lamer picker dweeb
Great stick #1- Yeah, there's plenty of them over there
Great stick #2- What ride next?
4) Like I said earlier, its part of the growing phase and perfectly fair and acceptable gameplay.:aok
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Originally posted by stegor
The major issue in cherrypicking is in you being a cherry.
Don't fly like a cherry, and you don't have to worry about cherrypickers.
Cherrypicking is a complex game of patience, timing, shooting, calculating ways for escape, and who doesn't master it try to diminish it, as often happens in life
:p
Let me give you a "for instance":
You fly around and the furball is so enticing right about 5k. There are two enemies above the furball at 11k. The two are very timid and everytime you fly near them and start to climb they fly off. You finally say well I'll just have to watch them. You engage in the furball and get into it with several cons. It's a long hard fight and you've killed one and are fighting for your life with the other when, the 190 who wouldn't play comes through at 500mph and takes your vert stab. You saw him coming but said "F it" I would rather fight than "wait" or "chase". So you up another ride and head to the furball again! It's all fair and all good..................and extremely lame as well! :aok
Oh and btw, it takes about as long to master that "art" as does a newborn to learn how to go poopy!:aok
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I got an idea. What if we had an arena for each style of fighting. The Ho guys could have their own arena. I'm sure they would just love that. Crashing into each other at 450mph. Wow. Combined, that would be a 900 mph impact! The vulchers could have their on arena. It would be fun to watch them fly right over each other in the air without engaging just so they can fly to the nearest base and vulch each other 10 feet of the runway. The cherry pickers could have their on arena too! Hmmm? But who could they cherry pick? Each other? That one might not work. :rolleyes: Then the dog fighters could have their own arena, that would be way cool.
This is sarcastic, and I am whining a bit. I guess I am sad and disheartened because this is what I posted about 10 days ago and I wish it could be like this again.
Originally posted by Clutz
I have been working on my PC for the last couple of weeks so last night Friday was my first time with the new format.
I jumped in Late Arena around 10:00 pm central time. Was like 50, 52, 49 players of each side. I played for a couple of hours just fighter pilot. It was all dog fighting ever where I flew. Never took me more than two minutes to find a good fight. I didn't even need to look for them, they were everywhere. No vulching, no HO's, and no cherry picking. I didn't see a single incident of any of them at all. Everybody was so nice. I got a couple of salutes. Twice I almost got HO'ed but the pilots both times turned away (as I did) and continued the dog fight. I didn't see a single furball though (I like to BnZ furballs), :lol : It was more of a bunch of big, (and small) real loose, furball dog fights. It was the most fun I have had since I started this game I guess 4 or 5 months ago. Now I think I understand Pyro's terminology "arena health". Pyro.
But if we are good boys and girls, maybe we can get the old Fighter Town back for a day or two. :)
everybody at AH, I'm pleased as punch. At least so far! :D
I guess in my heart I knew it was a freak accident that this happened to me that night. Maybe I am wrong, but this is the way I think players should play. I espically like the part I said about people being nice. I get quite often in a good dog fight. And I enjoy losing a dog fight as much as I enjoy winning one, maybe even more. Never ever once has a HO'er or a vulcher or a cherypicker me, I wonder why?
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Im really just arguning for fun now but here goes...
i agree skyrock that once you are already in the situaion it is hard to climb up to their alt and catch them...
so what you do is you grab alt next flight ...may have to use a secondary launch base....you show up at thier alt and kill them!!! then when the skies are clear you can decend into the melee b4 other high alt planes show up.
look, there are a bucnh of different types of planes available to fly...many are not turn and burn planes (FW, 51, etc). do they have to anticipate the plane and type of fight going on b4 they launch into a darbar?
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this is cherry picking.. but it was also fun :aok
http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k45/fbplmmr/?action=view¤t=film10_partone3.flv&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch2clicky here (http://s85.photobucket.com/albums/k45/fbplmmr/?action=view¤t=film10_partone3.flv&refPage=&imgAnch=imgAnch2)
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Originally posted by drkorf
Hmm, your use of females and children to form an insult is pretty weak, tuff guy. What next, gonna pick on old people? These boards would be more entertaining with more witty banter and less drivel.
This would be drivel:lol
you've got me pegged ...im a chauvinist agist:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by SkyRock
Many will not comment about it on 200, but on squad or among friends the comments will go something like this:
Great stick #1- You still up?
Great stick #2- Nah got picked by teh lamer picker dweeb
Great stick #1- Yeah, there's plenty of them over there
Great stick #2- What ride next?
4) Like I said earlier, its part of the growing phase and perfectly fair and acceptable gameplay.:aok
Heh, I have heard such conversations.
I also agree that there's nothing inherently wrong with the pickers, except that I'd think they would get bored after a short while.
- oldman
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I think that skyrock has got the defenition down to a tee.
If you read every post he has made in this thread you will have the defenition of a cherry picker. I believe that his defenitions simply make some people uncomfortable.
I would add that a cherry picker is someone who never gets low enough or slow enough that he can't run away from any plane in the area at will.
skyrock nails it on saying that it is an excuse to use "WWII" pilots as an excuse... very few flew so timidly and none that I know of did it all the time... they were very brave and confident men... to claim that your timid cherry picking is in imitation of them is insulting to their memories.
The "skill" involved in cherry picking is being able to select the fastest plane and the patience to climb and wait for the perfect fight to cherry pick... some gunnery skill is needed. You also need to know when there is the slightest chance someone will catch you so that you pull up your skirts and run all the way home... often begging for help from countrymen.
skyrock fights like he describes... he may come in high in a mediocre plane but ends up using acm low and slow with the red guys. You get better that way. In any case... he gets it. If you don't get it... reread his posts in this thread. If you get angry or embarassed reading them... you might be a cherry picker.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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the umpteenth time someone writes: you don't fly the way I want......ecc
but this time the variation is: ok I admit it is fair but you are a lamer anyway
:rofl
so amusing
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Originally posted by stegor
the umpteenth time someone writes: you don't fly the way I want......ecc
but this time the variation is: ok I admit it is fair but you are a lamer anyway
:rofl
so amusing
I don't think cherrypicking someone elses fight is fair at all! I think it's lame! I see it plenty where a friendly has been fighting the enemy for a few minutes and is just about to down him when the cherrypicker friendly swoops in and towers the enemy. Very impolite, very selfish, and very very lame! It happens quite often but sometimes the CHPker will apologize and say hey you deserved that guy and I won't do that again to you. It's going to happen. It's part of the learning curve. It actually helps ones gunnery. It's the vets that do it "all" the time that are extrememly lame. :aok
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cherrypicking someone else's fight is so lame , I agree with you (sometimes it can happens inconsciously, still agree)
But we were arguing about cherrypicking in general, not between same country.
Anyway I'm with you in thinking that playing exclusively cherrypicking is lame, while there's nothing lame in cherrypicking per se
Likewise is lame always HOing, always praying and spraying, always gangbanging, always vulching, turning , ack hugging.... every single matter can be used in a particular condition, is the always that maybe differs the veteran from the lamer
Sky
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If one grinds an axe long enough, there won't be any axe remaining. The 'lamers' and other malcontents are what makes the diverse flying environment in AH. Don't want to deal with cherry pickers? Don't fly around them.
I appreciate their patience and enjoy spoiling their opportunities. Of course, depending on the situation, I will cherry pick, vulch, HO, run, alt monkey, sprial climb, and bail! After all, AH is just a game!
I remember threads when people argued that AH wasn't a game! Those were funny in an absurd way but were really just an excuse for player bashing on this BBS. Some people like that sort of thing; it's their idea of 'fun'.
Regards,
Malta
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Originally posted by SkyRock
I don't think cherrypicking someone elses fight is fair at all! I think it's lame! I see it plenty where a friendly has been fighting the enemy for a few minutes and is just about to down him when the cherrypicker friendly swoops in and towers the enemy. Very impolite, very selfish, and very very lame! It happens quite often but sometimes the CHPker will apologize and say hey you deserved that guy and I won't do that again to you. It's going to happen. It's part of the learning curve. It actually helps ones gunnery. It's the vets that do it "all" the time that are extrememly lame. :aok
You just got through with telling me "no one said it wasnt fair" :rolleyes: And when i said you never hear great sticks complaining about it , i meant on 200. Of course people are gonna vent to their buddies. But they also have to understand it could have been avoided... Their actions led up to them being picked. Most people in furballs realize they will get picked evintually but continue to fight down there anyway because they find it fun, and they just accept it as part of the game. I get pissed too when im in a good fight and someone swoops down and kills me. I know its my own fault though and I dont whine about it. Im not saying you do either. My first post was not directed at you, it was a general comment.
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slayer has described one of the main tactix of a P-38 Pilot.
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Ok i'm hearing two things
1.A high flying pilot (cherry)who is killing low slow planes. He gets killed (the picker)
2 a high flying pilot who is killing low slow planes. When he kills these planes its a "cherrypick"
which one?:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by 68slayr
Ok i'm hearing two things
1.A high flying pilot (cherry)who is killing low slow planes. He gets killed (the picker)
2 a high flying pilot who is killing low slow planes. When he kills these planes its a "cherrypick"
which one?:rolleyes:
A true cherry pick is when two planes are fighting each other and a third plane comes in and blasts one of the two fighting planes to smitherines! I'll give you a perfectly good example of how it happens in the MA: A spit (spit #1)pilot looks for enemy cons to engage. He spots a 38 about 6k to 7k above him. The 38 pilot does not look interested and appears to be flying off away from the spit(#1). {this is a ploy used by cherry pickers} The spit(#1) then sees a dot on the horizon. He flies to the dot and finds it's another spit(#2) and engages him. They go vert and double their immels at the top. The fight evolves into a rolling scissors and right at the top of the spit's(#1) roll-over he gets towered by the 38 which was waiting for just such a moment. Now if your the spit(#2) pilot, you should be outraged that the 38 came in a took the kill from you after you had dropped all you E and were in a stall fight. This leaves you vulnerable to any other enemies in the area. The 38 pilot has saved his E and is booming back up to 7k. If you are the spit(#1) pilot you think the 38 didn't want you when you were able to give your attention to him and maybe fight back, so you think he's lame. Now, the true lameness of the act comes in the form of someone defending it, I never defend my cherrypicking and even feel not worthy of the kill when I do cherry pick. [Cherry200: You lame cherry picker!
Me200: Yeah that was a cheap shot!
Cherry200:
Me200: ]
Yes, you heard me right, I still cherry pick occasionally. But I am man enough to call it a cheap shot which is exactly what it is to not only the enemy who gets cherried but to the friendly that was putting his arse on the line actually fighting the enemy. I have in the past invited many of AH's cherry pick artists to the DA and find that most(not all mind you) but as much as 90% of them (who actually show up) don't know their arse from a hole in the ground when it comes to fighting one on one! Some of them have been playing for years and have high fighter ranks! LMAO! :aok
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alot of typing for a simple thing Skyrock, and inacurate because there are many types of cherry picks. to say that cherry picking in general is a cheap tactic is laughable in a WW2 simulation/game.
cherry picked simply emplies that the 'cherry' was an easy kill. no matter if engaged in a highly skilled ACM fight or simply roped up between two wingmen, its all the same.
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just out of curiosity how many post on this thread were bored people at work who wish they were home playing AH2? cause it seems like you all have been repeating yourselves.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
alot of typing for a simple thing Skyrock, and inacurate because there are many types of cherry picks. to say that cherry picking in general is a cheap tactic is laughable in a WW2 simulation/game.
cherry picked simply emplies that the 'cherry' was an easy kill. no matter if engaged in a highly skilled ACM fight or simply roped up between two wingmen, its all the same.
Not inaccurate when I only used one example. Cherry picking is a cheap tactic if at least to the guy who was fighting the cherry! I differ with you on your definition of a cherry pick! I believe I used an excellent example of what the term, "cherry pick" means!:aok
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Originally posted by 68slayr
Ok i'm hearing two things
1.A high flying pilot (cherry)who is killing low slow planes. He gets killed (the picker)
2 a high flying pilot who is killing low slow planes. When he kills these planes its a "cherrypick"
which one?:rolleyes:
cherry is the guy getting blasted.
i say don't be a cherry. it really means different things to different people. many just blurt it out becuase they are frustrated with what just happened. when i think about dweeby people cherrypicking, i think about people staying at alt, diving in, and regain perch. they dive again when they think the person, or people, are not paying attention. mostly just looking for the easiet kills possible at all times.
the way i look at it, you won't gain respect for cherrypicking, nor should you expect any....it's not all that difficult to do.
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Some people will try to say that 'cherrypicking' is ANY case in which a high airplane attacks a lower airplane and doesn't give the target much of a chance to shoot back. Of course, such opinions are uniformly silly. No rational person expects a 190D-9 to try to stallfight a Spit 5 just because the guy in the Spit gets mad if the 190 doesn't give him an easy kill.
Traditionally, 'cherrypickers' were pilots who made a habit of only attacking enemy airplanes that were already involved in combat. This sort of cherrypicker is a piece of scum who will be hated not just by his enemies, but by his countrymen as well because he 'steals' the kills that his countrymates work for. That enemy who orbits 10K above you and simply will not engage until you're already busy with 2 other enemies--yeah, he's a cherrypicker, and chances are his 'allies' wish he'd go away. Nothing is more frustrating than fighting an opponent and slowly gaining the upper hand, only to have some dweeb zoom in and blow your target away at the last second--particularly when said dweeb watched the entire fight from a distance and didn't engage at all until your target was all but doomed.
Everyone will occasionally attack targets that are already involved in combat. That's fine. You can identify the cherrypicker because he *only* attacks such targets--he's incapable (either due to fear or lack of skill) of actually killing stuff on his own. Cherrypickers are also notorious for orbiting their own airfields at high altitude just to pick off the occasional inbound ground attacker (or, in especially lame cases, let the ack do the work and get prox kills).
J_A_B
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It's good to be the picker, it's bad to be the cheery BUT we've all been there, weather by accident or design. It's the MA...it happens.
Think of this :- 80% of pilots shot down in WWII did NOT see what shot them down. Boom ,,,,,bang ,,,,,bail,,,,, WTF !
Also 90% of dog fights didn't last more than a minute. Everyone got their snap shots off then got the F### outta there. To be a living ace in WWII was all about being as crafty and sneaky as possible.
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"Think of this :- 80% of pilots shot down in WWII did NOT see what shot them down."
This is true, but not in the sense some people think. Most of them got shot down because their attention was focused elsewhere, such as being concerned with another target in a dogfight. You see this same thing happen in an AH 'furball'...most the guys who get shot down don't realize someone is saddling up on their 6 until it's too late because thy're too busy watching something else.
J_A_B
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The real issue isn't really cherry pickers vulchers or Ho'ers per say. They do add a dimension to the game that is interesting. If they are kids doing it, noobs or whatever, then that is fun and they should have some fun. I like this. But man, when its so many, or even worse, when you have to become one of them to survive in the game. I think the game by nature and the way it is set up makes this type of fighting happen automatically. I think this is one thing HT was trying to fix? maybe???? That "arena health" thing Pyro was talking about.
I think some peoples complaints about these flying techniques come from the arena being to full. 300 people in the Ma and they all pick two areas of the map to fly from, basically. Why is this? Take a look at the pic I made below, (:lol , silly me).
The black guys are at 4 or 5K and the red guys are the cherry pickers/alt monkeys at 12k respectively. The blue dots are me and another guy having a civil fight. :D Notice the alt monkeys are very upset the two of us are not conforming to standard game play. :lol I guess I better "Watch my SA", blah blah blah, which basically means stop dog fighting.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1006_1159988100_ahpic1.jpg)
Within this scenario that I made, which is quite typical, the only way to fly this map is to fly as a hi alt monkey, (if you cant beat them join them) or Bnz the furball and bail out real quick. Or, go find an empty room, fly around for a half hour, and hope you can find a couple of good guys to fight with.
How about if we have caps on the number of people that can take off from a base? Just a guess? I don't know? My view point is very limited. All I want to do really is find a good fight with some nice folks in the MA.
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Originally posted by plink
A cherry, is one that is hung out at the top of his alt with speed near zero.
The picker... is the one that pops the cherry.
Not necessarily the one below him... More likely someone who has been on the sidelines waiting for an easy kill.
PLINK
:cool:
The best Cherries are the other Cherry pickers. If the other guy thinks he's got more E than everyone else, he tends to be an easy and fun kill.
-Sik
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Originally posted by pluck
cherry is the guy getting blasted.
i say don't be a cherry. it really means different things to different people. many just blurt it out becuase they are frustrated with what just happened. when i think about dweeby people cherrypicking, i think about people staying at alt, diving in, and regain perch. they dive again when they think the person, or people, are not paying attention. mostly just looking for the easiet kills possible at all times.
the way i look at it, you won't gain respect for cherrypicking, nor should you expect any....it's not all that difficult to do.
Well said!:aok
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pickers are everywhere..everyone does it some if not alot...my beef is the guy who 100% of the time flys a solo bird ( as in he has no dedicated wingman to work strategy with) above a furball using no wingmen..he sees bait as both friendly and enemy..could care less about any type of fight except his 400 mph plus cherry run on the furball. He will often boom you when your alone. miss. and wait for others to engage you, run straight home,or find a target that is engaged.
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The funny part of cherry picking is not the picker but the dumb cherries being picked. Not only picked cherries they are but even whining. Thats great.
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Originally posted by jaxxo
pickers are everywhere..everyone does it some if not alot...my beef is the guy who 100% of the time flys a solo bird ( as in he has no dedicated wingman to work strategy with) above a furball using no wingmen..he sees bait as both friendly and enemy..could care less about any type of fight except his 400 mph plus cherry run on the furball. He will often boom you when your alone. miss. and wait for others to engage you, run straight home,or find a target that is engaged.
And BTW, you can cherry pick with a wingie. Two 190 can do a classic maneuver. They dive down at 3-5 sec interval. The first one is (usually) easily avoided by the prey with a break turn. The wingie can clearly see where the prey breakes and smoke him.
But this is old theory, the basic of dogfight. Maybe old hands remember it, you know, when MA was not the furballer, no SA, fest it is :)
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Originally posted by SkyRock
I hear many say, "Well back in WWII, you wouldn't take chances like losing your altitude or flying risky!" 1) I find reading about many real WWII fighter aces that did quite the contrary. Yes they flew smart, but also on many occasions you read of some of the best pilots taking great risk to defeat their enemies!
Like McGuire or Kearby?
Sorry, couldn't help cherrypicking your post.
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A quote from Duane Beeson, 334th FS/4th FG:
"My own idea is that overshooting is a very good thing. Speed is good and should never be lost...when attacking, I would say plan to overshoot him if possible...an attack of this kind prevents the combat from turning into a dogfight..."
For whatever it's worth.
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Originally posted by gatt
The funny part of cherry picking is not the picker but the dumb cherries being picked. Not only picked cherries they are but even whining. Thats great.
Lamer talk! this post is about the definition of the term cherry picking. you have also(if you read the posts) heard descriptioins of cherrypicking. I gave an opinion and I would go as far to say that you wouldn't last 15 seconds in a duel with a good fighter! There is a big difference in cherry picking and fighting. :aok
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Originally posted by Stoney74
A quote from Duane Beeson, 334th FS/4th FG:
"My own idea is that overshooting is a very good thing. Speed is good and should never be lost...when attacking, I would say plan to overshoot him if possible...an attack of this kind prevents the combat from turning into a dogfight..."
For whatever it's worth.
There is a big difference in "fighting" and cherrypicking! In my opinion, cherrypicking all the time is an unrisky, incredibly boring, and un satisfyingly lame way to play this game! Every now and then winging up and cherrypicking can be fun! It's just nowhere near as exhilirating as a great dogfight! Stoney for your post!:aok
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I have also heard people complain if say, a rook is chasing a knight and another knight comes in and kills the rook. Not pointing fingers, just didnt want to waste time sugar-caoting it.
Dont complain if friendlies help each other. If you dont 'sanitise' your own mates six, YOU are the dweeb.
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Originally posted by Reynolds
I have also heard people complain if say, a rook is chasing a knight and another knight comes in and kills the rook. Not pointing fingers, just didnt want to waste time sugar-caoting it.
Dont complain if friendlies help each other. If you dont 'sanitise' your own mates six, YOU are the dweeb.
I don't think that's dweeby. It's not a true cherrypick if the guy is chasing someone, they would have to be fighting! At any rate it is part of the game. :aok
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skyrock hit it on the head again... and... the cherry pickers got ultra defensive. every once in a while I will grab a tempest and look for the cherry picker running away. Believe me... they die easier than the dumbest "cherry" in the furball. even the dumbest cherry can fight... 90% of fast plane B & Z cherry pickers are just meat when you are co e with a faster plane.
Defend the practice all you want. there was a time when it was the only way in AH... the first version I played had all the planes pretty much turning and losiong e at the same rate... If you turned... you were meat for anyone else. any plane could turn with any plane well enough to get a shot... maybe longer. Everyone went high and everyone avoided anyone... if a plane got low... two or three others would dive on him from different directions and run... everyone was B& Z there were no furballs at all.
There were actualy people who complained when the flight models were fixed and the fast planes could't turn turn with the slow ones. But gameplay improved dramaticaly. New planes became availabvle that were slower but still useful.
A little history... perhaps perteninent to today... bad behavior and bad gameplay allways lead to change in HTC sims.
I say that it is fine to play anyway you like and to take any shot you got... if you do only the easiest style of play tho all the time (B & Z in the fastest planes) you will never be able to defend yourself when you need to.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Lol, Lazs! I know you know about this topic as it's hard to bnz cherrypick in an FM2! I had 3 auger the other day as they all bnz'd at the same time. I nosed down in me 1-hog and none of them could pull out! You gotta luvit,
the dora snapstalled into water, nik compressed, and the A-8 couldnt pull up! :D
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Originally posted by SkyRock
Lamer talk! this post is about the definition of the term cherry picking. you have also(if you read the posts) heard descriptioins of cherrypicking. I gave an opinion and I would go as far to say that you wouldn't last 15 seconds in a duel with a good fighter! There is a big difference in cherry picking and fighting. :aok
Well, my post was all about this annoying whine about cherrypickers. You dont want to be cherrypicked, right? Then sharpen your SA and furball where there are not higher cons.
Following your reasoning my opinion should be that you would not last more than 15 seconds in a multibogey situation requiring an high SA. However this would be silly, would it?
Differences about cherrypick and fight? C'mon. This is a game not a medioeval tournament (sp?).
If you die becouse a cherrypicker gets you, you deserve it. If you dont want, go to the DA.
During the last months/years I saw ppl whining becouse they got nailed by their target's (unseen) wingman while blindly following their prey .... :rolleyes:
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yep... I will often be dodging three of six of these skilled and historical cartoon warriors and so busy reversing one while dodging the 4 cannons of the other and keeping track of where in the loop over the other two are that I can't read the messages. when they finaly kill me I will see that I have 3 kills even tho I may have only hit one in the reverse.
It is funny to watch a lone B & Z guy.. he will dive in from behind hoping you don't see him. He will turn long enough to realize he is being suckered and then pull off.. you will get the snap shot and put some into him because he has no idea where you are and what a reverse is (some form of cheating) and he will go bannanas! flop around and do the fishflop... Often.. he will run all the way home when he finaly get's seperation... I imagine that he is near a heart attack..... He allmost had to fight!
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by gatt
Well, my post was all about this annoying whine about cherrypickers. You dont want to be cherrypicked, right? Then sharpen your SA and furball where there are not higher cons.
Following your reasoning my opinion should be that you would not last more than 15 seconds in a multibogey situation requiring an high SA. However this would be silly, would it?
Differences about cherrypick and fight? C'mon. This is a game not a medioeval tournament (sp?).
If you die becouse a cherrypicker gets you, you deserve it. If you dont want, go to the DA.
During the last months/years I saw ppl whining becouse they got nailed by their target's (unseen) wingman while blindly following their prey .... :rolleyes:
1) I haven't really read any whining about cherry pickers in this thread. I see most posts basically as definitions, descriptions, or opinions.
2) I could find films of me fighting 4+ cons at the same time and often coming out the only one flying!
3) Killing the guy chasing your wingman is not a cherry pick. The two have to be in a fight!
4) maybe we meet co-alt co-e for a good one vs one fight to test my theory on most cherry pickers! I think you would get kicked!:aok
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Originally posted by SkyRock
1) I haven't really read any whining about cherry pickers in this thread. I see most posts basically as definitions, descriptions, or opinions.
2) I could find films of me fighting 4+ cons at the same time and often coming out the only one flying!
3) Killing the guy chasing your wingman is not a cherry pick. The two have to be in a fight!
4) maybe we meet co-alt co-e for a good one vs one fight to test my theory on most cherry pickers! I think you would get kicked!:aok
No, I'm not a cherrypicker. Buff-hunting apart. I get involved in all kind of fights, winning and losing.
What I find funny are guys gloryfing themselves and throwing gloves around thinking they are very good gamers.
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I see two groups of people in the arenas.
Group A are the players who are trying to win the war for their country. They do whatever they can to help see that through. They will vultch a field, cherry pick, HO, whatever. They just want to defeat the enemy.
Group B want to have "civil fights" (that was the dumbest phrase I heard in this thread btw). This group throws around words like "fairness", "lame", and "dweeb". Group B players have their idea of the perfect arena and expend great effort trying to implement "rules of engagement" and shape the behavior of those who do not see the arena the way they do. Huge threads about "Is the HO honorable" abound with Group B players.
Group B players try to build this "other game" within the game Group A players are playing. This does not pose a problem for the Group A player because he just sees the Group B player as another target. The Group B player however sees "lameness", "vultchers", "alt monkeys", "HO potatos", "dweebs", etc. etc, etc. In frustration, he then comes here and unloads on all of us.
I say, if you want "civil fights" then take it to the Dogfight Arena. That's why it exists.
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This does not pose a problem for the Group A player because he just sees the Group B player as another target.
This is where you went wrong ...
Group A players DO NOT want to fight ... they don't see Group B as targets, but rather something to run from, and if they do engage Group B players, they get spanked like a red-headed stepchild ... and then they move to an area where there are no Group B players.
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any furballer who complains about hordes of toolshedders needs thier free kill detector checked.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
This does not pose a problem for the Group A player because he just sees the Group B player as another target.
This is where you went wrong ...
Group A players DO NOT want to fight ... they don't see Group B as targets, but rather something to run from, and if they do engage Group B players, they get spanked like a red-headed stepchild ... and then they move to an area where there are no Group B players.
Slap, not only did you hit the nail right on the head, but its funny as he11 to see it put that way! That's exactly what I see when the landgrab horde comes to town. If you catch one of them alone, they run like scared wussies, and if you do catch them, they do that reverse rudder roll and stik stir tactic. Thats when I cut throttle, and float behind them pinging them with bb's until I've seen them squirm enuff, then tower them out of mercy! If they do decide to "fight" it out, then be ready to dodge the headon because trustme, its coming. :aok
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Group A players DO NOT want to fight ... they don't see Group B as targets, but rather something to run from, and if they do engage Group B players, they get spanked like a red-headed stepchild ... and then they move to an area where there are no Group B players.
Wrong. If I mix in a dogfight and get kicked by a better pilot its my fault: to the pilot who got on my six.
If, while furballing, I'm jumped by an higher/faster fighter then again its my fault: to him. My SA was low and I deserve it. Was he unwilling to fight? Not at all, I was the one cought with pants down. Higher/faster cons can obviously engage and disengage at will. They dictate the fight against "group B" not viceversa.
Call them cherrypickers as long as you want, however you are the one taking off again (and probably crying on ch.200) and they are the ones still flying and fighting.
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Originally posted by gatt
Wrong. If I mix in a dogfight and get kicked by a better pilot its my fault: to the pilot who got on my six.
If, while furballing, I'm jumped by an higher/faster fighter then again its my fault: to him. My SA was low and I deserve it. Was he unwilling to fight? Not at all, I was the one cought with pants down. Higher/faster cons can obviously engage and disengage at will. They dictate the fight against "group B" not viceversa.
Call them cherrypickers as long as you want, however you are the one taking off again (and probably crying on ch.200) and they are the ones still flying and fighting.
Wrong! They are not fighting, they are cherrypicking! There is a big difference! Cherry picking involves no "fighting" skills and could be done by any two week newb! Perched above a furball picking planes off that are already fighting is a basic unwillingness to fight! They don't want to fight, they want to cherry pick! Why do you keep trying to put that tactic into the doctrine of dogfighting, it is something altogether different. When I want to keep my ride safe, and rack up some easy kills, I cherrypick! When I'm in the mood for "fighting" I dogfight! :aok
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your saying its not fun to boom into 22 bish chasing a countrymen and pick the last one off?
Over and over.......
Sounds like fun to me, and pretty funny too.
Usually you can pick off two or three before the whold clan scurries away like roaches in the light.
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Originally posted by SkyRock
...Cherry picking involves no "fighting" skills and could be done by any two week newb!... /B]
Now, you're just being silly. I'm willing to give in on some of what you have been saying but frankly that's just emotion talking there! [Maybe even a bit of whinning!]
"Cherry picking", or whatever the crap you want to call it, is risky business. You must keep your speed up which risks compression (especially in a 109) and if you get enticed to turn much to get the kill, your speed gets bled then you get jumped by the Spits and Niks. Then you have the "laser beam" gunnery of the Spit deflection shot to worry about too, not to mention the dreaded collision. You want to tell me a "two week newb" can deal with all that? Ok, I'm not a great pilot, average at best. You can certainly criticise me on that, but I'm no "two week newb" either and I find "cherry picking" (I like the term "energy fighting" better) very challenging and keeping my plane fast and high requires much concentration. Nothing like you imply.
I'll get the occassional radio message to the effect of "Come back and fight you dweeb!" I just have to laugh. Yeah, right, I'm going to drop down into a Luffberry with you Spits and Hurri-s and fight "your" fight! You'd love that wouldn't you?
And you say I don't want to fight? You're sure right there. If I can pick you off without a fight, I'll do it EVERY time! The objective is to run you off from our base or take your base or clear the path for our bombers, etc. If I can accomplish that without getting fired upon, that I call that SMART. You can continue to whine about "fairness" and "lameness" all you want. I can take it!
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Originally posted by gatt
Wrong. If I mix in a dogfight and get kicked by a better pilot its my fault: to the pilot who got on my six.
If, while furballing, I'm jumped by an higher/faster fighter then again its my fault: to him. My SA was low and I deserve it. Was he unwilling to fight? Not at all, I was the one cought with pants down. Higher/faster cons can obviously engage and disengage at will. They dictate the fight against "group B" not viceversa.
Call them cherrypickers as long as you want, however you are the one taking off again (and probably crying on ch.200) and they are the ones still flying and fighting.
Gatt ... you are straying here ... he grouped ALL people into Group A and Group B ... not just YOUR standpoint ... look at it from a "Group" standpoint.
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Then you have the "laser beam" gunnery of the Spit deflection shot to worry about too, not to mention the dreaded collision.
Huh !?!?! ... u mean to tell me it's the plane that decides when to shoot and not the pilot ? ... or do you really not know the devastating effects that a 20mm hispano can deliver ?
Cherry Picking and/or BnZ is a valid fighting style, but please don't get overzealous on the skills involved.
Most Cherry Pickers or BnZers that I have run into and caught ... died within seconds after they realize there was no place to run ... without speed and/or E ... they for the most part are cannon fodder.
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Ok I give up: I'm not good at both fighting styles and english is not my mother tongue. Too difficult ... :furious
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Originally posted by SlapShot Huh !?!?! ... u mean to tell me it's the plane that decides when to shoot and not the pilot ? ... or do you really not know the devastating effects that a 20mm hispano can deliver ?
Cherry Picking and/or BnZ is a valid fighting style, but please don't get overzealous on the skills involved.
My turn to go "huh?" I don't get your comment at all. Where do you hear me say ANYTHING that implies that I think the "plane decides" anything? Are you arguing that the Spit9 (for example) does not exhibit pin-point gunnery compared to a 109? You will lose that argument my friend.
And with respect to the "devastation effects of a 20mm", you make my point for me. How many times have I had a Hurri-2C whirl around and take me out in a HO pass. The point here is "cherry picking" is not the safe "dweeb" tactic that you guys are making it out to be.
I truly hope you folks never win this argument. I would hate to play this game and do nothing but turn fight. Hats off to you turn-fighters (I like to get in there and do that too some times) but the Arenas are "war games", not meeting places for dog fighting. There is a Dogfight Arena that is designed specifically for that not to mention the H2H games.
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Originally posted by gatt
Ok I give up: I'm not good at both fighting styles and english is not my mother tongue. Too difficult ... :furious
(http://ganjataz.com/01smileys/images/smileys/OdBall-thatworks2.gif)
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Originally posted by HomeBoy
. . . stuff . . .
If I may weigh in, from what I've read, you seem to have confused the "cherry picker" with the "Boom and Zoomer" or "Energy Fighter". Unless I am hugely mistaken (which I often am), Skyrock et. al. have nothing against the valid use of energy fighting.
The "cherry picker" is often an "energy fighter", but not all "energy fighters" are "cherry pickers."
The key is fighting. You and your target are aware of each other, each trying to sucker the other into giving up his advantage. The turn fighter tries to bleed your E and get you to turn. You try to keep the fight in the verticle. Fair enough. Use your BnZ for all its worth.
The guy who sits 4K above a 6 player furball waiting for his chance to swoop on the enemy with the least E is the cherry picker. Sure, he is using BnZ tactics, but not really fighting. What he is doing is more like vulching, except the target is not on a runway.
My take anyway.
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woot im a picker!
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I like to fight.
I like to win.
I like peanut butter cookies.
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Originally posted by E25280 If I may weigh in, from what I've read, you seem to have confused the "cherry picker" with the "Boom and Zoomer" or "Energy Fighter".
You speak with reason. Thank you. However, I'm not confused. I know exactly what these guys are complaining about. In fact, this argument has been going on since I first hit the scene in 1998.
There are two issues here. One is, there is a group of "score potatos" who have discovered how to use energy fighting to run up scores. I am fully aware of that. These jerks have no desire to get into either the "war game" or the "dogfighting game." They just want kills. Nothing more. The other issue is energy fighting beats turn fighting, all things being equal, if for no other reason than the energy fighter can break off the fight any time he wants and the turn fighter does not have that option.
Now, these "Group B" guys complain bitterly against "cherry pickers." Trouble is, they can't tell who is a "score potato-cherry picker" and who is a "cherry-picker" like me (hopefully) who is trying to win the war and will use whatever tactic I can to get that done. We are both using the same tactics. Since, because they are turn-fighters, they have no options against the energy fighter unless they are successful at getting him to start turning with them. They therefore feel they have no recourse but to come here and cry foul. Many will go so far as to appeal to Hitec and try to get "cherry-picking" dealt with in some way. I'm sorry but that really rubs me the wrong way.
My point is the turn-fighter has two courses of action. One is to go to the Dogfight Arena and have at it. The other is modify their flying habits so that they are not "cherries." Coming here and whinning is just not very becoming.
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HomeBoy, very good info in your above post. I can see your experience playing this game. TY. I think it is the 'score potatos" that limit this game and the many different possibilities and styles of fighting for the rest of us. At least when there is so many of them in a particular area of the map. This is just a shame.
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the cherry picker that most laugh at is the one who allways looks for the risk free kill and avoids a fight at any cost.... he will run every time even with the advantage and he is allways in the fastest plane with the best guns or... very close to it.
This type of guy is rarely possesed of even mediocre acm skills and would hat an arena that had only fast planes allowed... he absolutely depends on others choosing lesser planes and fighting each other. and....
having less of the one skill that he does have.... the ability to wait forever... the complete lack of the boredom gene no matter how boring the style may be.
This is all fine but... that is why they are laughed at. It is quite common in every furball I have ever been in for all of us talking on radio and laughing at the guy... I have never heard anyone say anthing that vaugely resembled admiration for the poor clutz.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by HomeBoy
Now, you're just being silly. I'm willing to give in on some of what you have been saying but frankly that's just emotion talking there! [Maybe even a bit of whinning!]
"Cherry picking", or whatever the crap you want to call it, is risky business. You must keep your speed up which risks compression (especially in a 109) and if you get enticed to turn much to get the kill, your speed gets bled then you get jumped by the Spits and Niks. Then you have the "laser beam" gunnery of the Spit deflection shot to worry about too, not to mention the dreaded collision. You want to tell me a "two week newb" can deal with all that? Ok, I'm not a great pilot, average at best. You can certainly criticise me on that, but I'm no "two week newb" either and I find "cherry picking" (I like the term "energy fighting" better) very challenging and keeping my plane fast and high requires much concentration. Nothing like you imply.
I'll get the occassional radio message to the effect of "Come back and fight you dweeb!" I just have to laugh. Yeah, right, I'm going to drop down into a Luffberry with you Spits and Hurri-s and fight "your" fight! You'd love that wouldn't you?
And you say I don't want to fight? You're sure right there. If I can pick you off without a fight, I'll do it EVERY time! The objective is to run you off from our base or take your base or clear the path for our bombers, etc. If I can accomplish that without getting fired upon, that I call that SMART. You can continue to whine about "fairness" and "lameness" all you want. I can take it!
How in the world you get whinning out of me calling a spade a spade I'll never know. As far as most are concerned, they will choose a ride that they believe doesn't turn well so they can use the excuse, "Im not turning with that spit" when in fact many of us dogfighting vets kill spits and la7's and nikis all the time in our 109's, f4u's and, p-47's. Its not the turning radius that determines the outcome of a dogfight, its the angles. You have to know how to fight in the ride your in. :aok
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Originally posted by HomeBoy
Now, these "Group B" guys complain bitterly against "cherry pickers." Trouble is, they can't tell who is a "score potato-cherry picker" and who is a "cherry-picker" like me (hopefully) who is trying to win the war and will use whatever tactic I can to get that done. We are both using the same tactics. Since, because they are turn-fighters, they have no options against the energy fighter unless they are successful at getting him to start turning with them. They therefore feel they have no recourse but to come here and cry foul. Many will go so far as to appeal to Hitec and try to get "cherry-picking" dealt with in some way. I'm sorry but that really rubs me the wrong way.
My point is the turn-fighter has two courses of action. One is to go to the Dogfight Arena and have at it. The other is modify their flying habits so that they are not "cherries." Coming here and whinning is just not very becoming.
Being moronicly inept at understanding a post is also something that we have to deal with here as well! Look homeboy, the thread is about defining what acherry picker is. So there are people that have been there that will post their opinion on the definition of a cherry picker. If you read what this thread is about you will see that the thread starter is not whining or complaining about cherry pickers. I could care less if my victims start at 3k or at 11k, they are usually still going to be my victim. Now if you learned how to actually fight, you wouldnt need all your alt and run bore tactics to take a base or win a war. You could take a few good folks and totally cap a base. Then call you r bomber guys in finish the town and drop troops. But you think we actually believe that you sit up there on your lame perch for your countries sake? What a crock, while youre up there picking what cherry to bnz and miss 11 times, I have been towering all your country mates below in quick fashion. While you're running from a con that has climbed up to within 3k of you, I am killing all ur goons. Take your pathetic excuses for being lame and go shove them down some newbies throat because I have been there and done that. I am also willing to bet you still fly with stall limiter on too, ......right? You wouldn't know how to fight if a fight bit you on your arse, which is why you don't fight,..........you cherrypick! lol:rofl Sorry for being so harsh with you son, I just thought it would sound better!
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You sure put me in my place didn't you?
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Hitech needs to code a "cherry cloaking device" to prevent your plane being picked when you turn it into a "big ripe cherry".
Alternatively you can just have better SA!
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I like to be the first to suggest HT puts a large cherry emblem on the top of chutes.
Other than that, cherry pickers, B&Zmers, low level weedwhackers, bombers, fighters, pros, noobs, furballers, they all have a place in this game. Your mission should you chose to accept it, is to obliterate anything red..... oh and have fun doing it :aok
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Originally posted by Solar10
Hitech needs to code a "cherry cloaking device" to prevent your plane being picked when you turn it into a "big ripe cherry".
Alternatively you can just have better SA!
Lets say the guy had great "SA" and pulled out of the fight to climb up to fight a cherrypicker. At what distance from the moon would the cherrypicker stop running from the Cherry? :rofl
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While I find cherry picking annoying and don't much care for it, it is a valid tactic. I mean, one of the points of the game is to get kills and not get killed, right?
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I have never heard anyone say anthing that vaugely resembled admiration for the poor clutz.
what if someone play this simulation not for being admired but only for amusement of flying the way he likes??
who cares for being admired??.... so don't be timid, raise your hands:aok
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You guys be careful using "clutz" in your descriptive words! :D It's my name! sheesh! :rofl
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Skyrock and others:
You know, when that "cherry-picker" clears your six for you after you've expended all your E on a co-alt fight within a larger furball, do you thank him, or do you whine that he's cherry-picking?
I hope you thank him. You might be thanking me.
Here's my thinking: if you aren't cherry-picking for at least one pass before entering a furball, then you're an idiot. Any dope can fly straight into a furball, co-alt, and start turning, but he probably won't last long, because *someone's* gonna have more E and shoot him down. That's the nature of the game. That's the nature of air-combat. That's why they call it *energy management.*
You're *supposed* to enter a furball from on high, so you have some options. Maybe you want to use that E to get co-alt and super fast. Good. That's the idea. Now try combining it with killing someone: now you're two for one: one kill and lots of E, co-alt in a furball. It's called "planning your attack," and that's a good thing.
Now *this* is cherry-picking: you shoot off a guy's wing and tail surfaces. He's tumbling to the ground out of control. Then someone swoops in with cannon, shoots up the cockpit, get the PK or explosion, and then gets the Kill credit, leaving you with an Assist. *That's* cherry-picking.
What's you're whining about is called "teamwork" on the part of players who know how to manage E and stay alive.
And as for dogfighting skill, check my sig...
-Llama
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Well, I guess I'm an idiot, so I won't comment, other than to remark that I'm in complete and total awe of llama for winning a con event. I guess he must be the bestest dogfighter ever! I for one, consider this matter settled!
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Ilama I don't care for that "style" of playing this game. I know some really, really good dogfighters that do nothing but cherrypick. I think they play the game in a lame manner. On the other hand that percentage of cherrypickers that are great sticks is probably less than 3% in my opinion. Most of the cherrypickers that I run down from the stratosphere completely lose their banana's when forced to actually fight using the planes stall envelop and angle capabilities. They just don't know what they are doing. So, you see, I understand about flying "smart" by keeping your altitude and basically culling the fight below of the enemy with the weakest capability of moving out of the way of screaming fire, it's just that I see it as the KISS way of playing the game. Keep It Simple Stupid! It actually works as is shown by 80% of the pilots ranked in the top 50 in fighters who couldn;t fight their way out of a disadvantaged fight. Now, am I trying to totally embarass someone by calling them lame, I hope we have stronger skin than that! I am just saying that if more of the "regular" Cherrypick artists actually learned how to fight, then you would see a drastic increase in those super charged adrenalin fights that many of us "dogfighters" play for! Why? Because once the stall manuvers, angles, throttle management, multi-enemy SA, reversal manuvers, dodging manuvers, and other true survivability characteristics of a good dogfighter are learned/mastered by the ones who now rely on cherrypicking as their tactic of choice, then many would get bored with cherrypicking. Like I said earlier, there are some who who are great sticks and basically do nothing but cherrypick in the MA's. But that number is really small!
to you sir! Oh and btw, yes I am bored or, no, I wouldn't be replying so much to a thread about cherrypicking, as I rarely ever get cherrypicked by someone I didn't know was coming! :aok
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Originally posted by SkyRock
Ilama I don't care for that "style" of playing this game. I know some really, really good dogfighters that do nothing but cherrypick. I think they play the game in a lame manner. On the other hand that percentage of cherrypickers that are great sticks is probably less than 3% in my opinion. Most of the cherrypickers that I run down from the stratosphere completely lose their banana's when forced to actually fight using the planes stall envelop and angle capabilities. They just don't know what they are doing. So, you see, I understand about flying "smart" by keeping your altitude and basically culling the fight below of the enemy with the weakest capability of moving out of the way of screaming fire, it's just that I see it as the KISS way of playing the game. Keep It Simple Stupid! It actually works as is shown by 80% of the pilots ranked in the top 50 in fighters who couldn;t fight their way out of a disadvantaged fight. Now, am I trying to totally embarass someone by calling them lame, I hope we have stronger skin than that! I am just saying that if more of the "regular" Cherrypick artists actually learned how to fight, then you would see a drastic increase in those super charged adrenalin fights that many of us "dogfighters" play for! Why? Because once the stall manuvers, angles, throttle management, multi-enemy SA, reversal manuvers, dodging manuvers, and other true survivability characteristics of a good dogfighter are learned/mastered by the ones who now rely on cherrypicking as their tactic of choice, then many would get bored with cherrypicking. Like I said earlier, there are some who who are great sticks and basically do nothing but cherrypick in the MA's. But that number is really small! to you sir! Oh and btw, yes I am bored or, no, I wouldn't be replying so much to a thread about cherrypicking, as I rarely ever get cherrypicked by someone I didn't know was coming! :aok
P A R A G R A P H S z O M G !
:O
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this game's really going soft if flying headsdown with poor SA is now considered impressive, and the guy who makes you pay for it is considered lame.
emerging from a furball with your hair on fire and a handful of kills is the ultimate rush in this game, but asking cherry pickers to lay off is weak. The challenge...the whole reason for the rush...is you survived something you are not supposed too. I am really quite amazed that some furballers are trying to sanitize the arena with this, "please don't pick me I'm actually quite good" argument. It used to be if you were good you wouldnt be the one getting picked, or you only got picked with gun bays empty and a bucketload of kills. I guess if the new way takes hold it will make even mediocre furballers feel like legends too though.
I would much rather practice the craft knowing nobody on the other side is taking it easy on me. Operating in a sector underneath some known pickers is a real challenge that is certainly worth the 15 bucks. We'll just be entering a new asterick era of AH, where all feats, while possibly great, will have taken place in an era where the high E cons were taking it easy, unlike the guys who practiced the craft exceptionally well 4-5 yrs ago.
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Guys, I deeply regret participating in this discussion. I am truly sorry that my comments would generate such hateful personal attacks from Skyrock. Perhaps others were offended too. I guess I'm more naive than I thought. I thought I was entering into a spirited debate were we could do a little "idea battle". I had no idea it would turn so ugly. I have no desire for this. You will hear from me no more.
Please accept my apology.
-mark
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Originally posted by HomeBoy
Now, you're just being silly.
I apologize for for being retalitory in the nature of my post, Mark! Mark
Why can't all of us Mark's just not get along! :D
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Originally posted by E25280
If I may weigh in, from what I've read, you seem to have confused the "cherry picker" with the "Boom and Zoomer" or "Energy Fighter". Unless I am hugely mistaken (which I often am), Skyrock et. al. have nothing against the valid use of energy fighting.
The "cherry picker" is often an "energy fighter", but not all "energy fighters" are "cherry pickers."
The key is fighting. You and your target are aware of each other, each trying to sucker the other into giving up his advantage. The turn fighter tries to bleed your E and get you to turn. You try to keep the fight in the verticle. Fair enough. Use your BnZ for all its worth.
The guy who sits 4K above a 6 player furball waiting for his chance to swoop on the enemy with the least E is the cherry picker. Sure, he is using BnZ tactics, but not really fighting. What he is doing is more like vulching, except the target is not on a runway.
My take anyway.
Oh well, thats what I meant. You evil SkyRock :mad:
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homeboy... you don't have to apoligize... that is how you feel about it. However.. you really don't have much of a leg to stand on if you claim that the real skill is to B&Z in the fast planes... by looking at your stats we see...
that you die about as often as you win... that it takes you a very long time to kill anything. And.. that you don't prevail aginst planes that are your equal or even lesser.
If you check some of the furballers stats you will see, in the expanded version, that they beat every plane in the game while flying inferior planes that are being careful.. they often have 2, 3 to one or higher kills against B & Z planes.
This would indicate that sky is correct and that furballers not only have better sa (albiet more strained at all times) but better acm skills.
stegor.. if you are playing only for your own satisfaction and don't care what anyone thinks... why post here at all? why play against people at all if you don't really fight them but think that having the fastest plane and diving and running is "fun"?
fortunately... for the most part... the cherrypickers cancel each other out to a great extent.. you have em on both sides and they are afraid to go down on the furball because their opposite number on the other side will then cherry pick them... soooo.. you have two fights going on in a lot of cases... the high alt foxhole guys in the super planes all hiding from each other and jokeying for position and the low furball with guys fighting an more hectic battle consisting of more intense acm and sa.
oh... an energy fighter is not what I am talking about... I will rarely see a true energy fighter... they tend to be much higher than me and never really get down to my alt and engage with other energy fighters... they are simply another skill set that I am not interested in but they do have skill.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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stegor.. if you are playing only for your own satisfaction and don't care what anyone thinks... why post here at all? why play against people at all if you don't really fight them but think that having the fastest plane and diving and running is "fun"?
lazs...i'll try to explain better, but given that english is my 2nd language some concepts are hard to spread out for me.....
I play for my own satisfaction.....its obvious, and I do care of what people thinks; this simulation is so good because you have the possibility to "make friends", and fly and compare with other people.
But there is a ratio between the two ways, and someone is losing this ratio
on this bbs.
I've never stated that having the fastest plane is fun, I don't always dive and run, but I can't accept that if you don't turn and burn and you don't furball you have to be called a lamer, or I don't know acm at all...
I like to fly 205, and 190, and with this planes I have to conduct my attacks in a way that is in harmony with the peculiarities of these planes.
If I play B&Z or E- fight in a 190 against La or spit XXX... then if someone tells me I am timid/lamer/cherrypicker....ar whatsother do you think I have to care of this or have I to think he is the real loser??
Maybe it would be nice to come here writing with more balance, not generalizing at all, and not be ready to let fall the everlasting challenge : I can beat you anytime in acm, that's too childish --> NOT directed to you at all Lazs:)
Lazs
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Originally Posted By FALCONWING:
you sound like a 4 yo girl!
Pot & Kettle
:noid
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
'cherry picking' is just an all too easy excuse for being shot down by your own foolishness. there are furballing cherries, tactical cherries and of course there are score potato cherries, but at the end of the day the idea is to shoot people down and you got shot down.
And thats the facts Jack! :)
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Originally posted by Mugzeee
And thats the facts Jack! :)
LMAO!
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stegor... you are doing very well in your second language... I hope to be as skilled in my second some day.
As I understand and as your stats show... you fly the 190 and 205 both are planes with fast roll rates and high speed and climb and.... big guns.
Now... to fly them within their limits would mean that for the most part...you would not engage slower more agile planes... although some are quite capable of dogfighting these planes... I found the 205 quite agil in the AvA arena for instance.
now.. lets look at the arenas... in the old MA, you had all sorts of planes to choose from.. you must admit that only choosing very fast planes with big guns every time and flying in a timid manner and... only killing lesser planes that could not be a threat... well... that is pretty lame.
If the whole arena were simply 190's and 205's that would be different of course...
the real whining was the late war aficianados who wanted to get the early war planes back into the late war arena... they won't fly em but... they want em for targets and they don't want people to call em on it.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Well Lazs,
I usually fly the 205 like Nibbio-Stegor does. In the old MA our preys were not necessarily early war or slow aircraft. Often the opposite. Flying relatively "fast and big guns" aircraft like the A-5 and the 205 doesnt mean only B&Zing or cherrypicking. As far as gun punch is concerned the 205 is nothing compared to the always present Spitfires, Typhoons, Nikis and so on. And as far as speed is concerned, nothing against Ponies, Typhoons, late Spitfires, Jugs and evrything we usually find between 10K and 15K, our usual patrol altitude that is.
I agree with those who dont like runners-cherrypickers but the right way to use the 205 is doing properly Hit&Climb attacks, not mixing with Spitfires, Ki84s, Nikis and UFO-looping P-38s and P-47s. If you (generally speaking) are cought with the pants down by a fast flying 205, which then disengage spiral climbing, its your fault. I dont give my prey two chances. Again: this is not a medioeval duel. The DA is there for that.
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gatt.. I understand but.. the plane choice dictates the style. I simply don't like that style and... I tend to stretch the limit of the plane type.
Take the AvA for instance... there you can furball in a 205 or La5 because... they match up planes. It is not the MA. In the old MA and new LW... you are facing lesser or better planes depending...
depending on what you choose in the hanger... that is it.. the extent of it.
Because there are so many years and types of planes.. you are forced more to fly timidly if you choose a late war cannon plane. unlike a set where all speed and agility is about equal..
Your style in the late war planes is dictated by your choice of them. To say that you have no choice is not really completely correct. You choose to fly a plane with those capabilities (I say you but mean in general).
I think that you would have to admit that the fights would be much different and... the "ranks" if everyone flew planes that were more equaly matched.
I think that you will admit that, while not all.... most who choose late war fast planes do so for the large advantage it gives them over a large percentage of the players and... having that initial mindset... tend to be more timid and gamey than they should be.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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There's two types of Cherry Pickers so to speak.
1) The ones fly around the edge of the furbal and get the stragglers, the guys trying to run or grab som alt and not paying attention, I'm hitting the deck and running guy..... Those are the fun ones and yes you can look back and say "Man I should have checked my 6"
2) The guy that climbs to 20k into a 5k fight, waits for two guys to start a nice fight away from everyone else in the bloody map... dives down when they are busy and picks the guy and then climbs back up to his perch to hide. Those are the dweebs and the BnZ guys with very little skill.
Give Karaya his Spit and let him at that guy down on even fighting terms... Karaya is gonna be picking BnZ remains from his teeth. :D
I am fine if I die from the guy in #1.... but if you have to resort to being the #2 guy... well, :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by lazs2
gatt.. I understand but.. the plane choice dictates the style. I simply don't like that style and... I tend to stretch the limit of the plane type.
Take the AvA for instance... there you can furball in a 205 or La5 because... they match up planes. It is not the MA. In the old MA and new LW... you are facing lesser or better planes depending...
depending on what you choose in the hanger... that is it.. the extent of it.
Because there are so many years and types of planes.. you are forced more to fly timidly if you choose a late war cannon plane. unlike a set where all speed and agility is about equal..
Your style in the late war planes is dictated by your choice of them. To say that you have no choice is not really completely correct. You choose to fly a plane with those capabilities (I say you but mean in general).
I think that you would have to admit that the fights would be much different and... the "ranks" if everyone flew planes that were more equaly matched.
I think that you will admit that, while not all.... most who choose late war fast planes do so for the large advantage it gives them over a large percentage of the players and... having that initial mindset... tend to be more timid and gamey than they should be.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
Hmmm, yes and not. IMO, no matter what a/c I am in, gaining and mantaining a speed/alt/SA advantage is a must. I can furball with a 109K-4 but I have to be at least 50mph faster than the fastest of the turn&burners around me.
A furball with similar aircraft and with E and SA equally distributed among the furballers is the less interesting situation I can imagine.
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A furball with similar aircraft and with E and SA equally distributed among the furballers is the less interesting situation I can imagine.
WOW ... thats when my pants start on fire and the adrenalin rush is at it's highest ... at this point it's all about you and the other guy(s) ... the plane is secondary.
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Some of you guys sound like your trashing the P51 and anyone that flies it. By several definitions Ive read in this thread I suppose I might be considered a cherry picker. I dont wait for guys to get busy so I can jump them and shoot them down. I dont have that much problem finding kills without resorting to that. I prefer to think of myself as something like a shark feeding on lower food chain items. I even ask before coming into a fight just to make sure I wont be taking someones trophy but rather helping out with a difficult situation. I like finding six-ten cons to attack and no I dont always have an alt advantage. I do refuse to let a spit or La7 kill me when I can but he better be ready for the reverse. When I hear of a good stick over a field I go there. When I hear of a cv attacking I go there. I like flying under the 3k ack umbrella near cvs and killing spits and a6ms.
Before you can be picked you have to be a cherry and sometimes the experience of shooting guys is like reaching into the sink and finding the dishrag that hasnt been cleaned for a week. Not a cherry. These same guys often PM after a death. Im not part of their world.
I dont think cherry picking exists really. Its just another form of excuse for stupidity.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
A furball with similar aircraft and with E and SA equally distributed among the furballers is the less interesting situation I can imagine.
WOW ... thats when my pants start on fire and the adrenalin rush is at it's highest ... at this point it's all about you and the other guy(s) ... the plane is secondary.
Arent some areas of the EW, the DA and fighter town enuff for that kind of fighting? That kind of fighting seems to me too much game-ish (IMO, flight sims should someway attempt to recreate history) and makes the SA a much less important and interesting skill to sharpen. A good mix of the two styles of playing seems to me the best way. HTC should be (and I do hope it actually is) aware that there are both types of gamers around, not only the much more vocal furball crowd.
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*ahem* *tap tap tap*
Hello I'm SD67 and I'm a cherry.
Yes, I may spend a little too much time in early war planes like the Hurri1 in MWA, my SA leave much to be desired and I fight a constant battle against the urge to HO.
My ACM leaves a little to be desired and my accuracy sucks, I've lost count of how many times I've emptied a full loadout of .303's while turning and diving and climbing only to end up getting picked off while trying to force the dude I'm chasing to auger out of pilot error.
Having said that I'll waste no time in singling out and going after the straggler falling in behind his squaddies/ mission/ horde I hope that you all can find it in your hearts to forgive me. I also sleep well secure in the knowlege that 90% of enemy pilots would do me the same courtesy.
I'm so glad I found this little therapy session, I feel so much better now.
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gatt... I don't think it is interesting unless my plane has a disadvantage. Seems everyone allways starts out above me. That's why I like furballs... the bee and zeee guys have to stay on me to kill me and they are too timid for that.
A peee 51 can be flown with acm... we have all seen it. the late war arena started out as well.... late war. I would like to fight in a late war plane but only if the other guys were all flying em.
I would grab a temest from time to time and simply chase down the more timid runway divers... it really wasn't much fun.. all they did was run till I caught em and then die much more easily than the newest furballer..
I have fought 51's who could use some acm and push the plane to it's limits of handling. If you are saying that late war planes are not capable of acm so bee and zee and energy fights are all you can do then you are wrong.
lazs
Public relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by gatt
Arent some areas of the EW, the DA and fighter town enuff for that kind of fighting? That kind of fighting seems to me too much game-ish (IMO, flight sims should someway attempt to recreate history) and makes the SA a much less important and interesting skill to sharpen. A good mix of the two styles of playing seems to me the best way. HTC should be (and I do hope it actually is) aware that there are both types of gamers around, not only the much more vocal furball crowd.
The key word in your post is IMO ... that is your opinion and you are welcome to it.
I never said that what I like to do is the ONLY thing to do ... I just stated what sets my pants on fire ... if you think that is game-ish ... oh well ... sorry about that.
The thing is ... I have done it all ... strat-capture ... E-Fighting ... BnZ fighting ... and now I enjoy the "frenzy" fighting. I love it when it's all down to me and my ability to work the angles and the situation to get the advantage.
The "vocal furball crowd" has somewhat turned the noise level down since the change ... EW and MW for the most part gives the furballer what they need.
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Originally posted by lazs2
gatt... If you are saying that late war planes are not capable of acm so bee and zee and energy fights are all you can do then you are wrong.
lazs
Public relations Officer for the BK's
Lazs,
IMO if an early 1943 fighter like the 205 mix with a 1940-41's one, inevitably the former has to exploit his advantages to gain and mantain the advantage. Be faster, stay higher ... you name it. Even a 109F should exploit and mantain his slight speed and climb advantages against a Spitfire MkV.
Obviously, you can try every situation you like, i.e. you can close dogfight in a Pony against a Spit V. Thats what simulations are for, as well. However, it seems to me more a "what if" or an extreme training than an historical recreation of air combat.
Slapshot,
ok.
P.S.: I hope I wrote something understandable in english.
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sorry gatt... I never knew this was a recreation of history... I have read a lot of history and have never heard of the kind of flying you are talking about...
No la7 against la7 or spit 16... no wildcat against pee 51 or spit...
No lone "energy fighters" bee and zeeing..... I read about finger fours and 20 k fights and such aginst planes that were from different countries and... maybe a couple hundred kills recorded in maybe 6 years by only a tiny fraction of the best pilots and the rest maybe a kill or two in the same time..
I don't want to simulate that. I want the guns and the flight models as accurate as possible and I want to see what these babies will do when pushed to their limit... e fighting and bee and zee... may be "smart" fighting but it is a waste of a good fm... it is never seeing what the thing will do. It is not using all the fm that has been so painstakingly given us.
and for many.... it is simply a very transparent excuse for timidity in what amounts to..... a cartoon plane and a cartoon "life"
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by HomeBoy
This does not pose a problem for the Group A player because he just sees the Group B player as another target.
Exactly. If its red, use that stick of joy to rub out a few digital bullets, if successful you'll be rewarded with an explosion of joy.
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
Exactly. If its red, use that stick of joy to rub out a few digital bullets, if successful you'll be rewarded with an explosion of joy.
That may be a violation of rule #7:O
:lol
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:rofl
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Originally posted by Sikboy
The best Cherries are the other Cherry pickers. If the other guy thinks he's got more E than everyone else, he tends to be an easy and fun kill.
-Sik
Very true Sikboy. I have countered the pickers by comming in very high and followed them down for an easy kill. Some dont seem to use SA at all. Three times in one sorte, I got to 200 and just blasted away. I wonder if they were suprised.:D