Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sundowner on October 05, 2006, 06:02:08 PM
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Some pretty "in your face" sabre-rattling comming from the State Department these days.....
Regards,
Sun
"We are not going to live with a nuclear North Korea," Assistant Secretary of State Chris Hill told the U.S.-Korea Institute at Johns Hopkins University Wednesday. "We are not going to accept it."
North Korea "can have a future, or it can have these weapons. It cannot have both," Hill said. The U.S. and its allies "are in a very tense time" in dealing with Pyongyang, Hill added.
"We will do all we can to dissuade the DPRK [North Korea] from this test," Hill said.
He declined to say exactly what the United States would do if North Korea undertakes such a test, but said, "we would have no choice but to act resolutely to make sure that the DPRK understood -- and to make sure that any other country understands -- that this (nuclear test) is a very bad mistake."
If North Korea does conduct a test, it "will realize that they had a bad day when they made that choice," he said.
After his appearance, Hill told reporters, "if they think that firing off a weapon will somehow make them a part of some sort of nuclear club, they should think again."
"If they think that by exploding a weapon, that somehow we will come to terms with it, we won't," he said.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/10/04/nkorea.nuclear.unresponse/index.html
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:noid
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At this rate, theres gonna be a war with North Korea sometime in the near future
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/612_1160089747_mushroomcloud.gif):O
"Every cloud has a silver lining---except a mushoom cloud."
Regards,
Sun
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War? Hardly.
Drop a few JDams on the NK presidential palace and let the problem un**** itself.
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I wouldn't object to a few air strikes, or political assasinations. But for the love of Christ, lets not try to 'liberate' the North Koreans.
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Anyone not wearing sunblock SPF 2.5 million could have a *really* bad day over there
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Lemme guess, a couple days of 'shock and awe' followed by an extended occupation during which we try to save these people from themselves by teaching them the virtues of Mcdonalds, Coca Cola, Walmart and retail Jesus?
Either blow them off the map or STFU. Nobody believes we have the resolve to blow our own noses anymore.
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I think South Korea can take the North provided China does not interfere. Once the soldiers from the north see the real difference and relative prosperity of the south, I think there may be mass defections. Of course if nukes are brought in it's game over anyhow.
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Hmmm... you maybe on to something.
5 million Happy Meals delivered piping hot to NK troops in the field.
Muah-hahahahahahah!
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I think China is our real enemy. Heres my marine biology analogy.
Right now the U.S. is a dolphin in an ocean of fish and few sharks. China is a killer whale calf. Won't be long till that calf is done suckling, and will either outcompete us for resources, or eat us directly.
If I were in control of the country (U.S.), my main agenda would to be to ramp up technology production by hundreds of percent. We can't outproduce a giant like China, but maybe we can beat them in terms of quality. Do like India did (they let anyone who wanted to go to college for software engineering go free). Except we would offer free degrees in any type of engineering/bioengineering.
Ironically, my brother spent over a year in China building a computer chip manufacturing plant. He said it was a really interesting and fascinating country, even if people only make $1 or $2 an hour.
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If only we could keep our presidents from selling them our technology.
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a war with North Korea and Iran
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
a war with North Korea and Iran
Would be a short war indeed if we were to commited to destroying them both.
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Originally posted by lukster
I think South Korea can take the North provided China does not interfere.
China always interfers if one of thier buffer states is threatened.
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Geez China might as well make N Korea part of their country. Problem solved
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Originally posted by 1K3
Geez China might as well make N Korea part of their country. Problem solved
What makes you think this is a problem for China?
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Originally posted by Meatwad
At this rate, theres gonna be a war with North Korea sometime in the near future
You mean ..... at this rate the war will resume, right? ;)
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Originally posted by lukster
Would be a short war indeed if we were to commited to destroying them both.
Nothing says "American" better than an all out committment to destroy other countries and their people. Especially if it involves the mentality of "Well they would do it to us!" ;)
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Originally posted by Thrawn
What makes you think this is a problem for China?
Most of the aid come from China. Make NK a part of Chinese province then you'll see another hyper rich Hong Kong, Shanghai and Macao in the making. Kim's Disneyland (Pyongyang) needs some serious restorations to make N Korea worth visiting for us westerners someday.:aok
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Originally posted by Arlo
Nothing says "American" better than an all out committment to destroy other countries and their people. Especially if it involves the mentality of "Well they would do it to us!" ;)
Yeah, that's what America has done all through it's histoty. We have " destroyed" so many countries.
We destroyed Japan, Germany and Italy. We rebuilt Europe. That's American.
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Again, launch strikes on the Three Gorges Dam complex. They started filling the resevoir a couple years back. The Yangtze River is the "Backbone of China", break it, they'll be on their knees.
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The US could whipe out China conventionally and China couldn't do a thing to hurt the US mainland. We could hit them day and night for months and inflict severe damage to them.
The Chinese know this and they are not stupid.
North Korea having a nuke ( if they even do have the capability) would be a threat to all of Asia, including China.
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Originally posted by ByeBye
Yeah, that's what America has done all through it's histoty. We have " destroyed" so many countries.
We destroyed Japan, Germany and Italy. We rebuilt Europe. That's American.
Maybe you didn't see the post I was responding to. Maybe you didn't see the sarcasm light in the corner of mine. Maybe you're attempting to add color to the exchange. I dunno. If it was clear, I would help ya out. ;)
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Originally posted by Arlo
Maybe you didn't see the post I was responding to. Maybe you didn't see the sarcasm light in the corner of mine. Maybe you're attempting to add color to the exchange. I dunno. If it was clear, I would help ya out. ;)
Sorry, didn't see your post before...plus been drinking a little. ;)
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Now that I definately can appreciate. :D
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Can't remember the actual numbers we came up with, but...
We were at work one day (in my former life as a paid employee of the U.S. government) figuring out some stats based on how many artillery pieces the N Koreans had within range of Seoul. We were counting unclassified numbers of 120mm or bigger caliber only. I think we came up with 4000 rounds per minute total, at the max sustained rate, capable of hitting the city. And that's conventional. That's not including slime--and they have quite a bit of that too. And yeah, I know, we're supposed to go nuke if someone goes chem, but I'm not sure the world would let us do it, nor the Japanese happy with the fallout cloud blowing over the homeland.
I decided there was only two things that would make me put my uniform back on--the N Koreans crossing the DMZ, and the Chinese crossing the Strait of Taiwan. You better be ready to put on too if either of those two happen, 'cause we'll be seeing WWI or WWII casualty figures--or worse.
Don't underestimate how "easy" it would be to deal with N Korea or China.
My two cents...
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Originally posted by Stoney74
Can't remember the actual numbers we came up with, but...
We were at work one day (in my former life as a paid employee of the U.S. government) figuring out some stats based on how many artillery pieces the N Koreans had within range of Seoul. We were counting unclassified numbers of 120mm or bigger caliber only. I think we came up with 4000 rounds per minute total, at the max sustained rate, capable of hitting the city. And that's conventional. That's not including slime--and they have quite a bit of that too. And yeah, I know, we're supposed to go nuke if someone goes chem, but I'm not sure the world would let us do it, nor the Japanese happy with the fallout cloud blowing over the homeland.
I decided there was only two things that would make me put my uniform back on--the N Koreans crossing the DMZ, and the Chinese crossing the Strait of Taiwan. You better be ready to put on too if either of those two happen, 'cause we'll be seeing WWI or WWII casualty figures--or worse.
Don't underestimate how "easy" it would be to deal with N Korea or China.
My two cents...
Your two cents has sense. Good to hear it. :)
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Where's Hans Brix when we need him?
I vote for the JDAM/Happy Meal option.:aok
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A very interesing juncture might be comming this weekend.
When NK does the test just what do you think we'll do?
1-Do nothing.
2-Extreme blockade of all imports to NK?
3-Attack.
4-Another option I've not thought of. :)
I vote #2.
An ancient curse goes like this:
"May you live in interesting times."
Regards,
Sun
Fears N. Korea may test at weekend
TOKYO, Japan -- Japan's top government spokesman says Tokyo is stepping up monitoring of North Korea amid speculation that the communist nation could carry out a nuclear test as early as this weekend.
"In consideration of various possibilities, we are preparing for whatever may happen," Chief Cabinet Secretary Yasuhisa Shiozaki said Friday, according to The Associated Press.
The speculation comes amid reports the United Nations Security Council members have reached a tentative agreement on a Japanese-drafted statement that warns North Korea of unspecified consequences if it conducts a nuclear test.
The text, obtained by the Reuters news service, is similar to the original, and was negotiated by junior diplomats of the 15 council members. It is being sent to governments for possible changes before further discussions on Friday.
The statement urges Pyongyang to cancel its planned nuclear test and return immediately to six-party talks aimed at persuading the reclusive Communist nation to abandon its nuclear arms program, according to Reuters.
Japanese Vice Foreign Minister Shotaro Yachi, currently in Washington, said Japan and the United States shared concerns that the North was not bluffing about a nuclear test, and should be prepared for a possible test this weekend, a Foreign Ministry official said on condition of anonymity, citing protocol.
The assessment was made during Yachi's talks with White House Deputy National Security Adviser Jack Crouch and U.S. Defense Undersecretary for Policy Eric Edelman, the official said, but declined to say if they had intelligence showing evidence of North Korean nuclear activity.
"Based on the development so far, it would be best to view that a test is possible this weekend," Yachi told Japanese broadcaster TV Asahi.
Media reports have speculated that a test could come as early as Sunday, the anniversary of Kim Jong Il's appointment as head of the Korean Workers' Party in 1997....
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/10/06/nkorea.nuclear/index.html
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my prediction is their "nukler test" will go just like their ICBM test, fershizzle
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Originally posted by ByeBye
The US could whipe out China conventionally
:lol
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Originally posted by Arlo
Maybe you didn't see the post I was responding to. Maybe you didn't see the sarcasm light in the corner of mine. Maybe you're attempting to add color to the exchange. I dunno. If it was clear, I would help ya out. ;)
One of the many problems with this world is that wars are not fought to destroy the enemy. Reminds me of the old Star Trek episode where the computers wage the war and the casualties voluntarily enter death chambers. This prolonged the war for centuries.
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Originally posted by Sundowner
A very interesing juncture might be comming this weekend.
When NK does the test just what do you think we'll do?
1-Do nothing.
2-Extreme blockade of all imports to NK?
3-Attack.
4-Another option I've not thought of. :)
I vote #2.
I'm interested in what China and Russia will do. If they sit back and do nothing this will give Japan a reason to change their constitution and start building a defense force. Japan should make an anouncement that if they conduct this test they will procede in doing so.
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Nilsen, Imagine what a couple of pissed off Japanese army divisions could do if let loose in China.
Oh wait.............
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They could prolly hurt someone bad, but they would have to get there first.
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Originally posted by Toad
Hmmm... you maybe on to something.
5 million Happy Meals delivered piping hot to NK troops in the field.
Muah-hahahahahahah!
Let the NKAirlift begin!
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I've never been to North Korea but I did live in South Korea for just over a year. While the people there may not enjoy the same standard of living found in many western countries they are industrious and increasingly modernized. My Dad was there during the Korean war and he told me that Seoul was nothing but huts and mud everywhere. Today, the city begins many miles from it's center growing as you drive inward to rival most modern western cities.
Not having been to the North I can't say with surety how it compares but the National Geographic nighttime picture of the world from a few years ago painted North Korea as primitive in comparison.
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Originally posted by ByeBye
The US could whipe out China conventionally and China couldn't do a thing to hurt the US mainland. We could hit them day and night for months and inflict severe damage to them.
The Chinese know this and they are not stupid.
China could destroyed the US economy tomorrow by releasing it's hundreds of billions of USD reserve dollars, without firing a shot.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
China could destroyed the US economy tomorrow by releasing it's hundreds of billions of USD reserve dollars, without firing a shot.
then china would lose "hundreds of billions of dollars", and destroy their best customer, (50% of China's exports go to the USA), they are not as stupid as you think they are.
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The Newest Nuclear Village Idiot award goes to.......
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f125/RedTop1/kim-jong-il-755013.jpg)
Kim sends his deepest regrets for not being here to accept this award....But he is currently testing a rather large bomb right now and can't be distubed from his new toy. He sends hugs and kisses(especially to the younger crowd;) ) and Thanks all the members of the UN who didn't have the nuts to stop him years ago
Accepting on his behalf will be the Future Village Idiot from the U.S.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f125/RedTop1/topmast_hillary.jpg)
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Originally posted by john9001
then china would lose "hundreds of billions of dollars", and destroy their best customer, (50% of China's exports go to the USA), they are not as stupid as you think they are.
No they wouldn't. They would make a killing at being the first to drop their USD reserves and pick up currencies from countries that they actually buy stuff from.
Best customer? I guess the US sure is good at taking actual goods off China's hands and giving them pieces of paper in exchange. And getting better at all the time.
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html
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Jesus, I should have paid attention more in History class. Then again, with budget cuts and all we had a coach teach history....sad. Told us that MIA was "Missing in Asia."
Its amazing, I thought we fought those bastards already- thats what Mash is all about right?
And this Iraq thing sure sounds like Vietnam II...you know- below average IQ president from Texas getting us stuck in an unwinnable war...um.
I do remember sombody telling me that often history repeats, and thats why we must study it. Looks like they may have a point.
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There's no way you're from Florida. *ducks* ;)
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Iraq/Vietnam = Apples/Oranges
We're not losing 100 guys KIA a week in Iraq. And I've got friends that have died over there, so I feel comfortable saying that. The enemy has no political ideology other than revenge. We're not losing material over there like we did in Vietnam. Vietnam spending was so high that it created high inflation and nearly wrecked the American economy. For all the protests about the war, on the men and material side, its been a relatively cheap one. The only similarity they have to each other is that they are/were both "winnable".
Personally, I hope the economic interdependence with China is a factor that dissuades them from ever becoming an enemy. We'll have our hands full on the military front if that happens. Who cares about the trade imbalance when you're facing a country with that type of military potential (see signature).
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Just cause the terrain looks different ...don't let that fool you. Also, our troops don't have nearly the footprint i.e. numbers etc. that we did in Nam - which is keeping total casualties down.
Look at the numbers on a per capita basis. Deaths and injuries/ Personel On the Ground.
Don't forget injuries, advances in medicine and body armour have made this fight one of broken bodies.
Poor soldiers, they deserve better leadership than this. Ironic that a draft doger from Vietnam has given us our second Vietnam.
I work closley with Marines and Navy in my current job, and all but the most hardcore cool-aid drinkers will back everything I have asserted.
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OK,
Comparisons:
Vietnam--Highest Troop Levels in 1968 at roughly 450,000 U.S. forces in country. Losses that year: approx. 14,600 KIA, 87,400 WIA.* That's a 3% KIA rate.
Iraq--Current Troop Level at approx. 125,000 in country. Don't have YTD deaths. But, total casualties since March '03: approx. 2,100 KIA, 22,000 WIA*. Troop levels have fluctuated between approx. 150,000-120,000 in country throughout this period. Dividing total KIA by 3 = 700 per year average = .4% KIA rate.
*DoD Stats
I understand what you're saying--more people in country mean more deaths naturally. But, a "per capita" rate doesn't count here, because we're talking about people's lives. It doesn't matter how many get killed, their have equal worth, regardless of percentage. We're spending a much smaller amount of youth and treasure on this one.
We're drifting off topic a bit, partly my fault. IIRC there's something like 400 million military aged males in China. We don't have enough bombs or bullets in the current inventory to deal with that type of military potential, nor do I believe the industrial potential to match theirs. And no one in the world is going to let us just turn either country into a nuclear wasteland. Fighting China or N Korea (or possibly both at the same time?) will be no cake walk, despite our technological advantage. 400 hi-tech aircraft versus 2,200 obsolescent aircraft--I say advantage to the obsolescent aircraft. And, I know we have more than 400 hi-tech aircraft, but for a fight against China, where you going to base 'em? Kadena AB in Okinawa doesn't have enough ramp space. MCAS Futenma in Okinawa doesn't have enough ramp space--not that either Okinawa field would last that long. Guam--lots of airborne refueling from there. Japanese airbases would last only a little longer than Oki. The only real advantage we have IMO is with Blue Water Navy. And I'm not sure that it would be decisive.
BTW Choocha, where do you work?
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Japan already has a formidable defence force. Its not nuclear, but its no paper tiger.
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On Okinawa, the JDF has (1), I repeat (1) HAWK battery protecting the port facility at White Beach. There's (1) squadron of F4's at Naha. Its not a matter of the quality of the JDF. Its all about the quantity of the Chinese, and the slime with respect to the N Koreans.
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I'm a defense contractor...thats all I want to say. We got guys in my office flying back and forth to Iraq every day. We had one hit by an RPG (not directly). He survived, he would not have in NAM. Again, look and the number of WOUNDED in your figures.
We are spending 9 billion a month in Iraq. The DoD is trying to cut or delay everying it can to pay.
We should let the Japanese buy the remainder of the F-22 production run- the portion that was cut to pay for the Iraq war.
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Air Force:
Fighters
F-15J/DJ (225)
F-4EJ (70)
F-2A/B (62)
F-1 (45)
Recon / Electronic warfare
RF-4E/EJ (42)
E-2C AWACS (20)
E-767 AWACS (4)
Navy:
Kongo class destroyers (4 in service) *AEGIS DDs*
Atago class destroyers (2 under construction)
Haruna class destroyers (2 in service)
Shirane class destroyers (2 in service)
Tachikaze class destroyers (3 in service)
Hatakaze class destroyers (2 in service)
Murasame class destroyers (9 in service)
Takanami class destroyers (5 in service)
Asagiri class destroyers (6 in service)
Hatsuyuki class destroyers (11 in service)
Ishikari class destroyer escorts (1 in service)
Yubari class destroyer escorts (2 in service)
Oyashio class submarines (9 in service)
Harushio class submarines (6 in service)
Yushio class submarines (2 in service)
Abukuma class destroyer escorts (6 in service)
Naval Fixed Wing Aircraft 179
Naval Helicopters 135
...Not a small force, irregrardless of what may be on Okinawa, and they are capably manned/crewed. They are certainly comparabale to almost any European navy or air force in size or equipment for 2006.
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Can there be any doubt that the Japanese are capable of building a formidable army/navy/air force should they turn their attention to doing so? Let's just keep 'em building cars.
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North Koreans Cross DMZ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15152981/)
And warning shots are fired.
Kim Jong Il, in addition to being at the cutting edge of fashion and hair style, also appears to be a genius,
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Hi Neubob,
Originally posted by Neubob
North Koreans Cross DMZ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15152981/)
And warning shots are fired.
Kim Jong Il, in addition to being at the cutting edge of fashion and hair style, also appears to be a genius,
I'm not sure how much to read into this given that the NKs are constantly breaching the border, sending in spies, kidnapping teams, and so on. They are literally some of the worst neighbors on earth. So I don't know if this latest violation has any direct bearing on the situation or whether Kim's commanders were trying to figure out where the Anti-personnel mines started for their latest map of the defenses on the DMZ.
I have several friends currently guarding the DMZ and whenever they are up there, they are as alert as they can be. The NKs play scarey games, and one is never quite sure whether the latest tunnel or border crossing is in fact the tip of a very big spear.
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(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f125/RedTop1/kim-jong-il-755013.jpg)
"thats hot"
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I wouldnt wish with the ROKs on anyone. Those guys knows how to tear new *******s.
One thing is for sure, the world needs the economy of South Korea a hell of alot more than it needs the millions of starving mouths of the North. Either reunite all into one free Korea or destroy the North before they destroy themselves along WITH south Korea.
Why the hell is everyone waiting for the North to attack first????
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Originally posted by Yeager
I wouldnt wish with the ROKs on anyone. Those guys knows how to tear new *******s.
One thing is for sure, the world needs the economy of South Korea a hell of alot more than it needs the millions of starving mouths of the North. Either reunite all into one free Korea or destroy the North before they destroy themselves along WITH south Korea.
Why the hell is everyone waiting for the North to attack first????
we should bomb the hell outta them
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Its an interesting debate regarding NKs conventional military, a lot of it is unknown, they have not fought a serious war in 53 years, and I have my doubts they would do very well against the ROK, even with no US/Allied help at all. I know they boast a "million man army", but that wouldn't be the first time that turned out to be somewhat hollow. Nuke question aside, of course. With no Soviet $ money propping them up, their military has shrunk in real fighting power since the 1980s I think. There is also the question of sustaining an army in the field. They may be more afraid of a military confrontation than the ROK is.
Japan is more than capable of expanding their military, just as any country is. Right now they spend @ 6 percent GDP on the SD Forces. They are a wealthy country with a lot of technological knowhow and industry.