Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Reynolds on October 05, 2006, 03:45:44 AM
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Alright. This is me venting and being a whiney baby. If you are too upset by that, leave now. This evening I was flying a 262 for the rooks. I flew for quite some time, and didnt see any enemies, so I returned to base. On the way home, I stopped by a friendly airfield to investigate a flash. There were two friendliess airborne fighting of a P-47N. I dove on the 47N once, but he turned away. I dove again, but missed. I was currently at 200 indicated, seeing as he was the only enemy anywhere nearby, and I was planning on landing after that anyway, and the base was right under me. I dove on final time, but decided to pull up and not engage. I was approx. 1.5-2.0K AGL, and 1.5 above and behind the enemy, at approx. 220-250 indicated. As soon as I applied backpreassure to the stick, I was in the tower. The P-47 pilot received credit for the kill. I went back to that base and asked the two friendlies who were approx. 800 meters from me when I died if they had seen anything. THey said no, nothing at all. I then went "WTF" over the 200. The P-47 pilot and I then had a conversation. He didnt know how I died either, and we summarized he got a proxy kill because he received no points for it. He had no idea what happened either.
Lets review, so as not to have people ignoring things I have already said:
When I died, the following is what I remember:
Altitude (AGL): 1.5-2.0 Kilometers
Speed(Ind): 220-250 Km/h
Nearest enemy distance: 1.5 Kilometers
Enemy orientation in relation to my aircraft: Below, in front
My Weapons status: Safed. Not firing
I pulled up and the second I did, to modify a very annoying comercial: "Bam, and the perks are gone"
So, im rather tweaked. about 190 perks down the drain, im left with only 60, and I have no idea what happened, nor does anyone else. I am not complaining at the pilot, he was very polite, and didnt even fire at me. I am not complaining at HTC, its not their problem. Im just complaining in general, and trying to desive a scheme to get those points back.
Allow me to apologise in advance for any vulching I will be responsible for over the next few weeks, as I am very desperate.
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Do you have film?
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Originally posted by Geary420
Do you have film?
I wish. That was the first thing I said over the 200, "If only I was recording..."
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everyone wants film..., heck No idea usualy when i die in a 262 it has nothing to do with glitches and everything to do with trees,and bushes, and bishes...
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Sounds like to me when u pulled up u pulled to many G's and blew up. Prossibly your stick could be spiking to that would cause that.
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Nope. I know for a fact you pull too many Gs you just rip your wings off. Maybe all the way to the wing root, but you won't just pop into the tower.
Reynolds, why are you listing things in km/h and km alt? I'm pretty sure you mean 1.5k to 2k FEET (2,000m alt is about 6,000 feet), and I'm sure you mean 220-250mph, because I think the 262 barely flies at 220km/h (that's about landing speed, it seems!)
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As a side note, a few squaddies and I were in LWA and we were running a few ops to distract the enemy from the main frontline. We hit a port, then a field, only our goon got pegged. So we're trying to provide top cover in (get this) two or three Me262s while a couple of us sneak goons in. Only we're close to HQ, surprise surprise, and they have a Me163 trying to dogfight us. That, and some spits and the like. Actually, I recall a hurr1 trying to ho my 262 at least twice before he gave up.
Anyways, I blow a couple of PERFECT shots (my aim sucks) and I'm dogfighting (yes, dogfighting) with the 163 when BAM -- there go my wingtips.
Show me ONE freaking example of a 262 that lost both its wingtips because it pulled 3 damn Gs! JUST ONE! If you can show me a wartime picture of a 262 that lost its wingtips because it pulled "too hard" (bah! 3Gs is not hard at all dammit!), then I vow I will never complain about the damn 262 wingtips in AH ever again. JUST SHOW ME ONE!
Anyways, back to the story
So I'm doing 300 or less mph at about 5k or so (fairly low) and rip my wingtips off and end up dogfighting a 163 with rudder only inputs. The sad part is that I out manuvered him (even forcing and overshot). After a few minutes I think he gave up or ran out of gas. I made the long flight home with my fingers on the J and L keys, trying to stabilize the autolevel.
How is this relevant? Well, it's a 262 mission with bad results :P
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I've had instances where friendly auto AAA has taken me back to the tower. Were you running around your base or a friendly train by any chance?
Wolf
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yup, sounds like an unlucky puffy ack hit to me reynolds, too bad :(
just fly some high eny planes for a little while, you'll get 190 perks back in 5-6 sorties ;)
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The days of 80-perk sortie landings are gone, since the arena reformat.
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Yes, I was RIGHT over e friendly base, but too low for puffy ack, and auto ack I beleive had just been porked by the 47, because I didnt see any firing, and at 250 Mph, im not going to pull too many Gs from a gentle climb.
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just fly a f4u1 or a 109f for a couple days and your all set.
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I'm still waiting for just ONE example of a real Me262 that lost both wingtips while pulling a 3G turn at 50% fuel at 5k alt.
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I think there's a "glitch" somewhere and it's not limited to 262's as I had something similar happen in a HIIC. I was dead 6 on a Nikki almost directly over a friendly field. We were both level (i.e., non-maneuvering) and I was maybe D600 behind just waiting for him to dive when all of a sudden I just blew up. He did nothing, I did nothing. Radar was up, there were no other nme in the sector. I immediately scaned around visually from tower and there was the Nik overhead plus a few friendlies and that was it. No sneaking 262's, LAs, etc. Just the Nik. The field was friendly with no nme trains, factories, or CVs with flak. Even the Nikki pilot came up over 200 and asked WTF? It was hilarious and, of course, I didn't have film running. Who runs film flying straight and level? Anyway, sometime's shxt happens.
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Originally posted by Krusty
I'm still waiting for just ONE example of a real Me262 that lost both wingtips while pulling a 3G turn at 50% fuel at 5k alt.
Find an example of a 262 that lost half of it's wings in any situation and made it back to base.
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Yeah mace, the guy who got my kill was clueless as well. So, should I adress HTC about this? Or just hold my tounge and get my perks back the old fassioned way?
(Abd about 'just fly this for a day' it took me since I first started AH to get 250 perks to being with. I am probably the worst fighter pilot in the game, and I fly the hard planes to boot. Even 10 perks are at least a few days work for me. This is one of only three times I have ever lost ANY fighter perks, and the other two were take-off crashes in a 10-point Ta-152)
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i ripped wings off a hurricane at about 300 IAS the other day
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Yeah mace, the guy who got my kill was clueless as well. So, should I adress HTC about this? Or just hold my tounge and get my perks back the old fassioned way?
(Abd about 'just fly this for a day' it took me since I first started AH to get 250 perks to being with. I am probably the worst fighter pilot in the game, and I fly the hard planes to boot. Even 10 perks are at least a few days work for me. This is one of only three times I have ever lost ANY fighter perks, and the other two were take-off crashes in a 10-point Ta-152)
Reynolds, you could post this in the bug report forum but since you don't have any film I don't know it would do any good. That's why I didn't bother since I not only didn't have film, it's only happened a couple of times to me it's not a big deal. Losing the points when you have a limited number sure sucks but it's not like they're going to give them back.
If you really want to rack up some perk points fast the key is picking your plane and your fight. Use something like a HIIC in the LW or MW arena and don't dive straight into a furball. Stay high and watch for high nme that are setting up to dive into the furball to pick and then pick them as they return to their high perch for another pick. They'll be slow and pretty predictable. Also while staying high, look for spitters...those guys that are in the furball but spit out either to regain altitude or to run for home. Once they get some separation you can lots of time get a 1v1 going with less danger of getting picked yourself. Just stay out of a high density furball as skill has little to do with dying.
Mace
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and ripped wings off a f6f about 15 mins ago going approx 380
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262s are free in the training arena. In this arena you can use any airplane you want and fly it for as long as you like. It's really funny how you can see how an airplane flys and, dare i say...learn in said arena.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Find an example of a 262 that lost half of it's wings in any situation and made it back to base.
Well I don't care if it made it back. In real life planes made it back with massive chunks of stabilizers, wings, noses, and even entire tail planes missing.
I'd like one account of pilot A saying pilot B ripped his wingtips off in a low-G turn. I'd like one account of an allied pilot saying "I was gonna shoot, but his wings just ripped off and he went down all on his own" -- I have never heard of either instance ever happening with a 262 in real life.
That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but if it DID happen it would have been well-known.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Well I don't care if it made it back. In real life planes made it back with massive chunks of stabilizers, wings, noses, and even entire tail planes missing.
I'd like one account of pilot A saying pilot B ripped his wingtips off in a low-G turn. I'd like one account of an allied pilot saying "I was gonna shoot, but his wings just ripped off and he went down all on his own" -- I have never heard of either instance ever happening with a 262 in real life.
That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but if it DID happen it would have been well-known.
Krusty, you don't mention if you filmed this and I'm not saying you're wrong but if you didn't film it how do you know you pulled only 3G? A 262 accelerates like a raped ape downhill so it's quite possible you pulled lots more G than you thought. I don't have 262 charts but I'm pretty sure that even 300mph is above Corner Velocity. Also, maximum G isn't available until you're light and I don't know that the full six G is available at 50% fuel weight. I know that I've pulled the wings off a 262 many times, and each time I could point to myself as being too fast and heavy when I yanked on the stick. I typically don't engage is hard-core dogfighting with a 262 until I get to about 25%. Even though that doesn't sound like much fuel it's enough in the 262 to have a couple of good fights and still divert more than a sector to home field.
Mace
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I don't have a film but I do know this:
- it was a flat turn, no up/down
- I had done other turns before this, was not going over 300mph
- I didn't even start to black out (guesstimate of 3G)
- it was 5K, dense air, if anything I'd expect this at 25K.
In all liklihood it shouldn't have happened. In all accounts I've read it didn't happen. I'm disgruntled that it happens almost every sortie in a 262.
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I know that crap is frustrating, but in the end it's just a game. You should be thankfull and happy that you bumped into what must be the worst Komet pilot in the game were lucky enough to RTB :)
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Yes, I was somewhat happy to land it, but that was more the happiness that comes with overcoming an obstacle, not the kind that comes with achieving a goal or anything :)
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Originally posted by Krusty
Well I don't care if it made it back. In real life planes made it back with massive chunks of stabilizers, wings, noses, and even entire tail planes missing.
I'd like one account of pilot A saying pilot B ripped his wingtips off in a low-G turn. I'd like one account of an allied pilot saying "I was gonna shoot, but his wings just ripped off and he went down all on his own" -- I have never heard of either instance ever happening with a 262 in real life.
That doesn't mean it didn't happen, but if it DID happen it would have been well-known.
Krusty,
Look at it this way.
A: In r/l WW2 pilots were not able to yank back on a toy joystick and enjoy unlimited amounts of G's. In most cases, they would black out long before they came close to pushing the airframe structural limitations. Top that off with the training to know the structural limitations of the aircraft they were flying, and it is extremely likely a pilot would not put his aircraft in a situation causing structural failure. I am not saying structural failure would be common, more likely it would be the anomally, as any manufacturer would have beefed up structure to compensate for a massive structural failure problem.
B: I have read pilot accounts (unfortunately can not remember which books) of enemy aircraft stalling and spinning with the result being the folding of a wing, or loss of the empennage. They are out there, you just need to look for them. Lastly, using the term "wing tips" is extremely misleading. Many WW2 aircraft can fly without wing tips, and most wing tips are quite small basic end caps. It would be better to say half a wing like it is visually represented in game.
C: Well, I am not going to argue that it may not have been well known. Although, I can think of several examples off the top of my head of structural failure problems with US Aircraft that are not widely known, and in some cases were deliberately covered up such as:
Early F6F-3's had many Horizontal stabilizer failures. The result was loss of aircraft and most times pilot. The Grumman fix was to issue a service bulletin for aircraft in field to add "basically" another leading edge to the horizontal stabilizer of .063 aluminum to make up for the lack of strength. The subsequent aircraft in the assembly line were produced with the mod in place.
Early Corsairs had several wing failures on Brewster built aircraft owing to improperly heat treated spar components. This was realised soon after production and rectified.
Early P-38's were very capable of ripping off their own tails due to buffeting that came off the wing root in the center gondola area. Pilot's were advised at first to back off on speed, while Johnson's team designed the "fillet" that eliminated this problem. Subsequent structure in the area was beefed up to deal with weak structure issues exposed by the buffeting.
Anyways, it is possible to rip off wings in combat, but unlikely due to a lot of factors I mentioned. Add to it, that this is a game, and we are unable to experience the true feel of 5 G's draining the blood out of your head and the subsequent gray out our bodies go through.
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i've been taken out on the runway by puff-ack.....twice....in a row
...not fun
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ive ripped wing tips before also.... but whenever i try and replicate the damage offline or in TA, it never happens.. which is odd.
on another note, a 262 without wing tips flys well fast!!!!
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/204_1128316589_jugmaintshackmod1copy.jpg)
This is typical of the way I fly.
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I can't comment on the instant transport to tower loss, but I've been losing planes to disco's lately. I'll be running along just fine, no "lost udp" or anything, just a "host disconnected" message and boom I'm on the desktop.
Lost a 262 to that myself the other night (right after catching Eegle in his P47N way up hi ;) ) Sucks to lose perkies that way, but C'est Le Guerre.
EagleDNY
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I wouldnt mind if it was a typhie, points like that are trivial, and I wouldnt mind much either if I could afford another 262, but thats the thing. I will get a sudden uncontrolable urge to fly a 262. I dont care If I kill anything, I just wanna fly it and show off in the MA. Has to be MA, 'cause everyone can have one in the TA. And ive been in a 262 mood lately :(
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Originally posted by Reynolds
I wouldnt mind if it was a typhie, points like that are trivial, and I wouldnt mind much either if I could afford another 262, but thats the thing. I will get a sudden uncontrolable urge to fly a 262. I dont care If I kill anything, I just wanna fly it and show off in the MA. Has to be MA, 'cause everyone can have one in the TA. And ive been in a 262 mood lately :(
will be joining you on perk farming..... ive still not killed anything in the past 2 days, and i lost ANOTHER 262 yesterday...... :furious :rofl
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So sad to hear, how many points do you have left? Im up from 60 to 63! lol Ive got a new strategy: Hurri IIC, P-38G, and 109G2 all in LWA, plus strat-bombing to help with resets, and fly the HIGHEST ENY fighter there is for every map reset. Im REALLY craving some flights in a 262.
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390something, but the luck I'm having its not worth it.
i was flying a 109K (first time) and was trying to clear a bombers 6 from a enemy..... i hit my bombers and blew my self up
then i fired off something like 200 rounds just now at a p51, none hit, however a friendly typh then flew infront of me, and 1 kit blew my tail off.
6kills in 2 days, -350perks, and lots of whining! i need some drink!
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Well, um, is the Kurfurst a perk plane now? I know the drink feeling. Soon as I hit that tower, I just sat there and thought "Im gonna need some vodka"
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Hi Krusty,
>I didn't even start to black out (guesstimate of 3G)
I just looked up the construction description for the Me 262, re-produced in Radinger/Schick's "Me 262", and it points out a maximum G load of G=7 for a maximum weight of 5700 kg. With the technical standards of the day, that would probably include a 50% safety margin before ultimate failure (which accordingly would have to be expected to occurr at G=10.5).
Note that this is actually equivalent to a load of 59350 kg - if you have already burnt some fuel, this pushes the maximum allowable Gs a bit higher (and you know how quickly the Me 262 burns fuel :-)
I'm not quite certain about the wing spar, but as the Me 262 incorporated a much higher proportion of steel parts than the earlier piston-engined fighters, it might well be that the Me 262's main spar was from steel. This should give a wider margin of permanent deformation before it actually breaks than you'd get from aluminium.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Krusty,
>I didn't even start to black out (guesstimate of 3G)
I just looked up the construction description for the Me 262, re-produced in Radinger/Schick's "Me 262", and it points out a maximum G load of G=7 for a maximum weight of 5700 kg. With the technical standards of the day, that would probably include a 50% safety margin before ultimate failure (which accordingly would have to be expected to occurr at G=10.5).
Note that this is actually equivalent to a load of 59350 kg - if you have already burnt some fuel, this pushes the maximum allowable Gs a bit higher (and you know how quickly the Me 262 burns fuel :-)
I'm not quite certain about the wing spar, but as the Me 262 incorporated a much higher proportion of steel parts than the earlier piston-engined fighters, it might well be that the Me 262's main spar was from steel. This should give a wider margin of permanent deformation before it actually breaks than you'd get from aluminium.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
Which pretty much says the 262 can take some real Gs?
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Hi Reynolds,
>Which pretty much says the 262 can take some real Gs?
Roger that.
(There were several standards for G requirements in WW2, and some may have been higher than 7 G, but if I remember correctly, the P-38 for example was built for a similar load factor.)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Now, any guesses as to what happened for me? Even when crashing into a tree, I see a pause in the screen before I tower. I have actually NEVER imidiatly towered, even when ending sortie, I always see a picture of a tree first (I know, wtf is a tree doing there?!?) but this time I was just in a tower, no tree screen.
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Now, any guesses as to what happened for me? Even when crashing into a tree, I see a pause in the screen before I tower. I have actually NEVER imidiatly towered, even when ending sortie, I always see a picture of a tree first (I know, wtf is a tree doing there?!?) but this time I was just in a tower, no tree screen.
since the split, ive been seeing and hearing some freaky stuff.
for instance i was dogfighting a 109F, while i was flying a la5. I shoot up the 109, flaps fall off etc, and i see him auger..... i start to pull up, only to see him "take off" from the mess on the floor and nearly kill me...he flew RIGHT into the ground yet was now dead 6, less than 800yards away.....
or, chasing 2 red cons, and they just vanish? No proxy, no chute, no crash, nothing....I think skuzzy is messing around in a UFO model or something:p
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Ho-Hun, if you have some info on the subject, would it be possible to post it in a new thread, for the purpose of flight model discussion?
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Hi Krusty,
>Ho-Hun, if you have some info on the subject, would it be possible to post it in a new thread, for the purpose of flight model discussion?
Certainly, just that I'm not quite fure what "the subject" exactly is :-)
I don't really have much information on design G limits overall. For German aircraft, they are often obscured by a "load class" like "H5", meaning high-speed aircraft fully capable of aerobatics and the like. (I don't have the definition list, unfortunately.)
Maybe you could start a general call for information and see what everyone can contribute :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Hi again,
>Certainly, just that I'm not quite fure what "the subject" exactly is :-)
I meant to write "the fubject", of course! ;-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by Overlag
since the split, ive been seeing and hearing some freaky stuff.
for instance i was dogfighting a 109F, while i was flying a la5. I shoot up the 109, flaps fall off etc, and i see him auger..... i start to pull up, only to see him "take off" from the mess on the floor and nearly kill me...he flew RIGHT into the ground yet was now dead 6, less than 800yards away.....
or, chasing 2 red cons, and they just vanish? No proxy, no chute, no crash, nothing....I think skuzzy is messing around in a UFO model or something:p
Strange things have been noticed by myself too. Have they changed bomb arming time? I have only had 4 or 5 bombs too low since I started the game, but now with the new formats, I have yet to release a SINGLE bomb high enough. I used to drop skimming the trees at high speed so as to get a greater foreward motion, and now, even higher up, at the same speed, with the same plane and bomb load, it doesnt detonate. Im really wondering whether or not to bring it up in the bug reports...
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ive had bombs not "land" from 19k.... i dunno where they went. :huh
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I've experienced that too. So far experienced it only in axis planes with 250kg and 500kg bombs.
A nice drop from plenty of alt and the bomb just vanishes. I'm glad it does not happen too frequently...
-C+
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Originally posted by Charge
I've experienced that too. So far experienced it only in axis planes with 250kg and 500kg bombs.
A nice drop from plenty of alt and the bomb just vanishes. I'm glad it does not happen too frequently...
-C+
mine was 14x1000lbs from a lancaster. Never landed.
and no, they didnt land long, or short, they just didnt land. :(
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Oh, mine is always the 500lb in the P-40E that just... stopped working... :noid